Post by: Smash_Brother on October 03, 2007, 04:20:07 PM
I know, I know: it's just a game, it's silly and ridiculous to be bothered by polygons interacting with each other.
And I know SSB is about violence at its core, but this is the first time we've seen a move which would, IRL, be indicative of lethality.
Yes, I know there are plenty of sword users in the game and swords are for stabbing and hacking, but the swords are handled in a non-realistic way: Link never impales Mario on his sword then pulls it back, leaving Mario to collapse to the ground.
I realize the implication of death is everywhere in Mario games, but never in a manner as graphic as this.
I have a hard time believing that Miyamoto okayed this. I understand the desire to appeal to older gamers, but making it so you can perform a neck snap on Nintendo's most beloved mascot seems to be a cheap way of doing that.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on October 03, 2007, 05:05:04 PM
Post by: HadesGigas on October 03, 2007, 05:17:31 PM
Post by: Mashiro on October 03, 2007, 05:36:46 PM
Removing his guns were enough and I don't think this is a move that was made to appeal to older gamers. If they wanted to do so they would have left in some real guns with snake.
Nothing major here IMHO.
Edit: Oh . . . and (just to be a jerk) "I realize the implication of death is everywhere in Mario games, but never in a manner as graphic as this.". I dunno . . . have you played New Super Mario Bros.? Bowser's skin literally burns off of his body and becomes a skeleton after you collapse the bridge out from under him and he falls into lava. It's pretty messed up if you think about it.
Post by: UERD on October 03, 2007, 06:25:19 PM
Jim Raynor as a marine is the other third-party character. When he dies, his head pops off and he explodes into a bloody ring of guts and body parts.
Post by: Stogi on October 03, 2007, 06:32:22 PM
I was not expecting to see that!
I've seen far worse things in a videogame. Mortal Kombat had DISMEMBERMENT.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 03, 2007, 09:02:08 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 03, 2007, 09:13:20 PM
(Snake gently lays Mario down, which really does put a huge dampener on the "violent" nature of the move, which I still say isn't snapping his neck...)
Post by: Mario on October 03, 2007, 10:15:50 PM
Post by: Darkheart on October 04, 2007, 12:26:51 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 04, 2007, 12:30:07 AM
Post by: Michael8983 on October 04, 2007, 01:03:10 AM
Besides, I think there's a good chance the move will be removed from the US version and I think it's almost certain the "naked Samus" bit will be.
Post by: HadesGigas on October 04, 2007, 03:20:44 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on October 04, 2007, 03:23:37 AM
The neck snap is kind of disturbing, but I'm guessing you'll barely notice when you're playing the game as it won't be shown at a nice, close angle in slow-mo. I am a little surprised it got past Nintendo so far.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 03:58:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
SPOILERS: Miyamoto doesn't have to okay it, because he has nothing to do with the game.
I would be absolutely amazed if Miyamoto wasn't okaying everything that one of his characters was in.
If he was inspecting Mario and Sonic Olympics for how it handled his characters, why would he not be bothered by something like this?
Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
The neck snap is kind of disturbing, but I'm guessing you'll barely notice when you're playing the game as it won't be shown at a nice, close angle in slow-mo. I am a little surprised it got past Nintendo so far.
I'm hoping it'll be very, very hard to notice, but this actually makes me wonder if Sakurai really did get total free reign of the game and Nintendo has no say on it (which I still can't imagine).
Quote
Snake gently lays Mario down, which really does put a huge dampener on the "violent" nature of the move, which I still say isn't snapping his neck...
That's what he does in TS after breaking a guard's neck: he places them quietly on the ground so as not to alert other guards.
As for the issue, OMG! Mortal Kombat had DISMEMBERMENT?!? REALLY!?
I don't care what other games had as they're not the basis of comparison here. The question is what is appropriate for a SSB game and I don't think this is.
If I want to snap necks, I'll play MGS, but there's a fundamental difference between MGS games and Nintendo's games and snapping the necks of Nintendo characters is just doesn't compute in some fundamental part of how I view and enjoy gaming.
Watching Mario and all the other Smash playables having their necks snapped is going to be unsettling...
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 04, 2007, 04:14:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
That's what he does in TS after breaking a guard's neck: he places them quietly on the ground so as not to alert other guards.
You know, I find it hilarious that I have to mention this at all, but there's really no need to be "not alerting" anyone in an open brawl...Joke move confirmed... =)
Post by: mantidor on October 04, 2007, 04:20:20 AM
But the game still gives me the opportunity to use gigglypuff HE WILL BE IN THE GAME, I DONT CARE WHAT YOU SAY to beat the crap out of snake, to sleep him and humilliate him so I will just ignore this neck thing.
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 04:41:15 AM
Quote
The question is what is appropriate for a SSB game and I don't think this is.
I don't see the big deal and I think it should be left in the game.
::shrugs::
People like to overreact about many . . . many things. IMHO.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 04:53:35 AM
It's ironic because it reminds me of the kind of thing an angsty Sony fan would put in a flash animation to piss off Nintendo lovers.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 04, 2007, 05:15:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
How is it overreacting to not like watching a time-honored gaming icon having his neck snapped?
It's ironic because it reminds me of the kind of thing an angsty Sony fan would put in a flash animation to piss off Nintendo lovers.
Yeah, there are fans that are saying "OMG THIS IS HILARIOUS!!!!! SNAKE ROCKS!". If Sony or a Sony fanboy had done this they would be saying "OMG YOU F*CKING SUCK! DIEEEEEEEE!!".
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 05:41:53 AM
Quote
How is it overreacting to not like watching a time-honored gaming icon having his neck snapped?
I'm sorry I thought Smash Brothers was a FIGHTING GAME in which VIOLENCE happens. I guess I had the wrong game ::rolls eyes::
Again how is this different than getting:
• Hit with missiles
• Blasted with Fire
• Slashed with swords
• Getting hit with cars (see: F-Zero Stage, Earthbound stage)
• Smashed in the face by a fist
• Hit with volts of electricity
• Smashed over the head and driven into the earth because the force of the attack is so strong
• Hit in the face with a baseball bat
Again, overreacting.
Post by: Caterkiller on October 04, 2007, 05:45:56 AM
Post by: LuigiHann on October 04, 2007, 05:56:17 AM
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 05:58:30 AM
Did you own a GC (I know the answer) if so . . . did you purchase Soul Calibur 2?
Cause I seem to remember another Nintendo icon being put into a very violent game with plenty of real life fighting techniques that would kill anyone in real life.
If Nintendo didn't have an issue with that, why would they have an issue with this?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 04, 2007, 05:58:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
How is it overreacting to not like watching a time-honored gaming icon having his neck snapped?
I'm sorry I thought Smash Brothers was a FIGHTING GAME in which VIOLENCE happens. I guess I had the wrong game ::rolls eyes::
Again how is this different than getting:
• Hit with missiles
• Blasted with Fire
• Slashed with swords
• Getting hit with cars (see: F-Zero Stage, Earthbound stage)
• Smashed in the face by a fist
• Hit with volts of electricity
• Smashed over the head and driven into the earth because the force of the attack is so strong
• Hit in the face with a baseball bat
Again, overreacting.
Here's the thing, though. Sakurai has stated that Snake wouldn't be using any of his real world weapons, like guns and knifes, in Brawl and would focus on more unrealistic weapons and moves. If I am not mistaken, they even took the same approach when working on Fox's LASER gun. Clearly, the SSB team thought that Nintendo characters getting attacked by real world weapons and moved seemed a tad too violent and violent and focused on more fantasy when working on Snake's moves.
So I find it surprising that this move made it to the final game. Maybe they are assuming that his the move only does damage it doesn't represent death in any way.
And once more, it IS disturbing to see. It doesn't bug me as much as it bugs S_B but I find it weird how KONAMI kept showing the footage up. I mean, if Master Chief was in the game I would find it insulting if in the footage he was tea bagging Mario or any other character.
Simply put, people are so excited for this game that anyone that says otherwise gets ridiculed. If S_B feels that Snake snapping Mario's neck is not cool then he has the right to say it.
In short, nothing bad can't be discussed as its being stupid, pessimistic or overreacting. And frankly, you are not being a gentleman about it.
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 06:02:48 AM
Just seems very weird that this ONE move is like "aw man that's just wrong, that's stepping over the line!". It's not as if he's blowing Mario's brains out and pissing on his corpse =/
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 06:25:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
I just find it amazing people get disturbed by this, it's bewildering to me when we are clearly inflicting harm in many other ways to these mascots.
Just seems very weird that this ONE move is like "aw man that's just wrong, that's stepping over the line!". It's not as if he's blowing Mario's brains out and pissing on his corpse =/
There's a huge difference between "comic mischief" and "realistic violence", and the ESRB even has classifications just for this sort of distinction.
Everything you listed falls under comic because it's portrayed non-realistically and the character's reactions are likewise comic.
In this case, Snake is visibly breaking Mario's neck. Something like that has NEVER been regarded as "comic". All of the aforementioned can be found in various cartoons from years ago, but I guarantee you'll never find a scene of Sylvester snappy Tweety's neck.
It's no longer "comic" because it doesn't leave the character in a questionable condition: Mario should be dead, and even if he gets up moments later, I still find it unsettling and out of place.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 04, 2007, 06:33:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
I just find it amazing people get disturbed by this, it's bewildering to me when we are clearly inflicting harm in many other ways to these mascots.
Just seems very weird that this ONE move is like "aw man that's just wrong, that's stepping over the line!". It's not as if he's blowing Mario's brains out and pissing on his corpse =/
There's a BIG difference, though. The violence you mentioned earlier is basically fantasy and cartoony violence, meaning that kids can't imitate it because its completely unrealistic.
Its basically the Looney Tunes principle. The cartoons are just as violent, or even more, than some adult programming. Yet they get criticized less because its all unrealistic and in no way imitable. Kids know that if you drop a piano or an anvil on a person they will die, not become short and go up and down like an accordion.
SSB follows the same principle. Even if the characters get hurt by bombs, swords, lasers and other fantasy weapons is all very cartoony. Hell, even the "smashed" animation is ripped out of many a cliched anime. The original SSB even featured extremely cartoony versions of the Nintendo characters.
Snake, on the other hand, uses a move that is proven to be dangerous and lethal and CAN be imitated. Before you say anything, I've seen kids choke other kids so the move is not exactly out of their reach. The move is quite graphic and detailed, so again its very weird a move made it to the game.
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 06:39:03 AM
Quote
meaning that kids can't imitate it because its completely unrealistic.
Yeah I'm sorry, kids definitely can't pick up sharp objects and cut themselves. I forgot that swords don't exist in reality, my bad.
There are moves the can be imitated INCLUDED the whole, you know, violent act of BEATING THE CRAP out of each other. Oh but kids won't punch or kick each other I'm sorry. Continually beating the living sh*t out of someone definitely isn't lethal you're right!
Oh I'm sorry that's right, it's comic so it's ok.
Isn't Mario getting up afterward the same as being comic? I think it is.
The tired argument of Looney Tunes is hypocritical to me as is because honestly, many of those comic antics can be imitated by children.
Talk about hypocrisy.
Edit: I am also fairly certain MANY kids have baseball bats, but I guess they could never smash one of their friends in the face with it . . . I mean that's just unthinkable since it's comic mischief!
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 07:02:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro The tired argument of Looney Tunes is hypocritical to me as is because honestly, many of those comic antics can be imitated by children.
Talk about hypocrisy.
I'm not arguing this "for the children", though if I was a parent I'd have to point out to my kids that what Snake is doing in particular is wrong.
The neck snap bothers me because it's a not comic mischief. There's a reason SSB was based around the idea of characters knocking each other off the screen instead of killing each other.
In typical SSB battles, characters are knocked away, beaten, jabbed with swords, lit on fire and have clear expressions of pain on their faces, true.
But the Snake snap introduces something else to the equation...
It's the fact that characters are being restrained while an execution is being performed on them which irks me. Notice how Mario's arms flail out as Snake braces and actually performs the maneuver?
This is literally the kind of sh*t anti-Nintendo fanboys are notorious for using in their flash animations. I'm frankly surprised that there isn't more of a backlash by the Nintendo community about this.
If Snake can perform a neck break, why not allow Bowser to crush the heads of other characters in his jaws, or make it so DK can use his brute strength to snap spines and bend other characters in half?
Even if they get back up after a moment, it doesn't matter because it's still not in the spirit of the game. A neck-break isn't comedic violence. If you're going to argue that it doesn't matter, then why not have blood? No matter how much Mario bleeds, it never seems to affect him, so why not have it in the game? Why not fatalities? If DK can pull the head clean off his opponents, it shouldn't matter if they just come floating down whole again on a platform a moment later, right?
I don't care if you disagree. An execution is out of place for a SSB game.
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 07:09:08 AM
Quote
I don't care if you disagree. An execution is out of place for a SSB game.
And I don't care how much you think it's out of place for a SSB game. I think it's fine.
As for blood, I wouldn't care if blood was in the game.
I'll bow out of this discussion, I've said my peace.
Over analyze a clip that it being slowed down dramatically all you wish and lament over it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 07:30:58 AM
Post by: Strell on October 04, 2007, 07:48:24 AM
Kick out Snake and replace him with Alan Rickman.
Because then you wouldn't be able to snap his neck, you'd only be able to snape it.
Which is something I'd very much like to see, namely because I have no idea what that entails.
There, I just solved your entire problem, babies.
Oh a real note, I can somewhat understand the neck breaking to be a little...out of place. Others have pointed out that "well there are swords and bombs and mythical creatures who also have swords in the game, and those would hurt people in real life."
Yeah, but there is some measurable disconnect between the two. I don't think anyone is going to fight a giant monkey in real life, especially not one wearing a tie. There's no blue haired swordsmen running around either (save for cosplay nerds, who do not count), and a wealth of the other things in Smash are clearly in the "cartoony violence" category.
However, a realistic (despite how tight his ass might be) human character snapping another character's neck? That's something you could see in real life and be grossed out by it. I realize the same goes for guns and bombs and such, but this is something you have a higher chance of seeing actually happen, and theoretically could happen almost anywhere and at anytime.
So I can see why it might be a little gruesome, considering the game itself is meant to be so over-the-top with comedic-based slapstick. It's kind of like that art by that one (horribly unsettling) guy that draws Mario with super muscles, gross sweat-ridden hair, and stomping on a Goomba, complete with his innards spilling out. It's that kind of abruptness that sort of throws you into a state of "wtf?" for a second.
This also might hearken back to when the 64 version came out in the USA, and all the "realistic hitting" sounds were replaced with bowling-a-strike sounds. I doubt that something like that is residual enough to remain in the discussion, but I did want to point it out.
Post by: vudu on October 04, 2007, 07:50:27 AM
QuoteBecause neither character performs such a move in their own games. It would be completely out of character for Donkey Kong to snap someone's spine.
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
If Snake can perform a neck break, why not allow Bowser to crush the heads of other characters in his jaws, or make it so DK can use his brute strength to snap spines and bend other characters in half?
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 09:34:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Because then you wouldn't be able to snap his neck, you'd only be able to snape it.
(save for cosplay nerds, who do not count)
These both made me LOL.
Your points are very much along the lines of what I mean.
People can be beaten, lit on fire, hit with a bat, etc. and yet these are not necessarily lethal: you can put the fire out, recover from the injuries, etc.
But there's no middle ground in a neck-snap. If your neck is broken, you're generally dead. Everyone Snake uses the move on in MGS is certainly dead, and Snake even exhibits his normal behavior after using the maneuver by lowering the corpse to the ground.
SSB is about comedic violence, and even if Mario jumps back on his feet a second later and smashes Snake off the stage, it doesn't change the fact that he was basically just executed.
Quote
It would be completely out of character for Donkey Kong to snap someone's spine.
Just like it's completely out of character for Mario to be in a game where his neck can be broken.
Post by: LuigiHann on October 04, 2007, 09:59:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
It would be completely out of character for Donkey Kong to snap someone's spine.
Just like it's completely out of character for Mario to be in a game where his neck can be broken.
...
That's not how that phrase works. "Out of character" refers to things that the characters do, like, in the active voice.
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 04, 2007, 10:13:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
As for blood, I wouldn't care if blood was in the game.
THAT I will disagree with, because Smash Brothers has always been about a humble competition between mascots (the losers clapping for the winner at the end of every match, for example)...
Post by: Strell on October 04, 2007, 10:15:11 AM
They are poor losers and end up crying.
Punk b*tches.
Post by: Mikintosh on October 04, 2007, 10:33:32 AM
"I thought that too from from the initial pictures, but in motion I think the move looks different; it now just looks like Snake's "disabling" somebody, which is probably enough to get past the ESRB
...
"Well, I know it's still the same attack; I'm saying that the way it's animated, it just looks like he's choking him...very violently. If you're not familiar with the concept of breaking peoples' necks in such a manner, then the animation (not a selected screenshot) doesn't provide many details and makes it broad enough so it looks like it'd do what it actually does in-game: knock an opponent for a few seconds. If you are familiar...then you should know better not to try. This ain't wrestling, where all their moves are perfectly clear and quite easy to imitate."
And can you guys stop putting up the slowed-down GIF file as representational of how it looks like in game? It doesn't looks as bad in the original video because it goes faster; if you saw a video of a guy getting punched in slow-motion, that'd look worse too.
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 10:54:00 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 11:38:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: LuigiHann
That's not how that phrase works. "Out of character" refers to things that the characters do, like, in the active voice.
Mario's "character" is dictated not only by his personal actions but also by the game environment in which he's placed.
Leon S. Kennedy, for example, is no stranger to having his neck snapped, throat slit, etc.
Mario's games have never placed him in a situation where his spine is severed. The relevance in this case is not that Snake breaks people's necks but that Mario has never had his neck broken (at least certainly not in a Nintendo-made game) and that Mario's neck being broken is about as appropriate as him shooting a hooker since both situations involve Mario in a "mature" interaction. You're performing an M-rated move on an E-rated character.
But beyond ratings, I don't think it's right for Mario, Link, Ike, Samus, etc. to be having a move like that performed on them.
It's no more appropriate than if, say, Family Guy's Quagmire was placed in the game and had a move called "mount". It doesn't matter if it's appropriate for his character if it's fundamentally wrong for his victim.
Post by: Crimm on October 04, 2007, 11:41:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
It's no more appropriate than if, say, Family Guy's Quagmire was placed in the game...
I just threw up.
Post by: ThePerm on October 04, 2007, 11:52:24 AM
Post by: ThePerm on October 04, 2007, 11:54:12 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 12:09:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
If you jumped into a lava pit you would die pretty much instantly, if Mario falls in he bounces like a loony tune.
Yes, hence why they don't show Mario's flesh searing off his body as he burns in agony.
And for the record, I hated how Bowser was burned alive in the lava bit at the beginning of NSMB.
Post by: Mashiro on October 04, 2007, 12:40:14 PM
Quote
And can you guys stop putting up the slowed-down GIF file as representational of how it looks like in game? It doesn't looks as bad in the original video because it goes faster; if you saw a video of a guy getting punched in slow-motion, that'd look worse too.
Mikintosh I think hits on a very relevant point . . . I went back and watched the video multiple times and the whole action occurs in roughly 1.5 seconds. The clip rolled by so fast on my first watch that I actually missed it . . .
So it is an EXTREMELY fast move and unlike the slowed down version you don't really see all the nuances of what's happening to the character.
Post by: Mikintosh on October 04, 2007, 12:48:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
And can you guys stop putting up the slowed-down GIF file as representational of how it looks like in game? It doesn't looks as bad in the original video because it goes faster; if you saw a video of a guy getting punched in slow-motion, that'd look worse too.
Mikintosh I think hits on a very relevant point . . . I went back and watched the video multiple times and the whole action occurs in roughly 1.5 seconds. The clip rolled by so fast on my first watch that I actually missed it . . .
So it is an EXTREMELY fast move and unlike the slowed down version you don't really see all the nuances of what's happening to the character.
Exactly. Also, saying that Snake is breaking someone's neck with that attack is like saying Link is literally stabbing people in the heart with his A move. If the opponent gets up after a few seconds, clearly he wasn't very injured. It's not a "realistic" reaction to if that was attempted in real life, but isn't SSB supposed to be unrealistic?
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 01:22:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
Mikintosh I think hits on a very relevant point . . . I went back and watched the video multiple times and the whole action occurs in roughly 1.5 seconds. The clip rolled by so fast on my first watch that I actually missed it . . .
So it is an EXTREMELY fast move and unlike the slowed down version you don't really see all the nuances of what's happening to the character.
First of all, I watched it in normal speed for the first time and I immediately knew what was happening: Snake does the move once and only once and Mario's head pops to the right. There's only one maneuver that looks like that. There's no non-lethal "disabling move" which happens in a split second that I know of which involves wrapping your arm around someone's throat (if anyone has a link to one, I'd be curious to see it).
If it were a choke, he'd squeeze and hold. If it were a sleeper, he'd do it multiple times, not once, but that's the thing: it's one pop, then Snake places the corpse on the ground, just like in his games.
If it was just his grab+A attack were he kept squeezing multiple times to damage the character until they wiggle out or he throws them, fine. But it quite clearly isn't.
Quote
Originally posted by: Mikintosh
Exactly. Also, saying that Snake is breaking someone's neck with that attack is like saying Link is literally stabbing people in the heart with his A move. If the opponent gets up after a few seconds, clearly he wasn't very injured. It's not a "realistic" reaction to if that was attempted in real life, but isn't SSB supposed to be unrealistic?
Read what I said earlier: when Link hits someone with his sword, they bounce harmlessly off. Is this realistic? No, but that's the POINT of SSB. When Snake snaps a neck, he's restraining a character and basically executing them. That's the problem. It's a moment of very realistic violence in the middle of a cavalcade of comic violence.
Post by: Crimm on October 04, 2007, 01:48:06 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 02:18:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Crimm
What if he just hit the ground, after the move, and sorta bounced back up like nothin happened? Would it be as bad as it looks here, like the corpse of an Italian had been found in Hells Kitchen?
If he Snake popped him and he then broke free and began moving immediately, it would seem a bit less grotesque. A lot of it is the "lay them on the ground like they're dead" motion which Snake does afterwards (not all of it, though).
I'm guessing most Nintendo fans have never played a MGS game and thus have no idea what Snake is actually doing in that scene.
Post by: Mikintosh on October 04, 2007, 02:34:36 PM
QuoteQuote
Originally posted by: Mikintosh
Exactly. Also, saying that Snake is breaking someone's neck with that attack is like saying Link is literally stabbing people in the heart with his A move. If the opponent gets up after a few seconds, clearly he wasn't very injured. It's not a "realistic" reaction to if that was attempted in real life, but isn't SSB supposed to be unrealistic?
Read what I said earlier: when Link hits someone with his sword, they bounce harmlessly off. Is this realistic? No, but that's the POINT of SSB. When Snake snaps a neck, he's restraining a character and basically executing them. That's the problem. It's a moment of very realistic violence in the middle of a cavalcade of comic violence.
But how is it an execution if Mario wakes up after a few seconds? That's not realistic at all, and that's my point. I'm not saying it's an uncomfortable idea to put it into the game, but I think they made it tame enough.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on October 04, 2007, 02:34:49 PM
Post by: Adrock on October 04, 2007, 04:24:58 PM
Quote
And for the record, I hated how Bowser was burned alive in the lava bit at the beginning of NSMB.
I was bothered more by Bowser being Bowser Jr.'s lackey. I friggin' HATE Bowser Jr.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 04, 2007, 04:47:10 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 04, 2007, 05:56:12 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 04, 2007, 06:22:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mikintosh But how is it an execution if Mario wakes up after a few seconds?
It's not the question of whether or not Mario "survives" the neck snap. It's the fact that Mario should never be in a game in which his neck is snapped. Same for any other Nintendo character who regularly appears in games which are E or T.
It's no different than the argument of Mortal Kombat's dismembering fatalities not really being fatalities because the character can be played again next round. Mario can get up right away but he was still just executed.
Post by: Sessha on October 04, 2007, 08:54:15 PM
I am sure they wanted to keep Snake as true to himself without pushing any boundaries. Although with S_B outcry maybe they put a toe over the line. It's all a matter of opinion. And if your talking about Mario remaining true to his character I don't remember him ever whaling on Peach with a baseball bat but then again my memory's a little fuzzy.
Post by: Mikintosh on October 04, 2007, 09:44:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: Mikintosh But how is it an execution if Mario wakes up after a few seconds?
It's not the question of whether or not Mario "survives" the neck snap. It's the fact that Mario should never be in a game in which his neck is snapped. Same for any other Nintendo character who regularly appears in games which are E or T.
It's no different than the argument of Mortal Kombat's dismembering fatalities not really being fatalities because the character can be played again next round. Mario can get up right away but he was still just executed.
But he gets up instantly. How can his neck be snapped if that's the case? You can't remove the action from its context, or there's no point to discussing it
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 04, 2007, 10:13:45 PM
Post by: Michael8983 on October 05, 2007, 01:54:12 AM
Seeing it in a quick and silent GIF image makes it seem pretty violent.
But I bet that 1) it will have a very goofy sound-effect and NOT bone snapping 2) Mario actually goes into the usual Smash Bros sleeping animation immediately after the move (No, I don't suspect he gets up immediately, I assume this is Snake's answer to Jigglypuffs's lullaby). No one dies in Smash Bros, they get thrown off the stage, and even in stamina mode, they're clearly just passed out and breathing - and fun to play soccer with.
Post by: wandering on October 05, 2007, 03:54:27 AM
I also don't think Snake snapping Mario's neck is any more disturbing, or incongruous, than Mario hitting Link over the head with a baseball bat.
Post by: Mario on October 05, 2007, 04:03:26 AM
2. It is, because you see things like people being hit with a baseball bat, lasers, explosions etc. all the time in every cartoon ever, so its impact has been minimalised. You don't see neck snapping anywhere, and I really dont think thats "ok" to expose children to (or anyone).
Michael has a fair point though, we'll have to see it while playing the game to judge its real impact, but I dislike the idea no matter how its 'executed' (haha get it).
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 05, 2007, 06:07:21 AM
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Originally posted by: Mikintosh
But he gets up instantly. How can his neck be snapped if that's the case? You can't remove the action from its context, or there's no point to discussing it
The entire point of SSB is removing action from context, but that doesn't mean the action still isn't what it is.
Both Yoshi and Kirby have moves which, in their respective games, are lethal but the violence is anything but realistic or gruesome. In those situations, the characters immediately get back up afterwards and they're fine, but it doesn't mean they weren't just swallowed or turned into an egg a second ago.
Mario may get up after having his neck broken, but that doesn't mean is neck wasn't just broken.
Also, yes, Snake breaks necks in his games, but he breaks the necks of NAMELESS GUARDS (or guards named Johnny). The same maneuver used to dispatch nameless guards is better not used on Nintendo's beloved mascots.
I'm also wondering how this move will look when used on actual human-sized characters like Link and Ike. It looks somewhat odd on Mario, but something tells me it'll look a lot more like a neck snap on a human sized character.
Post by: Mikintosh on October 05, 2007, 09:31:27 AM
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Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: Mikintosh
But he gets up instantly. How can his neck be snapped if that's the case? You can't remove the action from its context, or there's no point to discussing it
The entire point of SSB is removing action from context, but that doesn't mean the action still isn't what it is.
Both Yoshi and Kirby have moves which, in their respective games, are lethal but the violence is anything but realistic or gruesome. In those situations, the characters immediately get back up afterwards and they're fine, but it doesn't mean they weren't just swallowed or turned into an egg a second ago.
Mario may get up after having his neck broken, but that doesn't mean is neck wasn't just broken.
Also, yes, Snake breaks necks in his games, but he breaks the necks of NAMELESS GUARDS (or guards named Johnny). The same maneuver used to dispatch nameless guards is better not used on Nintendo's beloved mascots.
I'm also wondering how this move will look when used on actual human-sized characters like Link and Ike. It looks somewhat odd on Mario, but something tells me it'll look a lot more like a neck snap on a human sized character.
They have a picture of him doing it on Ike, and it looks about the same. Note with neither Mario nor Ike does Snake turn the head sideways when he does the attack, which is what they do in movies when someone actually breaks someone's neck.
And I'm failing to the see the argument at this point. If it doesn't look like a neck snap, and it doesn't have the results of a neck snap, how can you say it's objectively a neck snap? It's a disabling move, that's it. I honestly don't know how many times I can rephrase this same response, but I'll get out my thesaurus if necessary.
Post by: LuigiHann on October 05, 2007, 09:59:39 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 05, 2007, 07:37:06 PM
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Originally posted by: Mikintosh They have a picture of him doing it on Ike, and it looks about the same. Note with neither Mario nor Ike does Snake turn the head sideways when he does the attack, which is what they do in movies when someone actually breaks someone's neck.
They have Snake holding him, not breaking his neck.
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And I'm failing to the see the argument at this point. If it doesn't look like a neck snap, and it doesn't have the results of a neck snap, how can you say it's objectively a neck snap? It's a disabling move, that's it. I honestly don't know how many times I can rephrase this same response, but I'll get out my thesaurus if necessary.
That's just it: it DOES look like a neck snap, and I'm sure it'll look even more like one on more human characters.
I reiterate: it's a neck snap, and Snake lowers the body afterwards. I've seen it in MGS many, many times.
There's still very much an argument, unless you can somehow convince me that Mario and other Nintendo characters having their neck snapped is fine and dandy.
It's a completely moot point, though. It's in the game so there really is no point arguing it.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 05, 2007, 11:11:07 PM
Mr. Game & Watch would grab Peach's ass during holds. Quite inappropriate.
Post by: tombo125 on October 06, 2007, 02:30:26 PM
Post by: Mikintosh on October 06, 2007, 05:54:55 PM
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Originally posted by: tombo125
In real life, if you hit someone with a baseball bat they will not fly off the ground at all. The fact that in the games that hitting someone with a baseball bat or a sword and they fly away clearly makes the action cartoon like. If someone hits you with a sword, you will not be propelled at all. You will not go anywhere. When Snake snaps Marios neck, it is an accurated description of how it would look in real life. That is where it is crossing the line.
Well, I'd say go back and look at a Bond movie (or if you have the stomach, a Jean-Claude Van Damme flick) and see what it looks like when somebody there snaps someone's neck. Trust me, it doesn't look the same as Snake's attack (again I mention the turning of the person's neck by 90 degrees, which doesn't happen to Mario), and we're just talking about how they do it in movies. I'm sure it's even more different in real life.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 06, 2007, 06:02:30 PM
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Originally posted by: Mikintosh
Well, I'd say go back and look at a Bond movie (or if you have the stomach, a Jean-Claude Van Damme flick) and see what it looks like when somebody there snaps someone's neck. Trust me, it doesn't look the same as Snake's attack (again I mention the turning of the person's neck by 90 degrees, which doesn't happen to Mario), and we're just talking about how they do it in movies. I'm sure it's even more different in real life.
Close enough.
I don't believe for a second that Hideo Kojima actually knows how to snap a neck, but that doesn't change the fact that this is what Snake is doing to Mario, if not for the fact that Snake lays him on the ground afterwards just like he does after killing a guard in a MGS game!
I'm through arguing it. I basically wanted to see if anyone felt the same and there are a few people who share the same viewpoint, but in essence, we're all screwed anyway because it's in the game and they likely won't be changing it now.
Post by: Mikintosh on October 06, 2007, 07:11:38 PM
Post by: Mashiro on October 06, 2007, 08:04:53 PM
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we're all screwed anyway
I can only pray on my next trip to a toy store some young child doesn't mimic the move and kill me . . .
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 06, 2007, 08:27:22 PM
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Originally posted by: MashiroI can only pray on my next trip to a toy store some young child doesn't mimic the move and kill me . . .
I didn't mean screwed in the sense that kids would learn the move but screwed in the sense that it's in even if we don't want it in.
And I'd be more worried that some massive, sweaty Otaku would try the move on me.
Post by: Mashiro on October 06, 2007, 08:34:24 PM
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I didn't mean screwed in the sense that kids would learn the move but screwed in the sense that it's in even if we don't want it in.
Yeah I know =)
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And I'd be more worried that some massive, sweaty Otaku would try the move on me.
That's when you yell "I need an adult . . . I NEED AN ADULT!"
Post by: Dirk Temporo on October 07, 2007, 09:20:07 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 07, 2007, 09:42:57 AM
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Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo They don't really exist. What happens to them is unimportant and means nothing.
The entire basis of this argument is that these characters have attained an iconic status and as such hold a special place in the heart of many of their patrons, MYSELF INCLUDED, who dislike seeing them treated this way.
I don't want to see Mario's neck broken. What's wrong with that concept? It's right up there with not wanting to see the flesh seared off of Link's bones or to see Samus being raped (which is why I stay away from certain sections of the internet). It takes characters who exist in one context and places them in another in which they don't belong.
I don't care if it's Snake's context. This isn't Snake's game: it's Nintendo's, and I don't recall a Nintendo game where breaking necks was an option.
And Mario and I aren't the only ones in this thread who object to the Snake snap.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 09:52:21 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 07, 2007, 10:17:07 AM
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Originally posted by: thatguy
Just like I don't want to see Mario eaten, or burned to death, or drown, or fall off of a cliff, or eat poisoned food, or get crushed or impaled to death. Geez, Mario's been through the worst already. Pay attention: You've caused worse to Mario. You've caused worse to Samus. Link gets the life sucked out of him by re-deads, right? This isn't real life, it's a video game, and in other video games with theses characters, we've seen much worse.
Once again, its not what they do to these characters its how they SHOW them.
When Mario gets eaten they just swallow him in a cartoony way, like in cartoons. It would be graphic if they chew him up and you see blood and guts everywhere. Same with being crushed. He gets flat like a pancake, just like in cartoons. Hell, even when he dies he has two Xs in his eyes, a typical joke in cartoons.
Even if Link's suffered worse deaths they still tone it down. Even if he was burned to death he just flashes red and faints.
Samus just explodes into a white light when she dies, and in the Prime games the screen goes black before we can see anything.
The point is that even if death is presented in the Nintendo games they are not overly graphic to the point where they disturb the player.
I still think that fans are so eager for Brawl that they are more than willing to overlook these things because they care more about playing it. Like S_B said, though, we are NOT the only ones that have noticed this and not everyone is happy to see this.
EDIT: Thinking about it, there MIGHT be a small chance that they will cut the move out of the game. Maybe Japan doesn't care about this, but the US and the ESRB do so if they look at this they might order Hal and Nintendo to either tone it down or take it out completely.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 10:35:18 AM
There's some pretty graphic content in Nintendo games. The re-deads are an excellent example. They literally latch on and suck the life out of you. When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too. In the original Pokemon, there was a ghost tower for the souls of burdened dead pokemon, and that's pretty heavy for a game for young children, considering in battle, Pokemon only faint. Draygon leeches Samus pretty well, also, despite the power suit.
You're being a hypocrite. A bad one at that. You've seen this stuff happen to these characters all the time, and now that it's slightly more realistic, it isn't considered ok? I mean, we already had grabs. Heck, Yoshi even chewed on people in his mouth! That isn't something that appalled you? Cartoons can be more violent than have the stuff out there. Oh, Bugs just shot off Elmer Fudd's head with a shotgun, but it's ok, because it's a cartoon. Well, this is a video game. Snake is going to snap someone's neck. We've seen them shot, falling off cliffs, shocked, burned, sliced, diced, exploded, thrown at with random objects, grabbed, eaten, beaten senseless, and more, so I don't see the problem. This isn't any worse than grabbing someone and slapping/beating them like in Melee.
Post by: LuigiHann on October 07, 2007, 11:39:41 AM
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Originally posted by: thatguy
When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too.
That's a pretty good comparison. Mario's drowning is pretty much exactly as graphic and realistic as this neck snap is.
Post by: Adrock on October 07, 2007, 12:03:42 PM
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Even if Link's suffered worse deaths they still tone it down. Even if he was burned to death he just flashes red and faints.
Some of the things in Soul Calibur II were pretty graphic and sexual. Sophitia, for example, can gut you and perform a throw move where it looks like she sits on your face.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 07, 2007, 12:50:28 PM
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Originally posted by: thatguy
They can't order them to do anything. The game will receive a T rating, and it'll be fine with it. Nintendo censors less and less, and with this game, after the success of Melee, they won't touch a thing.
There's some pretty graphic content in Nintendo games. The re-deads are an excellent example. They literally latch on and suck the life out of you. When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too. In the original Pokemon, there was a ghost tower for the souls of burdened dead pokemon, and that's pretty heavy for a game for young children, considering in battle, Pokemon only faint. Draygon leeches Samus pretty well, also, despite the power suit.
You're being a hypocrite. A bad one at that. You've seen this stuff happen to these characters all the time, and now that it's slightly more realistic, it isn't considered ok? I mean, we already had grabs. Heck, Yoshi even chewed on people in his mouth! That isn't something that appalled you? Cartoons can be more violent than have the stuff out there. Oh, Bugs just shot off Elmer Fudd's head with a shotgun, but it's ok, because it's a cartoon. Well, this is a video game. Snake is going to snap someone's neck. We've seen them shot, falling off cliffs, shocked, burned, sliced, diced, exploded, thrown at with random objects, grabbed, eaten, beaten senseless, and more, so I don't see the problem. This isn't any worse than grabbing someone and slapping/beating them like in Melee.
Look, we may have drastically different views on the subject matter but there's no absolute need to insult me or anyone you disagree with. You bring up some good points but is brought down by the immaturity of your comment.
As for your examples, I agree that those have been featured in the game, but once more, save for Mario's drowning animation, they have been done in a way that isn't overly disturbing or graphic yet still has a presence in the story.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 01:18:42 PM
You say Samus is in a suit, but when we play Super Metroid, we see that all the scientists in the introductory segment were murdered by the Space Pirates. These are civilians defenselessly killed in cold blood. You can see in the cut-scene pictures that these are very old men. Is this ok? Samus kills Draygon, a creature who turns out to be a mother just defending her babies. That's alright, too, I suppose.
Despite what you're arguing, Nintendo games aren't all tulips and sunshine. Even Pikmin, the game that is basically tulips and sunshine exhibits life and death in some amazingly graphic, true-to-nature ways. Everytime I read a detail about Pikmin's enemy and boss fights, or see a video, or play the game, I'm shocked at how these nearly defenseless Pikmin creatures drown, get eaten, or even explode, among things. Is this ok? If it is, yet Snake's actions aren't, doesn't that seem a tad hypocritical to you?
Post by: LuigiHann on October 07, 2007, 01:24:04 PM
Post by: Adrock on October 07, 2007, 01:25:13 PM
Sex issues > Violence issues
Please think of the children.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 07, 2007, 01:45:36 PM
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Originally posted by: LuigiHann
People, people. These are animated trophies fighting for fun. Remember that? They get back up afterward, and they seem to be comrades, ultimately. So clearly, Snake is just pretending to snap Mario's neck. It's part of the sport.
I have to agree about the animated trophies sentiment. Even if we have different views on the subject I think this debate a little too heated for its own good.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 02:11:59 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 07, 2007, 02:39:35 PM
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Originally posted by: thatguy There's some pretty graphic content in Nintendo games. The re-deads are an excellent example. They literally latch on and suck the life out of you. When Mario drowns in his 3D games, it's pretty graphic, too. In the original Pokemon, there was a ghost tower for the souls of burdened dead pokemon, and that's pretty heavy for a game for young children, considering in battle, Pokemon only faint. Draygon leeches Samus pretty well, also, despite the power suit.
Are you serious?
You're comparing an actual killing blow to a "LIFE DRAIN"? Sorry, but the "machine" in "The Princess Bride" isn't a real invention. "Sucking life" is not a realistic means of death, and it sure as hell isn't a method one person can use to slay another (not in THIS lifetime, anyway).
I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything. If Snake can break necks, what's to argue against Quagmire and his "mount" attack?
So what if he looks like he's molesting a character from behind, they're FINE a second later, right?
Post by: wandering on October 07, 2007, 02:51:35 PM
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I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything.
We're all a bit blinded by our love of Nintendo. I love Nintendo, and so have a hard time finding fault with any of Nintendo's decisions. You love Nintendo, and so have a hard time seeing a personification of Nintendo being killed by a personification of Sony.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 07, 2007, 03:00:05 PM
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Originally posted by: wanderingQuote
I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything.
I think everyone here is blinded, a bit, by their love of Nintendo. Me, Bill, and others have a hard time finding fault with any of Nintendo's decisions. You have a hard time seeing a personification of the company you love being killed by a personification of Sony.
A bit? I've seen people glorify and justify some crappy updates in the past. I would say A LOT. Not to belittle anyone, but SSB is the only Nintendo series that gets fans so hyped that the idea of it being flawed is extremely foreign and a nuisance. I know because back in the day when Melee was about to launch S_B's comments bugged me to no end.
I mean, even the possibility of the online matches being plagued by serious lag, something that even the creator himself admitted and apologized for, is foreign for some.
Post by: Mashiro on October 07, 2007, 03:07:15 PM
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I think people are so hyped for this game that they'll see through absolutely anything. If Snake can break necks, what's to argue against Quagmire and his "mount" attack?
It's called a "slippery slope" and it's a fallacy.
I also like how Adrock keeps pointing out SCII. as I did a number of pages back, but I don't think anyone responded to that . . .
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I mean, even the possibility of the online matches being plagued by serious lag, something that even the creator himself admitted and apologized for, is foreign for some.
What was said, if I recall correctly, is that 1v1 matches (2 players battling one another) worked fine but there was some difficulty getting the 4 player battle aspect down. He said nothing about issues of lag plaguing the online play experience.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 07, 2007, 03:13:40 PM
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Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
I mean, even the possibility of the online matches being plagued by serious lag, something that even the creator himself admitted and apologized for, is foreign for some.
What was said, if I recall correctly, is that 1v1 matches (2 players battling one another) worked fine but there was some difficulty getting the 4 player battle aspect down. He said nothing about issues of lag plaguing the online play experience.
From the SSB Brawl website:
"But because this form of communication is greatly affected by the distance between you and your opponent, your brawls may not run smoothly if you’re really far apart—like, for instance, if you’re connecting between Japan and America.
The more distant you are, the worse your connection becomes, and the slower it feels. I apologize, but I hope you understand."
He definitely says there WILL be issues in online mode. While he only mentions that lag will occur if you are playing with people from far away places it doesn't mean that the game won't have issues with online play.
Post by: Adrock on October 07, 2007, 03:14:33 PM
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I also like how Adrock keeps pointing out SCII. as I did a number of pages back, but I don't think anyone responded to that
Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread..... and if it makes you feel better, no one responded to me either (besides you, kind of). Still, I didn't keep pointing it out. I pointed it out twice and really, I just wanted to mention how Sophitia sits on people's faces.
Post by: Mashiro on October 07, 2007, 03:40:22 PM
=)
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He definitely says there WILL be issues in online mode. While he only mentions that lag will occur if you are playing with people from far away places it doesn't mean that the game won't have issues with online play.
He says may and uses american players vs japanese players as an example of being very far away . . . so I wouldn't call that being plagued. If anything he's more just stating an obvious truth. The further you are, the more time it takes for data to be sent over a connection and well you know the rest.
I'm not saying the game is going to play perfect online all the time, I'm just saying it's a little pre-mature to say it is plagued with issues.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on October 07, 2007, 05:13:14 PM
"BAWWWWWWWW I DON'T LIKE SEEING MARIO TREATED LIKE THAT" is not a compelling argument. It's immature and baseless. The fact that you're allowing yourself to be so put off by this says that you need to take a step back and stop taking everything so seriously.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 07, 2007, 05:47:46 PM
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Originally posted by: wandering You love Nintendo, and so have a hard time seeing a personification of Nintendo being killed by a personification of Sony.
Interesting observation, but it's not the Sony personification that matters so much as the fact that it's Mario having his neck broken.
Here's the thing, and something which I largely don't understand: how do the people here be a fan of video games to the point where they post on a Nintendo fansite and yet not take issue with the same thing I've seen done in anti-Nintendo flash animations and comics which are intended to anger Nintendo fans being done in SSB?
My real question is still "Why?". They went out of their way to mention that none of Snake's firearms would be in the game and the intention for that was clearly to keep the game an easy T for teen. So why throw the neck-snap into the game? Nintendo sure as hell didn't NEED the M crowd, and I DEFINITELY hope they're not playing to the "LOOK! SNAKE IS BREAKING MARIO'S NECK! LOLOLOL!!" crowd.
In the grand scheme of things, there was zero need for it so why add it?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 07, 2007, 05:54:12 PM
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Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
The fact that anybody cares so much about this issue is a distinct sign of deep-seated emotional issues. Iconic status doesn't mean sh!t. In the end they're JUST VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS. I mean seriously.
"BAWWWWWWWW I DON'T LIKE SEEING MARIO TREATED LIKE THAT" is not a compelling argument. It's immature and baseless. The fact that you're allowing yourself to be so put off by this says that you need to take a step back and stop taking everything so seriously.
Whoah hold on a sec...
I agree that its silly to get into heated arguments over game characters, but don't forget that these characters have a rich history and a big presence in our lives.
Mario is an icon. He represents everything great about Nintendo and has been in some of the best games ever made. Its because of this that many gamers have grown to love him. So its fair and understandable if some fans don't like seeing getting fiercely attacked by Snake.
That comment's a bit too much don't you think? I mean, to accuse people of having emotional issues because they don't like seeing a character being murdered? That's just being heartless.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 07, 2007, 06:03:56 PM
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Originally posted by: pap64 That comment's a bit too much don't you think?
I like Dirk despite his tendencies, but subtlety really isn't one of his strong suits.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 07, 2007, 06:08:29 PM
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Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: pap64 That comment's a bit too much don't you think?
I like Dirk despite his tendencies, but subtlety really isn't one of his strong suits.
I think he went a bit too far. I mean, if he thinks people that care for a character have issues anyone that LOVES SSB should get shock treatment ASAP.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 07, 2007, 06:24:07 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 06:52:41 PM
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Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: wandering You love Nintendo, and so have a hard time seeing a personification of Nintendo being killed by a personification of Sony.
Interesting observation, but it's not the Sony personification that matters so much as the fact that it's Mario having his neck broken.
Here's the thing, and something which I largely don't understand: how do the people here be a fan of video games to the point where they post on a Nintendo fansite and yet not take issue with the same thing I've seen done in anti-Nintendo flash animations and comics which are intended to anger Nintendo fans being done in SSB?
My real question is still "Why?". They went out of their way to mention that none of Snake's firearms would be in the game and the intention for that was clearly to keep the game an easy T for teen. So why throw the neck-snap into the game? Nintendo sure as hell didn't NEED the M crowd, and I DEFINITELY hope they're not playing to the "LOOK! SNAKE IS BREAKING MARIO'S NECK! LOLOLOL!!" crowd.
In the grand scheme of things, there was zero need for it so why add it?
Now you're changing the issue a little bit. I can answer this one easily, though. What is the main idea behind the gameplay in the MGS series? Stealth. And what is the staple stealth attack? The neck snap. It is Snake's prime attack. It's what he uses the most. He doesn't go into a room with guns a-blaze. He sneaks in behind someone and snaps his or her neck.
Not including the neck snap into the game would be like taking Mario's fireball or uppercut specials. It would be like only allowing Pikachu to use takedown, and not including a single thunder attack. It would be like having Link in the game without the Master Sword. Make sense? These techniques and weapons are as much as a part of the character as the polygons, the voices, and the stages are. Snake would not be Snake without a neck-snapping attack. It just wouldn't be representative of his game. Of course, you could argue that the playable characters don't have to represent the same techniques they exhibit in their original gameplay by mentioning Capt. Falcon, Fox, or Falco. I'd disagree, because their biggest staples are speed, especially in respect to the Captain. With Fox and Falco, both use a reflect, a staple in their gameplay, since Arwings can reflect attacks, and a laser gun, similar to the on foot abilities in StarFox 64. They also jump similarly, with heavy density, just like the game.
Once again, I must stress that this is a big part of who Snake is. Neck snaps are basically Snake's signature move, and it would be disrespectful to Kojima not to include them.
This isn't an issue about Mario, really. Like we've said, we've already seen a pretty graphic Mario death, one that isn't cartoony. Snake can perform the attack on any player in the game, so it means nothing as far as a personal attack on Mario. Why was Mario chosen for the video? Well, Mario is a human-shaped character who we've seen a lot of already in the game. Whoever made this specific video probably chose those staple characters, Mario, Link, Kirby, or Pikachu, and Snape to make it, so nothing extra could be revealed in a shot or a clip.
I agree that you two are over-reacting to this. Yes, it's Mario, our beloved Nintendo mascot, but he's been in worse situations, regardless of if he's been hurt in them. Remember NBA Street 2k5 or 2k6, or whatever they called it? How about that one SSX game? Mashiro and Adrock have been mentioning SCII all throughout the thread. We've seen Link in some pretty violent and sexual situations, beyond the norm, and not too many people were upset then, right?
And no, this move isn't in the game to increase appeal to older kids. Nintendo doesn't cater to any specific audience when they make their games, and neither does Sakurai. This move is there as a symbol of Snake.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 07, 2007, 07:30:34 PM
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Originally posted by: thatguy
Now you're changing the issue a little bit. I can answer this one easily, though. What is the main idea behind the gameplay in the MGS series? Stealth. And what is the staple stealth attack? The neck snap. It is Snake's prime attack. It's what he uses the most. He doesn't go into a room with guns a-blaze. He sneaks in behind someone and snaps his or her neck.
As I recall, I got great use out of the dart gun which is also a stealth device, as well as a silenced pistol, and yet both of those were wisely omitted from the game because they brought too much realism with them, much like the neck snap.
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Not including the neck snap into the game would be like taking Mario's fireball or uppercut specials. It would be like only allowing Pikachu to use takedown, and not including a single thunder attack. It would be like having Link in the game without the Master Sword. Make sense? These techniques and weapons are as much as a part of the character as the polygons, the voices, and the stages are. Snake would not be Snake without a neck-snapping attack. It just wouldn't be representative of his game. Of course, you could argue that the playable characters don't have to represent the same techniques they exhibit in their original gameplay by mentioning Capt. Falcon, Fox, or Falco. I'd disagree, because their biggest staples are speed, especially in respect to the Captain. With Fox and Falco, both use a reflect, a staple in their gameplay, since Arwings can reflect attacks, and a laser gun, similar to the on foot abilities in StarFox 64. They also jump similarly, with heavy density, just like the game.
Where's Mario's Tanooki suit, his spin jump, his winged cap and his ability to ride Yoshi?
Where's Link's energy sword which fires bolts at his enemies when he's at 0% damage?
Yeah, that's right, they're not in the game.
Snake has his cardboard box, which is certainly what he's known for the most (with the first SSBB trailer being evidence of this). No one would complain if the neck snap wasn't in the game.
Also, I remember him more for the Nikita, which is also in the game, not for a move I used on nameless guards who didn't pose much of a threat to me.
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Once again, I must stress that this is a big part of who Snake is. Neck snaps are basically Snake's signature move, and it would be disrespectful to Kojima not to include them.
Kojima doesn't deserve what he's been given already. This is the guy who has been sh*tting all over Nintendo and the Wii every chance he gets, and if the fact that Nintendo fires employees when they complain in blogs is any evidence, Nintendo is NOT the kind of company to take that sort of thing lightly.
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This isn't an issue about Mario, really. Like we've said, we've already seen a pretty graphic Mario death, one that isn't cartoony. Snake can perform the attack on any player in the game, so it means nothing as far as a personal attack on Mario. Why was Mario chosen for the video? Well, Mario is a human-shaped character who we've seen a lot of already in the game. Whoever made this specific video probably chose those staple characters, Mario, Link, Kirby, or Pikachu, and Snape to make it, so nothing extra could be revealed in a shot or a clip.
I'm well aware it won't exclusively be Mario who has his neck snapped, but that's just one more reason I don't want to see it in this game. Snake's neck snap is a move used exclusively on nameless guards who no one is supposed to care about. I KNOW there are bigger Nintendo fans here than myself, and yet seeing the same fate visited upon Nintendo's characters bothers even ME.
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I agree that you two are over-reacting to this. Yes, it's Mario, our beloved Nintendo mascot, but he's been in worse situations, regardless of if he's been hurt in them. Remember NBA Street 2k5 or 2k6, or whatever they called it? How about that one SSX game? Mashiro and Adrock have been mentioning SCII all throughout the thread. We've seen Link in some pretty violent and sexual situations, beyond the norm, and not too many people were upset then, right?
Hypothetical situation: what if it wasn't a neck snap? What if Snake pulled his knife and the implication was that he was plunging it into the back of the character he was holding before lowering the corpse to the ground, with the look of pain on the character's face being obvious? What if he took his pistol, held it to the back of the character's head and fired it before lowering the corpse to the ground with their stunned expression after the gun went off?
There would be no blood shown in either case and the character would get up afterwards and appear unaffected, but would those moves not bother you, either?
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And no, this move isn't in the game to increase appeal to older kids. Nintendo doesn't cater to any specific audience when they make their games, and neither does Sakurai. This move is there as a symbol of Snake.
Again, the box and the Nikita are all the signature he needs. If you ask any random gamer what they remember about Snake, 9/10 will say "the box".
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 08:09:31 PM
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No one would complain if the neck snap wasn't in the game.
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Kojima doesn't deserve what he's been given already. This is the guy who has been sh*tting all over Nintendo and the Wii every chance he gets, and if the fact that Nintendo fires employees when they complain in blogs is any evidence, Nintendo is NOT the kind of company to take that sort of thing lightly.
Sounds like you would find reason to complain, anyways. You need to research the blog issue, you can't go around insulting your bosses and expect no retaliation. These are people you work with every day. It would be like posting hate notes on a school bulletin board and leaving your name on them. Sure, it wouldn't be right in the teacher's face, but it's an accessible place. Kojima has made statements that show the value each platform could have. I believe you're referring to the TV, Movie, and Movie Theater experiences he mentioned, right? In that sense, he was saying that the Wii was a lot more accessible to the public, and more people would spend more time with it, while the other two cost more, but could allow for an increased presentation value for each respective platform. Is this not true? Regardless, it's pretty easy to see that your real issue may not be with Snake's neck snap, but with Hideo Kojima or with Konami.
If you don't want to see Nintendo's characters attacked by good guys, don't buy this game. I know you don't like the series, so maybe you haven't bought Brawl's predecessors, either. Again, these are supposed to be trophies brought to life in a fantasy story and environment. You know all your favorite video game characters aren't real, so I can't see how this is stabbing you so deeply. If you wanted to talk about who the attack is used on, why not several of the game's grabs? Most characters grabs and throws aren't based on much more than Kirby's Suplex ability, really. Isn't it nice to see one added that's based on the original character's abilities and personality?
Hypothetical situation: What if it wasn't the neck snap? What if it was an air-hump and a throw? What if it was eating and stealing a character's power? What if it was turning them into an egg? What if it were hammering someone? There's several attacks these characters perform that get used on countless generic goons, and stops them in one hit. The beauty is that it shows all of the characters are much tougher than the average goon. Mario gets back up. You can break out of the egg shell. When Kirby swallows you, you don't just disappear. When the ice climbers hit you with a hammer, you don't just vanish. It shows you that these heroes aren't nameless figures, that they can dish and they can take.
As far as the knifing and the gunning, I'd like to point out that Smash Bros. has never featured piercing attack that work like piercing attacks. The swords are more like Wiffle Bats, aside from sounds. The closest thing there is to a piercing attack are the beam sword and the paper fan. So, in effect, Snake's knife would just slice right through you, and you'd get back up, it wouldn't be much different than a standard beam sword attack, except he held you still in the process. There's no precedence of a piercing projectile attack, so odds are, I would not be comfortable with that. With the neck snap, there has been a lot of history of grabs and throws in the Smash games already. I mean, every character can grab, and every character has at least four throws. Cpt. Falcon and Ganondorf have a fifth one, too. This is a lot like that. Are you upset about Bowser's down throw? The one where he body slams his opponent and it looks like he's raping them? I hope so, you should be. In fact, you should go make an angry topic about it right now. That shouldn't happen to Peach. She's a woman of royalty and should keep her dignity, right? Oh, wait, you're holding a double standard. Sorry, I forgot.
Post by: Mashiro on October 07, 2007, 08:26:35 PM
For chirst sake can ANYONE address what I said (and Adrock) said like 4 pages back?
Here it is in bold . . . just so everyone can see who is having a sh*t fest over this neck snap thing:
SOUL CALIBUR II
Where, in which, our beloved mascot Link can be slicked and diced QUITE realistically (most of the fighting styles and move sets are based upon real martial arts styles) and in fact his chest can be run right through with a sword when Mitsurugi's self sacrificing attack is executed.
Did Nintendo care then? No . . . no they did not. So why should they care about a move which, in total, lasts 1.5 seconds on screen where in which tons of other actions are occurring?
Also, are we gauging how big of a Nintendo fan you are by how offended you are by this move? Cause I've been a Nintendo gamer since the age of 4, the first game I played was Super Mario Bros., I love Mario, I love Nintendo and it's various franchises yet this does not bother me in the least.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 07, 2007, 08:49:46 PM
You can continue to speak for others, ignore several of our points, over-dramaticize the issue, and alter the point of discussion whenever we make a solid point, or you can at least admit that there is good reason for the attack to be in the game, and that it should not be taken as an offensive gesture toward Nintendo and Nintendo's characters.
I do agree that the attack does not have to be there, that it is not necessary for Snake, but I also believe that it is a solid piece of Snake's character, and was a great choice to be included in the game. I don't believe it goes overboard, especially since we see a number of attacks that kill normal enemies from several other characters.
Post by: Adrock on October 07, 2007, 08:59:17 PM
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My real question is still "Why?". They went out of their way to mention that none of Snake's firearms would be in the game and the intention for that was clearly to keep the game an easy T for teen. So why throw the neck-snap into the game?
I dug this up from when Brawl was first revealed May 10, 2006:
"We thought a lot about what to do with Snake and his moves in Super Smash Bros. Brawl," said Sakurai. "As you all know Snake walks around with a gun, but with Super Smash Bros. I didn't want to bring in a lot of real weapons. So that was a real challenge. But conversely, if we could use things like rocket launchers and other explosives, not only would that be fitting for Snake, but it would work for the other characters. But who knows. Maybe Snake will exclusively use explosives throughout the game."
Grenades are just as, if not, more dangerous than guns albeit far more uncommon in households. How is something that kills more fitting for Smash Bros. than something else that kills? Sakurai opted against real-life firearms and by his own admission, it was because it wouldn't work with other characters. They could've added guns and still gained a Teen rating. Ubisoft pulled it off with Red Steel. There are guns in Smash Bros. whether they shoot lasers or bullets is irrelevant because the guns look like guns and shoot things/people which is what guns do.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on October 07, 2007, 10:07:59 PM
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Originally posted by: pap64
That comment's a bit too much don't you think? I mean, to accuse people of having emotional issues because they don't like seeing a character being murdered? That's just being heartless.
I think that if you are so attached to a character that you raise a ruckus about it, even on the Internet, you have some issues.
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I like Dirk despite his tendencies, but subtlety really isn't one of his strong suits.
Yeah, I still like you despite this as well.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 08, 2007, 04:43:58 AM
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Originally posted by: thatguy Kojima has made statements that show the value each platform could have. I believe you're referring to the TV, Movie, and Movie Theater experiences he mentioned, right?
He also called the GC a purple handbag and I'm sure has made other jabs at Nintendo over the years that I've missed.
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If you don't want to see Nintendo's characters attacked by good guys, don't buy this game. I know you don't like the series, so maybe you haven't bought Brawl's predecessors, either.
I've played SSB64 + Melee for a combined 1200-1300 hours, actually.
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Again, these are supposed to be trophies brought to life in a fantasy story and environment.
Yes, which is why the neck snap doesn't belong in the game.
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Hypothetical situation: What if it wasn't the neck snap? What if it was an air-hump and a throw? What if it was eating and stealing a character's power? What if it was turning them into an egg? What if it were hammering someone?
It's not the attack, it's the reaction. Mario's arms flail out when his neck is snapped as though he's actually having his neck broken, and I frankly don't look forward to seeing what it looks like when performed on all of the other characters as well.
All of the ones you listed don't show the characters reacting in a realistic fashion. If you clubbed Mario in the face with a hammer and he stood there clutching his face, screaming in agony, then there'd be some merit to this argument, but you're completely sidestepping the point I was making which is that there's a gigantic difference between real and fantasy violence as well as how the character reacts to it.
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There's no precedence of a piercing projectile attack, so odds are, I would not be comfortable with that.
...Just like they're no history of characters breaking each other's bones or performing execution maneuvers, hence why I'M not comfortable with it.
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Are you upset about Bowser's down throw? The one where he body slams his opponent and it looks like he's raping them? I hope so, you should be. In fact, you should go make an angry topic about it right now. That shouldn't happen to Peach. She's a woman of royalty and should keep her dignity, right? Oh, wait, you're holding a double standard. Sorry, I forgot.
No, because Bowser's down throw is him falling on his opponent and they come comically popping out as he squeezes them out between him and the ground. Furthermore, Bowser isn't raping anyone, but Snake is DEFINITELY snapping necks. If Bowser landed on them and performed a few thrusts first, ok, I'd definitely agree, but what he's doing is something wrestlers have been doing for years.
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SOUL CALIBUR II
...Is not made by Nintendo. Link was a guest in the game and as such has to abide by the rules of the universe he's been placed in. The same should go for Snake.
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Grenades are just as, if not, more dangerous than guns albeit far more uncommon in households. How is something that kills more fitting for Smash Bros. than something else that kills? Sakurai opted against real-life firearms and by his own admission, it was because it wouldn't work with other characters. They could've added guns and still gained a Teen rating. Ubisoft pulled it off with Red Steel. There are guns in Smash Bros. whether they shoot lasers or bullets is irrelevant because the guns look like guns and shoot things/people which is what guns do.
Explosives have been a comedic element for years. Hell, the Mario universe even has its own little amusing explosive called a "Bob-omb".
Also, there's a difference between a high teen and a low teen and when guns are firing, the game has to have "Realistic Violence" added to the list which appears on the box.
But a neck snap is, IMHO, more real BECAUSE of the reaction the characters have to it. Laser blasts hit characters and knock them in the air, bombs explode and knock them around, swords hit and they bounce back...all of this is comedic violence, and in the middle of that, Snake breaks a character's neck as their head jerks to the side, their arms flail and they have an expression of pain on their face. It's an unwelcome bit of realistic violence in the middle of piles of fantasy violence, and I don't think it belongs in there.
We should probably just drop this. I'm pretty certain neither side is going anywhere.
Post by: LuigiHann on October 08, 2007, 05:39:12 AM
Can somebody post a slowed-motion animated gif of Link stabbing Mario, and Mario's reaction?
Post by: Adrock on October 08, 2007, 07:42:50 AM
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...Is not made by Nintendo. Link was a guest in the game and as such has to abide by the rules of the universe he's been placed in. The same should go for Snake.
And Link is still a Nintendo character. If Nintendo had a problem with Link or any of their other characters being portrayed in a certain way, it wouldn't happen in any game their characters appear in.
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Explosives have been a comedic element for years. Hell, the Mario universe even has its own little amusing explosive called a "Bob-omb".
So have guns! I'm pretty sure someone has already mentioned Looney Toons. Elmer Fudd has shot Daffy Duck innumerable times which has resulted in his beak being blown off or repositioned on his face.
Post by: vudu on October 08, 2007, 07:56:12 AM
QuoteActually, no; Link kept his projectile weapons, something no other character in the game had.
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Link was a guest in [Soul Caliber II] and as such has to abide by the rules of the universe he's been placed in. The same should go for Snake.
Post by: tombo125 on October 08, 2007, 08:05:20 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 08, 2007, 09:07:22 AM
Post by: Mashiro on October 08, 2007, 09:51:40 AM
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Its not relevent to this discussion as I see it.
Of course it is relevant.
When people are saying how Nintendo would "never" let such violent actions happen to their character it is completely relevant because clearly they didn't mind in the case of SCII. It's perfectly relevant.
Proving evidence to support ones claims is a good way to have a discussion, at least that's what I think.
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makes much more sense than anybody getting their neck broken in SSB.
I guess some people thought a trained killer being added into Brawl meant hugs and kisses for all the other characters.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 08, 2007, 09:56:07 AM
Post by: tombo125 on October 08, 2007, 11:32:00 AM
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Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
Its not relevent to this discussion as I see it.
Of course it is relevant.
When people are saying how Nintendo would "never" let such violent actions happen to their character it is completely relevant because clearly they didn't mind in the case of SCII. It's perfectly relevant.
Proving evidence to support ones claims is a good way to have a discussion, at least that's what I think.
About the bold, I never said that and I agree with you about it. Soul Caliber is only one example.
I am only talking about Snake breaking necks in the context of Super Smash Brothers.
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makes much more sense than anybody getting their neck broken in SSB.
I guess some people thought a trained killer being added into Brawl meant hugs and kisses for all the other characters.
I just think it is strange to take out guns and knives but leave in breaking necks. Can we at least agree on that? I personally find breaking necks to be worse that guns or knives.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 08, 2007, 11:47:52 AM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro Of course it is relevant.
No, because SC is a game designed around realistic violence and swordplay and SSB is a game built around cartoony violence and general silliness. I don't understand how this continues to escape you.
It'd be like Monty Python throwing a sad, dramatic skit into the middle of one of their shows: it just doesn't fit.
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When people are saying how Nintendo would "never" let such violent actions happen to their character it is completely relevant because clearly they didn't mind in the case of SCII. It's perfectly relevant.
Which game was Mario executed in? I don't recall that happening in any of his deaths in Mario 64.
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Proving evidence to support ones claims is a good way to have a discussion, at least that's what I think.
This is the kind of thing a $2,000 defense attorney would cry out in court in an attempt to mislead the jury.
You want evidence?
1. Mario and the majority of the characters in SSB have never been in a game where their neck or any bones were implied to be broken.
2. SSB is a game which revolves around cartoony violence. A neck snap classifies as realistic violence.
3. Nintendo wanted to minimize the amount of realistic violence by omitting Snake's firearms.
Ergo, the neck snap doesn't fit into SSB.
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I guess some people thought a trained killer being added into Brawl meant hugs and kisses for all the other characters.
Stop putting words into the mouths of others, and stop taking something said and turning it into a bizarre absolute.
Just because I think Snake's neck snap is excessive and doesn't belong in the game doesn't mean I thought he'd run around handing flowers to the other characters for all of his A moves.
I think you should actually argue people's points via counterpoints, not make obtuse references that have no relevance and then declare your opposition of being a bunch of blithering idiots.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 08, 2007, 11:54:23 AM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on October 08, 2007, 12:00:48 PM
Anyway, I'm not convinced that violence or thinking of the children have anything to do with leaving out realistic guns, based on Sakurai's wording.
Post by: Mashiro on October 08, 2007, 01:17:07 PM
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No, because SC is a game designed around realistic violence and swordplay and SSB is a game built around cartoony violence and general silliness. I don't understand how this continues to escape you.
It isn't escaping me because it remains cartoony. What is escaping you, my friend, is you keep saying "Mario is being executed". He isn't. He isn't being killed.
Hence, why this falls into the realm of being unrealistic and cartoony. Just as dropping an anvil in a Looney Tunes cartoon yields the person/animal hit in a dazed state as opposed to killed.
Mario DOES NOT DIE. He may sleep or he may bounce back up, but he's not dead.
If Snake does that move each time and says "goto sleep" or a wacky sound effect happens would that make you feel better?
It's still unrealistic and cartoony without that because, again, the party having his/her/it's neck snapped isn't dying. They are just going to sleep and will be back up again in a moments notice to fight again.
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Which game was Mario executed in? I don't recall that happening in any of his deaths in Mario 64.
When did I mention Mario 64? I mentioned Soul Calibur II and Link being put in harms way and in situations which very real and potentially deadly maneuvers are done to a Nintendo mascot/icon. You keep saying how you have a hard time believing Miyamoto or Nintendo would let this in the game and happen to one of their characters, and I keep telling you they have put another one of their characters already in such a violent game, that game is Soul Calibur II.
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This is the kind of thing a $2,000 defense attorney would cry out in court in an attempt to mislead the jury.
You want evidence?
1. Mario and the majority of the characters in SSB have never been in a game where their neck or any bones were implied to be broken.
2. SSB is a game which revolves around cartoony violence. A neck snap classifies as realistic violence.
3. Nintendo wanted to minimize the amount of realistic violence by omitting Snake's firearms.
Ergo, the neck snap doesn't fit into SSB.
1. Where does it say their neck or bones are broken or implied at being broken? Again you keep taking the move out of context. If they character is just sleeping and bounces back up and is fine then where does it imply that they have broken bones or a neck? There is no neck snapping sound or anything so if the character just goes to sleep and pops back up fine then what's the big deal?
2. SSB is a game which revolves around characters fighting and using trade mark moves and abilities against one another.
3. *See Partybears comment above as that makes perfect sense to me*
Ergo, the neck snap fits into SSB perfectly as it is a reflection of Snakes character.
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Stop putting words into the mouths of others, and stop taking something said and turning it into a bizarre absolute.
Just because I think Snake's neck snap is excessive and doesn't belong in the game doesn't mean I thought he'd run around handing flowers to the other characters for all of his A moves.
So what do you want Snake to do then? Have absolutely no moves from his franchise? Please do tell.
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I think you should actually argue people's points via counterpoints, not make obtuse references that have no relevance and then declare your opposition of being a bunch of blithering idiots.
I have, and so have others and you fluff them off. You said Nintendo would never allow this to happen to their characters and are acting as if a Nintendo character has never been put in such a violent situation. You've said this multiple times throughout this forum and I counted with Soul Calibur 2.
Oh and . . . with the whole "This is the kind of thing a $2,000 defense attorney would cry out in court in an attempt to mislead the jury. "
Yeah, I'm not the one who is founding an argument based on a clip that is slowed down DRASTICALLY from what the actual in game footage is like.
Talk about misleading.
Thanks for putting words into my mouth by the way, where did I call/declare any of you blithering idiots? I would call you a sensationalist but not a blithering idiot.
Edit: Furthermore, good sir, "stop taking something said and turning it into a bizarre absolute", says the person who equated this to having Quagmire from family guy in the game and humping the characters.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 08, 2007, 01:29:01 PM
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Ergo
Mashiro you lose the whole debate by using that term!
Post by: that Baby guy on October 08, 2007, 01:36:24 PM
Post by: Sessha on October 08, 2007, 02:06:34 PM
Why people have been bringing up Soul Calibur is that Nintendo has no problem putting a nintendo character in "realistic" danger. Why should Mario get preferrential treatment? Snake can get beat to hell just as much as anyone else. He twists Mario's neck but in no way does this kill him. It portrays a death if it were happening in the real world. So would getting hit with a baseball bat. It would be violent if Mario were to lay there the rest of the match ne'er to get up again. After the initial attack there is no lasting damage that you can see.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 08, 2007, 02:25:58 PM
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Originally posted by: Sessha
I don't see how your gun arguement is relevant, they could have omitted that for any number of reasons.
What other reasons?
Sakurai has stated that the reason they cut out Snake's guns and knives was because of the realism factor. Hell, they even took the same approach with Fox's laser gun.
And just so you know, Snake was in Dream mix TV (a SSB clone fighter done by Hudson Soft and Konami) and according to his move list he doesn't use guns and knives either, so clearly there's a general agreement that in lighthearted fighters like SSB Snake shouldn't be using any of his real world weapons.
Once again, we are talking about cartoony, slapstick violence versus realistic violence. Using guns would fall under the realistic violence category.
Also, forgetting the whole issue, wasn't anyone a tad bothered by the fact that Konami proudly displayed the neck snap on their conference?
Post by: Mashiro on October 08, 2007, 02:38:04 PM
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Using guns would fall under the realistic violence category.
But what about Looney Tunes using guns! Double standards! Zoinks!
Also Fox never had a realistic gun did he?
Post by: Sessha on October 08, 2007, 03:10:55 PM
It's not realistic violence if there is no realistic repricussion. Yes it's slapstick to hit someone with Peach's frying pan, but that's not imitatible?
If I concede that snake shouldn't use any real weapons what makes him distinguishable from any other character? There's already a mine in Smash, Samus has a missle. Snake needs an anchor point so people can tell that it's snake.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 08, 2007, 04:05:07 PM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro
I wasn't bothered by it.Quote
Using guns would fall under the realistic violence category.
But what about Looney Tunes using guns! Double standards! Zoinks!
Also Fox never had a realistic gun did he?
Even the guns were used on a cartoony level. Bullets were never shown and characters that were shot at had a comical effect afterwards, like the face turning black or in Daffy's case his bill would be blown off. And just so you know, guns have been edited out of some Looney Tunes cartoons, especially when they are used to imply suicide or a more realistic effect (like pointing it at their heads and fainting afterwards). They kept it uncensored for the collector's set but when they air them on channels like Boomerang and Cartoon Network they use the censored version.
And even if Fox never had a realistic gun they did work hard on developing it so that it produced a sci-fi effect than a violent one.
Look, like S_B stated earlier this discussion is going nowhere. Its abundantly clear that neither side will budge and that no matter our feelings about it the neck snap is still in the game.
Post by: Mashiro on October 08, 2007, 04:21:08 PM
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Even the guns were used on a cartoony level. Bullets were never shown and characters that were shot at had a comical effect afterwards, like the face turning black or in Daffy's case his bill would be blown off. And just so you know, guns have been edited out of some Looney Tunes cartoons, especially when they are used to imply suicide or a more realistic effect (like pointing it at their heads and fainting afterwards). They kept it uncensored for the collector's set but when they air them on channels like Boomerang and Cartoon Network they use the censored version.
Bullets were shown speeding through the air on many occasions . . . and in Space Jam Porky and one of the other characters shoot realistic current days guns to blow out someone's teeth (try this kids at home! as bender would say . . . lol)
For the censorship, it just shows how overly sensitive society is to certain things. What the kids from years ago are any different from the kid today?
**Time for a Looney Tunes thread!**
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 08, 2007, 04:31:44 PM
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Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
Even the guns were used on a cartoony level. Bullets were never shown and characters that were shot at had a comical effect afterwards, like the face turning black or in Daffy's case his bill would be blown off. And just so you know, guns have been edited out of some Looney Tunes cartoons, especially when they are used to imply suicide or a more realistic effect (like pointing it at their heads and fainting afterwards). They kept it uncensored for the collector's set but when they air them on channels like Boomerang and Cartoon Network they use the censored version.
Bullets were shown speeding through the air on many occasions . . . and in Space Jam Porky and one of the other characters shoot realistic current days guns to blow out someone's teeth (try this kids at home! as bender would say . . . lol)
For the censorship, it just shows how overly sensitive society is to certain things. What the kids from years ago are any different from the kid today?
**Time for a Looney Tunes thread!**
No one, not even hardcore Looney Tunes fans, acknowledge Space Jam as a real Looney Tunes film. And that scene was a lame attempt at injecting pop culture into the LT franchise.
Post by: Mashiro on October 08, 2007, 04:36:01 PM
Gotcha . . . we should just apply the same thought to Super Smash Bros!
No one, not even hardcore Nintendo fans really consider Snake to be a real part of the Smash Bros. universe. And that move of his is a lame attempt of adding references to a game franchise that's primarily on another system.
Wasn't that easy?
Case closed =D
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 08, 2007, 04:51:50 PM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro It isn't escaping me because it remains cartoony. What is escaping you, my friend, is you keep saying "Mario is being executed". He isn't. He isn't being killed.
Breaking a neck is an execution maneuver, and we've established that, yes, he gets up afterwards, just as Leon is back in one piece when you load your last save and Sub-Zero is still in the character select screen even though he was brutally murdered three seconds ago.
An execution move shouldn't be part of a SSB game. I know you don't mind blood, but there has to be a line somewhere? Where is it? I don't care if the character gets back up. I don't want to see Nintendo characters wince in pain as Snake performs an execution on them. It doesn't matter if they get up moments later.
And FYI, Snake has been in a fighting game without his *GASP* precious neck snap even though it was half created by Konami, imagine that!
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It's still unrealistic and cartoony without that because, again, the party having his/her/it's neck snapped isn't dying. They are just going to sleep and will be back up again in a moments notice to fight again.
It doesn't matter if Mario gets up. The act was done. I'm not saying "OMFG MARIO IS DEAD!!" over here. I just find it grotesque and out of place.
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When did I mention Mario 64? I mentioned Soul Calibur II and Link being put in harms way and in situations which very real and potentially deadly maneuvers are done to a Nintendo mascot/icon.
Link is a naturally more violent character, but aside from that Link isn't Mario, Yoshi, DK, Peach, Bowser, Lucas, etc.
And for the 3rd time, SSB isn't SC. They're different games, and when Link was placed in the game, I'm quite certain Nintendo understood that the game would up the ante a bit in terms of violence and they were ok with it.
But SSB is designed from the ground up to NOT be a game filled with realistic violence. The premise of the game even involves knocking characters off the screen so it can sidestep the usual violence revolving around beating each other into submission. Why change a working formula now?
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You keep saying how you have a hard time believing Miyamoto or Nintendo would let this in the game and happen to one of their characters
I said it once or twice, but it's far from the crux of my argument. I AM surprised that Shiggy's shining star, Mario, is being subjected to something like that. Miyamoto doesn't cross me as the type who could watch Mario having his neck broken and just shrug it off.
Frankly, this isn't about Miyamoto. It's about ME. I find it out of place and gratuitous for a SSB game.
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1. Where does it say their neck or bones are broken or implied at being broken? Again you keep taking the move out of context. If they character is just sleeping and bounces back up and is fine then where does it imply that they have broken bones or a neck? There is no neck snapping sound or anything so if the character just goes to sleep and pops back up fine then what's the big deal?
First of all, we haven't heard what noise the move actually makes.
Second, I've played MGS games: that's Snake's neck snap. He does EXACTLY those motions in the MGS games after he executes a guard.
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2. SSB is a game which revolves around characters fighting and using trade mark moves and abilities against one another.
And yet Snake doesn't break necks in a game Konami made with Hudson. Wasn't a "trademark" enough move for even Konami. Fancy that...
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3. *See Partybears comment above as that makes perfect sense to me*
That's fair, but I honestly don't care how Nintendo sees it. I see it as gratuitous and unnecessary, and yes, as I've established I don't expect it to change.
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Ergo, the neck snap fits into SSB perfectly as it is a reflection of Snakes character.
Except that even Konami doesn't see it that way...
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So what do you want Snake to do then? Have absolutely no moves from his franchise? Please do tell.
I love the Nikita, the box, the mines and his martial arts moves. That's already more than a number of characters got. Why isn't it enough?
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You said Nintendo would never allow this to happen to their characters and are acting as if a Nintendo character has never been put in such a violent situation. You've said this multiple times throughout this forum and I counted with Soul Calibur 2.
For the last time, no I'm NOT. I'm saying that the level of realistic violence of a neck snap doesn't belong in a SSB game. I don't care what the hell happens in SCII.
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Oh and . . . with the whole "This is the kind of thing a $2,000 defense attorney would cry out in court in an attempt to mislead the jury. "
Yeah, I'm not the one who is founding an argument based on a clip that is slowed down DRASTICALLY from what the actual in game footage is like.
I already said earlier, when I FIRST saw the clip in NORMAL speed, I was stunned that they'd let it in the game but at first I didn't think much of it. After it sank in, it began bothering me.
And don't try to play the victim here: you've been incredibly confrontational this entire time.
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Edit: Furthermore, good sir, "stop taking something said and turning it into a bizarre absolute", says the person who equated this to having Quagmire from family guy in the game and humping the characters.
That's not a bizarre absolute, it's an extreme example, but not a bizarre absolute.
A bizarre absolute is when I suggest the neck snap is excessive and you say, "SO YOU THOUGHT A HIRED MERCENARY WOULD BE HUGGING AND KISSING EVERYONE?!".
I'd be like me replying to when you said you wouldn't mind blood in SSB by saying, "SO YOU'D LIKE TO SEE ALL OF NINTENDO'S CHARACTERS VICIOUSLY MURDERED?!".
Post by: Mashiro on October 08, 2007, 05:30:46 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 08, 2007, 05:41:43 PM
Post by: Adrock on October 08, 2007, 07:04:46 PM
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But SSB is designed from the ground up to NOT be a game filled with realistic violence. The premise of the game even involves knocking characters off the screen so it can sidestep the usual violence revolving around beating each other into submission. Why change a working formula now?
Stamina mode. And I don't think you can use this as a valid point. The KO's in Smash, to me, were a gameplay choice rather than Nintendo/Hal sidestepping violence. Violence isn't something you can avoid in a game where the characters are wailing on each other. It's also hard to ignore the death scream that every character makes when they're knocked out. They're screaming out in pain after falling to their deaths.
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And yet Snake doesn't break necks in a game Konami made with Hudson. Wasn't a "trademark" enough move for even Konami. Fancy that...
Dude, you're comparing Super Smash Bros. Brawl to DreamMix TV World Fighters... Which game's developer do you think put more effort into creating a deep and enjoyable game? I'll give you a hint: it rhymes with Duper Dash Grows Drawl.
And Snake's move list from DreamMix TV World Fighters only includes 2 "trademark" moves: his 3-hit combo (also in Brawl) and the C4 bomb. Snake didn't even have the cardboard box. Your point doesn't really hold up here. The game was made of utter failure. It seems to me that Konami/Hal didn't really put much thought into the characters. So, sure Snake was in another fighting which didn't have the neck snap, but apparently 99.99999999999999999999999% of Snake's moves weren't "trademark" enough to be put into the game.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 02:12:26 AM
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S_B you truly are the king of double standards and you don't remember some of your posting point trying to prove your argument for this. That's all I can really say.
I will change my argument as new ideas and evidence come into focus. I thought about it and I don't care what Nintendo or Miyamoto sees as acceptable for their characters so I stopped suggesting that Nintendo wouldn't allow it in the game.
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Originally posted by: Adrock Stamina mode. And I don't think you can use this as a valid point. The KO's in Smash, to me, were a gameplay choice rather than Nintendo/Hal sidestepping violence. Violence isn't something you can avoid in a game where the characters are wailing on each other. It's also hard to ignore the death scream that every character makes when they're knocked out. They're screaming out in pain after falling to their deaths.
Except that they're not always falling when they scream. I always imagined the premise was that videogame characters cease to exist when they go off the screen. It's like "death" for them in the same way not believing in them is death for certain deities.
If you believe that the characters are plummeting to a grisly demise or being impaled on a spike somewhere off screen, that's your business.
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Dude, you're comparing Super Smash Bros. Brawl to DreamMix TV World Fighters
Yes, because they both include Snake in fighting games and I've been hearing incessantly about how the neck snap is a "trademark move" so it would stand to reason that in a game which KONAMI ACTUALLY WORKED ON, Snake would have his precious trademark neck snap if anyone in power at Konami actually considered it either trademark or precious.
But quite clearly they do NOT and as such this reaffirms my point that the neck snap is completely unnecessary for capturing the essence of Snake's character and even Konami agrees.
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And Snake's move list from DreamMix TV World Fighters only includes 2 "trademark" moves.
And again, if the neck snap is so much of a trademark, why wasn't it one of those two moves?
Post by: vudu on October 09, 2007, 07:15:13 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 07:21:56 AM
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Originally posted by: vudu
When I get this game the first thing I'm going to do is unlock Snake (if necessary) and then break Mario's neck. Then I'm going to do it again and again. Then every time I play Smash_Brother online I'm going to snap his character's neck repeatedly.
Heh, I knew someone would do that just to spite S_B.
In all seriousness, that will NOT help this out. This is clearly a debate of personal preference. Simply put, S_B doesn't like seeing his favorite character being treated like that. Its understandable if people don't share the feeling (and clearly, people really don't) but I think its unfair to give S_B crap about it. He put up his best argument as to why he feels this way, some agreed with it, others didn't.
So please, enough with the crap, alright?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 09, 2007, 07:24:12 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 07:32:06 AM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I don't understand the problem with Smash's point, personally I can see both sides of the argument on this one. It is a personal preference like Pap said, and it bothered me way before Smash posted this.
The two things that annoy me about it is that its abundantly clear that Snake's character has been toned down twice in order to keep his appearance "PG-13" yet kept an M-rated move and that Konami PROUDLY displayed it like crazy.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 07:45:12 AM
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Originally posted by: vudu
When I get this game the first thing I'm going to do is unlock Snake (if necessary) and then break Mario's neck. Then I'm going to do it again and again. Then every time I play Smash_Brother online I'm going to snap his character's neck repeatedly.
Yeah, I predicted some whiner would jump up and shake his little fist at me with this.
Thanks for volunteering.
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Originally posted by: pap64
In all seriousness, that will NOT help this out. This is clearly a debate of personal preference. Simply put, S_B doesn't like seeing his favorite character being treated like that. Its understandable if people don't share the feeling (and clearly, people really don't) but I think its unfair to give S_B crap about it. He put up his best argument as to why he feels this way, some agreed with it, others didn't.
No, it's fine, really.
This is the kind of reaction you get when no one can actually overturn your argument: anger. I've seen this probably no fewer than a thousand times in the past and I'm sure I'll see it a thousand more.
Post by: Sessha on October 09, 2007, 07:50:08 AM
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Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: vudu
When I get this game the first thing I'm going to do is unlock Snake (if necessary) and then break Mario's neck. Then I'm going to do it again and again. Then every time I play Smash_Brother online I'm going to snap his character's neck repeatedly.
Yeah, I predicted some whiner would jump up and shake his little fist at me with this.
Thanks for volunteering.
I don't see how this is whining. It's spamming a move but not whining.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 07:52:24 AM
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Originally posted by: Sessha I don't see how this is whining. It's spamming a move but not whining.
It's whining because it's derived from angst but has no logical means of recourse via argument.
It's like when someone says, "I got a parking ticket! I'm gonna flip the bird to every meter maid I see!"
Post by: vudu on October 09, 2007, 08:07:33 AM
The move is in the game. It's in there for a reason. It makes a lot more sense than Luigi's Green Missle or any of Sheik's moves (which to the best of my knowledge, never appear in any non-Smash Bros game). The entire basis for your argument is thrown out the window because Mario gets up a half a second after the move is performed. There's no continue required (as in your Resident Evil example) and he's not dead for the remainder of the match (as in your Mortal Kombat example). This isn't a finishing move; it's a special attack that does some damage and that's it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 08:19:32 AM
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Originally posted by: vudu It makes a lot more sense than Luigi's Green Missle or any of Sheik's moves
Actually, no, those still fall under the "comedic violence" category which makes them fit far better than an execution.
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The entire basis for your argument is thrown out the window because Mario gets up a half a second after the move is performed.
So you'd be alright with the gun to the back of the head execution I mentioned earlier, so long as the character gets up a moment later, right?
We don't need a neck snap in a SSB game. The whole point of the game is that it's a game filled with comedic, light-hearted violence which is completely unrealistic.
Even if the neck snap is pretend, it's still gratuitous and unnecessary. I've shown people that even Konami doesn't see it as a move they wanted Snake performing on other Konami/Hudson characters because they didn't include it in THEIR collaboration game.
So why is it necessary in SSBB for Snake to be performing it on Nintendo's characters?
Post by: Adrock on October 09, 2007, 08:35:35 AM
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Smash_Brother wrote:
Except that they're not always falling when they scream. I always imagined the premise was that videogame characters cease to exist when they go off the screen. It's like "death" for them in the same way not believing in them is death for certain deities.
If you believe that the characters are plummeting to a grisly demise or being impaled on a spike somewhere off screen, that's your business.
You can't see me but I'm rolling my eyes at you. You're taking my points to extremes. The game is still plenty violent, comic mischief or otherwise, no matter how you look at it. Violence is violence. A punch in the face or a slash of a sword have real world implications with or without the presence of blood or bruises. The agonizing death yell of these characters suggests agony in death. Your point, as I saw it, was that Nintendo was sidestepping violence and really, they're not. The characters are all still beating on each other and if applied to real life situations can have very serious consequences.
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Smash_Brother wrote:
Yes, because they both include Snake in fighting games and I've been hearing incessantly about how the neck snap is a "trademark move" so it would stand to reason that in a game which KONAMI ACTUALLY WORKED ON, Snake would have his precious trademark neck snap if anyone in power at Konami actually considered it either trademark or precious.
But quite clearly they do NOT and as such this reaffirms my point that the neck snap is completely unnecessary for capturing the essence of Snake's character and even Konami agrees.
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Smash_Brother also wrote:
Again, the box and the Nikita are all the signature he needs. If you ask any random gamer what they remember about Snake, 9/10 will say "the box".
See, here's where I'm having trouble understanding you. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that the neck snap not being in DreamMix TV World Fighters means that Konami agrees that the neck snap is not a trademark of Snake's character when almost nothing about Snake made it into the game either, including the cardboard box which you admittedly said is what most people remember when they think of Snake.
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Smash_Brother wrote:
Even if the neck snap is pretend, it's still gratuitous and unnecessary. I've shown people that even Konami doesn't see it as a move they wanted Snake performing on other Konami/Hudson characters because they didn't include it in THEIR collaboration game.
I thought I've been very clear on this point. DreamMix TV World Fighters was a clear Smash Bros. knock-off and a bad one at that, receiving neither the time nor the effort that Smash Bros. had. Concerning Snake, the big difference between DreamMix and Brawl is that Hideo Kojima was directly involved with the inclusion of his character in the latter, going as far as to design a stage for Snake himself. Konami signed a sheet of paper allowing characters they own to be used DreamMix, but anyone who thinks that the higher-ups cared for one second how that game turned out or how their characters were portrayed, judging by the quality of that game (or lack thereof), is sorely mistaken/misguided.
Post by: vudu on October 09, 2007, 08:54:41 AM
QuoteIt's quite possible there weren't enough moves for the neck snap to be included. However, Brawl has plenty of moves to spare. They even included the Claymore mines, so if it makes you feel any better you can tell yourself that the neck snap would have been cut before the mines.
he controls for DMTV are a lot different than the controls for SSB - in DMTV, a character only gets 2 directional attacks, 3 jumping attacks, a throw, and a special attack. Snake gets CQC and Claymore mines.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 10:21:21 AM
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Originally posted by: Adrock Violence is violence.
No, it isn't. There's a reason why violence has a subclassification of "Comedic Violence" and "Realistic Violence" in the eyes of the ESRB. How many people would have laughed at the Three Stooges if Moe bonked Curly in the head with a wrench and he started bleeding and crying in agony?
Comedic violence. Turning violence into something less severe by making it not have the same reactions and appearances it would otherwise have. When Snake jerks his arm across Mario's throat and Mario's arms flail around helplessly, then I'm sorry, but we're no longer talking comedic (unless you hate Mario with a burning passion...).
In MGS games, Snake's move is intended to look as though he is breaking the neck of his victim and killing them. The same move in SSBB mimics what Snake does in MGS games. Again, not comedic, doesn't belong.
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A punch in the face or a slash of a sword have real world implications with or without the presence of blood or bruises.
So would being hit by a bomb blast or crushed by a giant ape, but again, the reactions the characters have does not go along with the violence which is why it's comedic and not realistic.
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The agonizing death yell of these characters suggests agony in death. Your point, as I saw it, was that Nintendo was sidestepping violence and really, they're not. The characters are all still beating on each other and if applied to real life situations can have very serious consequences.
That's the whole POINT: this is NOT a real-life situation and it's filled with non-realistic, cartoony violence. Snake snapping necks in the middle of all this is akin to having a water balloon fight and suddenly someone starts throwing rocks. It's raising the bar of violence to a level where it doesn't belong.
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See, here's where I'm having trouble understanding you. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that the neck snap not being in DreamMix TV World Fighters means that Konami agrees that the neck snap is not a trademark of Snake's character when almost nothing about Snake made it into the game either, including the cardboard box which you admittedly said is what most people remember when they think of Snake.
That's what I think of when I remember him, but clearly Konami disagrees with me because THEY didn't think of it for DreamMix. I'm glad the box is in SSBB, but I wouldn't be trying to argue that Snake isn't Snake without any particular move because Snake is Snake because of his appearance and the depth of his character. If you wanted to get technical about it, whittling him down to "Snake isn't Snake without his neck snap." is spitting into the face of all that he actually encompasses.
I could argue that Fox isn't Fox without his Arwing and Marth isn't Marth without his goons (watch the FE anime). Snake was Snake in DreamMix without his neck snap and he'd still be Snake in SSBB without it as well.
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I thought I've been very clear on this point. DreamMix TV World Fighters was a clear Smash Bros. knock-off and a bad one at that, receiving neither the time nor the effort that Smash Bros. had. Concerning Snake, the big difference between DreamMix and Brawl is that Hideo Kojima was directly involved with the inclusion of his character in the latter, going as far as to design a stage for Snake himself. Konami signed a sheet of paper allowing characters they own to be used DreamMix, but anyone who thinks that the higher-ups cared for one second how that game turned out or how their characters were portrayed, judging by the quality of that game (or lack thereof), is sorely mistaken/misguided.
This is a contradictory statement.
Someone at Konami cared enough to get two of his moves into the game. The fact that they chose explosives and martial arts says to me that the neck snap wasn't very high on the priority list.
You can't blame Konami for not giving a crap about how the game turned out and in the SAME BREATH dismiss the fact that two of his trademarks ARE in the game.
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It's quite possible there weren't enough moves for the neck snap to be included.
As the people in this thread have argued time and time again, "SNAKE CANNOT BE SNAKE WITHOUT HIS NECK SNAP!!!!!!"
If that's the case, then why wasn't it included in DreamMix as one of the only two trademarks he has?
To answer a rhetorical question, it's because Snake CAN, in fact, still be Snake without a neck snap, which is why it doesn't NEED to be in SSBB.
I don't mean to sound angry at you for that, vudu, but it's been the crux of many arguments in this thread that Snake somehow isn't Snake without the ability to break necks.
Post by: vudu on October 09, 2007, 10:28:38 AM
EDIT: The crux of most of the arguments I've read isn't that Snake isn't Snake without his neck snap move; it's that the neck snap move fits Snake and therefore is a completely legit move for him to have in Brawl.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 10:30:53 AM
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Originally posted by: vudu
Mario doesn't NEED to throw fireballs in SSBB. He could just do damage by jumping on people.
Dang...fair enough.
You win.
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it's that the neck snap move fits Snake and therefore is a completely legit move for him to have in Brawl.
I'm not arguing that the neck snap violates Snake's character but that it violates the otherwise light-hearted nature of SSB's violence.
Then again, maybe there ARE some more violent moves which we haven't seen yet. Maybe DK's down throw now makes a bone crunching noise and players look like they're being crushed or players can become "stuck" to Bowser's back when he uses it in a move.
Post by: Mashiro on October 09, 2007, 10:36:17 AM
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As the people in this thread have argued time and time again, "SNAKE CANNOT BE SNAKE WITHOUT HIS NECK SNAP!!!!!!"
No one has said that.
Everyone has pretty much said something along the lines of "It's a move that snake performs in his games, hence he has this move in SSBB".
I also greatly enjoy how one fighting game featuring Snake reveals all the moves Snake should ever have in a fighting game ever and reveals how Konami feels about the whole issue.
You know how the creators and Konami feel about the issue? They don't feel anything because there is no issue
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How many people would have laughed at the Three Stooges if Moe bonked Curly in the head with a wrench and he started bleeding and crying in agony?
Worst. Proving. Point. Ever.
Mario isn't crying out in pain. There's no evidence showing Mario's neck is snapping sound wise. And the only time we see those flailing animations you talk about is when you slow the god damn move down 4x's (approximately) and focus solely on that action (how often does that EVER happen?). As others have stated, slow down OTHER characters moves (such as Bowser squashing someone *sorry to whomever made this point I forgot who it was*) and see how the characters reaction is.
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It's raising the bar of violence to a level where it doesn't belong.
In your opinion. Other's clearly don't care.
I think, S_B, you're freaking out too much as if this is going to bring levels of violence to Smash which the world could never even fathom and I just don't understand why.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 12:59:48 PM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro I just don't understand why.
Let me put it this way...
I've enjoyed realistic violence, partaken in realistic violent acts, laughed at realistic acts of violence which others find horrifying and played realistic violent games without ever thinking twice about it. Looking at me and my track record, you'd never in your life think that violence of ANY kind would even begin to bother me.
But the one place where it does irk me is when it's placed into a context where it doesn't belong.
Aside from the fact that Mario is an icon known far and wide, he, Luigi, Yoshi, DK, etc. are all characters who have endured despite the fact that their games do not feature the kind of realistic violence that many of the angsty teenage types desire in their gaming experiences. They stand as exceptions to the rule, not succumbing to the pressure of the mainstream gaming market which so frequently dictates that games which lack that level of violence aren't "mature" enough. It's not uncommon to see franchises start to turn dark and moody simply because of the perception that it'll help them sell better (ie Bomberman 360, Dak and Jaxter's darkening, Prince of Persia, etc.).
Yet the Mario series endures, proving that it can still outsell both Halos with New Super Mario Bros.
Games which attempt to appeal to all ages are basically the last holdout in a market where insecure male teenagers won't buy a game unless the M sticker is on the box, and Mario and co. have always struck me as one of the bastions of the ideal that games don't need to be violent and gruesome in order to be fun and have wide appeal.
The only time Mario is ever involved in any kind of realistic violence has always been in parodies, and the only reason these parodies are funny is because it's so immensely out of place for Mario. In my eyes, when you take that level of violent interaction and put it in an ACTUAL Nintendo game, it's certainly not entertaining.
I understand this opinion seems outlandish and bizarre to others, but Nintendo's fame is basically built upon the principle that their games are what they are and they wouldn't give their characters a darker makeover in an attempt to sell to a market which craves more and more violence and controversy. I've always respected that about them.
For me, when Snake snaps Mario/Yoshi/DK's neck, even if the character gets up a moment later, it's basically spitting into the face of all Nintendo stands for. To have built an empire on the ideal of mascots which are E for everyone and then release a game where you can violently snap their necks just makes no sense.
I do seriously question if they didn't give Sakurai absolute free-reign with the game. Otherwise, it just feels like Nintendo sold out their mascots (something they're practically legendary for not doing) for the sake of a cheap laugh.
Post by: Adrock on October 09, 2007, 02:59:42 PM
If Nintendo and the ESRB board are ok with it, this is really your problem. I know you won't, but maybe, if this is so bothersome, you should boycott the game all together.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 09, 2007, 03:15:25 PM
Look at the Crotch Chop in Mario Strikers. In the game, you literally electrocute other players and characters. I was shocked, and so was the rest of the world, about what happened in there. I've come to terms that Nintendo cares about quality, fun, and authenticity when it comes to games being made with their characters at this point in time, ever since Strikers, too. That's a big reason why this doesn't upset me. We've seen Mario do just as bad, and we've seen just as bad done to him.
Wait, you're ok with the Robot Chicken Mario Kart-Vice City parody? Seriously? And this isn't alright with you? Seriously?
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 09, 2007, 04:07:33 PM
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Originally posted by: Adrock What continues to confuse me is that your argument is still contradictory. The game takes real life violence and makes them unrealistic and cartoony. It begs to reason that the neck snap still fits into that paradigm.
That's just it: it's a NECK SNAP. It doesn't matter what happens after it. There shouldn't be a neck snap in a SSB game.
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Mario gets up, that's unrealistic. Its context is changed to a non-fatal move. I guess what I, personally, don't understand is why all the violence in the game is ok while this one thing isn't. I get what you're trying to say, but I feel that if you're going to make that point, the entire game, as a whole, is the problem, not that one move.
Seeing a mascot as old and loved as Mario having his neck snapped offends me, it doesn't matter what happens afterwards.
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If Nintendo and the ESRB board are ok with it, this is really your problem. I know you won't, but maybe, if this is so bothersome, you should boycott the game all together.
I can't let one thing I disagree with ruin the whole game for me. Besides, my local Gamestop is having a midnight launch AND a SSB64 tourney. The prize for the winner? A copy of SSBB.
I could just hunt Snake players with a vengeance, but I'd rather play as Snake myself and never use the move.
I expect the move is actually his down-throw and since it doesn't bounce the character in the air, I doubt it'll be very useful in combat.
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They're practically legendary for not selling out their mascots? Really?
Yeah, show me the game which got into Mario's "darker side", where he became bitter and angstful about having to collect coins and save the same damn princess over and over again and took a job running drugs with the aspiration of becoming the head of a great family some day.
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Wait, you're ok with the Robot Chicken Mario Kart-Vice City parody? Seriously? And this isn't alright with you? Seriously?
When did I say that? I was using it as an example of how people consider it a point of humor. If Mario wasn't known for being an E-rated character, then no one would make parodies like that.
Post by: Adrock on October 09, 2007, 04:38:32 PM
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That's just it: it's a NECK SNAP. It doesn't matter what happens after it. There shouldn't be a neck snap in a SSB game.
But see, that's my whole point. Link slashing another beloved character is still Link slashing another beloved character. By your own logic, that also should offend you. If it doesn't matter what happens afterwards, then your entire argument about Smash bros. being a lighthearted game with unrealistic, cartoony violence completely falls apart. Link's attack, which, like the neck snap, would be lethal in real world terms and should not be in the game no matter how it's portrayed or what happens afterward. And yet, you keep insisting that every other would-be-fatal-in-real-life move is fair game, but Snake's neck snap attack is not. See how that's contradictory? Based on everything you've said, the entire game, not just that one move, is the problem. You can't separate one thing from everything else in the same category and call foul on it. That's a double standard.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 09, 2007, 05:09:02 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 09, 2007, 05:12:13 PM
Post by: vudu on October 09, 2007, 05:13:35 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 05:14:59 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 09, 2007, 05:15:48 PM
Or will I?
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 09, 2007, 05:24:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: vudu
I said "wow". Totally didn't need to see that. Hope no one I know (and like) gets banned.
I have bets on stevey! Who else is in?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 09, 2007, 05:26:27 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 05:27:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill AurionQuote
Originally posted by: vudu
I said "wow". Totally didn't need to see that. Hope no one I know (and like) gets banned.
I have bets on stevey! Who else is in?
My money's on Mashiro!
Post by: Sessha on October 09, 2007, 05:29:09 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 09, 2007, 05:30:42 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 09, 2007, 05:31:59 PM
"Guys, I just noticed Luigi punches... I don't know about this...!"
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 09, 2007, 05:32:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
Originally posted by: Bill AurionQuote
Originally posted by: vudu
I said "wow". Totally didn't need to see that. Hope no one I know (and like) gets banned.
I have bets on stevey! Who else is in?
My money's on Mashiro!
Haha, I'd say there's a 95% chance that one of us is right!
Post by: stevey on October 09, 2007, 05:33:41 PM
ew ew ew ew ew ew ew
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill AurionQuote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
Originally posted by: Bill AurionQuote
Originally posted by: vudu
I said "wow". Totally didn't need to see that. Hope no one I know (and like) gets banned.
I have bets on stevey! Who else is in?
My money's on Mashiro!
Haha, I'd say there's a 95% chance that one of us is right!
$1 on Infernal Monkey
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
In other words, someone got annoyed at S_B and wanted revenge.
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 09, 2007, 05:37:17 PM
That was totally uncalled for and disturbing. For Pete sakes we have people of all ages that actually come to this site and use our forums.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 09, 2007, 05:38:51 PM
Edit: $1 won't get you any action from me! I charge $3 at the minimum. $4 for the lot.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 05:39:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Dang. Please somebody not only permanban that poster and and duplicate accounts they might have. But Lock and delete this thread.
That was totally uncalled for and disturbing. For Pete sakes we have people of all ages that actually come to this site and use our forums.
Not to mention many of us check the site during work or school...
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on October 09, 2007, 05:39:19 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 09, 2007, 05:39:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: stevey
$1 in Infernal Monkey
You lost a dollar...
Post by: stevey on October 09, 2007, 05:40:06 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 05:40:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
User has been banned, posts have been deleted, please move along. Sorry that we all had to see that, but there's no such thing as an idiot filter.
Thank you!
Any idea who the user was?
Post by: Mashiro on October 09, 2007, 06:16:13 PM
Thanks guys . . .
Edit: As much as I may get heated with ANY discussion I would NEVER stoop to the level of trying to have the thread closed by such means.
Posting on a dupe account any sort of crap is a cowards way of going about things.
Post by: IceCold on October 09, 2007, 07:50:57 PM
QuoteI missed it. What happened?
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Dang. Please somebody not only permanban that poster and and duplicate accounts they might have. But Lock and delete this thread.
That was totally uncalled for and disturbing. For Pete sakes we have people of all ages that actually come to this site and use our forums.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 09, 2007, 09:32:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
Wow I'm really offended people thought it was I who posted whatever the hell was posted here.
Thanks guys . . .
Edit: As much as I may get heated with ANY discussion I would NEVER stoop to the level of trying to have the thread closed by such means.
Posting on a dupe account any sort of crap is a cowards way of going about things.
I WAS kidding you know! I was just having fun with the conspiracy theory idea. At one point I was going to accuse S_B!
Also, I think Nintendo might have heard S_B's cries. Reason for Brawl delay confirmed: removal of neck snap! XD
Post by: Mashiro on October 09, 2007, 09:35:36 PM
*Video games cause violence CONFIRMED!*
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 10, 2007, 02:39:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceColdQuoteI missed it. What happened?
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Dang. Please somebody not only permanban that poster and and duplicate accounts they might have. But Lock and delete this thread.
That was totally uncalled for and disturbing. For Pete sakes we have people of all ages that actually come to this site and use our forums.
Some one posted a very disturbing male nudity pic, and then went through and added very graphic images on the page.
It was really stupid.
Oh, and thanks for the work for deleting the posts, and banning the person.
Post by: couchmonkey on October 10, 2007, 02:48:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceColdQuoteI missed it. What happened?
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Dang. Please somebody not only permanban that poster and and duplicate accounts they might have. But Lock and delete this thread.
That was totally uncalled for and disturbing. For Pete sakes we have people of all ages that actually come to this site and use our forums.
Yeah, now all I can think about is this juicy gossip. Because it's more interesting than Snake.
Edit: Nevermind, funhouse sleuthing shows it was just Goatse, even Snake is more interesting than that.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on October 10, 2007, 04:38:59 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 10, 2007, 06:21:55 AM
And I've already seen goatse and pain5.jpg years ago. Browse 4chan for three minutes and you'll see far worse than that. Apparently the angry spammer didn't even know how to offend properly.
We already knew this discussion wasn't going anywhere so I'm fine with just leaving it.
And honestly, Sonic has turned my head. Snake can go f*ck himself. We have a REAL 3rd party character now.
Post by: vudu on October 10, 2007, 07:28:04 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 10, 2007, 07:31:15 AM
And FYI, I'm sure it wasn't a regular who posted porn. Probably a pissed off lurker who lacked the spine to pitch a real argument.
That's the first time I've been able to push someone to the point where they'd do something like that. It's actually good to know that I have the ability to get under someone's skin to the point where they lash out instead of trying to argue.
Though it does suck that they had to expose a bunch of innocent posters to it instead of having the balls to confront me directly in a PM.
Post by: vudu on October 10, 2007, 07:39:10 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 10, 2007, 07:42:01 AM
