Square's looking for a North American publisher because the PS3 has terrible sales numbers. They want to increase overseas revenue to 50% of overall sales within three years.
First off, Square did this once before. EA published the NA versions of almost every major Playstation Square game. I believe this deal was halted for the merge with Enix, though my timing may be mistaken. Square required this, because The Spirits Within was a total bank-flopping floppy flop.
Now, Square used to commit a ton of games for Sony because of ownershippiness stuffs, but eventually, Nintendo used money funds and GBAs to lure them into "Neutrality" plus Enix loosened the Sony noose. Now, Square does what it wants, apparently appetized by MMO and cell phone droners, too.
So what does SE do? They say they're going to split up support for all three consoles. Which might mean Dragon Quest to the biggest Japanese console, the Wii (which is bundled with money hat funded games, too), experimental action projects for the 360 - since Japan wouldn't buy these games, anyways, and what is considered the most significant series, Final Fantasy, to Square's favorite pimp.
Only the pimp is broke, and SE thought they were clever disguising the main support for Sony, clamoring things were equal and announcing eleventy-bajillion games for Sony products. Now their stuck on the poop deck, apparently. Seriously, though, it didn't take a genius to see the PS3 was really going to be poopy for at least a while, did it? Am I that much smarter than these people? Why don't I own more companies? Why don't they just multi-platform a main-series game for once. Everything I've seen shows that the 360 is actually more powerful than the PS3, anyways, and is easier to program for, too boot.
On a slightly related note, has anyone noticed how retarded devs are at handling spin-off games? The best example is SE right now. "Ooh, let's make games in the same universe all get released on different platforms, kids will love it!" Doesn't that scream stupid? I mean, now, should I want to play everything Kingdom Hearts, for example, I'll need a PS2, a DS, and a PSP. Why use two handhelds? Why not at least make the PSP game for the PS2, also? You won't divide up your userbase that way. What? That takes a lick of business sense? OK, I guess it isn't ok, then. Heck, they did it for Chain of Memories, at least in Japan, right? But, still, that takes thinking.
And then there's the PSP Final Fantasy games. It's like Square either hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates hates Nintendo or they hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate money and happy customers.
I'm not even a big SE fan. The only main FF I own is VI (twice), but geez, they deserve financial troubles if they really are this stupid.
Konami is stupid, too. They went and made several Nintendo handheld Castlevania titles, then announced the remake of a non-North America title on the PSP. Also unavailable to Nintendo fans: Symphony of the Night. Instead, it goes to the PSP (part of the earlier PSP game) and Live Arcade. I understand the whole Live Arcade thing, why not? But to separate the fanbase after you've already been immensely successful on the opposing platform? At list release the game on both, not just the opposite one. Anyone else think this is stupid?
At least Capcom had the sense to call out the low sales volume of Cubes. Sure, we were angry, but Capcom made buckets of money on the PS2 Cube ports. Capcom also doesn't need an American publisher. I wonder if there's a reason why...
Edit: Konami, not Namco. Namco is stupid because Katamari sequels aren't around yet. That's not really something they can help.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 24, 2007, 07:31:25 PM
I find the Kingdom Hearts thing kind of sad, it looks like the game is now going to be pimped around, and turns out the PSP gets the REAL one that is a prequel to the previous two but connects with the secret cutscene at the end of KH2.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 24, 2007, 07:31:54 PM
Quote Namco is stupid, too. They went and made several Nintendo handheld Castlevania titles, then announced the remake of a non-North America title on the PSP. Also unavailable to Nintendo fans: Symphony of the Night. Instead, it goes to the PSP (part of the earlier PSP game) and Live Arcade. I understand the whole Live Arcade thing, why not? But to separate the fanbase after you've already been immensely successful on the opposing platform? At list release the game on both, not just the opposite one. Anyone else think this is stupid?
Wait a second, namco makes the Castlevania games?
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 24, 2007, 07:32:54 PM
Oops. Konami.
Quote Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix I find the Kingdom Hearts thing kind of sad, it looks like the game is now going to be pimped around, and turns out the PSP gets the REAL one that is a prequel to the previous two but connects with the secret cutscene at the end of KH2.
Yeah, it's just stupid. It's like Square decided that all of a sudden, all their fans sold their DSes and unbought all the previous SE games on the platform, then simultaneously bought PSPs. Why would they be so boneheaded? Do they forget that everyone and their grandmother owns a DS? A PS2?
I mean, as a fanboy, I want everything on a Nintendo system. I won't lie about that. But I'll be even more honest when I say there are some serious holes in their business strategies, and I'm really surprised Square-Enix seems to just now be figuring this out. Their response is more troublesome, though. By cutting the cost of production of North America games and in effect, splitting revenue of said games, they want to increase international revenues to fifty percent of their total revenues. I think they secretly plan on doing this by just decreasing their Japanese revenue so much that by default, international revenues increase.
Hoping for an increase in revenue here just is idiotic. The purpose of the North American publisher is to cut costs so that more of the revenues generated turn into profit, right? In this sense, increased revenue just means that they sell more games, and they shouldn't need an NA publisher to do that. They should need one to cut the costs of self-publishing overseas. ARGH! STOP BEING SO STUPID! It's like they're using Sony logic! But maybe even worse!
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 24, 2007, 07:42:45 PM
Anyway, I really have been disgusted with Konami and to a lesser extent Square. Konami has really given Wii owners the finger, yeah Dewy and Elebits may be unique games, but they are obviously lower budget games as well. Now what are we getting, Dance Dance part 50? A Castlevania game would be perfect on the way and if pulled off correctly could be a big seller like their CV games on DS, but nooo, we get cheap knock off after cheap knock off to fund MGS4.
Square is a bit better, but still they should be supporting Wii a bit more, like give us Kingdom Hearts or something, you can't tell me that wouldn't sell like crazy on Wii. They can't put around the excuse that the Wii userbase can't handle more traditional/mature games, because Kingdom Hearts is for a diverse audience. It would be nice to see the FF series back on the Wii as well, maybe Square could, you know, do something to revolutionize the series with the Wiimote instead of throwing money at the PS3 which is in turn eaten up. Heck it would be nice to get ONE big budget game for Wii, it is pretty sad when Red Steel is probably the biggest budget Wii title so far. So I am hoping Square steps up, because if they do they will expand the Wii user base.
Capcom has been pretty bad as well, yes Zach and Wiki looks like tons of fun but you get the feeling that they haven't put much towards the budget of the game, not to mention the visual style represents what they think of the Wii userbase. What is most infuriating is that RE4 sold like crazy for Wii, and I would think that would tell Capcom "Maybe our stereotype of Wii gamers is off. Maybe they actually need a full blown traditional game instead of a lightgun shooter and a cartoony game".
EA has been relatively solid so far, at least they appear to be taking some chances even if some have bit them in the butt (like Boogie). To a lesser extent the same can be said about Ubisoft, but even they are keeping traditional games away from Wii.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 24, 2007, 07:54:29 PM
Well, I have to agree. Capcom is trying out the Wii, at least. They put RE:4 there, they're placing RE:UC. Sure, we won't see RE5, but that's 1/3, and RE5 started development before RE4:Wii was released, at least. There's Zack and Wiki, like you said. Beyond that, we don't know too much about their future games CELL PHONES CELL PHONES CELL PHONES Really, they seem to be testing the markets to me.
Konami is just getting ridiculous, though. It's like we only want one type of game. Then, they think because that game does decently, that means it's the only type we want. Yes, I'll buy Elebits, yes, I'll buy Dewey, but you know what? I'd buy CastleVania, too. If more MGS titles were Wii bound, I'd get the whole series, as far as it goes on the Wii. So would a lot of other people, if they did to the games what Capcom did for RE4:Wii. But, they aren't even planning on trying it.
Square isn't trying to test the Wii. They know they can't do Dragon Quest on any other company's systems, so they don't, for Japan's sake. Beyond that, it's just a series Nintendo paid for, anyways. Oh, and ports and remakes. I like remakes, but a lot of other people don't. However, I don't like remakes that are really just ports, which is what half of their remakes are. For less selling platforms, though, they give new games and more main series-type stuff. If they really wanted to test out the Wii, they'd slap some waggle into the Final Mixes of Kingdom Hearts, then release them state-side. It would be cheap, quick, and if interest were generated, they'd know the Wii has sales legs over here.
Also, they need to stop waiting to release translated versions of games. They take nearly a year in some cases, which is an unnecessary and antiquated practice, except for Super Paper Mario.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: IceCold on September 24, 2007, 09:44:58 PM
I've come to terms with the fact that the industry vendetta against Nintendo plus the absolute idiocy of third parties far overpowers their want to satisfy shareholders.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Ian Sane on September 25, 2007, 05:30:45 AM
"I've come to terms with the fact that the industry vendetta against Nintendo"
It sure seems that way. I mean the Wii is the worldwide market leader and yet Nintendo still gets screwed on third party support. What the hell? It's like they changed the rules once Nintendo became number one again.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Strell on September 25, 2007, 05:40:00 AM
Outside of Dragon Quest 9, I really question essentially every decision Japanese developers make when it comes to selling their portable games.
As far as Wii third party support goes, the only answer that makes sense is that none of those companies thought the Wii would sell. Then it actually came out and has become a runaway success.
If - within a year - there is not major support from Konami/Capcom/Square/etc., then yes, there is definitely something wrong.
All of their predictions right before the launch of the Wii were wrong, and most of them continue to be wrong.
I mean I thought I read a few months ago that Square was sure the PS3 would become the leader within a year, and now they are worried about sales overall for their own software, but they refuse to do the smart thing and put them on Nintendo consoles.
That's just retarded.
Of course, this is the same company who said "we don't think our fans want to download our games on the Virtual Console."
Amazing.
About the only other thing I can think to say is that there might be a vendetta, because those companies know that they now have to compete directly with Nintendo if they want a piece of the sweet Wii pie, where as for the last ten years, they could have fifth string development teams port over a POS and just not care.
I hate how Nintendo is their own double-edged sword.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: KDR_11k on September 25, 2007, 07:36:13 AM
I mean I thought I read a few months ago that Square was sure the PS3 would become the leader within a year, and now they are worried about sales overall for their own software, but they refuse to do the smart thing and put them on Nintendo consoles.
Perhaps they got a huge check from Sony and spent it already.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: nitsu niflheim on September 25, 2007, 08:26:59 AM
Well... Final Fantasy VII Crisis Core has been in development Hell =D since it was announced in 2004. 3 years later the game just recently came out in Japan.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: IceCold on September 25, 2007, 11:52:16 AM
Quote As far as Wii third party support goes, the only answer that makes sense is that none of those companies thought the Wii would sell. Then it actually came out and has become a runaway success.
If - within a year - there is not major support from Konami/Capcom/Square/etc., then yes, there is definitely something wrong.
The thing is, it's all well and good that they missed the bandwagon. However, it's been a year of the Wii tearing up sales charts, and they could at least announce some more games in development for the Wii, even if they're a year or two down the road.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Kairon on September 25, 2007, 11:58:53 AM
Yeah, I gotta make a post sometime about my current conflicting feelings and thoughts on the state of Wii third party adoption...
It's interesting because actually, the Wii had the most games at TGS aside from the DS... and that's with Nintendo itself not showing up!
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Ian Sane on September 25, 2007, 12:17:31 PM
"Of course, this is the same company who said 'we don't think our fans want to download our games on the Virtual Console.'"
Did they say that? Act Raiser is on the VC. Or because that's Enix does that not count? Square games for some reason have to be treated differently?
The reason we haven't seen a Final Fantasy game on the VC is simple - they've been re-releasing them on the GBA, DS and PSP. They can't expect to constantly remake or retool these games and sell them at full price if the VC offers the original version for less than 10 bucks, can they? They probably feel that something like Act Raiser isn't popular enough for remakes to be worthwhile but it popular enough with hardcore game geeks to get some easy VC sales. The first Square games on the VC will likely be titles like Secret of Evermore and Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest. But Final Fantasy VI? Remakes of that will continue to sell for YEARS.
"The thing is, it's all well and good that they missed the bandwagon. However, it's been a year of the Wii tearing up sales charts, and they could at least announce some more games in development for the Wii, even if they're a year or two down the road."
I agree and this bothers me. When ever I complain about the Wii third party support this is what I'm talking about. I think the "well they didn't know the Wii would be a success" excuse is no longer making sense. I wonder if third parties are concerned that the Wii may be a fad OR that's what they've told themselves to save face for picking the wrong horse. Personal pride gets in the way of good business sense all the time. Better to deny the successful Wii support and HOPE that maybe the weak third party support kills it than to admit a mistake while making serious money off the Wii.
Oddly enough anyone who initially supported the N64 had NO PROBLEM jumping ship. Both Square and Enix teased support before going Playstation (though Enix took a lot longer).
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 25, 2007, 12:40:23 PM
Hey, look at the Gamecube...Support for it was pulled within the first SIX MONTHS...
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 25, 2007, 01:06:59 PM
But at least then, the Cube wasn't winning. At least there's an excuse there. But the problem is, all you hear is how devs are constantly saying that games cost too much to make now, and that if the games don't earn enough sales volume, they're flops. The Wii solves both problems. Games are cheaper to make when you don't have to polygon them up and are familiar with the programming environment to begin with, and then after that, more people own the Wii than anything else.
Particularly with SE, if they want to sell more titles in North America, they should at least pick a machine that's actually penetrated the North American market. It's so stupid. So incredibly stupid.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 25, 2007, 01:09:07 PM
I think many developers are still gun shy not only to compete with Nintendo game wise but also a nagging voice in the back of their head, which most of us Nintendo fans have, which is "The bottom is going to drop out any moment".
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 25, 2007, 01:12:31 PM
Don't they see that they're the reasons it drops? Don't they see that they killed the Cube? Don't they see that despite their efforts this time, Nintendo's still making it a year later? Haven't they noticed that except at Christmas, there are large gaps of time that they could publish a game without Nintendo's competition? Can't they think?
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 25, 2007, 01:20:01 PM
Quote Originally posted by: thatguy Can't they think.
Good point, I think we need to have a scientific study on the matter.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 25, 2007, 01:34:26 PM
That was more rhetorical. We already know the answer is no.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Luigi Dude on September 25, 2007, 01:41:06 PM
I find it rather sad that under Iwata, Nintendo has tried all they can to be nice to third parties, yet third parties have screwed Nintendo the worst these last several years. The Wii and DS have been the market leaders, the cheapest and easiest to develop for, and Nintendo is actually being nice to the companies even helping them in some cases. Yet third parties blow off Nintendo to support the more expensive, difficult to develop for systems with much smaller user bases.
I mean, during the N64 era when Yamauchi treated third parties like crap, it made sense why third parties wanted nothing to do with Nintendo. The Playstation had the largest user base and was easier and cheaper to develop for. Why would any third party want to then develop for the N64 when it's harder, more expensive and the President of Nintendo was telling you your company is inferior to his and you should feel honored he was even allowing you to develop for his system.
But the last several years Iwata has been doing all he can to build relationships with third parties only to have them slap him in the face for his effort. Nintendo is finally treating third parties as equals, only to have the third parties now treat Nintendo like they're the inferior one.
I say Iwata should just say "f*ck it" one day and go into Yamauchi mode. He should tell third parties they have to pick a side, either they give full support to the Wii and DS, or don't bother. This way third parties can't use the sales of their craptacular Wii games to fund their good 360/PS3 games.
And with the Wii building it's lead every month, something like this would sure make third parties realize just what system is most important if they want to make money.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 25, 2007, 01:46:55 PM
Right, but then next generation, we'd pay for it. Oh wait, we already don't get good the good third party games now, so I guess we wouldn't pay for it, really.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Luigi Dude on September 25, 2007, 02:00:31 PM
Well the way Sony's going they wont be around next generation and since Microsoft's non existent in Japan, the Japanese third parties would have no place to go but Nintendo.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 25, 2007, 02:24:46 PM
Until Square decides to make their own console. Or Bandai, or Capcom, or Namco. There's options out there. Sony jumped into the console race, Microsoft jumped in the console race. What's stopping GE, Apple, or Mistubishi from hopping in, too? Just because you own one generation against one set of competitors in one situation, doesn't mean you'll win the next.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Adrock on September 25, 2007, 03:42:42 PM
3rd parties could do well on Nintendo hardware if they actually gave a sh*t. Too many assumptions tossed around. Too many excuses. Just shut up and make a quality game already.
I don't want to jump the gun yet. I'll give 3rd parties the benefit of the doubt and give them a pass since Wii caught everyone off guard. If, by next year, the support doesn't change, I'll admit Nintendo is getting shafted and honestly, there'd be no reason for it.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: UERD on September 25, 2007, 04:05:27 PM
Quote Sony jumped into the console race, Microsoft jumped in the console race. What's stopping GE, Apple, or Mistubishi from hopping in, too? Just because you own one generation against one set of competitors in one situation, doesn't mean you'll win the next.
Sony had a half-finished SNES add-on that they could turn into a console, Microsoft had mountains of cash they could burn through (and their XBox division is still miles away from recovering their investment). Entering the console race is really, really difficult, and only getting harder.
Incidentally, Apple had a console at one point- the Apple Pippin. None of the third-parties you mentioned have the breadth, quality, and depth of titles to support a console as a first party.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 25, 2007, 04:38:18 PM
While I have to agree that none of the aforementioned groups could make it on their own, if Nintendo pisses off all the other devs this generation, who says none of the companies could make it with everyone else's support? I mean, no one thought that Sony would make it in. We had Sega and Nintendo. Sony had foreign hardware, no first party game divisions, and all that jazz, but immediately, developers flocked to them because the Saturn was just weird and they all disliked Nintendo. Sony entered because of the half-finished SNES-CD, but they won because of the third parties.
Microsoft has a ton of cash, yes, and they aren't making money on their games division, true, but they are attempting to use the games department to break into home entertainment media devices. To them, if their game division loses money, but they earn money by creating a strong digital distribution platform, there's no net loss. What's to say GE can't cross-promote NBC, Universal movie properties, theme parks, and other things by using a games console? If they lose money on the console, but gain more by generating interest in other things, wouldn't that be successful? Couldn't third parties choose them, too?
You're looking at only small portions of the issues that define a console race, and you're looking at them as separate pieces. You've got to look at the big picture. How many copies of Final Fantasy sold? About five million. That's likely five million people that would be on board if SE decided to create their own console. Now, as SE is known for creating cinematic games, Kojima jumps on board, along with most Konami support. After all, they already obviously don't like working with Nintendo. So then, you get the Metal Gear fans who aren't already major Square-Enix fans. Now Capcom announces that several of its titles will be cross-platform, because their money whores.
Where does that leave Nintendo? In a ton of trouble, clearly.
Of course, this is if Nintendo takes the "You're with us or you're with them." strategy. If they avoid that, and continue to be nice to third parties, hopefully SE never feels the need to create its own console. It's really hard to say that someone is too small or too separate to create a console. After all, Nintendo made cards, then toys, then video games. What's to say Mattel doesn't want back in to video games?
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Strell on September 25, 2007, 05:04:12 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Ian Sane "Of course, this is the same company who said 'we don't think our fans want to download our games on the Virtual Console.'"
Did they say that? Act Raiser is on the VC. Or because that's Enix does that not count? Square games for some reason have to be treated differently?
The reason we haven't seen a Final Fantasy game on the VC is simple - they've been re-releasing them on the GBA, DS and PSP. They can't expect to constantly remake or retool these games and sell them at full price if the VC offers the original version for less than 10 bucks, can they? They probably feel that something like Act Raiser isn't popular enough for remakes to be worthwhile but it popular enough with hardcore game geeks to get some easy VC sales. The first Square games on the VC will likely be titles like Secret of Evermore and Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest. But Final Fantasy VI? Remakes of that will continue to sell for YEARS.
Yes, they did say that.
And I'm talking about the games they aren't constantly remaking, which includes (most notably) Super Mario RPG and Chrono Trigger. Hell, they won't even put Breath of Fire out there, given that they published it in the US (as is my understanding, which is why BoF2 is out).
To a lesser extent this also includes games like Radical Dreamers, Seiken Densetsu 2/3, Bahamut Lagoon, and a host of other only-released-in-Japan RPG games.
The FF series - and recently, the DQ series - are exceptions for the reason you give above.
Actraiser doesn't count because it was solely an Enix game at the time it was made, so I imagine Square has no say in the matter. Or, rather, the part of SE that is Square.
On a related point, WTF is up with Igarashi and Castlevania? That's an even bigger travesty in my opinion. All that nonsense about how he wanted to focus on consoles and 3D, and then pulling support/development for the DS versions, which consistently turned out better than anything else. I can understand the PSP getting the remake of Rondo + SOTN. That in and of itself doesn't really bother me. But the nonsense with that series is just scarifyingly beyond.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: UERD on September 25, 2007, 05:08:47 PM
Quote Where does that leave Nintendo? In a ton of trouble, clearly.
Of course, this is if Nintendo takes the "You're with us or you're with them." strategy. If they avoid that, and continue to be nice to third parties, hopefully SE never feels the need to create its own console. It's really hard to say that someone is too small or too separate to create a console. After all, Nintendo made cards, then toys, then video games. What's to say Mattel doesn't want back in to video games?
You make lots of good points, but it seems Nintendo is not (overtly) doing anything wrong in terms of luring third parties- no arrogant demands, hard-to-get devkits, high licensing fees...I mean, devs are willing to make games, for the console...just crappy ones. So I think that the issues at hand are more fundamental than simply a hegemonic Nintendo.
Also remember that console R&D and manufacturing takes a lot of resources, especially if you want the cutting-edge hardware and online infrastructure necessary for certain types of game development styles. Sony and MS lose money on the hardware, but make it up through licensing fees. Current third parties only have to worry about licensing fees and game development costs. So it would probably be a tremendous financial burden with possibly disastrous results to whoever decided to make the hardware.
One more thing- a lot of companies that would otherwise do so do not have the consumer electronics experience required to successfully compete in the market. Yes, Nintendo went into the electronic games business after making toys and ramen, but the whole industry was still in a very formative state. Sony and MS both have experience marketing consumer technological products and understand the R&D and software work that goes into making high-end consumer electronics. It seems like expectations have somewhat solidified at this point, meaning that gamers have a very specific idea as to what they want and what is 'good' and 'bad' in a console, and as a result they are much less willing to tolerate or forgive deviations to that model.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 25, 2007, 05:13:43 PM
I think the winner will be the first to utilize shrunken head tech. I thought of it first, folks!
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 25, 2007, 05:36:06 PM
Igarashi is just flat-out jealous. He's been unable to steal the thunder by the team that originally worked on the N64 Castlevanias, while his "modern 3D" projects floundered.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: UERD on September 25, 2007, 05:37:07 PM
I think you're right, thatguy. Also, I didn't get the context of the posts leading up to yours. Regardless, I do agree that Nintendo should *not* enter domineering mode again.
What I *would* like to see is Nintendo funding the development of a couple 'key' games by reputable second/third parties- an epic multiplayer FPS and/or RTS (which would be really cool on Wii), an epic JRPG with a really good storyline, etc. Nintendo really needs to take a more proactive stance in regards to 'selling' the Wii to third-party developers and proving its worth for 'traditional' games and development styles, because it seems like sales numbers alone may not be enough.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: SixthAngel on September 25, 2007, 06:40:57 PM
I think there are a few reasons for this and I don't think it involves a vendetta against Nintendo. -The games these companies started developing 2 years ago are still not out and they don't want focus taken off these pricey games by announcing new titles for a different system -Companies, Square especially, need to justify all the money it spent on next gen technology. With the ps3 and bluray they can justify their cg movie making stuff. They also feel the need to not waste the money they spent on a new engine for ps3 games even if cutting their losses would be better. -Sony and MS give money to third parties. Especially now that each is system is just starting they will throw bonuses at these companies to get an exclusive or even get the game on their system at all in hopes of future success. Nintendo doesn't want to give out money for games. There console philosophy is to make money from the beginning, not lose it at first and with their strong 1st party line up they get a small sales benefit. Is there a way to know if "deals" are made? Accepting money hats will hurt the games brand in the long run but the companies are worried about now and the difference in the number of consoles hasn't become too wide yet.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: UncleBob on September 25, 2007, 07:15:21 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Luigi Dude I say Iwata should just say "f*ck it" one day and go into Yamauchi mode.
From what I know of Nintendo's History, this is the day I crave.
But then, I'm not one of those who thinks Nintendo really needs third parties to survive. Do I enjoy *good* third party games? Sure. However, the N64 and the GameCube pretty much proved that Nintendo can market a system - and turn a pretty profit on it - based on just about first party games alone. I know there are those who disagree and think this entire idea is bad, etc, etc... But heck, remember how the industry started - third parties were frowned upon and hardware developers were known to redesign the hardware to make third party games actually *not work* in newer revisions of the hardware. Granted, none of those companies really exist (Video game-wise) now-a-days, but I don't think anyone would say they have the same panache as Nintendo does.
I don't mean to come off as sounding like a gushing Nintendo fanboy... I'm just saying - Nintendo doesn't need third parties. Judging by the way hardware sales are going (console and hand held) - third parties are going to need Nintendo. I wish Nintendo would just bring back the seal of quality, except make it mean something a little more than it did in the NES days - take a more "We won't approve it unless it's actually good (or at least not Superman 64/Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz bad)" attitude.
"We don't need you. You showed us that with the Nintendo 64. You showed us again with the GameCube... and again in the early days of the DS... and the early days of the Wii."
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Arbok on September 25, 2007, 08:50:09 PM
Quote Originally posted by: thatguy You're looking at only small portions of the issues that define a console race, and you're looking at them as separate pieces. You've got to look at the big picture. How many copies of Final Fantasy sold? About five million. That's likely five million people that would be on board if SE decided to create their own console. Now, as SE is known for creating cinematic games, Kojima jumps on board, along with most Konami support. After all, they already obviously don't like working with Nintendo. So then, you get the Metal Gear fans who aren't already major Square-Enix fans. Now Capcom announces that several of its titles will be cross-platform, because their money whores.
Where does that leave Nintendo? In a ton of trouble, clearly.
That's basically what's happening right now... unless you are crediting the Wii's success to the scant few Konami and SE titles. As it has been stated, SE doesn't have the resources to make their own console. EA is the only one I could see with the finical might to make that happen, and I really doubt they would be interested.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: UERD on September 26, 2007, 12:37:00 AM
And not to rag on EA, but I doubt they have the creative firepower to compete in terms of first-party and original franchise titles.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: couchmonkey on September 26, 2007, 05:26:52 AM
Two topics:
Nintendo's lack of third party support: I think this is a misconception that's fuelled by a handful of games like Final Fantasy, RE 5, and MGS 4 which have appeared over and over and over again at every trade show for a few years now. The fact is, TGS belonged to Nintendo, and they weren't even there. I think people are just jealous that we don't have those few big sequels on the Wii.
Square and Konami are stupid: I don't know what Igarashi is thinking with Castlevania. I don't think he has a ton of business sense, although he makes some decent games. As for MGS...the game was planned for PS3 long ago, and honestly, I think it will do fine on that platform. The best thing they could do for MGS4 is port it to 360. Overall I think Konami could definitely wise up to the Wii situation some more, but it is showing more support than it did for GameCube.
Square Enix...ugh. While the company has shown some decent support for Wii, the overall business strategy is horrible. It seems like they're going down the same road as Sega did prior to the Sammy merger, and look how that turned out. Spreading your fanbase over three consoles and two handhelds is not a smart idea: most people won't buy all of them. They also seem to fail at catching on to the new trends...Parasite Eve and Final Fantasy VII were exactly what gamers were calling for back in the 90s, but today a new approach may be needed and I don't think Square Enix is even trying.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 26, 2007, 05:46:34 AM
Nintendo needs to come out and say "we don't need 3rd parties, but 3rd parties will be needing us."
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on September 26, 2007, 01:29:33 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Professional 666 Nintendo needs to come out and say "we don't need 3rd parties, but 3rd parties will be needing us."
You know, it is true for Nintendo. But it isn't true for me. I want to be able to get a lot of good third party games for one system. I don't like dealing with two different consoles. It's a hassle to me. Maybe I'm lazy, but I'd prefer just one console. I had two last gen, and pretty much didn't use the PS2 for the later half of the generation.
I think other people are the same way, too.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 26, 2007, 01:44:35 PM
Quote Originally posted by: thatguy
Quote Originally posted by: Professional 666 Nintendo needs to come out and say "we don't need 3rd parties, but 3rd parties will be needing us."
You know, it is true for Nintendo. But it isn't true for me. I want to be able to get a lot of good third party games for one system. I don't like dealing with two different consoles. It's a hassle to me. Maybe I'm lazy, but I'd prefer just one console. I had two last gen, and pretty much didn't use the PS2 for the later half of the generation.
I think other people are the same way, too.
Except for me, I get games for all my consoles, well except for the PS3 which hasn't had any games worth getting for a long time.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: couchmonkey on September 27, 2007, 08:15:19 AM
In the short term, if you really have to play the big franchises (especially Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid) you may need two consoles.
I think in the longer term Wii is going to receive the most third party support (at least from Japan) and big companies that don't figure Wii out are going to have a lot of problems as many of their loyal users migrate to Nintendo. We've already heard Wii success stories from Ubisoft, Majesco and, to a smaller degree, Capcom. Those that don't get with the program are going to either have to work hard to dominate the "next-gen" half of the market or start trimming the fat.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: darknight06 on September 30, 2007, 03:57:02 AM
For the most part I agree with the assesment, but DAMN don't put this year's DDR into the half baked section. Konami did more for this mix than they've done for DDR in YEARS and the fact that we ended up getting it instead of PS2 is a huge boon to the console. Yeah, they got DDR Supernova 2 and I know some of you guys are looking at it all as Hottest Party being the spinoff. Truth be told, I bet it's the other way around. Which one got showed off at TGS? Which one was announced first? Which one were they pimping hard? Nobody knew about Supernova 2 until maybe 2 months before it's release and they kept unusually quiet about it while they couldn't shut up about Hottest Party. I'm not saying Konami as a whole is thinking up great stuff for the Wii, but give the Bemani group credit. They at least seem to know what's up.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Kairon on September 30, 2007, 09:19:47 AM
I think the deal with Konami is getting penetration into their more core development efforts. We've obviously got the Elebits/Dewy group dedicated to giving the Wii their brand of games, and it really is great to finally get a regular DDR game... YES! We're even getting their big-headed Baseball game! But... there are those Wii-Castlevania comments that were made by Igarashi (?), and until we see some commitment from the rest of their studios, it's hard not to feel uneasy about the prospect of being given lip-service.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Ceric on September 30, 2007, 03:53:41 PM
I agree with the notion of brining back the Seal of Quality and it meaning that a game has reached a certain level of polish. I think it should mean that at the end of the day if you don't like a game with the seal its because you don't like the genre or that story. Nothing technical.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Kairon on September 30, 2007, 08:10:43 PM
The seal of quality never meant anything to begin with, it was just a psychological consumer trick. The REAL seal of quality is Yamauchi's iron fist... and I think the price for that to return would be too high for many fans to accept.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: KDR_11k on October 01, 2007, 12:09:23 AM
I think it should not be up to Nintendo to judge the value of a game beyond technical concerns or perhaps when the game is seriously crap, Superman 64 style. Having them judge a game by any higher standard can easily result in skewing where their less favourite genres get downrated.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Plugabugz on October 01, 2007, 01:28:37 AM
If it plays on the console and doesn't damage the hardware, its got the seal.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Ceric on October 01, 2007, 07:57:17 AM
Quote Originally posted by: KDR_11k I think it should not be up to Nintendo to judge the value of a game beyond technical concerns or perhaps when the game is seriously crap, Superman 64 style. Having them judge a game by any higher standard can easily result in skewing where their less favourite genres get downrated.
Thats pretty much what I'm saying. Things of a technical nature. Though I put controls in their as well but its really so intertwined in both that you can't split it out...
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Galford on October 01, 2007, 06:33:00 PM
I really don't think developers are giving the Wii the finger. There are a number of factors involved, but much of it has to do with the course Nintendo has taken the Wii.
1.)The industry is in the middle of a transition. In Japan next-gen HD equals PS3. With the PS3 flopping few companines can afford a next gen title unless it's a million seller. Even still with the PS3's obtuse design few companies will pay money to push it. Licensing middleware is something the Japanese are not big on.
2.)Limited hardware. The Wii will not age gracefully. Minus the controller the Wii hardware was outdated from day one and will continue to look worse against the competition. With little internal memory the Wii is going to hit a wall fast. I could say alot things but to boil it down the 360 and PS3 can grow as is, the Wii can not without a major hardware revision.
3.)Nintendo still ignores online. The PS2 had better online support. Nintendo only does online because competition shamed them into it. Once again Xbox Live and PSN are raping the Wii in terms of online integration.
4.)Wii's misc/multimedia functions suck. From homebrew programming to video/DVD playback there are many things to do on the 360/PS3 without buying a game. With the Wii you can create a Mii, play a puzzle, and play back a movie in an obscure video format. That's it.
I know I will take a lot of heat for this but think about it...
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Kairon on October 01, 2007, 07:14:02 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Galford I really don't think developers are giving the Wii the finger. There are a number of factors involved, but much of it has to do with the course Nintendo has taken the Wii.
1.)The industry is in the middle of a transition. In Japan next-gen HD equals PS3. With the PS3 flopping few companines can afford a next gen title unless it's a million seller. Even still with the PS3's obtuse design few companies will pay money to push it. Licensing middleware is something the Japanese are not big on.
2.)Limited hardware. The Wii will not age gracefully. Minus the controller the Wii hardware was outdated from day one and will continue to look worse against the competition. With little internal memory the Wii is going to hit a wall fast. I could say alot things but to boil it down the 360 and PS3 can grow as is, the Wii can not without a major hardware revision.
3.)Nintendo still ignores online. The PS2 had better online support. Nintendo only does online because competition shamed them into it. Once again Xbox Live and PSN are raping the Wii in terms of online integration.
4.)Wii's misc/multimedia functions suck. From homebrew programming to video/DVD playback there are many things to do on the 360/PS3 without buying a game. With the Wii you can create a Mii, play a puzzle, and play back a movie in an obscure video format. That's it.
I know I will take a lot of heat for this but think about it...
But doesn't that all pale in comparison to the considerations of install base, marketshare, and money?
Of course, this generation is totally crazy, but the hope of Nintendo fans is to benefit from a sort of delayed PS2 effect. And of course, points 2,3, and 4 all didn't hurt the NDS... just gave it a little bit of a roadbump. Will we see similar results for the Wii as we saw for the DS?
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Arbok on October 01, 2007, 07:14:40 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Galford 1.)The industry is in the middle of a transition. In Japan next-gen HD equals PS3. With the PS3 flopping few companines can afford a next gen title unless it's a million seller. Even still with the PS3's obtuse design few companies will pay money to push it. Licensing middleware is something the Japanese are not big on.
So that means more developers should be supporting the Wii with this fact out in the open, right?
Quote Originally posted by: Galford 2.)Limited hardware. The Wii will not age gracefully. Minus the controller the Wii hardware was outdated from day one and will continue to look worse against the competition. ... I could say alot things but to boil it down the 360 and PS3 can grow as is, the Wii can not without a major hardware revision.
Same could be said of the DS compared to the PSP.
Quote Originally posted by: Galford 4.)Wii's misc/multimedia functions suck. From homebrew programming to video/DVD playback there are many things to do on the 360/PS3 without buying a game. With the Wii you can create a Mii, play a puzzle, and play back a movie in an obscure video format. That's it.
See above.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on October 01, 2007, 07:16:49 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Galford I really don't think developers are giving the Wii the finger. There are a number of factors involved, but much of it has to do with the course Nintendo has taken the Wii.
1.)The industry is in the middle of a transition. In Japan next-gen HD equals PS3. With the PS3 flopping few companines can afford a next gen title unless it's a million seller. Even still with the PS3's obtuse design few companies will pay money to push it. Licensing middleware is something the Japanese are not big on.
2.)Limited hardware. The Wii will not age gracefully. Minus the controller the Wii hardware was outdated from day one and will continue to look worse against the competition. With little internal memory the Wii is going to hit a wall fast. I could say alot things but to boil it down the 360 and PS3 can grow as is, the Wii can not without a major hardware revision.
3.)Nintendo still ignores online. The PS2 had better online support. Nintendo only does online because competition shamed them into it. Once again Xbox Live and PSN are raping the Wii in terms of online integration.
4.)Wii's misc/multimedia functions suck. From homebrew programming to video/DVD playback there are many things to do on the 360/PS3 without buying a game. With the Wii you can create a Mii, play a puzzle, and play back a movie in an obscure video format. That's it.
I know I will take a lot of heat for this but think about it...
Personally, I think your observations are incorrect. The first is true. The only HD option in Japan is the PS3, but games don't sell well when there isn't much hardware penetration, and the PS3 doesn't have that penetration, either. It just isn't a viable option for developers to genuinely make a profit, especially without breaking the bank well before revenue streams in
The second has yet to be determined. However, I have not yet seen a next-generation game whose core mechanics and, in essence, entire self, could not be duplicated on the Wii. Sure, things will have less polygons and look less realistic, but to several gamers, these features are nearer to the back of the list of what's important. In this sense, the Wii won't age like you say, IMO. After all, what else can be done with more polygons and shaders, anyways? Game-play-wise, I mean. Look at the movie Sin City. It told it's story mostly in black and white. Does it seem dated? The timeless classic, It's a Wonderful Life, is that dated, too? What's the difference? Colors? Resolutions? I mean, dude, a great movie is a great movie is a great movie. It doesn't need ultra-realistic graphics to be great. How did the original Star Wars Trilogy age? Are the movies still not great to younger generations? I know I'm using movies and not games, but parallels can be drawn. The difference isn't as big as a silent film and a talkie. This generation, the pay-off in graphics really isn't there. Seriously. Look at Pikmin. Look at Super Mario Galaxy. Look at Metroid Prime 3. These games are nearly par with the big next-gen games, when you account for each game's style. I don't see how a developer wouldn't want a cheaper, friendlier, more familiar programming environment. Really, for most, this should be a non-issue.
Wii online is finding its identity. With the 360, out of the box, you get less than you do with the Wii. You have to buy to have anything, really. With the Wii, you have access to a couple channels, at least. The Wii can surf the 'net, a feature the 360 is missing. Games are free online, though, right now, there are only two, I think. The VC matches Live! Arcade, I believe, especially with the new systems about to emerge. Third party games are beginning to implement online, too. There's three, I was wrong before. Madden '08 is online, too (there might even be more, but heaven forbid I actually research something). Other 3rd party games will feature online, too. For instance, Rock Band and Guitar Hero 3, off the top of my head. It's pretty clear that Nintendo is footing a lot of the online bill for other companies if they want, (with the Nintendo WFC), and they're allowing third parties to jump on board, too.
The Playstation Network is a pretty shoddy thing, at least in North America, if I've heard correctly. Sure, there is a new game every once in a while, but the Playstation games aren't being revived, and it there aren't as many online games as it seems available on the platform, either.
As far as multimedia capabilities: First, the internet. Internet allows streaming media and basically endless information. The 360's online pales in comparison, w/o any true internet surfing applications. Second, price. For the price of a functional media 360, you'll need $350, I think (is that what the price dropped to for the Premium?) With the extra $100, you could buy a $20-30 DVD player, a $50 hard drive or SD card, and a couple VC games. For the price difference between the Wii and the PS3, there's several more options for the consumer. This is irrelevant, though, since we're talking publishers and developers. If you want to talk homebrew, take a look at Wii Ware coming up. It seems like there's actually a method arriving on the Wii that's not available anywhere else for smaller developers to actually make a decent profit. Beyond that, developers don't care if the Wii can play movies, consumers do, and judging by sales, they actually don't. The entire fourth reason is just a non-issue.
So there you go, I think I offer some great reasons why I disagree with you. I will say that Live! has developed into something powerful at the moment, but for once, we can finally see that Nintendo is going somewhere online to match this, with the Metroid Prime 3 Preview Channel, the channel additions, the import games, and Wii Ware. I've mentioned the online gaming situation, and I admit that a hearty online system is a big draw for an American developer, and I concede that it is a better environment right now, but I hate to say it, Japanese games are a little less online-friendly as of now, anyways, so Nintendo's lackluster structure may be a better fit for some.
You make good points, but they either aren't focuses of developers, or there are few extra details neglected in your reasoning that I have countered with.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 01, 2007, 07:53:05 PM
ZELDA WARS BATTLEFRONT
WITH ZAPPER SUPPORT
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: UERD on October 01, 2007, 07:53:30 PM
I'll just briefly address #2 and #4.
2. The Wii won't age gracefully. But then again, it's not supposed to last for ten years like the PS3. By the time that proverbial 'brick wall' is approaching, they'll be readying a next-generation machine, and with the way that IC technology is going, it will be a lot cheaper to pack the hardware necessary for a marked increase in performance into the device.
4. The vast majority of consumers don't give a flying poo about things like homebrew and DVD support. In fact, PSP is really good for homebrew and stuff. It's so suited for that application that very few people I know who own a PSP don't have at least a few pirated games for the device. Do you honestly think (third-party) developers are happy about that sort of thing? They want you to buy their game, not freaking download the ISO or watch a movie instead.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 01, 2007, 08:08:09 PM
"lasting" 10 years by its technological strength is not a significant issue. It's whether it still brings business for 10 years (or whatever length) that matters.
see: Game Boy Spinnach, PS2
as opposed to: Dreamcast, 3DO, PhailCube
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Kairon on October 01, 2007, 08:27:49 PM
I personally think, though, that a lot of that market-segmentation talk could become true if developers keep trying to make that reality manifest. The XBox 360 is here to stay and provide a viable market and alternative to the Wii. It's market stats are quite nice for third parties, and it may very well prove to be a sort of Genesis-like Rival to Nintendo's Wii. Certain developers are sure to stay predominantly on the "tech-y" systems just because of dinosaur stubbornness, but that doesn't mean that they'll go extinct. The rest will, or should, come over to the Wii and benefit not only from simple market majority and market expansion, but also from the new artistic possibilities of the wiimote, cheaper development, and the lack of major pressure to keep up with Gears of War and MGS 4 level bleeding edge technologies.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: SixthAngel on October 02, 2007, 03:00:02 AM
Why won't Wii age gracefully? The difference between 360 games and Wii games that we see now isn't going to get bigger. The 360 has been out for two years and there isn't much more to squeeze out of the box. Halo 3, an in house game, had to drop the resolution below HD to get everything to look good. The Wii aging will probably go better then we think because third parties have so far put out mostly rushed launch games and easy ports.
Wii online is perfectly fine. The only thing that it needs is more games and they will come. Once Brawl and a few more online games come out it will be better then xbox live. The number of games is the only meaningful advantage I see in the live system and its $50 cost. The vc absolutely destroys live arcade with games and now has import games as well. Lets not forget that offline is more important then online. The system seller for the Wii? Wii Sports a totally offline game. Original xbox? Halo 1, totally offline. Online is important but considering that a majority of gamers won't even have it available (much less pay $50) lets not talk about it like it is the most important thing, especially when the difference between the services of the consoles is pretty negligible.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Ceric on October 02, 2007, 06:23:53 AM
On the graphics thing I would point everyone to look at Sonic Next Gen and Sonic and the Secret Rings. I've just rented the PS3 one out of curiosity and the Sonic portion so far are just like SSR but with worse controls and the Sonic you have when you only have the first agility skill. In fact I think SSR looks better as well in the actual gameplay.
As for in general. I think the Wii has room to grow but, I don't think it can overtake. If that makes since. I hope that this time around we'll see games for the Wii looking vastly better in the last year then the first, unlike the Gamecube. I feel that the 360 will probably soon reach its upper level and the PS3 will take much longer to hit its ceiling.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Mashiro on October 02, 2007, 06:33:20 AM
Agreed with SixthAngel, ("The Wii aging will probably go better then we think because third parties have so far put out mostly rushed launch games and easy ports.")
the Wii actually has great potential age gracefully and we can certainly thank our current batch of games for that.
IF, if being the keyword here, IF developers as a whole really get serious about developing for Wii and take notice of games like Super Mario Galaxy maybe, just maybe, we will see far nicer looking games down the road.
I think graphics as a whole for the Wii can be nice enough to remain "good looking" for some time into the future.. Will Mario Galaxy look any less great 4 years down the road? Probably not. In fact graphics (while the Xbox 360 and PS3 can do things Wii can't . . .) on the Wii are at a point where if you put enough effort into it they will still look dazzlingly good. While graphics may not be the Wiis strong point, it certainly is no slouch, and the sooner developers start taking advantage of it's hidden power, the sooner we will have games that look better than the PS2.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 02, 2007, 06:53:05 AM
Wait, I didn't hear about Halo 3 being dropped below HD in its visuals? Just curious, where did you find that Sixth?
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: bustin98 on October 02, 2007, 07:09:05 AM
Joystiq and Kotaku ran stories about how people counted the pixels to 1152x640. Bungie replied saying its true, but in exchange they are using two fame buffers for increased dynamic range lighting.
Whoopee todo da. You'd never know if it was never mentioned. Though I guess some people would say its the principle of the idea.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: darknight06 on October 02, 2007, 08:17:24 AM
Yeah, it's the principle of the idea because the way I see it I just threw down about $1,000 plus just to get the system, games, surround system and the HDTV to support it. I don't want to hear about any "cuts" made to any games' graphics or anything on a next-gen console. At this point it's a BS excuse with all the technology they have under the hood, and you better believe I'm not the only one that's looking at it all this way.
As far as Wii looking dated in a few years, why does this issue keep cropping up with people. It's a $150 console barring the controller and Wii Sports. Anybody disappointed with the Wii's graphics and tech in comparison to consoles that costs $500 plus to build at launch is a damned moron that DESERVES to be disappointed. For most people the GC appeared dated compared to the X-Box and even the PS2 at times because outside of one or two companies nobody ever bothered to actually get anything real out of the system, and even then the GC could probably go farther than it's best titles. Hell if anything, a lot of the Wii's first year problems with third parties probably has a lot to do with the fact that they:
1. Either don't care enough. 2. Never really learned the GC hardware to begin with, (remember talks of some developers "discovering" later in it's lifespan that the GC had an additional 16MB of RAM on top of the main 24MB) or 3. Both 1. and 2. which is probably the situation for some of the devs on Wii now.
My concern isn't with the Wii's so-called lack of tech, I understand what it can and can't do and can completely accept that given the price tag. It's with the average developers lack of giving a crap that gets my blood boiling. When Rogue Leader and RE4 look heaps better than a good 80% of the third party lineup on a stronger console with practically the same architecture you know something ain't right. I mean damn, even Wii Sports of all things did a few bump maps. WII SPORTS!!!
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Svevan on October 02, 2007, 09:26:32 AM
If I had come into this discussion earlier I would have mentioned that not only did Nintendo do damage to their third-party support in the N64/GC era, even now, with Iwata supposedly trying to put it all back together (Reggie's doing a better job than that, see Take Two and Rockstar), Nintendo is an extremely arrogant, protective, and conservative company (innovations in hardware notwithstanding; see Wii price point, low hardware specs, similarity to GC, cost of manufacture, etc). I don't think they're sitting around with arms wide open, saying "if you want to make money, come make games for us." There are hoops you must jump through to be on Nintendo's side, especially now that they have the cash cow and Sony's faltering. Also, committing "100%" to the "new guy" (aheh, funny how that works) is dangerous because of the ever-changing game market. Two generations ago, PSX beat out the N64; last generation, MS arose and beat out the GC's niche market, with Sony still in the lead; this generation, MS was on top for awhile and may go back on top very soon, with Nintendo in the lead currently; next generation, who knows?
I think the Wii can last ten years: the trick is to make games with a solid graphical style that needs no apologizing (see all the great PS2 games of late). Most of the things I've seen so far on Wii DO need apologizing for, and only Nintendo and maybe SEGA have figured this out. Non-traditional games like Guitar Hero can do extremely well on Wii, since the userbase won't expect high-res or nurbs or what have you. Also, 2-D games need to come back ASAP - Grim Grimoire ftw? Top down RPGs? ADVENTURE GAMES? Tim Schaffer, get your ass over here.
I haven't been okay with MS being in the console race since day one; I would have much preferred Sony leading with a well-priced and reasonable PS3 instead of this Colossus that can be knocked over by a small man (like Nintendo). But as it stands, if I get a 360, I can have those high-powered high-res FPS experiences, or those cinema-laden RPGs (wait, no I can't); with the Wii, I can get something smaller but DIFFERENT and that's what matters.
So no developer should commit to one system; but if I had to choose, god, I'd steer clear of both Sony and MS. Of course, abandoning the 360 right now would be about as unwise as neglecting the Wii.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 02, 2007, 04:34:38 PM
Lesson of this gen: People aren't getting what they paid for.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Galford on October 02, 2007, 06:06:11 PM
Where to begin..
Thatguy I appreciate your well thought out response. I still disgree with you on a few points.
Let me put this way.
If I wanted to make a game for the Wii I have two options, make a game from the ground up and take a big risk or do a quick and dirty mini-game collection. The Wii is so behind in graphics I would have to build my art assests from the ground up and I couldn't really reuse them on another system. My Wii game would have to sell a lot to turn a buck without the comfort of being able to port it to another system.
If make a game for the PS3 I can port it to the 360 and/or PC. While the Wii's numbers are huge are they bigger then the install base for the above systems.
This is the dilemma facing a lot of developers right now. The way Nintendo is marketing the Wii most publishers have little reason to push the Wii.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: that Baby guy on October 02, 2007, 06:26:44 PM
The Wii has outsold and is continuing to outsell both competitors, with the only week in recent history that they haven't outsold competitors being the week of Halo 3's release, I believe.
As far as the Wii game being built from the ground up, it'll take far less time to create a Wii game from the ground up than it would for a game on the newer platforms. Mini game collections have graphics, too, and in several cases, they can take just as long to design. The mini-game idea is used because level design, concept, and programming are cheap, yet sell well, and has no correlation to the hardware's abilities. Take a look for yourself: I believe Viva Pinata Party or Something is coming out on the 360. This isn't to avoid heavy graphical work, and it isn't because the art is already done. Why? The game features new characters, animations and locales. It's an easy cash-in that was developed quickly, though, and like the mini-games collections on the Wii, it isn't restrained by hardware capabilities, at least, not in the graphic departments.
Ok, so we've established that mini-game collections are made because they're cheap and quick to design and program, right? So now, there's the other issue about building the graphics from the grounds up. In that case, I offer you Viva Pinata DS. This game won't be able to use the same models as the 360 version, will it? Yet, it's likely to be churned out pretty quickly.
Essentially, the idea is that you don't have to spend so much time and money on the Wii in the graphics, yet the return will still be nearly as good as what the other two next generation systems offer. It won't take long to build these character models from the ground up. It won't take long to build decent environments. No where near as long as it takes for the 360 or PS3, and there's a lot less to show for a great deal of extra time.
Granted, Halo 3 has already hit the limits, as someone else said earlier, the screen's resolution had to be lowered in order to handle the game. Doesn't that mean something? The 360's upper limit is being met with what's out there now. I think you also miss that Developers have a difficult time porting a game from 360/PC to the PS3, too. IIRC, it takes a long time and a dedicated team of it's own to do so, so that option is really pretty much thrown out it most cases, and a lot of PC gamers only buy games designed for the PC and "ported" to the 360, like Bioshock, and not the other way around. Not to mention, most major Japanese developers don't develop for the PC in the first place.
How is Nintendo marketing the Wii, anyways? And what does that have to do with developers? Nintendo markets the Wii to the public, not to the developers or publishers. Publishers have higher profit margins on the Wii, too. Take a look and see where all of Capcom's recent profits have come from. The Wii. Publishers have every reason to push the Wii.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Arbok on October 02, 2007, 08:07:33 PM
Quote Originally posted by: thatguy The Wii has outsold and is continuing to outsell both competitors, with the only week in recent history that they haven't outsold competitors being the week of Halo 3's release, I believe.
If VGchartz is to be believed, the 360 has outsold the Wii these past two weeks in the US.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: KDR_11k on October 02, 2007, 10:43:46 PM
I doubt Nintendo puts big hurdles in front of other devs, they know they need better third party support and they know third parties are giving them crap (game wise, the whole "fifth fiddle dev team" thing). Of course there are some hurdles but there are with all manufacturers, e.g. Nintendo requires you to have an office, MS demands HD graphics, Sony will refuse games in the US for arbitrary reasons.
Minigames are popular because you don't commit yourself to one control style or game design, if you find out that one style isn't very popular after release that doesn't leave you with a wholly unpopular game (cf. Lair). This is the experimentation phase, once it's complete most devs have an understanding of what can and cannot be done with the new hardware and can start making serious games with that knowledge. It was the same with the DS, many attempts at serious games early on failed because they picked control methods that didn't work or just included the touchscreen for the heck of it (cf. Castlevania DoS, the seals were unnecessary).
Quote Granted, Halo 3 has already hit the limits, as someone else said earlier, the screen's resolution had to be lowered in order to handle the game. Doesn't that mean something? The 360's upper limit is being met with what's out there now.
I don't think hitting a bottleneck means the system has been fully utilized. It's easy to make a game drop in framerate because it takes too much power, that means nothing. I've seen PS1-looking games on the PS2 slow down. The advances come from expanding what you can do before you hit a limit. This is why first-gen titles always look like crap, they have little optimization for the platform and thus hit the limits with very little in terms of graphics.
Title: RE:This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: Galford on October 03, 2007, 06:32:03 PM
I here what your saying thatguy, but making RS and RE level graphics on the Wii still cost a lot of money. May not cost as much as the PS3 and 360 but it's still there.
RE4 was a port on a prebuilt engine. Very, very little risk for Capcom to bring it to the Wii.
Same sorta goes for MP3. Yes, I know the graphics engine was rebuilt for the Wii version but still MP3 had a built in audience. Unless MP3 sucked(which it doesn't) the game was going make a buck.
Why as I game developer make a traditional new IP on the Wii when Nintendo is basically saying minigames, minigames, minigames?
Another thing, Nintendo is kinda stingy with money hats unlike Microsoft and Sony. Someone else said it earlier but it' worth saying again.
Title: RE: This just in: Developers and publishers still have no business sense!
Post by: couchmonkey on October 04, 2007, 04:37:53 AM
Nintendo is stingy with moneyhats because it has won. I know we're not seeing it yet and nobody believes me, but third party support is coming. We've already got way more support from Rockstar than ever before, and everybody's talking about how to make a buck on Wii...because if you can't, you're going to lose money this generation.
The thing is, people don't really seem to acknowledge all the support Nintendo's getting because the games aren't the main Resident Evil or Grand Theft Auto. I guess that's fair enough: the support needs to increase in quality as well as quantity. But if you look back at PS2, quantity is really where it kicks butt, not quality, and I believe that the huge quantity is what ultimately leads to a better overall third party lineup. I disagree with anyone who says Xbox or GameCube had a better third party lineup than PS2, but there's also no doubt that the majority of the third party games on PS2 are crap.
