Post by: Nick DiMola on October 31, 2007, 08:19:22 AM
Why is preordering becoming a standard for this industry? I believe this directly links gaming sites who are covering games and giving titles exposure to the gaming crowd direct power over the sales of a particular game (See Halo 3). Essentially we have created a system in gaming where any writer can spam his opinion and it will literally control the fate of the product. Why the hell is this happening? The big game carrier Gamestop is using Joe Shmoe casual gamer out there who preorders games as the representative of the gaming mass.
How do we fix this issue, how can we as gaming enthusiasts push the industry into stocking games(smaller budget) properly without relying on the casual gamer's preorders to determine the fate of a game? Preordering is an unnecessary step in purchasing a game and it ultimately pads the pockets of these big companies allowing them to make money on your invested cash. I refuse to put money down on a game unless I am getting something out of doing so.
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 08:39:31 AM
I think with pre-orders, we basically blame Gamestop's profit move, and all retailer profit motives to begin with. They don't want unsold stock on shelves, so they can probably reduce their financial risk greatly by UNDER-ORDERING the occasional game instead of over-ordering most games, and thus they can use pre-orders to gauge the demand for games better and allow them to adjust their shipment orders downwards in many cases.
Also, there's the increasing push from retailers like Gamestop to sell used games, and extra brand new titles available do nothing to help this profit stream.
... but now that we know that brick and mortars are to blame for this, we shouldn't take it too hard on them. They;re corporations intent on making money, it should be expected. We can't simply lay blame on them, label Gamestop the great Destroyer, and expect anything to come of it: they'll continue to do what they do until the economic reality makes them change, the same economic reality that's making them use the pre-order system to the detriment of small publishers right now.
Basically, I don't see much of a way out pre-order game market dynamic until the games business model changes, and games can be sold under a more consignment-like business plan with less risk for the retailer (aside from shelf-space, of course)... or there's always the possibility of brick and mortar stores being ultimately marginalized once we move to full download distribution...
Until then, I plan to keep pre-ordering third party games at Gamestop... and pre-ordering the rest of my stuff at Familyvideo.com...
Edit: In fact, didn't Nintendo have to sell the NES and its games in toy stores under a deal similar to consignment? That if stock didn't sell, Nintendo would have to buy it back from the store? Or did Nintendo just have to account for any official price drops that happened?
Yup, to get the NES off the ground Nintendo actually had to risk buying back its own stock:
Quote
They called the US. version of the Famicom the 'Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)', and designed it to look less like a videogame console and more like something that would fit in with other home entertainment appliances. Nintendo took steps to make the system seem like a computer or a VCR. Nintendo even agreed to buy back all unsold inventory in order to get retailers to take a chance on them.
Post by: UncleBob on October 31, 2007, 08:49:19 AM
Post by: vudu on October 31, 2007, 08:52:10 AM
QuoteYou have to realize that the industry was in a completely different place in the mid-eighties. After Atrai completely crashed everything retailers weren't willing to stock products they didn't think consumers had much interest in unless Nintendo took away the risk. It's completely unnecessary today.
Originally posted by: Kairon
In fact, didn't Nintendo have to sell the NES and its games in toy stores under a deal similar to consignment? That if stock didn't sell, Nintendo would have to buy it back from the store? Or did Nintendo just have to account for any official price drops that happened?
Yup, to get the NES off the ground Nintendo actually had to risk buying back its own stock:Quote
They called the US. version of the Famicom the 'Nintendo Entertainment System (NES)', and designed it to look less like a videogame console and more like something that would fit in with other home entertainment appliances. Nintendo took steps to make the system seem like a computer or a VCR. Nintendo even agreed to buy back all unsold inventory in order to get retailers to take a chance on them.
The entire concept of preordering is stupid. If you want my money early you have to make it worth my while by giving me a discount or a freebie. No other retailer judges demand for games on preorders. No other industry judges demand for anything on preorders. Fight the man; if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. I'm sick of your complacency just as much as I'm sick of mine.
Can I get a Hell Yeah?
Post by: UncleBob on October 31, 2007, 09:04:46 AM
Quote
. After Atrai completely crashed everything retailers weren't willing to stock products they didn't think consumers had much interest in unless Nintendo took away the risk. It's completely unnecessary today.
This is exactly what's going on right now - Retailers are unwilling to stock products they don't think consumers want (because they haven't been preordered or have no similar previous sales data). If a company was willing to take away that risk, perhaps retailers would be more willing to order newer games.
The movie industry is set up this way. Every week, we get *crap-tons* of new release movies in. Even smaller-scale movies (like, say, some from the Masters of Horror series). In two-to-four weeks, we typically get to send them back if they haven't sold. Give us that option with video games, and you'll see more of a variety of video games on the shelves.
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 09:05:05 AM
Also, yeah, I know that the NES was a completely different situation, but I'm just saying that retailers are right now almost enemies to game publishers, and you have to get past them SOMEHOW. I guess that this is why digital distribution is sooo desirable in plenty of ways for content providers.
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 09:08:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Hell no.Quote
. After Atrai completely crashed everything retailers weren't willing to stock products they didn't think consumers had much interest in unless Nintendo took away the risk. It's completely unnecessary today.
This is exactly what's going on right now - Retailers are unwilling to stock products they don't think consumers want (because they haven't been preordered or have no similar previous sales data). If a company was willing to take away that risk, perhaps retailers would be more willing to order newer games.
The movie industry is set up this way. Every week, we get *crap-tons* of new release movies in. Even smaller-scale movies (like, say, some from the Masters of Horror series). In two-to-four weeks, we typically get to send them back if they haven't sold. Give us that option with video games, and you'll see more of a variety of video games on the shelves.
Wow really? Then it might be beneficial if we could transition to this business model! I mean... the main thing that publishers and developers are always fighting for is shelf space, and if they really believe that getting their product on the shelf will result in success, then they should be willing to risk buying back unsold product.
Besides, they can still use that unsold product and leverage it in secondary markets, bundle them together, sell them through alternative discount services, etc.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on October 31, 2007, 09:12:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Besides, they can still use that unsold product and leverage it in secondary markets, bundle them together, sell them through alternative discount services, etc.
DVDs are already a secondary market in the movie industry, though. The movie itself should have already made money in the theaters, and they can use that performance to gauge demand for the DVDs. Video game publishers don't have that luxury, and if you think they're averse to risk now, just wait until they have to face the risk of eating the cost of hundreds of thousands of unsold copies.
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 09:18:02 AM
Post by: Pale on October 31, 2007, 09:30:33 AM
People shouldn't preorder games to help small developers.
Game stores should stop sucking to help small developers.
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 09:34:48 AM
Post by: vudu on October 31, 2007, 10:44:39 AM
Can I get a Hell Yeah?
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 10:48:46 AM
Post by: bustin98 on October 31, 2007, 10:56:08 AM
Screw pre-ordering. The gamestore gets to sit on the pre-order money collecting interest while I twiddle my thumbs hoping the game doesn't get delayed. If I got a discount for pre-ordering then I would.
Imagine Gamestop sitting on a million Halo3 pre-orders at 5 bucks each. I'd like a piece of the interest payment on 5mil.
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 11:03:55 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on October 31, 2007, 12:26:53 PM
Preordering is such a crappy system anyway because you never know if you will have the disposable income come release date to actually buy the game. If you don't buy it within x amount of time they sell the copy you preordered, but they had no problem holding your cash and making money on it for 8 months. Total BS.
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 12:37:00 PM
Or do you begrudge me for pre-ordering through that indie site? Would it make you feel better if you knew that online pre-orders through them involve no money down?
Post by: UncleBob on October 31, 2007, 01:13:15 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2007, 01:22:02 PM
Is amazon good at getting you the game on launch day? Shipping makes the games more expensive than retail though...
Post by: Mashiro on October 31, 2007, 01:23:11 PM
Post by: vudu on October 31, 2007, 02:37:11 PM
QuoteI just want to point out that my copy of GH3 shipped from FamilyVideo on Saturday (day before release) and it arrived on Monday. I couldn't have been happier.
Originally posted by: Kairon
Familyvideo.com will NEVER get the game to you on time, because they ship it cheap, for 99cents, taking about a week to get to you.
Also, I must point out the irony that after my last post in this thread I went to Target and preordered Mario Galaxy. It took two clerks and two managers to finally figure out how to do it. I was halfway amused and halfway annoyed. Then when I got back to my car I noticed that the preorder card said it wasn't to be sold after 10/28/07. Oh well.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 31, 2007, 04:27:20 PM
I hate the system, and really, there should be a law against preorders, giftcards, and silly things that nature, to prevent customer fraud, among other things.
Also, GameStop sucks.
Post by: oohhboy on October 31, 2007, 08:28:35 PM
The pre-order system is potentially useful for both sides of the counter, but it has been uselessly used as a hard statistic.
Although it doesn't help that the entire chain is garbage.
Post by: Nick DiMola on November 01, 2007, 12:19:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, don't worry Mr. Jack! I'm intent on shifting almost all my game purchases to familyvideo.com... in fact, a bulk of my November purchases are ALREADY slotted for that location!
Or do you begrudge me for pre-ordering through that indie site? Would it make you feel better if you knew that online pre-orders through them involve no money down?
I would say supporting other suppliers is a much better thing to do. Gamestop is far too large and actually is able to make a difference in the industry. By not endorsing them or their preorder system you are doing the right thing. Not that Gamestop is some evil establishment, they are just too powerful and control too much of the market which is to the detriment of the gaming industry.
Perhaps these companies can be held to some sort of standard where they guarantee a certain number of copies of their game will sell and anything that doesn't will be recalled. This would probably greatly limit the amount of shovelware out there and fix the supply and preorder issues. Two birds, One stone.
Post by: SixthAngel on November 01, 2007, 11:29:19 PM
I disagree with you point about gaming sites and the writers having so much pull. I think the writers of gaming sites are generally impotent. Look at the DS and to a much lesser extent the Wii. Every site said the DS would fail and it was a "stopgap" but what they said meant dick. I think most sites did the same thing with the Wii but tried to disguise it more because of how absolutely incorrect they were about the DS. Most gaming sites hype games that the big companies want them to as part of the advertising. They get access to these games at special events, they make a big deal of it because the companies do. They are basically an extension of the PR campaign even if they like to think of themselves as independent. Games that get tons of attention on game sites are therefore the biggest games and the sequels that have the biggest PR campaign outside of the gaming sites as well. They are the games the company sees as the best and biggest. The gaming sites are just another tributary that adds to the hype of the next big game, always going with the flow. This is not to say the they have absolutely no pull but imagine how movie reviews would change if the reviewers suddenly had to suck up to the big companies to get the "exclusive." They certainly wouldn't be what they are now.
Post by: UncleBob on November 02, 2007, 03:08:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PartyBearQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Besides, they can still use that unsold product and leverage it in secondary markets, bundle them together, sell them through alternative discount services, etc.
DVDs are already a secondary market in the movie industry, though. The movie itself should have already made money in the theaters, and they can use that performance to gauge demand for the DVDs. Video game publishers don't have that luxury, and if you think they're averse to risk now, just wait until they have to face the risk of eating the cost of hundreds of thousands of unsold copies.
The issue here is, even in their primary market, movies are "Pay per View". Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a theater shows a movie and no one buys any tickets to that showing, then the theater doesn't pay anything for it (aside from the lost screen time). The theater also gets to decide how long they want to show the movie (i.e.: how long it stays on the "shelf"). Therefore, there is no guarantee that a movie will have made money in theaters (See Gigli).
Post by: Kairon on November 02, 2007, 07:31:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PartyBearif you think they're averse to risk now, just wait until they have to face the risk of eating the cost of hundreds of thousands of unsold copies.
Well maybe the impetus should rest on the game makers to create games that won't come back?
... hmm... this is a toughie because whatever happens, GAMES ARE TOO RISKY FOR ALL INVOLVED. Consumers, retailers, developers and publishers, all undertake exorbitant amounts of risk in the videogames industry, and perhaps this is why people are saying the system is as screwed as it is.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on November 02, 2007, 08:33:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
The issue here is, even in their primary market, movies are "Pay per View". Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a theater shows a movie and no one buys any tickets to that showing, then the theater doesn't pay anything for it (aside from the lost screen time). The theater also gets to decide how long they want to show the movie (i.e.: how long it stays on the "shelf"). Therefore, there is no guarantee that a movie will have made money in theaters (See Gigli).
The point wasn't just that they've already made money, but that they have an indicator for expected DVD sales that is useful for evaluating risk.
Post by: Kairon on November 02, 2007, 08:38:37 AM
Post by: UncleBob on November 14, 2007, 03:58:49 AM
Quote
Okay - here's my TRU story.
I preordered, because I wanted the coin and the Gift Card was enough to push me into getting it.
Mind you, I've never seen the physical ad - just read about the Gift Card on here. I don't get the Sunday paper - and even if I did, ours doesn't have a TRU ad in it.
So, either Friday or Saturday, I call the TRU to find out when they expect the game in. Person told me Tuesday.
We got our copies in at WalMart on Monday, so I called back Monday afternoon and was once again told that they would have it on Tuesday - except this person told me that they would have it when they opened. Nice. This person also went into detail about the Gift Card deal. Thus, I had assumed they knew what they were talking about.
Now, each time I called, I got their automated system, waited about 5-ish mins for someone to pick up, asked to be transfered to the R-Zone, then waited about 5 more mins for someone to pick up.
So, yesterday morning, I didn't call before going to Toys R Us. My mistake.
My "local" Toys R Us is about an hour drive away. Drove over there (got there around 11:30-ish. Nothing. So I went and ate, checked out a few other stores, then went back in about 1-ish. Still nothing.
Well, a friend and I were driving to another town with a TRU that evening (about 3 hours from this store, 2 hours from where I live), so I asked if it'd be possible to somehow transfer my pre-order to the other store, since I'd already wasted the gas to go there once (and with the price of gas being what it is...)
I asked to speak to a manager. Took the guy a good 20 mins to finally get over there (they were relativly busy, so I understand) and the assistant I spoke with was a real jerk. He took no responsibility for the employee who told me they'd have the game when they opened (apparently, a lot of customers were told that, according to kid behind the counter who I first spoke with). All he would do is say "Our ad says it's 'Guaranteed by 5 PM'." That's fine and dandy, but I had never actually seen the ad before he showed it to me just then - and besides, the employee *told* me they'd be in, Tuesday, at open.
Well, the Assistant tells me that they can't transfer a reserve or pre-order *at all*. I ask for the number to corperate and he gives me 1-800-ToysRUs.
So, I call 1-800-ToysRUs. Tell them my story. Customer rep on the phone is very apologetic, tells me to do the following: Ask to speak to the store manager. He can see if they have the games in and are just holding them for the 5 PM release. If that is the case, he should go ahead and sell me one, as I had pre-ordered it and drove an hour to get it. If they did *not* have the game in stock, the store manager should be able to call the other store and, if they had an extra copy of the game, have them reserve it for me.
Went back into the store and spoke, again, with the assistant manager. Waited in line behind two people who were having completely different issues and the same assistant was just as rude and unhelpful to them. When he got to me, he gave me this "go to heck" look and I asked if the Store Manager was in. No. Do you know when he'll be in? No. (?!?). Okay, thanks.
So I called the other store myself, asked to talk to their store manager, explained my story and that manager (dunno if she was actually the store manager or not) said she'd be happy to hold me a copy - except they had gotten their copies in at 10 that morning and had already sold out. I thanked her for her time (and apologized, as I should have just asked if they had any copies in before going into my long winded story.).
So I run down to the McDonald's and get me a cup of Sweet Tea and drink it. Come back to the TRU about 2:30 to check one last time if they'd gotten it. They hadn't. Well, I had to leave town to meet my friend so we could start our trip.
Well, I get up early this morning (after getting in late last night) to call the Toys R Us and see if they got the game in. I have to be at work at Noon, so I'd have just enough time to get over there, get the game, come back and go to work. Thank God I called first (and waited on hold for about 30 mins). No, in fact, they *still* didn't get the game in. All this after the Assistant Jerk Manager told me they'd have it by 5 PM Tuesday and kept showing me the ad. Part of me wishes I *had* just drove over there, so I could throw a huge hissy fit (and some glitter).
Anywhoo, I asked about the "Guaranteed by 5 PM Tuesday" part and was told that "things happen". Still no apology.
Called the 1-800-ToysRUs number again and I'm not going to let up on this.
Don't sell me a "PreOrder", make me wait 3+ days later than everyone else to get it, tell me I can get it at two different times, neither of which I can actually get it, make me drive an hour out of my way to get it, "Guarantee" it another time, be a jerk to me, then don't even apologize to me *at all*.
And for the record, I'm not the kind of person who only shops at ToysRUs for deals. Every time I'm in this town, I generally stop by the ToysRUs and have a look around and buy stuff about half the time. I love to stop at TRUs in different towns just to browse (and occasionally buy stuff).
Post by: Pale on November 14, 2007, 04:51:19 AM
Therefore, you can still use the store if you don't like preordering everything.
But man UB. I can't believe Toys R Us stores are so different, as my local one here got tons and tons of copies monday night.
Post by: EasyCure on November 14, 2007, 05:02:26 AM
i pre-ordered mario galaxy at a game stop literally a block away from where i work, so i'd pick it up after work. i called out today so i didnt get my check which means i cant afford the game until i cash my check tomorrow which means with my luck they'll of sold my copy since their policy is to hold pre-orderes for 48 hours.. but anyway my point was..
gamestop called and left a viocemail on my phone. it was a message from charles martinet, who goes into doing his Mario voice and reminds me to go pick up mario galaxy. the message was about 5 mins long, and its awesome! lol
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on November 14, 2007, 05:17:33 AM
The local Toys R Us used to be my first stop for games because the selection was massive and well stocked. Then they changed it into a Geoffery store, and the R Zone replaced the beautiful two and a half aisles of video game paradise. They went from tickets to oversized locked plastic cases, so the massive selection simply didn't fit anymore. I never once bought a game there after the remodel, mostly because they never got anything in on time anymore. Then the new format didn't make enough money, so they closed it a few years back. They could have just changed it back into a cheaper to run normal Toys R Us, but instead there's a garishly painted vacant building for sale down the street from here.
R.I.P. Toys R Us. You are dead to me.
By the way, Kairon had asked whether Amazon was good at shipping preorderd games early. I had a just-in-case preorder of Galaxy at Amazon, and they hadn't even started processing it this morning when I went to cancel it because I already bought it at Target. I did select free shipping, and I don't know how much of an effect that had.
Post by: Nick DiMola on November 14, 2007, 05:21:17 AM
Later that day, I called TRU on my way out of work to see if they got the game. I was put on hold and I waited on hold for as long as it took me to get there.
I love some of the deals TRU offers, but they are just a disaster. The store out in Rochester was about a million times better than the one here in Albany. I guess there is no consistency between TRU stores.
Post by: Pale on November 14, 2007, 06:59:08 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 14, 2007, 07:19:30 AM
So how do they get away with it? Why do they remain popular? I think the reason is because there's not much else like it. Gamestop is a videogame store. It's not an electronic or toy or department store. It's a game store and gamers put up with it because it's the only one. I think we want a game store and it's unforunate that the big game store chain sucks. I think the solution is a competitor that offers a "gamer environment" but doesn't have all the pre-order BS. All this pre-order stuff is because Gamestop has too much influence.
Post by: Kairon on November 14, 2007, 07:31:48 AM
