Post by: Smash_Brother on September 22, 2007, 04:09:16 PM
So now that they've given us a MGS4 theme on the SSBB site, is anyone else starting to wonder why he's in the game? As much as I liked Twin Snakes, we've had 6 PSP MGS games to only 0 DS MGS games.
My point is, why is such awesome advertising potential being wasted on a character whose games cannot be enjoyed without buying Sony hardware?
Post by: Crimm on September 22, 2007, 04:25:03 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 22, 2007, 04:37:56 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 22, 2007, 04:48:55 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 22, 2007, 05:27:39 PM
Post by: IceCold on September 22, 2007, 06:26:58 PM
Post by: LuigiHann on September 22, 2007, 06:43:26 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 22, 2007, 06:52:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold Still, I hate the fact that it's free advertising for Sony in one of Nintendo's most revered franchises. Screw Kojima - maybe he'll actually regret his "purple lunchbox" comment one day.
See, this is EXACTLY what I mean.
When Snake was revealed, I immediately wondered what the hell Kojima had done to get back on Nintendo's good side. Comments like the purple lunch box bit and calling the Wii "regular TV" when compared to the "hollywood movie" that is the PS3 makes me wonder why Snake was allowed in this game.
Nintendo isn't stupid, which is why I keep expecting the announcement of SOMETHING by Kojima/Konami for the Wii sometime soon, and something BIG, not another half-assed effort.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 22, 2007, 07:02:19 PM
BTW, who is "The Team." Initially, it was a big ambiguous mystery we weren't supposed to know, just that Uematsu did the main theme. At that point, I wanted to say it was a division of Square-Enix, probably just from the obvious. Looking at the villains, I have to say, they look like Heartless, almost, and I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the Kingdom Hearts crew, at least some of those on art and design, were to be working on it. Any guesses now?
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 22, 2007, 07:07:41 PM
Post by: Mario on September 22, 2007, 08:02:52 PM
Post by: Kairon on September 22, 2007, 08:06:47 PM
/ducks
Post by: Crimm on September 22, 2007, 08:49:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
This is annoying me too. Nintendo are promoting a PS3 game to 5-10 million people who most likely wouldn't previously look at it. The MGS4 stage having awesome music doesn't help.
That's outright foolish. You don't think that Metal Gear Sold 4 isn't going to get hyped? You don't think that the people who play that kind of game aren't aware of it? Of course they are. MGS4 has been one of the PS3's last two ace in the holes. They'll hype it so much the Lair fiasco will look like a lack of advertisement.
Post by: Michael8983 on September 23, 2007, 12:45:20 AM
It's dominating Japan where MGS4 will be a non-issue because it's never been popular over there. At best, it MIGHT give the PS3 a small boost for a month in the US after its release. But it still won't see the kind of sales the Wii is enjoying at the moment.
Maybe they are promoting a competitor's game in a sense. But it's a competitor they are beating SO badly at the moment anyway.
Snake has appeared on Nintendo consoles before, so he's fair game in Smash Bros.
I don't see why we should be stuck with an outdated Snake just because his most recent games haven't made it over yet.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 23, 2007, 12:50:04 AM
The memory of his character won't survive this generation unless it's in Brawl.
Post by: Mario on September 23, 2007, 03:16:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: CrimmQuote
Originally posted by: Mario
This is annoying me too. Nintendo are promoting a PS3 game to 5-10 million people who most likely wouldn't previously look at it. The MGS4 stage having awesome music doesn't help.
That's outright foolish. You don't think that Metal Gear Sold 4 isn't going to get hyped? You don't think that the people who play that kind of game aren't aware of it? Of course they are. MGS4 has been one of the PS3's last two ace in the holes. They'll hype it so much the Lair fiasco will look like a lack of advertisement.
No I think it has a completely different audience to Smash Bros.
Post by: Adrock on September 23, 2007, 09:08:08 AM
Quote
My point is, why is such awesome advertising potential being wasted on a character whose games cannot be enjoyed without buying Sony hardware?
Snake's appearance in Brawl, I would think, is meant to draw in Metal Gear fans to Smash Bros., assuming they don't already like both series. It's hardly a fair trade so I agree with you. I would like to think that Nintendo is not stupid enough to allow this to happen without better compensation, but with Nintendo getting Twin Snakes on Gamecube being one of the worst deals ever, I kind of doubt it. It's almost like Nintendo is doing all these nice things for Konami in hopes that they'll return the favor someday.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 23, 2007, 09:20:50 AM
Post by: EasyCure on September 23, 2007, 09:53:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: AdrockQuote
My point is, why is such awesome advertising potential being wasted on a character whose games cannot be enjoyed without buying Sony hardware?
Snake's appearance in Brawl, I would think, is meant to draw in Metal Gear fans to Smash Bros., assuming they don't already like both series. It's hardly a fair trade so I agree with you. I would like to think that Nintendo is not stupid enough to allow this to happen without better compensation, but with Nintendo getting Twin Snakes on Gamecube being one of the worst deals ever, I kind of doubt it. It's almost like Nintendo is doing all these nice things for Konami in hopes that they'll return the favor someday.
it'll piss me off if all th eir doing is HOPING, they should be out there grabbing developers by the balls and saying "you like money dontcha!? get to work on a game, and a REAL game"
Post by: ThePerm on September 23, 2007, 01:05:11 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 23, 2007, 01:11:43 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 23, 2007, 02:17:32 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 23, 2007, 02:53:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCure
it'll piss me off if all th eir doing is HOPING, they should be out there grabbing developers by the balls and saying "you like money dontcha!? get to work on a game, and a REAL game"
I agree completely.
Kojima has nothing but terrible things to say about Nintendo for years and they include his character in SSBB?
I hope Nintendo got something else out of this deal...
On a somewhat side note, does anyone else find the idea of Snake choking Nintendo characters a bit...disturbing? I don't know how many others here played Twin Snakes, but that's how he grabs someone right before he snaps their neck.
Post by: Kairon on September 23, 2007, 02:59:12 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 23, 2007, 04:04:53 PM
Sorry to seem stubborn on this, but it's just not Nintendo's style to yield to a developer who spent the last generation ragging on them and ignoring their console.
Post by: Kairon on September 23, 2007, 04:15:59 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 23, 2007, 04:50:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
On a somewhat side note, does anyone else find the idea of Snake choking Nintendo characters a bit...disturbing? I don't know how many others here played Twin Snakes, but that's how he grabs someone right before he snaps their neck.
I certainly did. The even more disturbing thing is that its the shot that Konami has been showing off like crazy during their presentations.
I know the SSB series has you doing weird and even violent stuff to the other characters, but Snake's grab is certainly very realistic and they show the characters in a lot of discomfort and pain.
Some find it funny but I find it to be weird...
Post by: The Sailerman on September 23, 2007, 05:01:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I can understand Nintendo trying to appeal to a 3rd party whose philosophy line up with their new way of thinking, but Konami certainly isn't that company and Kojima isn't that kind of developer.
Sorry to seem stubborn on this, but it's just not Nintendo's style to yield to a developer who spent the last generation ragging on them and ignoring their console.
I think Nintendo may be thinking that if they allow Konami's premier character in one of their premier franchises, in return, Konami will produce exclusive games for Wii and DS.
Then again, it may just be that Sakurai and Kojima are good friends, so Sakurai is allowing the inclusion of Snake no matter what the opinions of Iwata, Miyamoto, etc. are.
Post by: Adrock on September 23, 2007, 06:47:57 PM
Quote
Sorry to seem stubborn on this, but it's just not Nintendo's style to yield to a developer who spent the last generation ragging on them and ignoring their console.
Again, Nintendo got f-ing pwn3d by Konami in the Twin Snakes deal. Accepting raw deals isn't really Nintendo's style either (they bitchslapped Sony and their Play Station SNES add-on), but it's happened before and it was Konami who got away with it.
What doesn't make sense to me is that Nintendo is allowing Konami and Hideo Kojima to advertise MGS4 in Smash Bros. Kojima went to Sakurai, not the other way around. Smash is Nintendo's franchise. They could veto anything so why aren't they? Maybe there is some deal we don't know about. Kojima has said that he wants to work on Wii. Yeah, developers say a lot of things, but you never know.......
Post by: EasyCure on September 23, 2007, 07:43:56 PM
Quote
Kojima went to Sakurai, not the other way around.
That's exactly why i feel Nintendo should have taken initiative and told Kojima “Sure, Snake can be in brawl, but what are you going to do for us?” as opposed to simply thinking “Oooh he likes our game, maybe he'll do something on Wii.”
There's no way to know how if either of those scenarios went down though, but my opinion is Nintendo should of used this as a deal makes to negotiate SOMETHING out of him rather than just hope for the best. Yes it would be nice to get some MGS fans onto the Brawl train and pick up extra money on those customers, but honestly if you've heard of MGS you've heard of Brawl already. I think there are more nintendo loyalist, however, that have played Smash Bros. but never played a MGS game before, so why would you go and advertise a gaming experience found almost exclusively on a competitors console? The ones that play as Snake for the first time in Brawl aren't going to go out and buy Twin Snakes for GC, their going to want to try out MGS4 because thats what Brawl is advertising. Even if the most loyal fan picks up TS for GC, it'll be used so Nintendo still won't be seeing money from it.
Now, chances are that Sakurai is left to make all final decisions when it comes to Brawl because Nintendo has faith in him, I'm just hoping they stepped in when it came to adding Snake to the fight.
Post by: Crimm on September 23, 2007, 07:48:31 PM
Post by: IceCold on September 23, 2007, 08:01:53 PM
QuoteBut the thing is, similar to what EasyCure was saying, the effect of the MGS fans buying Brawl is negligible. Smash Bros already appeals to a huge audience, and if anything, Snake exposure in the game will benefit MGS4 more than it will Smash Bros.
Snake's appearance in Brawl, I would think, is meant to draw in Metal Gear fans to Smash Bros.,
Post by: EasyCure on September 23, 2007, 08:18:47 PM
At this point all sony really has at after this holiday they've seemingly given up is a small chance from a big game.
so what if he loves the Smash Bros. games? That's not reason enough to want his character in the game, he wants money in his pocket, money he can make by exposing Snake to as many people as possible before MGS4 hits. When all is said and done he should be the one doing Nintendo the favors, not the other way around.
Even if it doesn't sell well because of the small ps3 uses base, nintendo can still call up Kojima when Brawl sales surpass MGS4 and be like “Hey look, your game sold X amount on ps3 but look, Brawl sold XX amount over Melee and thats partly due to your character being in it. Its obvious you've got some fans on our side of the fence, maybe you should make something just for us and see just how well those fans want your creations.” Thats the business approach i expect to be taken.
*FF purposefuly left out of statement
Post by: EasyCure on September 23, 2007, 08:21:58 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on September 23, 2007, 08:22:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: EasyCure
Hey look, your game sold X amount on ps3 but look, Brawl sold XX
Brawl outsells MGS4 by an 11 to 1 ratio, confirmed!
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 24, 2007, 07:09:58 AM
Makes sense if you think about it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 24, 2007, 07:26:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64 I'm sure Nintendo will be giving each third party developer that contributed to Brawl a piece of the SSB pie so I'm sure Kojima will be getting share.
Doubtful.
If I were a game developer with a game releasing to on the Wii which prominently featured a character, I'd gnaw off my left arm to get that character into Brawl for the advertising potential. They wouldn't need to pay me a cent because they're giving me the best advertising I could EVER hope for.
Nintendo fans are generally immensely xenophobic. I've watched some pretty awesome exclusive 3rd party games float past their noses and they don't bite.
SSB has the ability to pull players in for one character they like and, as a result, lead people to giving the other characters a chance because they become familiar with them. SSB did this for me as I bought it for Link and then went on to try out many other Nintendo games because I had been "around" the characters enough that they intrigued me. The fact that the trophies give a back story to these characters further serves to connect me with them.
Like I said, if I wanted guaranteed sales of my game on the Wii and that game had a recognizable character, I'd offer to do pretty much anything and hope that Sakurai doesn't secretly lust for hairy gaijins.
Post by: Kairon on September 24, 2007, 07:31:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Nintendo fans are generally immensely xenophobic. I've watched some pretty awesome exclusive 3rd party games float past their noses and they don't bite.
Yeah, this is exactly what's caused me to evolve into an all-gamer, a response to everything about the old-Nintendo-Fan-me that I grew to consider hypocritical.
Quote
hope that Sakurai doesn't secretly lust for hairy gaijins.
You mean UncleBob?
Post by: couchmonkey on September 24, 2007, 07:38:41 AM
I think this is just a case of Nintendo not being as---uh, jerks. A respected game designer begged to have his character in the game and they said why not? It's not how things would have worked under Yamauchi, but frankly, things have improved a lot since Yamauchi retired.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 24, 2007, 07:42:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
You mean UncleBob?
If I can offer up UB as a sacrifice and get my character into the next SSB game after Brawl, then sure.
Post by: EasyCure on September 24, 2007, 07:44:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
What EasyCure said makes A LOT of sense. Even if MGS 4 is a massive PS3 hit considering the high costs of developing for the PS3 it will hardly make a profit. So it wouldn't be surprising if Kojima is using Snake in Brawl as a way to mass promote MGS 4 AND get some profit out of his appearance. I'm sure Nintendo will be giving each third party developer that contributed to Brawl a piece of the SSB pie so I'm sure Kojima will be getting share. But in order to get a big piece he must do something in return.
Makes sense if you think about it.
respect knuckles for Pap
its about time i made a usefull post around here.
I wasnt thinking along the same line as you, when you wrote that Kojima will be getting a share of the Brawl sales-pie. Honestly, i dont see it happening, not a big slice that is, but of course he has to get a small share because of character rights. Who really thinks Nintendo likes sharing their printed money?
I'm under the impression that they let his character into what will no doubt be the best selling wii game of the year as a favor, and in return kojima has to show some love to the wii (and/or ds) in game form. Built from the ground up game form.
If all that emerges from this is a MGS2-3 port/wii-incarnation, then Nintendo really dropped the ball. They know they need 3rd parties to make the types of games that they have no interest in making, and this is the perfect opportunity for them to snatch up a deal with konami/kojima for some "tradditional" games on their system.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 24, 2007, 07:52:16 AM
Cuz it was drowned out from Soulcalibur 2's hype.
Post by: Adrock on September 24, 2007, 08:38:44 AM
Quote
That's exactly why i feel Nintendo should have taken initiative and told Kojima “Sure, Snake can be in brawl, but what are you going to do for us?” as opposed to simply thinking “Oooh he likes our game, maybe he'll do something on Wii.”
Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that since that's the case, why is Nintendo letting Kojima and Konami advertise the crap out of titles that have never graced Nintendo hardware? It's seems really dumb of Nintendo to willingly let that happen without some nice return gesture from Konami.
Quote
I think this is just a case of Nintendo not being as---uh, jerks. A respected game designer begged to have his character in the game and they said why not? It's not how things would have worked under Yamauchi, but frankly, things have improved a lot since Yamauchi retired.
That thought has crossed my mind. However, Nintendo could have allowed Snake to be in Smash Bros. without all the blatant references to games that were never on Nintendo hardware. Why the MGS4 theme? Why Sons of Liberty Snake? Why the Cipher as Snake's 3rd jump also from SoL? Have him backflip off a missile or something, at least he did that in Twin Snakes (as flippin' lame as that was). Make sh*t up if need be, but don't advertise Playstation games.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 24, 2007, 09:09:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
That thought has crossed my mind. However, Nintendo could have allowed Snake to be in Smash Bros. without all the blatant references to games that were never on Nintendo hardware. Why the MGS4 theme? Why Sons of Liberty Snake? Why the Cipher as Snake's 3rd jump also from SoL? Have him backflip off a missile or something, at least he did that in Twin Snakes (as flippin' lame as that was). Make sh*t up if need be, but don't advertise Playstation games.
This is the crux of my concern as well.
I just naturally assumed that we'd have some kind of MGS game announced for Wii by now, maybe even a RE approach where they bring all the MGS games over to the Wii one by one, even if they are just ports with Wiimote capability, and then get a new MGS game at the end.
The advertising potential for Snake is just plain wasted if Nintendo fans will have to drop $660 to play his latest game.
Post by: The Sailerman on September 24, 2007, 10:19:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
Again, Nintendo got f-ing pwn3d by Konami in the Twin Snakes deal. Accepting raw deals isn't really Nintendo's style either (they bitchslapped Sony and their Play Station SNES add-on), but it's happened before and it was Konami who got away with it.
How exactly did Nintendo get screwed over on the Twin Snakes deal? I wasn't a fan of Metal Gear Solid until I picked up used copies of MGS:The Twin Snakes and MGS2: Substance (for Xbox) fairly recently, so I'm unaware of the terms of the deal Nintendo and Konami came to.
Post by: Adrock on September 24, 2007, 07:09:54 PM
I'm assuming Nintendo hoped that a Metal Gear title would help boost Gamecube sales which, unfortunately, didn't happen. Maybe it would have had Nintendo negotiated a brand new game instead of a remake or if Silicon Knights/Konami redesigned Shadow Moses so as to take advantage of the MGS2 style controls so you couldn't, for example, beat Ocelot by just going into 1st person mode.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 24, 2007, 07:32:17 PM
Honestly, I love remakes, though. I'd take the remake, most likely.
Post by: The Sailerman on September 24, 2007, 08:05:21 PM
The only thing I regret about not owning a PS2 is not being able to play MGS3 and Okami.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 24, 2007, 08:17:09 PM
Post by: The Sailerman on September 25, 2007, 01:54:29 AM
Either way, I guess it was a pretty bad deal in the end for Nintendo.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 25, 2007, 04:42:08 AM
That's why I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop here.
Post by: Louieturkey on September 25, 2007, 06:36:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Nintendo DID get Mario DDR out of the deal, which sold pretty well.
That's why I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop here.
I'm guessing they are waiting to announce anything new in this regard (if anything new exists) for after MGS4 is released on the PS3. Most people assume that a 360 port of it will happen, but they are waiting for it to be released on the PS3 before announcing it. Maybe Konami is doing this with a Wii MGS game as well, just so MGS4 gets all the hype and another MGS game does not interfere with that hype.
Post by: Grant10k on September 25, 2007, 07:06:03 AM
PlayStations are known for having Metal Gear games, it's what they do. That's a FACT. Nintendo's are NOT known for having Metal Gear games (unless your are old school). If you go up to someone and say, "Have you checked out that Metal Gear game for that Nintendo system? It's awsome!", they will respond, "Oh, you meant to say either PlayStation or PlayStation 2. Clearly you did not mean to say 'Nintendo', as my in-brain Googleing of '+Nintendo +Metal_Gear -Twin_Snakes' turned up 0 results".
The only think that might happen is that ads for MGS4 will give some free exposure to SSBB, but more likely they won't effect each other very much.
As for Kojima's evil Nintendo comments, I think It's a simple matter of putting Business Sense before personal endeavors. If a game company was pitching an idea to Nintendo, "This game will be the next unholy union of Goldeneye, Halo, Tribes 2, and WoW in multilayer awsomeocity, and here is PROOF, you cannot fail and will make trillions of dollars." Nintendo is not going to say, "Yeah, well you called us 'Poopie heads' 5 years ago, and now you want us to mutually benefit each other? Go away, good luck finding a publisher who wants to make money".
A good business person isn't going to care about some guy calling it's product a lunch box. All that matters is what ends up on retail shelves (or rather what flies off retail shelves after marketing). If a picture of snake on the box helps sell 1,000 more copies of SSBB, it will be worth it.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 25, 2007, 05:50:28 PM
Post by: Michael8983 on September 26, 2007, 12:27:57 AM
The PS3 is a bomb with, at best, the potential to be the Gamecube of this generation IF IT'S LUCKY. Then there's 360 which is non-existant in Japan, which makes it an unlikely choice for a developer like Kojima who seems very loyal to the gamers of his homeland. It will probably get a MGS4 port, but after that, I suspect Kojima will focus on more original projects that will be a better fit on the Wii. Unless MGS4 somehow miraculously makes a profit, I doubt Konami will even want there to be a MGS5.
MGS4 may have been his cash-cow for some years but titles like Boktai and Lunar Knights prove Kojima has a very Miyamoto-like interest in developing more unique titles. I'm sure he's looking forward to bring something like that to the Wii.
Post by: couchmonkey on September 26, 2007, 04:12:16 AM
Will Konami return the favour somehow? Maybe. We'll never really be able to say because most Japanese devs are gravitating towards Wii anyway.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 26, 2007, 05:23:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Grant10k Nintendo is not going to say, "Yeah, well you called us 'Poopie heads' 5 years ago, and now you want us to mutually benefit each other? Go away, good luck finding a publisher who wants to make money".
Actually, he ragged on them around the launch of the Wii when he said that it was crap compared to the PS3.
And as for being mutually beneficial, aside from attracting a few MGS fans, I don't see much in the way of Nintendo's benefit.
Post by: LuigiHann on September 26, 2007, 05:32:32 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 26, 2007, 06:58:28 AM
I think there was a reason beyond just wanting the fans of MGS.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 27, 2007, 07:13:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I agree (since the PS3+MGS is $660 goddamn dollars), but if they added Snake because they wanted the MGS fans, that opens the door for adding Cloud for the FF fans and Tony Vercetti for the GTA fans and Master Chief for the Halo fans, etc.
I think there was a reason beyond just wanting the fans of MGS.
I must explain something. What you mean is Cloud for the Final Fantasy VII fans. Final Fantasy fans like all the FF games and started playing them since the NES. FF VII fans are mainly fangirls who love pretty emo men and fanboys who played FF VII and instantly declared it the best game ever.
Just a heads up.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 27, 2007, 08:26:21 AM
Edgar Figaro for the REAL FF fans, then.
