Post by: AzureNightmare on September 12, 2007, 01:19:58 PM
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=14379
Back in the days of the N64 and GameCube, if you said to some one that Nintendo would once again be back on top, you would be laughed at. If you said it on a gaming forum, you would be laughed at and either given some ridiculous forum title, or be banned.
Well, the impossible has come to pass according to the Japanese financial publication, Financial Times. This publication has collected the sales data of every major region, collected by Enterbrain in Japan, NPD Group in the United States, and GfK in Europe respectively. The report issued by the Financial Times states that to date, there have been 9 million Wiis, 8.9 million Xbox360s, and 3.7 million PS3s sold worldwide. This marks the first time in almost two decades that Nintendo has climbed to the top of the worldwide video game market.
One analyst attributed the quick sales of the Wii to it selling strong in all three major regions, compared to the Xbox 360, which only sells strong in 2 major regions, despite the full year's head start it had on Nintendo's console.
The combined success of the DS and Wii has allowed Nintendo to skyrocket past Sony and embed itself deep within the list of top 10 most valuable companies. Furthermore, the success is likely to continue as the Wii has the highest purchase intent among consumers, which is according to a report released by BrandIntel.
Post by: Patchkid15 on September 12, 2007, 02:10:21 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on September 12, 2007, 02:10:38 PM
Post by: Louieturkey on September 12, 2007, 02:20:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
All I ask is that this news gets me a good RE5 port.
If that happens, I may have to buy it twice just like every other RE game sans 0 & 1(only on GC). One for the Wii controls and the other on the PS3 for the pretty visuals.
Post by: UncleBob on September 12, 2007, 02:26:03 PM
Post by: Ceric on September 12, 2007, 02:55:29 PM
Post by: Arbok on September 12, 2007, 02:58:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
We knew this a few weeks ago.
Yeah, except these numbers are much lower than the general consensus... aren't both over 10 million? At least I hope the 360 is by now, considering they shipped that many at the end of last year.
Post by: Mashiro on September 12, 2007, 02:58:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: LouieturkeyQuote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
All I ask is that this news gets me a good RE5 port.
If that happens, I may have to buy it twice just like every other RE game sans 0 & 1(only on GC). One for the Wii controls and the other on the PS3 for the pretty visuals.
Well Capcom did make like record profits or something this quarter right? And RE4 is selling like crazy (750k correct?) so I think Capcom is super happy with Nintendo right now . . . and if they aren't but should be.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on September 12, 2007, 03:19:15 PM
Post by: Djunknown on September 12, 2007, 03:29:08 PM
With the PS3 sitting at 600 USD (Not to mention more expensive everywhere else in the world), its going to play catch-up for a while.
*Puts on devil's advocate hat*
I'm still skeptical that devs and pubs will jump on the Wii. even though this gap between the systems will no doubt widen. If you combine the PS3/360 numbers, that's 12.6. Someone like Namco, Capcom, Square-Enix will put their flagship games on both systems, while the Wii will get the good side projects. My circumstantial evidence are the previews I see in gamer rags that 90 percent of the time are PS3/360. PS3/360 won't get exclusive bragging rights like they did in the past, but by combining the two markets, they have better chances of breaking even/making a profit.
Long story short: Don't hold your breath for RE5:Wii Edition
*Takes off hat*
Yay for Nintendo. NCL/NOA/NOE should pop some expensive champagne, or overpriced liquor normally seen in bad hip-hop videos...
Post by: AzureNightmare on September 12, 2007, 03:46:11 PM
Post by: Arbok on September 12, 2007, 03:50:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Djunknown
PS3/360 won't get exclusive bragging rights like they did in the past, but by combining the two markets, they have better chances of breaking even/making a profit.
True... if you ignore the fact that it's cheaper to develop games for the Wii compared to the other two.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 12, 2007, 03:56:43 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 12, 2007, 05:01:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: AzureNightmare
It was a dream come true and an absolute honor to be able to post that piece of gaming news.
Not to lessen you glory moment but its too bad it was originally posted in the Wii Sales thread and in the Fun with Numbers thread weeks ago.
Post by: UERD on September 12, 2007, 05:03:48 PM
Post by: Kairon on September 12, 2007, 05:13:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Djunknown
PS3/360 won't get exclusive bragging rights like they did in the past, but by combining the two markets, they have better chances of breaking even/making a profit.
But what happens when the Wii's worldwide install base exceeds the combined PS3 and XBox 360 installed base? It's gonna happen soon, with the Wii over the XBox 360 worldwide, that leaves about 3 or 4 million PS3s to outsell. That could be done in 5 or 6 normal months. Holidays though....
Quote
Originally posted by: UERD
Does this mean we finally get some unless you're Kairon real honest-to-goodness JRPGs?
Oh god YES PLEASE! I'm enjoying Breath of Fire II right now sooo much
I just hope that MS stops buying up every friggin' Japanese developer they can, is it true they moneyhatted NIS to make JRPGs on the 360? If so, HATE!!!!! And Atlus, WHY are you sending Persona 4 to the PS3? NSAHBHIANLJANJANKJLDANLJDNA Give it to Wiiiiiii! We bought your Trauma Center, just give us a chance to buy your other games!
Post by: UncleBob on September 12, 2007, 05:18:25 PM
With Halo 3 coming out this month, will Wii still be on top?
Post by: Kairon on September 12, 2007, 05:22:26 PM
Post by: IceCold on September 12, 2007, 05:26:49 PM
QuoteThat's exactly what I was wondering. Even if these are only until the end of July, Microsoft blew their load, so to speak, last year by shipping those 10 mil, then held off for a while. 360s have still been selling, albeit at a slow clip, so the figures should be at least 10 million by now.
Originally posted by: ArbokQuote
Originally posted by: Ceric
We knew this a few weeks ago.
Yeah, except these numbers are much lower than the general consensus... aren't both over 10 million? At least I hope the 360 is by now, considering they shipped that many at the end of last year.
EDIT: The news, even if it's a bit old, is just amazing. The last year and a half has been constant doubting of Nintendo, yet they have pulled through in the best way possible. Congrats.
Post by: Kairon on September 12, 2007, 05:28:12 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on September 12, 2007, 09:10:42 PM
Post by: Michael8983 on September 12, 2007, 11:57:20 PM
Even if the 360 did manage to start selling at an even pace with the Wii in the US and even Europe, the Wii's continued dominance in Japan will still increase its lead worldwide.
Post by: pSYCO-gAMER321 on September 13, 2007, 05:33:55 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2007, 05:59:07 AM
But maybe now the Wii will actually get, you know, third party support that doesn't suck and the Wii will become one of Nintendo's best consoles. I know many people here really really like the Wii but you got to admit that it's third party lineup is pretty weak for a market leading console. That should change. Hell, that BETTER change.
I think Nintendo should send a thank-you card to Sony for f*cking up pretty much everything with the PS3. Without Sony's severe incompetance this day would have never been possible. Now Nintendo found a formula that worked and was dead-on about the change in the Japanese market. But still, like Sony before them, they got lucky and benefited from the previous market leader being a complete dumbass.
Post by: UncleBob on September 13, 2007, 06:08:58 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2007, 06:21:43 AM
Post by: UncleBob on September 13, 2007, 06:25:54 AM
"So far" the Wii is the worse console from Nintendo ever. Even though it's been out less than a year. Which other Nintendo console (or any console for that matter) had a *stellar* line up within the first year? I mean, it's just not a statement that makes any sense.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2007, 08:22:51 AM
It's not an issue of the lineup being stellar but just being BETTER than the Wii lineup is right now. The Wii has, what, ONE really awesome game that isn't either a dumbed down non-game or was originally designed for the Cube? Even the N64 with it's really shallow release schedule had a better lineup at this point. It had Super Mario 64, Pilotwings 64, Wave Race 64, Star Fox 64 and Mario Kart 64 (geez Nintendo liked putting "64" in the title). Those are just first party games and that just CRUSHES the current Wii lineup. The Gamecube at this point had Wave Race, Rogue Leader, SSBM, Pikmin, Eternal Darkness, and Super Mario Sunshine which again I would consider better than the current Wii lineup.
Metroid Prime 3 and Super Paper Mario are the only EXCLUSIVE Wii titles that I would put on par with the games listed. If Resident Evil 4 and Twilight Princess are counted then the lineup gets WAY better but I don't need a Wii to play those games, do I?
I'm not saying that the Xbox 360 or PS3 are doing any better (the X360's first year wasn't so hot) and the DS had this problem too. Being the worst Nintendo console isn't even that bad to begin with since all four of them had some absolute must-play exclusives. Since it's number one I think the Wii should have no problem ending up better than the Cube for example and I'd only predict it behind the N64 because Nintendo was on such a roll then, releasing "best game ever" candidates a few times a year.
"By that logic, I could say that the *next* Nintendo console is the worse Nintendo console ever without *anything* being known about it."
No you couldn't. At this point all the other consoles had zero games and no info revealed about them which logically would make them all a tie.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 13, 2007, 08:35:32 AM
Post by: UncleBob on September 13, 2007, 08:58:36 AM
I don't see what the game being "originally designed for the Cube" has anything to do with it. Star Fox 64 was basically a reworked version of Star Fox 2 from the SNES - yet you're more than happy to consider it a stellar N64 title.
And this isn't even counting the "non-games" that you're to manly to enjoy like Big Brain Academy, Wario Ware, Mario Party 8 and, of course, Wii Sports. (Sorry, I did fudge a little to put Brawl on the list, even though it'll be out after the one year anniversary of the Wii...)
Post by: AManatee2 on September 13, 2007, 09:29:25 AM
I will admit that I haven't finished Super Paper Mario and I've had it for quite some time. I just got... bored. Sorry. Seriously. When I realized I had more fun speed-running through Mario NES and whatnot, I got even more bored. And believe me, I played Mario NES on Wii far longer than Super Paper Mario.
With the N64 I felt I had the heavy-hitting console based solely on the handful of titles that Ian mentioned because that handful of titles were deep and severely fun. I still played them all over again and then some. The biggest downfall of the N64 was it's dying controller.
And while I am truly looking forward to playing through Prime 3 and Mario Galaxy (oh yes), It's just sad to say that I've been mostly disappointed with the line-up thus far. I knew it at the point where I was playing the .skate demo on 360 more than a game I hadn't even finished yet on Wii. And in the past I've been what you forum-ites would call a "fan-boy".
I'm a gamer, and I need games. Fun. Involving. Games.
EDIT: I see that post. I will admit I played the hell out of Excitetruck, and I'm really looking forward to the thrid-party developed NitroBike by the N64 developers of Excitebike 64. But even then, I feel Excitetruck lacked some severely needed replay value. Oh, if only online, if only.
Post by: Faithinchaos on September 13, 2007, 09:39:56 AM
So Nintendo stands, quietly nowhere in the middle this, somewhere off in left field minding its own P's and Q's. Its overpriced for what it is, but then again maybe not - I would come home from work earlier this year and find my parents playing on MY Wii, having a splendid time with Wii Bowling, almost sheepishly telling me that they couldn't wait to ask. That was a great moment, my parents sneaking time in on MY console. Something about that moment brought something full circle to me, and was actually a little eerie.
They have their own now, BTW.
Plus, don't buy into this HD nonsense, please. You know how much money is made on each HDTV sold? Enough for the industry itself to offer incentives and kickbacks for ANYTHING that will broadcast in HD- networks, TV Shows, and I'm supposing that includes consoles as well (that don't see a price break despite the stipend).
Screw that noise. Call me in five or six years when they aren't at least %100 markup and then I'll be concerned about HD, when I wont have to bend over while buying one.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 13, 2007, 09:51:55 AM
Ian is also contradicting himself. He admits that the Wii has a long way to go and that many consoles suffered through the same thing yet he is quick to put the label on it based on his own experiences and first year performance.
Its just reeks of bitter fanboyism. Its almost as if Ian was betrayed by Nintendo in the worst way possible and just can't forgive them no matter how well they are doing and how smartly they are playing their cards.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2007, 10:21:17 AM
And Star Fox 64 clearly makes use of the N64. It could never have been possible, as is, on the SNES. Super Paper Mario pretty much looks exactly like it did when it was on the Gamecube. I count it anyway so it really doesn't matter but right now Metroid Prime 3 is the only Wii title that really appears to be pushing the Wii hardware.
You guys are overreacting on this "worst Nintendo console yet" stuff. "Worst" is a relative term. So far I regard the Wii lineup to be quite inferior to the corresponding lineups of the other Nintendo consoles from the same time. So it's the worst. That makes perfect sense. One of them HAS to be the worst of the five by definition unless they're all equal.
"He admits that the Wii has a long way to go and that many consoles suffered through the same thing"
Yes but it isn't the other four Nintendo consoles that suffered though the same thing. The PS2 did. The DS did. The Xbox 360 did. The PS3 currently is. The NES, SNES, N64, and Gamecube did not. As the only Nintendo console to suffer this problem it is therefore the worst of the five at this point in it's life.
I saw this same tolerance of mediocrity with the DS. The DS lineup SUCKED for months after launch to the point that the PSP launched with more titles than the DS had accumulated at that point. Some here bought it for a port of a game that ALREADY OWNED only this new version had worse controls. I think we as Nintendo fans deserve better than what we've got so far on the Wii. The third party support is horrible for example. I want to see improvement so I'm expressing my lack of satisfaction. Being a Nintendo fan doesn't mean swallowing what the give you no matter what. The acceptance of the incredibly sh!tty DS launch for example probably contributed to the Wii's similarly lazy launch. Nintendo thought they could again get away with half-assing it again and they were right. Next time we'll get the same thing because they know they can get away with it.
I want the Wii to be better. I don't want it to be Nintendo's worst console. I would rather the Cube be that. I want to see Nintendo make the best console they can. I'm nervous that the Wii with THIS lineup got to number one. I'm nervous that Nintendo will slack off because of it. They've got some great games on the way. Let's hope those games sell well. Let's hope Nintendo continues to keep that momenum going and that third parties are encouraging to make better Wii games. A number one selling Wii that attracts no better than this level third party support provides no benefit to us.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 13, 2007, 10:37:11 AM
Long story short the Wii launch was NOT garbage and people ate it up not because they were mindless fanboys, they ate it up because it was GOOD.
Oh and do I need to remind you that the DS became a massive success after its disastrous launch? Before you use the "casual game crap made it sell" there are many great games for it right now, including the blockbuster future release of Dragon quest IX.
Second, the N64 and GC never went through a dead spot in releases? Huh? If I'm not mistaken many fans bitched that the N64 didn't have any games, that it suffered from constant delays and that there were many months in which no games were released. Hell, many people praised Sony because a lot of games were released for the Playstation. There was always something new to play. The N64 does have some of the best games ever but it certainly wasn't perfect and to say that it didn't suffer game droughts is just silly. Same with the GC. True many great games were released but after the killer apps were released there was nothing else to look forward to.
Finally, you are very quick to judge the system. Its only been a year. While its true that the system can do better its unfairly to put the label on it. And once more, calling it "the worst Nintendo console" is just childish.
I hate to say this but you definitely need to rethink the way you look at Nintendo and games in general. I've never seen anyone take so deeply to heart the businesses of a company. I know some friends that are hardcore Apple loyalists but have never felt the emotion you feel towards Nintendo.
Not saying that you can't praise or criticize Nintendo but it just looks like you are taking this a tad too far.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 13, 2007, 10:45:26 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2007, 11:04:42 AM
I'm not talking about dead spots in releases. The Cube had a horrible drought. I'm talking about a rocky first year where there's very little that worth a damn at all. When the N64 had a game it was a really killer game. The Cube wasn't so hot but it had a better launch than the Wii so at this point it had a better lineup.
"Oh and do I need to remind you that the DS became a massive success after its disastrous launch?"
Don't need to. And I'm not talking about success because the Wii obviously has that. And just as the DS improved so hopefully should the Wii. That doesn't make the DS at about the 10 month mark NOT a really sh!tty videogame system. I'd consider that to be worse than the Wii at this point.
"Finally, you are very quick to judge the system. Its only been a year."
And I'm judging at about 10 months compared to the other consoles at the same time which is a fair and logical comparison.
"Second, you can bitch all you want about it being a 'casual game' but Wii Sports did a far better job of selling the Wii than ANY DS launch game did for the DS. The third party support wasn't perfect but many of the titles were solid."
I'm not talking about success I'm talking about quality. Sales don't mean anything in this arguement. Many horrible games have fantastic sales and many great games bomb. WiiSports is a fun title that I'm really glad I didn't have to pay for it (though since the Wii costs more here than in Japan I guess I was forced to buy it). It's fun but limited and intentionally so because of the non-gamer focus. Twilight Princess is a Gamecube game. If you own a Gamecube and bought a Wii specifically for that game you're a sucker and Nintendo ripped you off. And the third party support sucked then and sucks now. Take away the non-exclusive Zelda game and the Wii launch lineup is really crappy. I don't care how much it sold. My whole point is that it's kind of a bummer for me that Nintendo finally got back on top with THIS console. With THIS weak launch lineup and weak third party support and emphasis on the mainstream.
"I hate to say this but you definitely need to rethink the way you look at Nintendo and games in general. I've never seen anyone take so deeply to heart the businesses of a company."
What about those that see the need to defend everything Nintendo does no matter if it benefits them or deprives them of something? What about those who never wish to see fault in Nintendo? You can accuse me of being too critical. If that's your opinion of me you're allowed to have it, though I don't think it's accurate. Why do those that always praise Nintendo not get the same grief? There are people here that seem to think that being a fan of Nintendo means liking them and supporting them always. I've pretty much seen some outright DOUBLETHINK here in attempts to defend Nintendo's actions. Hell this whole discussion seems to have resulted because I dared express a negative opinion about the Wii.
I think at this point the Wii is the worst of the Nintendo consoles and considering that Nintendo consoles are typically of high quality that's not even necessarily a bad thing. I've got some logical reasons to have formed this opinion and yet this like a big controversy. If I should rethink how I look at Nintendo I don't think I'm the only one.
Post by: UERD on September 13, 2007, 11:28:54 AM
Quote
third party support
I would argue that third-party support is deficient right now because of the fact that very few developers were anticipating that the Wii would do any better than third, or at best tied for second, this generation. If you want verification, you can go to any mainstream gaming website (or even many business websites) and look through their archives for analyst predictions. The general consensus seemed to be Sony keeping the lead, MS possibly tying them for second, and the Wii a distant third again. People said that the controller was nothing more than a gimmick, the console was significantly underpowered, the unimpressive online service would play a role in keeping them last, etc.
Now, if you were the person working for a studio in charge of deciding what platforms you were going to develop for next generation, and what games you were going to develop, and you were making these decisions months before the Wii launched, what would you logically think? Probably something like this: "PS3 is probably going to have a huge audience, and the 360's lead is rock solid, so let's develop our cinematic, big-budget FPSes, RPGs, and traditional franchises for those two consoles. Wii sounds interesting, but Nintendo is going to have to work real hard to gain back marketshare, and the hardware is weak, and the controller is unproven, so let's do some cheap-to-develop casual games for the system or some second-tier franchises so that we can call ourselves platform-agnostic." Why would you do otherwise? How would you justify developing big-budget games for the Wii to the person in charge of greenlighting projects?
It doesn't end there, though. Even after the Wii was released, developers had no reason to believe that initial Wii sales would sustain themselves through the holiday season and beyond. They weren't going to make a snap decision to start devoting serious resources to the Wii when millions of dollars worth of development money was at stake. So that's another couple of months after the release of the Wii where developers still didn't have a good reason to start spending large amounts of money to support the Wii.
It's been what, ten months? How long does it take to make a really good game? Not eight months, not necessarily a year, but quite a bit longer. So I think people have a good reason to be skeptical of claims that the Wii is 'not living up to its third-party potential'. In another couple of months, we'll be in a better position to judge- there will be new product announcements, commitments, etc. Maybe events will prove or disprove this argument. Maybe third-parties will stay away from the console for good, at which point this argument becomes null and void. But saying that 'Nintendo has dropped the ball on third-party' at this point in time is shooting blindly into the dark.
Post by: UncleBob on September 13, 2007, 11:31:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
UncleBob why are you including two games that are not out yet for the Wii?
Because those two games will be out in the first year of the Wii's life (well, really close, in the case of SSBB). As I said, the Wii hasn't even been out a year and you're confident in your claim that it's Nintendo's worst system ever. Before the year is up, we'll have Super Mario Galaxy and almost have SSBB - so I feel okay about adding them to the list. But heck, take them and the VC off and you're at the same amount of "Stellar" games you had for the N64.
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Plus the entire Virtual Console should not be included. Games from old consoles don't count for the obvious reason that no one has to buy the new console to play it.
Unless these old games are re-released for the new console and aren't a reasonable purchase on an older console. Seriously, there are great games on the VC that you can't easily get elsewhere. Counting them are fine, IMHO. We're looking at all the games you can purchase for the Wii right now, right?
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
If you own a Cube buying a Wii for Twilight Princess and Resident Evil 4 wouldn't be a very logical buy.
First off, that *if* is a pretty big if... I mean, how many people still own their Game Cube? Additionally, it could be a logical buy if you want the awesome wide screen display on Zelda or want the neat-o controls on RE4. Your comment is like saying that getting an XBox to play a game you can play on your GameCube isn't a logical buy, even if the XBox version is online.
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
And Star Fox 64 clearly makes use of the N64. It could never have been possible, as is, on the SNES. Super Paper Mario pretty much looks exactly like it did when it was on the Gamecube.
Is that so? I didn't know you managed to play though the entire GameCube version of the game. Additionally, I didn't know games were only about their graphics. So what if Super Paper Mario looked just like what it would have on the Game Cube version - would you have had the waggle controls on the GCN?
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I count it anyway so it really doesn't matter but right now Metroid Prime 3 is the only Wii title that really appears to be pushing the Wii hardware.
You have a weird way of enjoying games. See, when I play games, I like to play games I enjoy. I could care less if they "push the hardware". Doesn't me a thing to me. One of my favorite games on the GBA is the Game and Watch Gallery collection... but then, that's probably some stupid mini-game collection you don't care about, eh?
All well, so Ian thinks the Wii is the worst Nintendo console ever. Guess it doesn't really matter, as the Wii has OUTSOLD every other current generation console... heck, at this rate, it's going to outsell the GameCube, XBox. But poor Ian. If only he'd learn to play games because their fun instead of only playing games that "push the hardware" and look pretty.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2007, 12:15:41 PM
I play games because they're fun. I don't find Nintendo's non-games fun because they're dumbed-down to a point where they don't hold my interest and thus get boring quickly. Boring = not fun.
"So what if Super Paper Mario looked just like what it would have on the Game Cube version - would you have had the waggle controls on the GCN?"
No. There's no need to use motion gestures to replace buttons when there is already enough buttons on the controller. Never use "waggle" as justification for motion control. That's the exact type of g!mmicky usage that I protest, and use as proof that the remote is not a valid replacement for the old design. It's like is someone accuses Nintendo of being k!ddy and then you use Wind Waker to defend that it's not. When pushing motion control promote logical usage like WiiSports or Metroid Prime 3 where the game could likely not have been done with the old design. "Waggle" just shows the Super Paper Mario not only could have been done on the Cube but would have likely had more accurate controls if it did.
So why are you thread crapping? Cut it out, its getting really old.
-The Management
Post by: Kairon on September 13, 2007, 12:30:32 PM
... basically, it comes down to this: the conventional wisdom that software is more important than hardware is misleading, if not false. You have to look at Nintendo games as the whole package, the way Nintendo does: Videogames are BOTH hardware and software. It's a union, a combination, a complete integration that means you can't be narrow-minded or have a one-track vision of what needs to be done.
The Wii hardware enables the Wii software. The Wii software sells the hardware. It's a yin and yang, a balance, a relationship that will be at its strongest when both sides feed into and complement the other.
That's one reason why the Wii is one of Nintendo's best consoles ever, in my opinion a better piece of videogame hardware than the SNES or Gamecube. It isn't just a lump of technology simply flopped down waiting to be ravaged for graphical output by developers over and over again. Instead, it's an enabler of gaming, a muse, an oracle, a partner, and finally something that can contribute to the world of gaming instead of just serving stuff up on a platter mutely.
The Wii doesn't just sit there passively like the PS3 and wait for the world to have its way with it. Instead, it stares the world down with a question, a challenge, a dare to create something new, different, special, unique... and out of the ordinary.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 13, 2007, 12:47:00 PM
And the world responds by giving it last-gen ports with new waggle controls. With a console the games are everything. The N64 challenged the world more than the SNES did but the SNES is widely regarded as better because it had way more awesome games. The Virtual Boy challenged the world and was clearly innovative but is easily Nintendo's worst videogame system. Computer technology is just a tool. The software is everything or else the hardware is just a clump of nifty looking chips and doodads. From a hardware point of view the Cube was pretty damn good. The controller was really comfy and the console had great graphics and short load times and was very durable and reliable. The PS2 in comparison was underpowered, had a really uncomfortable controller and the damn thing broke or malfunctioned easily.
Get back on topic and quit picking fights. This is your last warning.
- The Management
Post by: Kairon on September 13, 2007, 01:23:39 PM
What I'm saying Ian, is that the Wii is a much better "tool" for making games than you give it credit for. Sure, the GameCube was technically impressive, but it was just another hammer. The PS3 and XBox 360 are just bigger, shinier hammers. When that's all you have, all videogames will ever end up as are nails.
The Wii is an altogether different sort of tool, and that's why it's succeeding so wildly. It's the first videogame hardware in a long while to suggest that there's more to gaming than pounding buttons. Sure, as a hammer, (piece of technical graphical hardware) it's very lackluster. But there's gotta be more in the gaming toolbox than just nails and hammers, dontcha think?
... so in conclusion, I agree with you Ian. The Nintendo Wii is the worst "hammer" that Nintendo has made in a long while. But it's a great... uh... screwdriver. Yeah. The Wii is a great screwdriver. And people need screwdrivers.
Post by: UncleBob on September 13, 2007, 01:29:07 PM
Correction. Wii like waggle. Go buy yourself a 360 or PS3. It sounds like the Wii just isn't for you.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 13, 2007, 01:41:29 PM
Sports is only as hard as the opponents you face. It's a game which has universal appeal, yes, but at the highest level, the game is incredibly deep.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 13, 2007, 01:44:13 PM
Simply put the Wii is not for gamers who just wanted a highly technological GC. It breaks tradition, and not everybody is ready to leave tradition behind.
Post by: King of Twitch on September 13, 2007, 01:59:49 PM
Post by: Mashiro on September 13, 2007, 02:03:14 PM
Quote
Go buy yourself a 360 or PS3. It sounds like the Wii just isn't for you.
I think everyone on these forums realize it is what he should do . . . except for Ian lol.
Quote
Simply put the Wii is not for gamers who just wanted a highly technological GC. It breaks tradition, and not everybody is ready to leave tradition behind.
But isn't the Wii a more highly technological GC?
Besides just because it breaks traditions doesn't mean the traditions it breaks are bad.
For example: Resident Evil 4 is arguably the best RE to date on Wii. Why? Because the Wii controls allow the game to be all that much better. Metroid Prime 3 benefits similarly.
The Wii may help enhance traditional gameplay, it may even introduce new gameplay methods and ideology for various games but the console isn't forcing traditions to be left behind.
It's merely enhancing the gameplay experience, at least that is how I see it.
Post by: Kairon on September 13, 2007, 02:19:26 PM
Post by: IceCold on September 13, 2007, 02:29:01 PM
QuoteI've always disagreed with this, and I always will. Nintendo just got the perfect strategy for the Wii - they differentiated themselves and put the marketing in the hands of the console development. If the PS3 had launched at $400 or even $350, the Wii might have done a bit worse, but not by much. Basically, the Wii is Nintendo's accomplishment through and through. Sony's screwups had little to do with it - if Nintendo had launched an upgraded GameCube, it would have still bombed horribly.
I think Nintendo should send a thank-you card to Sony for f*cking up pretty much everything with the PS3. Without Sony's severe incompetance this day would have never been possible. Now Nintendo found a formula that worked and was dead-on about the change in the Japanese market. But still, like Sony before them, they got lucky and benefited from the previous market leader being a complete dumbass.
QuoteAnd is that Nintendo's fault? They've basically laid the table for third parties - lower costs for developer kits, much lower cost to develop a Wii game, highest userbase and software tie-in ratio, and potential for innovation. It's just that the whole industry has a mental block when it comes to Nintendo.. hopefully the dollars change their minds.
. I think we as Nintendo fans deserve better than what we've got so far on the Wii. The third party support is horrible for example.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 13, 2007, 02:38:41 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 13, 2007, 02:55:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
I've always disagreed with this, and I always will. Nintendo just got the perfect strategy for the Wii - they differentiated themselves and put the marketing in the hands of the console development.
While I do agree that Nintendo did everything right, Sony doing everything wrong did play a factor in their success.
You have to figure that, as soon as they announced the price of the PS3, a lot of developers began to look REALLY hard at the alternatives, especially the Wii after its great showing at E3.
If the PS3 was $400 from the start, I expect it wouldn't be in anywhere near the trouble it's in because of the exclusives which are jumping ship to the Wii wouldn't have had a reason to leave.
So while I definitely think Nintendo did many things right with the Wii, I still think Sony's bungling helped pave the way for Nintendo's success by making the PS3 a non-option for so many developers.
Post by: UncleBob on September 13, 2007, 03:08:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceColdQuoteAnd is that Nintendo's fault? They've basically laid the table for third parties - lower costs for developer kits, much lower cost to develop a Wii game, highest userbase and software tie-in ratio, and potential for innovation. It's just that the whole industry has a mental block when it comes to Nintendo.. hopefully the dollars change their minds.
. I think we as Nintendo fans deserve better than what we've got so far on the Wii. The third party support is horrible for example.
To be fair, part of the reason why a lot of third parties dislike working on Nintendo systems is because Nintendo's 1st Party efforts are so good and they sell so well that no one buys the crappier third party games like what they'll settle for on the other systems. So *that* part is Nintendo's fault.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 13, 2007, 03:13:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBobQuote
Originally posted by: IceColdQuoteAnd is that Nintendo's fault? They've basically laid the table for third parties - lower costs for developer kits, much lower cost to develop a Wii game, highest userbase and software tie-in ratio, and potential for innovation. It's just that the whole industry has a mental block when it comes to Nintendo.. hopefully the dollars change their minds.
. I think we as Nintendo fans deserve better than what we've got so far on the Wii. The third party support is horrible for example.
To be fair, part of the reason why a lot of third parties dislike working on Nintendo systems is because Nintendo's 1st Party efforts are so good and they sell so well that no one buys the crappier third party games like what they'll settle for on the other systems. So *that* part is Nintendo's fault.
Well Nintendo better start making crappy games.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 13, 2007, 03:14:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: IceCold
I've always disagreed with this, and I always will. Nintendo just got the perfect strategy for the Wii - they differentiated themselves and put the marketing in the hands of the console development.
While I do agree that Nintendo did everything right, Sony doing everything wrong did play a factor in their success.
You have to figure that, as soon as they announced the price of the PS3, a lot of developers began to look REALLY hard at the alternatives, especially the Wii after its great showing at E3.
If the PS3 was $400 from the start, I expect it wouldn't be in anywhere near the trouble it's in because of the exclusives which are jumping ship to the Wii wouldn't have had a reason to leave.
So while I definitely think Nintendo did many things right with the Wii, I still think Sony's bungling helped pave the way for Nintendo's success by making the PS3 a non-option for so many developers.
This is true.
Sony "won" E3 2005. The special MTV preview of the 360 disappointed a lot of fans and many thought the MS press conference was a tad underwhelming. The media highly criticized Nintendo for not showing anything about the Wii, showing a lot of old games for the GC and the massive unveiling of the GBA micro. Sony wowed people like crazy, even with pre-rendered demo videos.
It wasn't till E3 2006 when they announced the price of the PS3 along with its weak lineup and hilarious conference that the Wii and 360 suddenly looked BETTER in comparison.
So yeah, Sony screwing did play into Nintendo's success.
Post by: Mashiro on September 13, 2007, 03:21:59 PM
It was something I knew would happen with the PS3, it's something I am GLAD happened to the PS3 and I am glad Sony is in dead last for once.
Viva la Revolution! Viva la Wii!
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 13, 2007, 03:44:47 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 13, 2007, 03:51:01 PM
Post by: Mashiro on September 13, 2007, 04:01:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think this is a load of crap that Sony made the Wii a success, yes Sony shot themselves in the foot but there was more to Wii's success than that. If you recall during E3 when the Wii was first playable EVERYONE swarmed to the Wii booth, which was long before Sony got the chance to screw up so many things. That right there showed NIntendo had something special going, and to not give Nintendo credit for it is absolutely ridiculous. The same can be said about the NDS, which IMO, proved that gamers are looking for new experiences with gaming. It may be hard for some to admit, but Nintendo actually knows what they are doing now.
You can't say that it didn't HELP though, which is what it did. It helped.
If Sony's PS3 was indeed handled properly (like at E3) it could be a very different story for Nintendo right now. Not to say the Wii wouldn't have been a success but it may not have shook up the industry so much.
Remember PS3 being in, well, dead last pretty much knocked all the developers and analysts and everyone else expecting Sony to be the run away success this gen on their asses.
With Sony screwing up and Nintendo doing many of the right things this time around, it makes for a much easier switch in power (so to speak).
Much like how when Nintendo stumbled with N64, it allowed Sony to become top dog. Yes I am over simplifying this statement by great leaps and bounds but you know what I mean =).
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 13, 2007, 04:07:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think this is a load of crap that Sony made the Wii a success, yes Sony shot themselves in the foot but there was more to Wii's success than that. If you recall during E3 when the Wii was first playable EVERYONE swarmed to the Wii booth, which was long before Sony got the chance to screw up so many things. That right there showed NIntendo had something special going, and to not give Nintendo credit for it is absolutely ridiculous. The same can be said about the NDS, which IMO, proved that gamers are looking for new experiences with gaming. It may be hard for some to admit, but Nintendo actually knows what they are doing now.
You can't say that it didn't HELP though, which is what it did. It helped.
If Sony's PS3 was indeed handled properly (like at E3) it could be a very different story for Nintendo right now. Not to say the Wii wouldn't have been a success but it may not have shook up the industry so much.
Remember PS3 being in, well, dead last pretty much knocked all the developers and analysts and everyone else expecting Sony to be the run away success this gen on their asses.
With Sony screwing up and Nintendo doing many of the right things this time around, it makes for a much easier switch in power (so to speak).
Much like how when Nintendo stumbled with N64, it allowed Sony to become top dog. Yes I am over simplifying this statement by great leaps and bounds but you know what I mean =).
I have no disagreement that Sony helped Nintendo lead, but even if they didn't screw up I think it would have been a close race because of Nintendo's approach this time around with a low price system.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 13, 2007, 04:08:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think this is a load of crap that Sony made the Wii a success, yes Sony shot themselves in the foot but there was more to Wii's success than that. If you recall during E3 when the Wii was first playable EVERYONE swarmed to the Wii booth, which was long before Sony got the chance to screw up so many things. That right there showed NIntendo had something special going, and to not give Nintendo credit for it is absolutely ridiculous. The same can be said about the NDS, which IMO, proved that gamers are looking for new experiences with gaming. It may be hard for some to admit, but Nintendo actually knows what they are doing now.
Yeah, but to say that Sony's stupid decisions didn't help a bit is silly as well.
Back on the N64 era the reason the Playstation became a success was because Nintendo kept screwing both the fans and the developers with their lack of games, silly decisions and hard to develop for hardware. The N64 did well but their mistakes cost them greatly and thus the reason why Sony was leader for two whole generations.
History is repeating again. The price of the PS3, along with high development costs, underwhelming game lineup and tacked on "innovative" controls has affected Sony giving both the Wii and the 360 a lead in the race.
In fact, let me put it this way: Sony, MS and Nintendo are racers in a marathon. Sony is in the lead, but all of a sudden he gets a cramp and slows down greatly. MS and Nintendo see this and sprint ahead Sony and towards the finish line. The judges and fan will say that the racers worked hard but will acknowledge that Sony's slowdown during the middle of the race helped them reach the goal.
Post by: UERD on September 13, 2007, 04:11:06 PM
Quote
GP's new sig
Does this mean I can finally play MP3 without standing on my head?
Quote
<big install base>
To play devil's advocate, how many of those units are like the ones in nursing homes, where the people who play games will never do anything besides Wii Sports and maybe Brain Age or whatever- exclusive-casual gamers, to coin a new crappy term. Wii's install base reaches into the 'blue ocean', now it's a matter of getting all those people (especially non-gamers) to walk into a store and buy more games.
I don't think it's a tremendous issue, though. I'd be willing to bet that a large part of the 'first-time' Wii install base is comprised of 'gamers' who also own another console but are willing to try something new.
Quote
Sony is in the lead, but all of a sudden he gets a cramp and slows down greatly.
EA 2006 was like Sony drinking too much water before the race and throwing up. Recent sales numbers are the cramp, and Lair was the bunch of people hired by the Triads to break his legs before he could go any further.
Post by: tacky fad on September 13, 2007, 04:12:00 PM
I wish tacky fad were my father.
- The Management
Post by: IceCold on September 13, 2007, 04:22:35 PM
Post by: Djunknown on September 13, 2007, 04:26:17 PM
Quote
But what happens when the Wii's worldwide install base exceeds the combined PS3 and XBox 360 installed base? It's gonna happen soon, with the Wii over the XBox 360 worldwide, that leaves about 3 or 4 million PS3s to outsell.
*
Hat*It won't happen by the end of this year. Especially this year, with the mad influx of games coming out. One could say that the holiday season kicks off September 25, with the release of Halo 3. Bio Shock and Metroid Prime 3 were the precursors. Unless Sony and Microsoft fail to sell a single console since Financial Times gave these numbers, their numbers put together will still outnumber the Wii. The Wii get a bigger piece of the pie, but not the whole thing. That's why you're going to see more 360/PS3 (and PC) titles and less exclusives. EA for example, supposedly 're-focusing' their efforts on the Wii, haven't released Skate on the system. Even though it begs for Wii controls.
*Off hat*
Anyway, can't we all just be happy and savor this moment? Is that too much to ask?
Post by: Mashiro on September 13, 2007, 04:28:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: tacky fad
The real worst console ever from nintendo was the n64. It had exactly 3 decent games. harvest moon, Mangina Masque, and Paper mario. It was also the console that killed Mario with the horrid mario 64, and it killed Zelda with Ocarina of lame and is directly responsible for the pile of crap known as Toilet Princess. n64 made me hate video games. gamecube restored some hope. Toilet princess ruined Zelda again.
Incoming forum ban.
If I was a mod . . . which I'm not . . .
Mario 64 horrid? OoLame? Well I mean I didn't like OoT all too much but it was far from lame (I felt it was ahead of its time if anything and I knew the later Zelda incarnations would benefit from increased technology to convey it's great system of play).
I give you credit though man you are the first person I ever heard call Mario 64 horrid.
What about Star Fox 64 and Goldeneye? You didn't like those either? No Mario Kart?
Futhermore, what the hell made you like GC MORE than N64? All GC had were sequels to what was on N64 for the most part lol.
Post by: AzureNightmare on September 13, 2007, 04:33:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MashiroQuote
Originally posted by: tacky fad
The real worst console ever from nintendo was the n64. It had exactly 3 decent games. harvest moon, Mangina Masque, and Paper mario. It was also the console that killed Mario with the horrid mario 64, and it killed Zelda with Ocarina of lame and is directly responsible for the pile of crap known as Toilet Princess. n64 made me hate video games. gamecube restored some hope. Toilet princess ruined Zelda again.
Incoming forum ban.
If I was a mod . . . which I'm not . . .
Mario 64 horrid? OoLame? Well I mean I didn't like OoT all too much but it was far from lame (I felt it was ahead of its time if anything and I knew the later Zelda incarnations would benefit from increased technology to convey it's great system of play).
I give you credit though man you are the first person I ever heard call Mario 64 horrid.
What about Star Fox 64 and Goldeneye? You didn't like those either? No Mario Kart?
Futhermore, what the hell made you like GC MORE than N64? All GC had were sequels to what was on N64 for the most part lol.
You're forgetting that I'm here, watching over this thread like a hawk. Let me make this clear to those who wish to troll this thread, once and only once, do NOT make me repeat myself. I will NOT tollerate trolling, flaming, derailing, or personal attacks in this thread. Think before you post, or the consequences will be heavy and their execution swift and decisive. You have been warned.
Post by: tacky fad on September 13, 2007, 04:39:13 PM
Mario 64 sucked because it wasn't a mario game. it was a wander arouond aimlessly and collect stars game. That's not mario. Mario is go from the beginning of the stage to the end of the stage. That is why Mario galaxy looks like what a mario in 3d should be. There are no planets large enough for that wander around aimlessly nonsense.
Ocarina of time sucked because of Adult linque with the earring and the insipid dungeons which were way too many and its overall ugliness. Also the stealth sequences. The worst parts of Wind Waker were derived from Suckarina of time. That insipid indoors music, stealth sequences. I was ready for OOt to end after the stupid fish dungeon but it kept dragging and dragging and dragging. Also that stupid horse. TP sucked because it rejected all the right moves made in Mangina Masque and Windu Wakeru and forsook them all to please the incompetent fanboys who wanted an OOT expansion pak. And it sucked.
So no, it's not reasonless flaming. All the kids have their rose-coloured n64 glasses on and I want to rip them off and let them see that pile of suckage for what it was. A disgrace to Nintendo consoles.
This guy is the best poster on the fourms.
- The Management
Post by: Mashiro on September 13, 2007, 04:39:14 PM
So all in all I think this is pretty much the start of what is bound to be an amazing second half of the year for Nintendo. Wii taking the lead, MP3 doing awesome with sales and owning up Bioshock . . .
what's going to happen when Smash Bros. Brawl and SMG get launched?
World Domination people that's what! =) It's a good time to be a Nintendo fan once again ::tosses up confetti:: Everybody party!
Edit:
Quote
So no, it's not reasonless flaming. All the kids have their rose-coloured n64 glasses on and I want to rip them off and let them see that pile of suckage for what it was. A disgrace to Nintendo consoles.
:: Deep breaths:: Well your trolling skills are strong with you young one.
It's not as if millions of people played the games you're insulting and enjoyed them or anything. They just have rose-coloured N64 glasses on. It's not as if the system broke ground and revolutionized 3D gaming in many regards or anything. Or introduce/adopt now industry standards (4 ports, rumble pack, analog stick . . .).
Post by: Kairon on September 13, 2007, 07:00:22 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on September 13, 2007, 07:12:38 PM
Post by: AManatee2 on September 13, 2007, 08:06:58 PM
All in all, I see where Ian was coming from. He has felt the same way I have... I feel there has been a serious lack of depth in the games so far. I know that by the end of this console generation, my Wii is going to a glowing prize with it's huge library of favorite old classics and probably some brilliantly designed games. I do wish, and this is my opinion... as is everything in a forum, that it had a little bit more horsepower, but I wish even more that developers would put some effort into the visuals. And dear lord no more PS2 ports, or for that matter games that come out on PSP.... and Wii. (Here's lookin' at you, Heroes... though heroes does have 32 online multiplayer.. wth?)
I feel we've got a lot to look forward to as Nintendo gamers. I'm even excited about games like the recently announced "Smarty Pants" from EA and Nintendo's upcoming popularity channel. And believe it or not, the day that keyboard support is added for the Internet Channel is a day I'll buy a USB keyboard. I actually make use of it as it is.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 13, 2007, 08:11:49 PM
Post by: AzureNightmare on September 13, 2007, 08:17:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Yikes, gamefaqs is spreading to NWR more and more each day!
you speaketh truth.
Post by: KDR_11k on September 13, 2007, 08:25:23 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 14, 2007, 06:11:50 AM
Would you give Sony the same amount of credit for the Playstation? They did a lot of things right and also introduced a new audience to gaming. But how well would they have done if Sega and Nintendo didn't both screw up? Momentum is a powerful thing in the game industry. The Playstation 2 defeated the Dreamcast before it came out and it had a really lousy first couple of months. The fact that was the followup to the market leader helped them. Every third party was on board with the PS3 and everyone thought that was going to be the winner because of the PS2's success. If Sony didn't screw up the Wii would have had to fight that momentum just as the Playstation would have to have fought the N64's. People cut the market leader more slack. They really just have to be good enough and can afford to make more mistakes than the competition. I don't think it's a coincedence that since Nintendo started the modern console formula the market leader has fallen after really screwing up. The Xbox did so many things right and is considered a big success but it never beat the PS2 and I think that's the best the Wii could have done without Sony screwing up. Nintendo screwed up and Sony took over. Sony screwed up and Nintendo took back over. No one has ever beaten a competant market leader yet so I'm wondering if that's even possible. Hell even Atari's fall was self-inflicted.
Post by: BigJim on September 14, 2007, 06:13:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Wow, you know you have gone too far when the management gives you warnings about your behavior. I thought his posts were too much but not so bad that the management had to give warnings.
I didn't think they were all that bad either. Big deal if there are alternative opinions.
Which is why I primarily visit platform-neutral forums instead.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 14, 2007, 06:41:31 PM
Badmouthing from a well-known forumer could be seen as sarcasm.
Badmouthing from a brand-new screen name could be seen as thread-arson.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 14, 2007, 06:44:15 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 14, 2007, 06:46:16 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on September 14, 2007, 06:50:14 PM
Post by: Kairon on September 14, 2007, 11:45:13 PM
Post by: Deguello on September 15, 2007, 10:09:50 PM
I think Bill's right. He's just bitter that when he complains about Nintendo now he seems less like a "concerned Nintendo fan" and more like a "raving lunatic." He has run out of real world evidence to source his "wisdom" and now can only source his own opinion, which is as easy to discount as having one of your own to counter it. His supporter no longer say "Ian has a point" or "Ian's probably right." They too isolate him, mainly because he cannot "turn it off" as evidenced in the bizarre NHL discussion thread which Ian compares the NHL to Nintendo for no reason. He cannot join in any positive discussion about any game whatsoever, as he routinely does not own any, whether they be cult favorites or mainstream hits. He doesn't like them. In fact, he is closer to the "non-gamers" he despises than most of us.
"Ian"
He stands on the sidewalk
A twice-creased sandwich sign
"The end is nigh!" he reveals
Answered only in tire squeals
How lonely he must feel...
Ponder these haiku:
A Batman Image
Texts Of Worthless Filth Appear
Do Not Click Reply
Remember That Time
Ian Spake Of DS Launch?
No, Didn't Think So.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on September 16, 2007, 01:37:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The Playstation 2 defeated the Dreamcast before it came out and it had a really lousy first couple of months. The fact that was the followup to the market leader helped them.
It was more because Dreamcast was one of the worst consoles ever put out on the market, really. Also I heart Deg.
Post by: Mashiro on September 16, 2007, 04:41:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal MonkeyQuote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The Playstation 2 defeated the Dreamcast before it came out and it had a really lousy first couple of months. The fact that was the followup to the market leader helped them.
It was more because Dreamcast was one of the worst consoles ever put out on the market, really. Also I heart Deg.
You are in no way, shape, or form a video game fan. Please leave these forums immediately. Thank you.
. . .
Seriously, WORST console ever put on to the market? Dreamcast had a lot of good games (and a stellar launch, which the PS2 didn't have. . . in fact it had one of the best launch line ups out of any system in recent memory). I can think of plenty more systems that could be considered the worst ever put out on the market. See: Virtual Boy.
Post by: that Baby guy on September 16, 2007, 07:07:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
It's funny watching Ian recycle the same old arguments over and over.
I think Bill's right. He's just bitter that when he complains about Nintendo now he seems less like a "concerned Nintendo fan" and more like a "raving lunatic." He has run out of real world evidence to source his "wisdom" and now can only source his own opinion, which is as easy to discount as having one of your own to counter it. His supporter no longer say "Ian has a point" or "Ian's probably right." They too isolate him, mainly because he cannot "turn it off" as evidenced in the bizarre NHL discussion thread which Ian compares the NHL to Nintendo for no reason. He cannot join in any positive discussion about any game whatsoever, as he routinely does not own any, whether they be cult favorites or mainstream hits. He doesn't like them. In fact, he is closer to the "non-gamers" he despises than most of us.
"Ian"
He stands on the sidewalk
A twice-creased sandwich sign
"The end is nigh!" he reveals
Answered only in tire squeals
How lonely he must feel...
Ponder these haiku:
A Batman Image
Texts Of Worthless Filth Appear
Do Not Click Reply
Remember That Time
Ian Spake Of DS Launch?
No, Didn't Think So.
Deg, that's stupid. Really stupid. Ian's observation is pretty sharp. Up until this generation, there's never been a change in market leader without the previous leader doing something, or several things, incredibly wrong. Maybe the circumstances would have been different this time, we don't know. However, once again, the market leader made far too many mistakes, and the Wii and even 360, have really been able to capitalize on them. Would the Wii had been this successful had the PS3 not included Blu-ray, hadn't had the sixaxis, and weren't $600 at launch? We'll never know. However, we do know that Sony has made some big mistakes and it has cost them their position in this gen's console race.
I think the Dreamcast is a great reference in this case, too. It had great graphics, a desirable price point, lots of highly acclaimed games, an open, accessible, and cheap online program, and heavy Japanese developer support, yet all people wanted to talk about from the months after the DC's release to when the PS2 was released was how the powerful PS2 processor could pilot smart bombs. To me, I'd say Sony had won before the battle started. Did I buy a DC initially? No, I decided to wait for the PS2, after all, it was supposed to be much better. Then, the PS2 launched with no decent games, no online, short supply, and with terrible graphics, too. Who won? The PS2. Why? Certainly not because the DC wasn't a great competitor at the time. Sony used their position as market leader to push the PS2.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 16, 2007, 10:03:35 AM
Post by: Plugabugz on September 16, 2007, 10:15:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thatguyQuote
Originally posted by: Deguello
It's funny watching Ian recycle the same old arguments over and over.
I think Bill's right. He's just bitter that when he complains about Nintendo now he seems less like a "concerned Nintendo fan" and more like a "raving lunatic." He has run out of real world evidence to source his "wisdom" and now can only source his own opinion, which is as easy to discount as having one of your own to counter it. His supporter no longer say "Ian has a point" or "Ian's probably right." They too isolate him, mainly because he cannot "turn it off" as evidenced in the bizarre NHL discussion thread which Ian compares the NHL to Nintendo for no reason. He cannot join in any positive discussion about any game whatsoever, as he routinely does not own any, whether they be cult favorites or mainstream hits. He doesn't like them. In fact, he is closer to the "non-gamers" he despises than most of us.
"Ian"
He stands on the sidewalk
A twice-creased sandwich sign
"The end is nigh!" he reveals
Answered only in tire squeals
How lonely he must feel...
Ponder these haiku:
A Batman Image
Texts Of Worthless Filth Appear
Do Not Click Reply
Remember That Time
Ian Spake Of DS Launch?
No, Didn't Think So.
Deg, that's stupid. Really stupid. Ian's observation is pretty sharp. Up until this generation, there's never been a change in market leader without the previous leader doing something, or several things, incredibly wrong. Maybe the circumstances would have been different this time, we don't know. However, once again, the market leader made far too many mistakes, and the Wii and even 360, have really been able to capitalize on them. Would the Wii had been this successful had the PS3 not included Blu-ray, hadn't had the sixaxis, and weren't $600 at launch? We'll never know. However, we do know that Sony has made some big mistakes and it has cost them their position in this gen's console race.
I think the Dreamcast is a great reference in this case, too. It had great graphics, a desirable price point, lots of highly acclaimed games, an open, accessible, and cheap online program, and heavy Japanese developer support, yet all people wanted to talk about from the months after the DC's release to when the PS2 was released was how the powerful PS2 processor could pilot smart bombs. To me, I'd say Sony had won before the battle started. Did I buy a DC initially? No, I decided to wait for the PS2, after all, it was supposed to be much better. Then, the PS2 launched with no decent games, no online, short supply, and with terrible graphics, too. Who won? The PS2. Why? Certainly not because the DC wasn't a great competitor at the time. Sony used their position as market leader to push the PS2.
Deg and Ian are ying and yang. The two have an eternal bond none of us will understand.
Sony merely made the 3 a gamble but at the wrong market. They assumed the brand would justify the price to gamers, while at the same time to potential blu-rayers be considered a cheap buy. Consumers are savvy people collectively, and will only tolerate so much. Push it too much as the 3 did and it became unreasonable. People dont want to spend £425/$800odd on a 3 when we have a mortgage and £100/month on public transport right? It's nicely in the zone of being a price you pay towards investing into something (repair bills for car, insurance, mortgage etc) and not for the entertainment factor.
Post by: Kairon on September 16, 2007, 10:15:51 AM
But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 16, 2007, 10:19:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, I love countering Ian's posts as much as anyone, but I'm actually getting tired of this Deguello vs. Ian thing. I don't think Ian is hurting anyone on this board, we can think for ourselves you know.
But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.
You are hurting me all the time Kairon! You should be BANNED.
Post by: Kairon on September 16, 2007, 10:21:00 AM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, I love countering Ian's posts as much as anyone, but I'm actually getting tired of this Deguello vs. Ian thing. I don't think Ian is hurting anyone on this board, we can think for ourselves you know.
But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.
You are hurting me all the time Kairon! You should be BANNED.
This revenge for you getting the HAWTNESS thread locked!
Post by: Mashiro on September 16, 2007, 10:50:45 AM
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Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey, I love countering Ian's posts as much as anyone, but I'm actually getting tired of this Deguello vs. Ian thing. I don't think Ian is hurting anyone on this board, we can think for ourselves you know.
But yeah, the Wii is really the most amazing piece of Nintendo hardware to come along in a long time because of the wonderful possibilities it offers to gaming. For anyone to suggest that it's succeeding in sales DESPITE of those qualities is, in my opinion, an affront to what this medium could become.
You are hurting me all the time Kairon! You should be BANNED.
This revenge for you getting the HAWTNESS thread locked!
Agreed =P
Post by: Deguello on September 16, 2007, 07:38:31 PM
And this whole "if quantity X were different, then PS3 would be outselling Wii" argument is tired and old. If the PS3 were $300, it wouldn't have Next-Gen-level graphics or a Blu-Ray drive or the Cell inside. IT would be a different ballgame, but not necessarily one that would favor Sony. And the Dreamcast is a horrible reference point. the Dreamcast sold 11 million consoles in its 2-year lifetime, almost 30% after it had been officially discontinued and prices dropped to $50. The Wii has already passed that and it hasn't even been out a year. And this line..
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Then, the PS2 launched with no decent games, no online, short supply, and with terrible graphics, too. Who won? The PS2.
What are you trying to PROVE here? That a graphically inferior console can somehow triumph over superior ones?
To say the Wii is ONLY successful because of Sony's mistakes is laughable. How can the Wii be 100% tilted towards non-gamers and children, AND at the same time be stealing marketshare from the HARDCORE BEEFY people who would buy PS3's? This just doesn't compute, because the premises contradict. You are going to have to give one of them up to keep arguing. Either the Wii has appealed to the non-gaming masses (as well as hardcores) and created a new market, in which case PS3's mistakes mean nothing, or PS3's mistakes DID lead to Wii dominance, which means the Wii has attracted the manly hardcore beefy-types and is therefore not a console filled with non-gamers and soccer moms.
Decisions, decisions.
Post by: IceCold on September 16, 2007, 07:57:49 PM
QuoteThank you, Deg.. It's convenient how so many people skim over this glaring contradiction..
To say the Wii is ONLY successful because of Sony's mistakes is laughable. How can the Wii be 100% tilted towards non-gamers and children, AND at the same time be stealing marketshare from the HARDCORE BEEFY people who would buy PS3's? This just doesn't compute, because the premises contradict. You are going to have to give one of them up to keep arguing. Either the Wii has appealed to the non-gaming masses (as well as hardcores) and created a new market, in which case PS3's mistakes mean nothing, or PS3's mistakes DID lead to Wii dominance, which means the Wii has attracted the manly hardcore beefy-types and is therefore not a console filled with non-gamers and soccer moms.
I personally believe that while the PS3's general mishaps have helped the Wii somewhat, it would have succeeded anyway. Nintendo did the most brilliant thing seen in the games industry for years - they differentiated their product so much that the console is nearly oblivious to happenings to the "competitors". Ian, you have to realise that if Nintendo put out a 360 or PS3 clone with nothing unique, it would have been killed. Even with Sony screwing up, that console would never have stood a chance. The Wii was really the only way Nintendo could gain back marketshare.
Post by: Kairon on September 16, 2007, 08:11:34 PM
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Originally posted by: Deguello
Kairon, I'd be willing to bet Ian has complete utter contempt for you because you enjoy non-games and embrace non-gamers. You are therefore encouraging Nintendo to go down that path instead of catering specifically to him.
He can have all the contempt for me he wants! I'm right.
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Originally posted by: IceCold
Nintendo did the most brilliant thing seen in the games industry for years - they differentiated their product so much that the console is nearly oblivious to happenings to the "competitors". Ian, you have to realise that if Nintendo put out a 360 or PS3 clone with nothing unique, it would have been killed. Even with Sony screwing up, that console would never have stood a chance. The Wii was really the only way Nintendo could gain back marketshare.
I know I shouldn't crow too loudly, but the Wii basically vindicates a lot of my fanboi rants from years ago when I would rail away that the last thing Nintendo should do is go toe-to-toe with mega consumer-electronics-computer corporations like Sony or MS. I would always argue that Nintendo would need to find it's own way to do things instead of just copying the ways that Sony and Microsoft approached gaming.
After all, this is Nintendo. And there IS a difference.
Post by: Kairon on September 16, 2007, 08:12:57 PM
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Originally posted by: Deguello
To say the Wii is ONLY successful because of Sony's mistakes is laughable. How can the Wii be 100% tilted towards non-gamers and children, AND at the same time be stealing marketshare from the HARDCORE BEEFY people who would buy PS3's? This just doesn't compute, because the premises contradict. You are going to have to give one of them up to keep arguing. Either the Wii has appealed to the non-gaming masses (as well as hardcores) and created a new market, in which case PS3's mistakes mean nothing, or PS3's mistakes DID lead to Wii dominance, which means the Wii has attracted the manly hardcore beefy-types and is therefore not a console filled with non-gamers and soccer moms.
Ah, but where does the XBox 360 fit into this? It may be the XBox360 that's siphoning away the Playstation's core, not the Wii.
Post by: IceCold on September 16, 2007, 08:37:31 PM
EDIT: And by the way, I salute you for your foresight on Nintendo needing to differentiate themselves. I started to really believe it during the HD debate around E3 2005, but you may have been advocating it before then even..
Post by: KDR_11k on September 16, 2007, 09:17:00 PM
Also, for all we know store clerks could have pushed PS3s on non-gamers if the system wasn't so freaking overpriced.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 16, 2007, 09:23:10 PM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Also, for all we know store clerks could have pushed PS3s on non-gamers if the system wasn't so freaking overpriced.
Along with a copy of, um Ninja Gaiden Sigma?
Post by: KDR_11k on September 16, 2007, 10:22:38 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on September 17, 2007, 01:29:17 AM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro
You are in no way, shape, or form a video game fan. Please leave these forums immediately. Thank you.
. . .
Seriously, WORST console ever put on to the market? Dreamcast had a lot of good games (and a stellar launch, which the PS2 didn't have. . . in fact it had one of the best launch line ups out of any system in recent memory). I can think of plenty more systems that could be considered the worst ever put out on the market. See: Virtual Boy.
I said 'one of', not THE worst. It's kinda close though. :] The system lasted what, less than two years (six months in PAL regions). What few decent exclusive games it had got ported to better systems, the rest was a mush of low grade clown meat. Dreamcast didn't die from PS2 hype, it died because it was a joke, and consumers were wise enough not to fall for Sega's crap again.
Also Sky Odyssey alone beat the Dreamcast's entire launch line-up. Oh yeah. I went there, girlfriend.
Post by: couchmonkey on September 17, 2007, 07:59:53 AM
I have come to conclude that screw-ups are overexaggerated in this industry. I'm starting to hear all this talk about how the PS3 lineup sucks, and I just know that people who don't look closely enough are going to agree by the end of this generation that Nintendo won because Sony messed up. I disagree. Sony's mistakes helped, but Nintendo had a clever new strategy and executed it well. How else can you explain the system selling out constantly for 10 months with hardly any great games? How else can you explain the record sales? Wii isn't just picking up the slack, it's mopping the floor.
And the same thing goes for PSX vs. N64 (and Saturn). Sony deserves some credit for seeing Nintendo's weaknesses and attacking them. It made all the right moves to "steal" third party support from Nintendo and it used its stronger international market penetration to take parts of the world where Nintendo was weak. According to VGChartz (http://vgchartz.com/worldcons.php) Playstation sold seven times more than N64 in the "other" territories...but it only sold about 3 times more on average!
Smart moves make a difference in this industry. Right now Sony and Microsoft are in a bloody war over the hardcore gamers. They're both losing money on their hardware, sales are sluggish, and there seem to be tons of bidding wars going on behind the scenes. When Sony and Microsoft announce new exclusives, I think "moneyhat". When Nintendo announces a new exclusive, I think "massive sales figures".
Post by: wandering on September 22, 2007, 08:25:44 PM
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Originally posted by: tacky fad
Reasonless flaming?
Mario 64 sucked because it wasn't a mario game. it was a wander arouond aimlessly and collect stars game. That's not mario. Mario is go from the beginning of the stage to the end of the stage.
What makes a Mario game a mario game is for Miyamoto to decide, and not you, thankfully. And what's wrong with wandering around aimlessly?
Post by: Kairon on September 22, 2007, 10:58:41 PM
