Post by: tssf on July 14, 2007, 08:11:05 PM
Metroid looks good but it looks like Metroid Prime 2. I guess maybe because I wasn't much of a metroid fan.
Super Mario Galaxy looks okay, but instead of going with these "Super Mario <insert environment here>" names, it doesn't seem to be that Super Mario 5 that everyone's wants. (I don't really see "New Super Mario Bros" as SMB5.
No, it feels like Nintendo's getting "Comfortable", like they did when the SNES was doing super well. Then, the Playstation swooped in. PS3 may not be doing as well as Sony hopes, but it still doesn't mean Nintendo is in the clear for first this generation.
And what's this about all the non-games? I mean it's fine Nintendo's trying to appeal to the audiences, tap the crowd that used to shun them. But, what about the games..the epic actual games which everyone loves so?
Heh, the only non-game I'm really looking forward to is WiiMusic, and they probably won't even release that! There's no information on it, and no one seems to care.. Am I the only one who can see the potential in having a music game that can read back Midi files, and you must conduct the orchestra in the desired time and speed? The fact that it could be expandable and read actual MIDI files from the SD slot for new levels! This was a really neat concept that they just ..quietly swept under t he carpet.
I'm afraid. My Wii hasn't been played in months. Is this all I get for sitting infront of FutureShop for 16 hours in the blistering cold?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 08:14:50 PM
My list (Includes some games not on Wii):
Endless Ocean
Mass Effect
Metroid Prime 3
Smash Brothers
Mario Soccer
RE: UC
Zack and Wiki (I just watched some stuff on it and I am REALLY excited, though this could be bumped to 2008)
Mario Galaxy
Bio-Shock
Batallion Wars II
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 08:19:06 PM
For starters Metroid Prime 3 is far better looking than Metroid Prime 2. A lot of effort has gone into the title and it shows I don't know if it's because you're not a metroid fan that you didn't notice but it does look better than 2. As everyone says the screens and video don't do it justice.
Secondly, Super Mario Galaxy looks BEAUTIFUL and hands down the best looking Wii game to date (saying good is an insult sorry). From the impressions and videos so far it seems to be shaping up to be one of the best Mario games yet. It may not be Super Mario Bros. but it's not a bad game.
Nintendo isn't comfortable they are putting a lot of effort into the titles they make and I don't think these comments are really fair to the company.
Edit: GP beat me to the first post! You win this round GP
Post by: tssf on July 14, 2007, 08:23:26 PM
Super Mario Galaxy looks gorgeous yes, but it doesn't look like the new Mario game I really wanna play. :/
Metroid Prime 3.. well.. hmm, perhaps I'm not enough of a Metroid fanboy to see the difference in graphics quality between 2 and 3. To me both games look the same.
I assure you this is not trolling though, surely there must be some people who expected more out of this E3 than what we got?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 08:23:38 PM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro
Wow . . . is this a really horrible attempt at a troll?
For starters Metroid Prime 3 is far better looking than Metroid Prime 2. A lot of effort has gone into the title and it shows I don't know if it's because you're not a metroid fan that you didn't notice but it does look better than 2. As everyone says the screens and video don't do it justice.
Secondly, Super Mario Galaxy looks BEAUTIFUL and hands down the best looking Wii game to date (saying good is an insult sorry). From the impressions and videos so far it seems to be shaping up to be one of the best Mario games yet. It may not be Super Mario Bros. but it's not a bad game.
Nintendo isn't comfortable they are putting a lot of effort into the titles they make and I don't think these comments are really fair to the company.
What impresses me most about Metroid Prime 3 is Retro's attempt at including different worlds which is a first for the game. That sky city level looks stunning and has the kind of artistic detail that makes you say "wow". Mario Galaxy is the same way, like was said on the last Wiik in review, the game is perfect for freedom of artistic expression. Since the game is split into different worlds of varying sizesm any zany idea that a designer has can fit the game since space and consistency is not required when it comes to design. Not to mention, as I said before, this is the first big evolution in the Mario franchise since Mario 64 (Arguably I think it could be as big as Mario 64 was when it came to evolving the franchise).
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 08:27:43 PM
Heck as it stands now E3 may not even be around next yet, it's a very big topic of discussion now how E3 will be pulled off in the future.
I would say though that while I was a little upset some big Megaton announcement wasn't made I certainly wasn't disappointed in what was shown. Starting in august through the first quarter of 2008 I expect Wii to be phenomenally fun to play with all the great games coming out. The stream of games that are coming are just going to be amazing and your Wii will get plenty of use.
Post by: Kairon on July 14, 2007, 08:34:37 PM
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Originally posted by: tssf
There were no earth-shattering, game realm-shaking announcements or unveilings.
Yeah, I agree, this E3 seemed much more "this year" focused, and there weren't a lot of brand new announcements, or even announcements that were completely, utterly, unanticipated. (except maybe for the controversy of Wii Fit and Sony's little blurb about getting exclusive MMORPGs from Korean MMORPG grindhouse NCSoft)
Quote
Originally posted by: tssf
No, it feels like Nintendo's getting "Comfortable", like they did when the SNES was doing super well.
I don't know where you get this though. They showed that they were working with thrid parties with Capcom's RE:UC and Sega's Ghost Squad BOTH supporting the Wii Zapper this fall... which Nintendo is aggressively penetrating with a $19.99 price point and free pack-in in-house game. They announced Mario Kart for early 2008, no after-Christmas drought here! They're pinning their hopes on PH, which they collaborated with Fansite TheHylia to showcase and testimonialize: A Zelda game played through the touchscreen, which got a 39/40 in Famitsu and which may just bring hardcore and non-gamers together buying the same game (Miyamoto stated that he wanted his sister to try it in a recent interview, for example. AND they're not resting on their Wii Sports laurels because they've got Wii Fit in the pipeline.
I saw a Nintendo that was, yes, still very reserved, but also very specific about what they wanted to accomplish at the show. They didn't want to parade a whole bunch of game trailers in front of people. They wanted to craft certain key messages and points as best they could.
In fact, they were pretty decent at it. Just look at the mainstream press, where almost every article out there praises Nintendo and relegates Sony and MS to also-rans at best, and incompetent dinosaurs at worst. Just peruse through this thread, where a bunch of hardcore gamers gape aghast at what news sources like The Washington Post are saying about the event.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 08:36:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: tssf
It's not like my comments are going to hurt the company's feelings. But I do stand by my opinions.
Super Mario Galaxy looks gorgeous yes, but it doesn't look like the new Mario game I really wanna play. :/
Metroid Prime 3.. well.. hmm, perhaps I'm not enough of a Metroid fanboy to see the difference in graphics quality between 2 and 3. To me both games look the same.
I assure you this is not trolling though, surely there must be some people who expected more out of this E3 than what we got?
I ask you, was Mario 64 the game you expected to play? Were you disappointed it pretty much trashed the Mario formula?
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 08:42:40 PM
Thank god for Nintendo, if there was no Nintendo the video game industry would just keep shrinking and eventually collapse in on itself =/
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 08:54:55 PM
Post by: Ghisy on July 14, 2007, 10:20:24 PM
Not a single word about forthcoming Wii games, nor DS games.
Seems like press in France was given moneyhats by Sony! Bleh.
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 10:24:05 PM
lol just kidding much love Ghisy. <3
Anyway I agree with you 100% GP.
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 10:27:33 PM
But there are a number of games I'm looking forward to. It didn't seem like we got all much new info, though, which is kind of disapointing. It's a shame the only new Brawl info we got was a release date.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 10:29:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39
I'm with tssf on Galaxy. I still don't see what all the fuss is about.
But there are a number of games I'm looking forward to. It didn't seem like we got all much new info, though, which is kind of disapointing. It's a shame the only new Brawl info we got was a release date.
I think your dancing robot thing got to your head! Shame on you for not getting excited about SMG! Don't you feel bad now?
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 10:38:06 PM
(Family Guy reference take no offense.)
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 10:43:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think your dancing robot thing got to your head! Shame on you for not getting excited about SMG! Don't you feel bad now?
No. Mario can bite me.
And it's not a robot. Gawd. You think you're so smart just 'cause your avatar's some freaky lady standing in front of yellow thing stuff.
Mash': your mom's a racist.
Post by: Plugabugz on July 14, 2007, 10:44:31 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 10:49:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think your dancing robot thing got to your head! Shame on you for not getting excited about SMG! Don't you feel bad now?
No. Mario can bite me.
And it's not a robot. Gawd. You think you're so smart just 'cause your avatar's some freaky lady standing in front of yellow thing stuff.
Mash': your mom's a racist.
That freaky lady is She-Ra! So take that.
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 10:51:49 PM
So take that.
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 10:58:03 PM
Whatcha say about that?!
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 11:02:49 PM
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 11:05:38 PM
/threadover
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 11:08:10 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 11:09:28 PM
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 11:11:01 PM
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 11:12:39 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2007, 11:27:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I don't think there'll be that many big announcements. Remember, E3 is practically dead. We'll see a few press releases from the surrounding time put into that show instead but no special versions of games anymore (I heard devs hate having to make an E3 demo anyway).
Also Mario does plumb. Why do you think he travels through pipes? He's unclogging them!
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 11:30:45 PM
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 11:31:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Also Mario does plumb. Why do you think he travels through pipes? He's unclogging them!
That's the most ridiculous piece of ridiculousness I've ever heard. Where does the clog-matter go? Does Mario eat it? 'Cause that's kinda gross.
Post by: Mashiro on July 14, 2007, 11:34:28 PM
And as we all know only the coolest and bestest plumbers of all can do that. So yeah.
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 11:40:20 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 14, 2007, 11:51:06 PM
Post by: Smoke39 on July 14, 2007, 11:53:50 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 15, 2007, 12:01:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
That freaky lady is She-Ra! So take that.
Ah! I thought she looked familiar! I can't believe I didn't recognize her!
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 15, 2007, 12:09:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39
Well then maybe the fat loser should lose some weight!
NO! It's tradition that he's fat!
Post by: Mashiro on July 15, 2007, 12:11:02 AM
Post by: Mashiro on July 15, 2007, 12:22:52 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 15, 2007, 12:33:38 AM
Post by: Mashiro on July 15, 2007, 12:37:20 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on July 15, 2007, 02:15:41 AM
Post by: JonLeung on July 15, 2007, 03:19:05 AM
I went last year with some friends (thanks to my web site, VGMaps.com), and it was lots of fun. When we heard about the scaling-back and downsizing or whatever this year, we didn't want to go even if we still could (which I doubt). But it sounds too small and yet not organized well. I'd almost forgotten E3 was happening until after the first day had already passed. Is it true that it was so ridiculously set up that Square-Enix didn't bother showing up on the so-called "show floor" on the last day?
News-wise, there was little that was new. I can understand big games like Halo 3, MGS4 and SMG taking so long that they span at least two E3s, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be new stuff too. And what little there was wasn't all that interesting. I'll probably get Wii Fit, but I don't see myself loving it by a "being blown away by it" amount.
I'm already excited about SMG, MP3:C, and SSBB, for sure, but E3 didn't really boost that much. Sure, we got release dates and a little bit of footage. I just wish there could've been at least one game we hadn't heard of to get me freshly excited again.
If the limited amount of news was due to the limited space and the awkward formats to show new products, I certainly hope E3 will reconsider and go back to the "mayhem" it used to be.
Post by: EasyCure on July 15, 2007, 04:11:22 AM
If they did things the way you wanted we'd have tons of megaton game announcements to get us hyped only to be crushed later when the game(s) get quietly canceled or delayed. With the way they're doing things we can enjoy so many good hands straight thru the holiday and by the time we finish them we'll be hit with news of the next new batch of games to look forward to in the spring-winter seasons.
you guys are just complaining for the sake of forum tradition. You yourself got your hopes up to be let down this year, not kill last year when nintendo unknown us the last secret of the wii would be revealed.
Post by: D_MaN87 on July 15, 2007, 08:15:54 AM
Post by: Artimus on July 15, 2007, 08:42:23 AM
Post by: BigJim on July 15, 2007, 09:23:30 AM
But as for E3 and actual *PRODUCT*, I agree with the OP that the E3 was lacking compared to past shows. Should E3 even continue, this will probably be its future course. It's not about impressing the masses anymore (it never should have been). A lot of information has been trickling out over the last several weeks too, so many newsbytes were already spoiled.
At the same time, Nintendo seemed to forget their E3 audience. It's still primarily the gaming media and gaming bloggers in those seats, and that is what they cover. Their mainstay Mario got a passing mention while a scale with software got the primetime demo slot. (Was there even a date or price given?) It was another of their mainstream plays at the wrong venue.
Of course, you're not going to beat the moment of Zelda TP's unveiling. So the show is forever spoiled no matter what.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 15, 2007, 10:24:55 AM
Post by: nickmitch on July 15, 2007, 10:45:25 AM
Post by: Shift Key on July 15, 2007, 11:29:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
When Nintendo's E3 focus is the mainstream gamer, it's only natural that the hardcore crowd feels ignored and a bit let down. Nintendo is just doing good business.
Who on earth said that the "E3 Media & Business Summit" (as it was called this year) has to satisfy the hardcore gamer? They scaled down the space, scaled down attendances and truly moved away from the grand event of previous years, so why should the hardcore gamers still expect the same result after three days?
The people who complained about Nintendo not meeting their expectations should chill out. If you are that concerned about the results of the show then you're probably a hardcore gamer arguing on some forum with another hardcore gamer. Go outside and get a life.
Post by: decoyman on July 15, 2007, 12:38:45 PM
Though it's true that there was no "WHAT-THE-CAN'T-BELIEVE-IT" moment. It was just a flurry of body shots instead of one giant haymaker. For me, that's cool. (But thanks to Mashiro for reminding us what a haymaker feels like with the video link. I couldn't help smiling remembering that.)
Post by: Mashiro on July 15, 2007, 12:47:04 PM
In another thread I came to realze we have the GDC coming up in Leipzig (Aug. 20-22) and then TGS (Sep 20-23).
So we just had E3 and already next month there will be another game conference then followed by TGS the following month . . . that's a lot of conferences all in a row.
I would say considering the size and reformat of E3 this year and given the closeness of the shows, I bet each company is holding some "trump cards" for both GDC and TGS. It may not be Megaton but I guarantee we will be seeing more of what is to come in 2008 from these other two shows.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 16, 2007, 05:36:51 AM
If Nintendo isn't showing games that aren't due in the same year anymore then this is the transition year. Next year will be more exciting because those will be games we haven't seen yet. This switch required us to have a year where there was a lot of "repeats" from the year before.
I am disappointed in the third party support. It still isn't really showing signs of improving. What good is it for us if Nintendo becomes number one but still gets weak third party support? Aside from wanting Nintendo to be successful enough to keep themselves running that was the whole reason that I ever wanted them to do better.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 16, 2007, 07:20:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
This E3 had some really exciting games shown. The only problem is the ones I'm interested in are ones I already knew about. The biggest new game is Wii Fit, which is mainstream non-gamer stuff that I'm not interested in at all. That plus E3 scaling back and Nintendo's constant emphasis on non-gamers makes for what I find to be a very dull E3. E3 was disappointing but the full lineup of games shown at E3 was not. There's good stuff coming out later this year.
If Nintendo isn't showing games that aren't due in the same year anymore then this is the transition year. Next year will be more exciting because those will be games we haven't seen yet. This switch required us to have a year where there was a lot of "repeats" from the year before.
I am disappointed in the third party support. It still isn't really showing signs of improving. What good is it for us if Nintendo becomes number one but still gets weak third party support? Aside from wanting Nintendo to be successful enough to keep themselves running that was the whole reason that I ever wanted them to do better.
Have you been under a rock? THird party support is rapidly growing, even Activision announced that a big chunk of its resources were being put towards the Wii. In regards to other 3rd parties, I seen a release list of scheduled games and it is staggering (I will try to find it).
Post by: Kairon on July 16, 2007, 09:25:13 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 16, 2007, 09:59:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Howwever, we didn't see the sort of third-party blowout we were hoping for... in fact, it's almost as if Wii Fit, Viva Pinata Party, and Scene-It were the ONLY new games announced from anyone and everyone!
Who was hoping for a 3rd party blow out? We didn't even know what to expect from E3!
Post by: Kairon on July 16, 2007, 10:17:38 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 16, 2007, 11:23:23 AM
As for Nintendo using E3 as a platform to showcase WiiFit. I have to say that wasn't a good move. I mean, at this point Nintendo could have showcased WiiFit at any event and gotten press coverage. E3 is a GAMER event (and I have a hard time even calling WiiFit a game), and even though it has been downsized it should remain that way. And let's be honest here, did E3 ever REALLY get that much non-gamer media coverage anyway? Yeah, it was the largest and, thus, more publicized event for a while, but even then there wasn't THAT much media coverage unless something like a new console was unveiled. And so far I haven't seen much more than tiny blurbs on Wiifit--and I've definitely seen more news bits on other things from this E3. Hell, I live in LA, 15 minutes from the Convention Center where E3 used to be, and the only non-gamers news I ever really saw for it was a little 2-minute blurb on the 10 o-clock news explaining why the downtown area seemed to be infested with nerds for a week. Non-gamer media coverage for Wii Fit has been minimal, from what I've noticed. So I can't really say Nintendo's focusing on Wii Fit this E3 was worth it.
Post by: UERD on July 16, 2007, 11:26:41 AM
Quote
From what I've read, the format of this year's E3 was a disaster. It was incredibly disorganized with major events scattered across Santa Monica instead of one centralized location. For the news sources that had to keep up with everything. I can imagine just getting to these events being a huge shore.
My feelings exactly.
Quote
Non-gamer media coverage for Wii Fit has been minimal, from what I've noticed.
CNN and a bunch of other news media sites had stuff about E3, including Wii Fit. But if you're just talking about TV/newspapers, you're perfectly right.
Quote
E3 is a GAMER event
E3 is now officially a craptacular event. Nintendo could have revealed Wii Fit in a stinky wooden outhouse somewhere in Alabama, and it would have had at least three-quarters of the impact (for a much lower price).
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 11:54:20 AM
While I agree that Nintendo still needs to show us the games which we all enjoy, I feel it is necessary to showcase more of the non-games and hark on things like the Wii Board to keep expanding its market to new gamers.
I think Nintendo's philosophy is as follows: Continue to capture the casual and "non-gamer" market which leads to increased market shares. With increased market shares comes more 3rd party interest. With more 3rd party interest comes more games. With more games comes more variety and with more variety comes the chance to get more of your "standard" gamers to purchase the system.
Let's be honest here, I would be willing to make a safe bet that 90% of the Nintendo fanbase has purchased a Wii. Those of us who love Nintendo games are ALREADY sold on the system.
Nintendo knows this and hey they are delivering the goods, MP3, SMG, SSBB are three top tier AA titles that just scream of polish and quality and surely all 3 games will have us drooling and loving our Wii more than ever before. Mario Kart is coming on '08 and while I would have liked to have seen more I know it's just a matter of time before we do and that's fine.
Again we're already sold on Nintendo, we're already sold on Wii. I'm not going to return my Wii because "Damn more cool new stuff wasn't shown that directly appeals to me...rawr!".
It is in this respect that Nintendo is incredibly smart in marketing more forcefully to the non-gamer casual market, they know they have their core audience, now they want to expand it and I think they are doing a fantastic job of doing so.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 16, 2007, 12:13:51 PM
Quote
I think Nintendo's philosophy is as follows: Continue to capture the casual and "non-gamer" market which leads to increased market shares. With increased market shares comes more 3rd party interest. With more 3rd party interest comes more games. With more games comes more variety and with more variety comes the chance to get more of your "standard" gamers to purchase the system.
But I think the one major folly with this line of thinking is the idea that increased 3rd party support is going to be the type that gamers want. I mean, look at it this way: How many Wii Sports/Brain Age clones are there out there? Yeah, we're getting a lot of third party support due to the Wii's success, but 3rd parties aren't THAT blind. If they see that the biggest focus with the Wii is casual/non-gamer games, and if they see that that's the route Nintendo's taking with the console, THOSE are the kind of games that 3rd parties are going to support the Wii with. That's what the case is now. I mean, yeah I can't completely knock the Wii's 3rd party library, we are getting some decent 3rd party games in the future. But too much of the 3rd party efforts for gamers on the Wii come in the form of ports or half-efforts, meanwhile most if not ALL of third parties are getting ready to launch a big steaming pile of non-gamer crap at the Wii.
There's more to sales than just the numbers. 3rd parties aren't going to go "Wow, look at all the non-gamers Nintendo's bringing in with Wii Sports and Brain Age! Let's support the Wii with the next Resident Evil!" Hopefully, though, with Nintendo's heavy hitters coming soon as well as some major third party games like Zack and Wiki, No More Heroes, and the Crystal Bearers, the inevitable success of those games as well as the crash of the non-gamer sector (and, I mean, it's GOING to crash soon. You can only pump a system with so many mini-game clones before it bursts. Its exactly what happened in the 80s) will force 3rd parties to realize that there IS a market for GAMES on the Wii.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 16, 2007, 12:15:48 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 16, 2007, 12:21:32 PM
Quote
I guess you are right Pittbboi, Nintendo should fold up house right now, what they are doing is not work.
Oh come on! Where did I even SAY that!?
There IS a demand for actual games on the Wii. This much is OBVIOUS. What I'm saying is it's going to take the success of those games for 3rd parties to realize the Wii isn't just the mini-game machine. Hopefully that'll be the case by the end of this year. I have no doubt in my mind that all of the Gamer games scheduled for the Wii this year are going to sell BIG...and then ONCE AGAIN third parties are going to one big double take on the Wii and realize there's a market for AAA gamer games on the Wii and not just Games-for-Granny. What I'm also saying is that the Wii's numbers ALONE won't do that, because right now Nintendo has the world convinced that the Wii is being supported by mostly casuals, which is part of the reason why 3rd parties are shoving all this clone crap at us. Numbers don't mean squat for us gamers if 3rd parties are convinced that those numbers mean casuals.
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 12:29:03 PM
There was no quality control (something Nintendo made sure to have with the NES, which had it's own controversy in regards to standards and contracts...) anyway. ET comes to mind as a catalyst for these events, when released on the Atarti platform gamers got a game that had a 6 week creation cycle and symbolized the beginning of the end for that Video Game era which then resulted in a crash.
As GP says, RE:4 is supposedly proving to be doing better than expected and if E3 shows anything it is that the third party support is building. The casual market is in no danger of crashing and will thrive healthily along side Nintendo's more core gamer games. It'd be like saying "man how many times can they make a FPS!!! Zomg the FPS market is going to crash!". Seriously, if the gaming market can handle about oh a million games based on WWII, I am sure the gaming market can sustain mini game games.
3rd parties know there is a market for game games on the Wii, they do. It will just be a matter of time before the higher profile 3rd party games make its way to the Wii. Believe me, it's a changing point in the industry and Nintendo is climbing back to the top. Remember Playstation didn't start with the best line up of games in the world and look how that turned out.
Whenever there is a change in the market (especially when the change shifts focus to something new that hasn't been done before; see: wii control set up) it takes time for people to fully "get" what's going on but eventually it catches and the good games will come, and so will the bad, but hey that's what happens when you become market leader.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 16, 2007, 12:42:26 PM
I would actually interpret that as Nintendo taking their fans for granted. Like we'll support them anyway so they don't have to try with us. A good example of this is how most of their new IPs are non-games and most of their big "gamer games" are sequels. They figure if they throw us Mario and Zelda we'll feel we HAVE to buy their console, even if the bulk of the lineup isn't for us.
"RE4 on Wii surpassing expectations definately tells 3rd parties that traditional games don't belong. I guess you are right Pittbboi, Nintendo should fold up house right now, what they are doing is not working."
Considering the Wii third party lineup is full of ports of last-gen games and spinoffs and blatant kids games and some just plain crappy games if anything a LAST GEN game like RE4 doing well just continues the trend of lousy third party support. Remember how on the Cube third parties bailed because the userbase wouldn't buy crap? Well now everything has flip-flopped and few third parties bother to make anything worth a damn because the userbase is so incredibly willing to buy crap they don't see the incentive to offer much else. Why waste time making something good when the vast amount of casual gamers buying the console don't know better?
"E3 is a GAMER event (and I have a hard time even calling WiiFit a game), and even though it has been downsized it should remain that way. And let's be honest here, did E3 ever REALLY get that much non-gamer media coverage anyway?"
I think Nintendo wants to change that. They want videogame industry conventions to get mainstream coverage. I don't think Nintendo really wants to acknowledge a difference between "gamers" and "non-gamers". I think they just want as many people buying the Wii and buying Wii product as possible. They want everyone buying everything they release so the only time they're really going to acknowledge a difference is when gamers express concern over getting left out and they need to say something for damage control. What do they accomplish by telling non-gamers that certain games aren't for them? They want that new group to think EVERYTHING is for them. Now maybe showing Wii Fit at E3 didn't get the level of mainstream attention they wanted. Well this is the first E3 since the Wii was released and all this non-gamer stuff is still pretty new. Nintendo still has to learn about what method to use to get mainstream coverage.
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 12:52:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Again we're already sold on Nintendo, we're already sold on Wii. I'm not going to return my Wii because 'Damn more cool new stuff wasn't shown that directly appeals to me...rawr!'"
I would actually interpret that as Nintendo taking their fans for granted. Like we'll support them anyway so they don't have to try with us. A good example of this is how most of their new IPs are non-games and most of their big "gamer games" are sequels. They figure if they throw us Mario and Zelda we'll feel we HAVE to buy their console, even if the bulk of the lineup isn't for us.
Yeah because Gamecube had so many new IPs oh and so did N64 ::rolls eyes::.
Edit: and for argumentative sake, how many new IPs came about during the SNES era?
Your argument fails.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 16, 2007, 12:59:11 PM
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 01:05:11 PM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Actually I think third parties are shoving us crap is because they missed the Wii train and are trying to get something out.
Agreed. When 99.9% of the third parties were thinking (from last E3) that "Oh man PS3 is going to own the market again" then release comes around and uh oh Wii is a smash hit, it doesn't really give developers a ton of time to shift gears and be like "Well we only had like 5 months but here's our quality Wii title!".
Post by: Ian Sane on July 16, 2007, 01:05:53 PM
Pilotwings, F-Zero and Star Fox for starters plus some "one time" games like Stunt Race FX and a complete revival of Donkey Kong and the introduction of Mario Kart which is so huge and so influencial you could probably count it as a new IP. The N64's switch to 3D made almost everything new and the Gamecube at least had Pikmin and some failed attempts like Eternal Darkness and a major revival in Metroid Prime. But I complained that the Cube was too sequel happy years before the Wii was revealed.
It doesn't even matter because just the introduction of ANY new IP in an older generation is significant in comparision. For new first party IPs on the Wii that are not non-gamer focused I currently count, um, zero which makes Pikmin alone look significant in comparison. Maybe Super Mario Galaxy is different enough to count it a revival (probably not but it could be) but I'm seeing a lot of established formulas being presented as the "gamer games" while the fresh new ideas are non-gamer.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 16, 2007, 01:09:16 PM
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I would actually interpret that as Nintendo taking their fans for granted. Like we'll support them anyway so they don't have to try with us. A good example of this is how most of their new IPs are non-games and most of their big "gamer games" are sequels. They figure if they throw us Mario and Zelda we'll feel we HAVE to buy their console, even if the bulk of the lineup isn't for us.
Yeah, it's sad, but sometimes it seems like this year is going to be Nintendo's last hurrah for gamers. I mean, there has been a pretty vocal concern from a lot of gamers who feel like they're being left out of Nintendo's grand plan, and Nintendo knows this. This E3 would have been the perfect forum to put some of those fears to rest, and the fact that they chose to completely ignore that is not a good sign. I mean, yeah, this holiday season is going to be a great time to own a Wii for the gamer--nobody with a brain can deny that. I mean, these are games we've been waiting for for years, and two of them are almost a year late. But after this year, what's next? Nintendo was quiet about so much, and we can't speculate on EVERYTHING. Project HAMMER has pretty much been canceled and its resources shift to casual games, and Disaster: Day of Crisis got ZERO face time at all except for a Nintendo rep saying that development was going "nicely". These two games (along with Mario Kart) were supposed to be the Gamer IPs from Nintendo that kept us "satisfied" until Nintendo could, once again, recycle Mario and Zelda (and Metroid, in some form). Every day the gamer's place in Nintendo's 2008 seems to be more and more uncertain. It's becoming more and more obvious that Nintendo has been seduced by the prospect of non-gamer revenue and the majority of their resources just may be shifted to pleasing them, leaving us with the scraps and baseless speculation on what the next iteration of an aging Nintendo franchise is going to be like and how many years it's going to be before we get it.
Luckily, though, a handful of good gamer IPs from 3rd parties should be arriving next year to fill in what I imagine will be a pretty big gap. C'mon onnnn Crystal Bearers...
Post by: Deguello on July 16, 2007, 01:10:49 PM
Prove it isn't.
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 01:18:22 PM
Also Ian, that's my point, sure there are SOME new IPs and that's over the entire consoles life span!
Wii is still young and is still VERY new in terms of how it plays compared to any previous console so I wouldn't say the sky is falling yet.
Edit: And just to clarify my point, Nintendo fans usually DO buy Nintendo consoles because of the classic IPs, any new IPs that become very successful (such as star fox, dkc, mario kart, etc) was just icing on the cake when they were first introduced.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 16, 2007, 01:21:43 PM
WE STILL HAVE HALF OF 2007 TO TAKE CARE OF.
Post by: BigJim on July 16, 2007, 01:53:22 PM
Old-school Nintendo fans do need to come to terms with it, as much as we hate it, but new-gen Nintendo fans also need to stop being dismissive about it and/or pretending it's not happening.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 16, 2007, 01:59:20 PM
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Originally posted by: BigJim
It's become pretty clear that Iwata was correct and very insightful when he said that the Wii was a secondary system for hardcore players.
Old-school Nintendo fans do need to come to terms with it, as much as we hate it, but new-gen Nintendo fans also need to stop being dismissive about it and/or pretending it's not happening.
What in the heck is a new-gen Nintendo fan?
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 02:08:48 PM
If you were a "hardcore" gamer during the GC era, I can assure you, GC wasn't your main system. The same can be said during the N64 era when Sony took over the number 1 spot.
I think the sooner "old-school" Nintendo fans realize Nintendo is still making the same great games we've been getting for years WHILE expanding the market , the video game world will be a better place.
The nay sayers have no basis for their arguments. Nintendo arguably lived off of first party games for the past two console generations with a few second and third party games being worthwhile. It's been like this for a good long while now guys, Nintendo has always used their IPs to keep themselves afloat. Just because some new IPs aren't geared towards you specifically it doesn't make them BAD. The new non-gamer IPs just add to Nintendo's supply of already existing IPs.
Post by: Mario on July 16, 2007, 02:36:22 PM
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I think the sooner "old-school" Nintendo fans realize Nintendo is still making the same great games we've been getting for years WHILE expanding the market , the world will be a better place.
Not really, the world will still be exactly the same because there are only about 6 of them in existance.
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 02:42:28 PM
I should edit that to say video game world . . . would make more sense but your comment still applies haha.
Post by: UERD on July 16, 2007, 02:50:38 PM
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Yeah, it's sad, but sometimes it seems like this year is going to be Nintendo's last hurrah for gamers.
WII IS DEAD, PS3 REIGNS SUPREME, 'VIDEO GAMES' RELEGATED TO THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 02:52:56 PM
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Originally posted by: UERDQuote
Yeah, it's sad, but sometimes it seems like this year is going to be Nintendo's last hurrah for gamers.
WII IS DEAD, PS3 REIGNS SUPREME, 'VIDEO GAMES' RELEGATED TO THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.
End of the world CONFIRMED.
Post by: Kairon on July 16, 2007, 06:13:24 PM
The hope for Wii hardcore games is third parties. Nintendo games are a GIVEN. There's no use talking about them, they're coming, we know they're good, no big surprises there. Maybe a new IP, maybe not, blah. But the REAL tastey hardcore stuff will have to come from third parties, and that's what the (non)Nintendo fan within me is watching for. I don't know if it's fair to ask people to wait another two months for the TGS, but if we don't see a lot of major game announcements by then, I'll be seriously questioning the adoption rate of the Wii amongst third parties (and hence, supply of hardcore games) no matter how much anecdotal evidence we have otherwise.
Sure, Nintendo is good. But they'll have failed if all they've succeeded in changing is themselves. They're out to change an entire INDUSTRY here folks. If nothing expands, if nothing changes, if the Wii's innovatiuon turns out cosmetic... then they'll have failed, no matter how many consoles they've sold or how much money they'll have made.
Post by: Urkel on July 16, 2007, 06:44:12 PM
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Originally posted by: BigJim
It's become pretty clear that Iwata was correct and very insightful when he said that the Wii was a secondary system for hardcore players.
Is that... what Iwata actually said? My interpretation of that quote was that he was saying that Wii is so inexpensive and different from the other consoles that virtually every hardcore gamer is going to end up buying a Wii, even if they owned another console already. Not the other way around.
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Old-school Nintendo fans do need to come to terms with it, as much as we hate it, but new-gen Nintendo fans also need to stop being dismissive about it and/or pretending it's not happening.
Just like they abandoned their fans with the DS?
Are you even going to attempt to refute that?
Post by: IceCold on July 16, 2007, 06:51:59 PM
Post by: Urkel on July 16, 2007, 07:50:21 PM
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In fact, he goes as far as to say Nintendo hopes those hardcore enough to care about the graphical differences and buy a PS3 or Xbox360 will also buy a Revolution, since the Revolution will provide unique experiences. A bold statement--one clearly demonstrating a shift in Nintendo's console strategy. Nintendo isn't trying to be number two: it is aiming for the top spot from a different angle--one that is profitable for both Nintendo and its partners.
Suck on that.
Suck. On. That.
All he's saying is that he expects graphic whores to pick up a Wii, er, Revolution too.
Man, I've seen this statement used so far out of context so, SO many times.
Post by: BigJim on July 16, 2007, 09:31:29 PM
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What in the heck is a new-gen Nintendo fan?
Someone that's not an old-school fan.
And before you ask what an old-school fan is, it's the people "complaining" about the non-games.
Mysterious, no?
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I think the sooner "old-school" Nintendo fans realize Nintendo is still making the same great games we've been getting for years WHILE expanding the market , the video game world will be a better place.
The nay sayers have no basis for their arguments. Nintendo arguably lived off of first party games for the past two console generations with a few second and third party games being worthwhile. It's been like this for a good long while now guys, Nintendo has always used their IPs to keep themselves afloat. Just because some new IPs aren't geared towards you specifically it doesn't make them BAD. The new non-gamer IPs just add to Nintendo's supply of already existing IPs.
"Same" is one of the keywords there. Many of these games are indeed the same thing again.
Point is, just because there are gamer/hardcore/whatever games in the lineup, they are not immediately silenced out of having a valid opinion. The technical availability of those types of games doesn't mean they are going to be satisfied. That is specifically why I said they need to stop dismissing other opinions.
This issue has come up plenty of times before, long before launch even, when people were using Red Steel as proof positive of a non-stop flow AAA hardcore titles to keep us happy, so we should just shut up already... Yeah, not so much. Just more of the dismissal dreck. That was pretty "baseless" reasoning to me. But that is neither here or there.
The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. The bottom line is Nintendo is not big enough. They struggled back in the N64 days as you mentioned, and they certainly aren't big enough now with a deliberately split focus.
Nobody's really complaining about what they're doing. It's what they aren't doing. Until Nintendo proves they can do it all for real (Kairon wisely alludes to 3rd parties being key here) then this issue will continue and remains valid, regardless of what others that are personally satisfied feel about it.
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Just like they abandoned their fans with the DS?
Are you even going to attempt to refute that?
Can't sensibly refute a strawman. Abandon is your word, not mine.
Post by: Kairon on July 16, 2007, 10:06:45 PM
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Originally posted by: BigJim
Until Nintendo proves they can do it all for real (Kairon wisely alludes to 3rd parties being key here) then this issue will continue and remains valid, regardless of what others that are personally satisfied feel about it.
Hear that? I'm wise!
But yeah... it's cool and all if that the Wii is selling so much, and Nintendo puts out the games we all know they'll put out, but it'll be an immensely phyrric victory if we don't get the majority of third party support. It'd essentially be a Gamecube 2. That's EXACTLY what we're trying to avoid.
Post by: Shift Key on July 16, 2007, 10:51:01 PM
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
E3 is a GAMER event
Bupbow, troll. E3 is a media event. That's why you're so close to it and yet you never get to attend.
For all those people bitching about new IPs, look at what the real definition of an IP is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property
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The term intellectual property reflects the idea that this subject matter is the product of the mind or the intellect.
BUH GUH DUH WUH, you may be asking?
Well, its simply concerning an idea that is unique, different or distinct. If you were to take several ideas (or one if you were lazy) and put them into a tangible form in this case it would be called a game.
So we just had E3. Games were displayed. Some were expected, others were new.
I'm not going to list off all the E3 games, because quite frankly I'm behind the times and not interested in showing you guys the forest when you complain about a tree.
Oh, you were asking for something specific. "Where is X game?" "Why did game X just go to the PS3?" "X is just a non-game." "There are no hardcore games coming out"
When did everyone get in their heads that E3 was where all cards had to be shown?
At the start of the year the popularity of the Wii was starting to show. Six months is a long time in the game development process, and most companies were caught off guard. And we all remember how badly Silicon Knights were mocked for showing an incomplete build at last year's E3 (if you don't, just google "Dennis Dyack whinge blog" and you should see it).
You people expect to see results overnight when things change, and then complain because they only see the tip of the metaphorical iceberg.
Things are always changing. But the indicators are there. If you can't see that then its your own fault.
Grow up, petulant children.
Post by: EasyCure on July 17, 2007, 05:23:26 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 05:29:38 AM
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Bupbow, troll. E3 is a media event. That's why you're so close to it and yet you never get to attend.
Oh please. Yes E3 is a media event. But it's a media event for GAMES (it's what keeps it from just being a general technology event) and it's an event that's followed by mostly GAMING media that have readerships composed of mostly GAMERS. Just Google it and see where the majority of E3 media coverage comes from this year and every year. Thank you.
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When did everyone get in their heads that E3 was where all cards had to be shown?
And when did you get it into your head that that's what ANYONE wanted? I can only really speak for myself, but I'm sure what most of us "complaining" wanted was at LEAST some physical indication that gamers would have something to look forward to AFTER Nintendo's tried and true franchises hit the shelves. A 5 second movie clip would have been all it took to put fears that Nintendo was abandoning gamer projects for the sake of casual games to rest. In no way do I think anyone was asking for or expecting playable demos and release dates for every Nintendo game ever mentioned or speculated on in the past year. Just an indication of where they're taking the Wii and what we, as Wii owners, can expect in future. Outside of Mario Kart, we got none of that. And hell, if even SONY could do it...
Post by: Ian Sane on July 17, 2007, 06:32:36 AM
Prove it isn't."
No game that came out prior to Iwata's speech about gamer drift and non-gamers and such is a non-game. To say so is revisionist history. From a modern point of view several older titles would be considered non-games now. Pong if made now would be designed for non-gamers. But it wasn't made now. It was made at a time where paddles playing ping-pong was a huge deal for videogames. Pilotwings was made for the SNES audience which was entirely made of gamers. The idea of attracting people who never gamed or had lost interest didn't even really exist. If you had a SNES you were a gamer and every game that wasn't blatant edutainment was a game. Pilotwings was a very advanced game at the time designed for people who played videogames and those who played videogames ate it up.
Naming some game from years ago and declaring it a non-game is like when people say that America's forefathers would have supported such-and-such political idea that didn't exist at the time. Non-gaming started with Iwata in charge of Nintendo. And the issue is neglect of the old audience which even if you decide that older games were non-games it doesn't matter because those "non-games" weren't a problem. The problem isn't expanding the audience but rather changing the audience. I wouldn't care if Nintendo made non-games if I felt that the focus on gamers was not diminished or if Nintendo had demonstrated in the past to show commitment to anything that isn't there main focus. They aren't and that's why I'm concerned and in the past when Nintendo doesn't really care (third party support, mature games, online support on the Gamecube) they only do a token effort.
Nintendo and anyone here defending them can do their best to try to prove to me that Nintendo isn't neglecting gamers but if you have to tell me I'm not going to be convinced. I would KNOW if Nintendo was putting in the proper effort because I wouldn't need to discuss it. This isn't all theoretical. This is ultimately about customer satisfaction.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 06:36:12 AM
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 06:48:44 AM
Edit: Ian a better way of putting your "argument" would be "I'm just not happy with Nintendo on a personal level. I don't enjoy their games anymore". That's all I get from you when it comes to this discussion.
Nintendo isn't changing their audience and has done nothing to show you that they are. You can complain all you want about the audience changing but nothing has been done (On the DS nor on the Wii) to illustrate and prove your point.
If the time comes where we go "wow the only game in 2008 we're getting is mario kart!?" then I would agree with you. But with games like (as GP said) SSBB, Mario Kart, LoZ:PH, SMG, BWII all coming out within the next 6 months or so, I just don't see how Nintendo is turning it's back on us. They are release an incredibly good string of first party games that are for gamers (and in some cases anyone else who wants to pick up and play).
I just don't see the problem.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 17, 2007, 07:07:04 AM
Releasing JUST those, all of which are sequels, with the crappy third party support the Wii has? That's no different than the Cube or maybe worse.
"Nintendo isn't changing their audience and has done nothing to show you that they are."
I think Nintendo has shown tons but the "Nintendo is perfect" people are happy so they don't notice or care. I express concern that all Nintendo thinks gamers want are sequels and then I get a list of sequels back as proof that I'm wrong.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 07:17:49 AM
You're saying I think "Nintendo is perfect" (which I don't) and I don't notice the change. Show me where the change is. Where has Nintendo SHOWN us they are changing the market to non-gamers? There's no evidence of that in the least so your argument doesn't hold water.
Now then in terms of ORIGINAL games, so what if Nintendo hasn't shown us many new IPs yet. They're getting out their sure fire hits for the holiday season and this is something the Wii needs. I would rather get the sequels now that I KNOW I will enjoy and then check out some new IPs later.
You're flip flopping your arguments and again I think your argument is still flawed to begin with. It's your own PERSONAL tastes that are the issue at hand, not the company. The company in the majority of the peoples eyes aren't doing wrong because we enjoy what has come and what is coming our way.
I respect your own opinion but your opinions =/= what is really happening at Nintendo.
Nintendo HAS release new IPs but they are 'non-games' so they don't count in your eyes and again that comes down to personal tastes. I, for example, loved Elite Beat Agents. I had fun with Nintendogs. Yet I still enjoy gamer games.
Again I respect your personal tastes but saying we think "Nintendo is perfect" so hence we are blind and wrong in our discussion is a fallacy. Just because you don't like the new IPs that Nintendo has or the sequels coming out does not mean Nintendo is shunning gamers.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 07:19:10 AM
Post by: Requiem on July 17, 2007, 07:34:54 AM
We can't have you all crapping in a thread at once!
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 07:44:10 AM
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Show me where the change is. Where has Nintendo SHOWN us they are changing the market to non-gamers? There's no evidence of that in the least so your argument doesn't hold water.
Not trying to argue FOR Ian here but this is ridiculous. There's PLENTY there to show concern for where Nintendo's going. The proof is in the games that are being released. YES, the end of this year is going to be great, all of Nintendo's big games are going to rock hard and there are a bunch of games between the cracks that are going to be great as well (Bwii immediately comes to mind). HOWEVER, these are ALL games that we have known about since last E3 and have wanted since the Wii was the Revolution, and many of these games were PUSHED back to make the end of this year rock as hard as it's going to. The Big 3 were never the cause of concern, because until Nintendo shows otherwise, they're just fulfilling their obligations with those games. Where, however, are the NEW game announcements (other than Mario Kart, which one could argue has always been a casual friendly game anyway)? What game has Nintendo announced at any point this year for the Wii that has a gamer slant? I don't remember them announcing any. Heck, if anything gamer games have been DISAPPEARING from their roster. HAMMER is canceled and, as I recall, Disaster was supposed to be released sometime later this year and yet there wasn't a DROP of info for it. Yet Nintendo's emphasis on non-gamers has only increased and their big celebratory wank-a-thon of an E3 show proved it.
Again, the sequels from Nintendo aren't the concern, and never were. But at the same time you can't use Nintendo's Big 3 to claim that Nintendo still cares about gamers and are going to continue care about gamers because, frankly, if Nintendo were to cancel THOSE games they'd be digging their own grave. It's the "What's next?" that's been bothering people. And unfortunately Nintendo hasn't shown AT ALL that they're going to be prioritizing gamers after this year, but there's loads of evidence to suggest that the non-gamer market is only going to become even more of a priority.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 07:49:45 AM
There is still the GDC conference AND TGS to show off new stuff.
So while E3 may not have shown much of what is to come in 2008 in terms of gamer games. . . they haven't shown much for non-gamer games either outside of Wii Fit. So E3 as "evidence" doesn't really hold water.
What's important to remember is E3 is no longer THE be all end all show. It's timing this year was WAY later than previous and the size is now smaller. When you look at it logically it makes more sense for Nintendo or ANY of the companies for that matter to maybe save thier big guns for TGS which is only two months away.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 08:06:01 AM
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Yeah but E3 is entirely different now anyway. In fact aside from Sony (who has little to nothing really massive coming out in 07) both MS and Nintendo stuck to showing mainly what's coming our way this year.
There was a difference between Nintendo and Microsoft's shows. Microsoft came right out at the beginning and SAID that all they were showing were games we'd be playing this year. People are just ASSUMING that Nintendo did the same because they really didn't show much and, in fact, the assumption is inaccurate because both Mario Kart and Wii Fit are not coming this year.
And E3 is only a different event if you listen to Nintendo. Both Sony and Microsoft (and pretty much everyone else) treated this year's E3 like any other--just much smaller and much more exclusive. E3 is not suddenly some completely different event with a completely different audience.
I'm not saying that Nintendo won't announce some new gamer game sometime in the future. Maybe they will. But THIS E3 (which is the point of this thread, afterall) was not at all an indication of that. So I don't think it's fair that those actually standing up and calling Nintendo out on a lackluster show, and showing concern for the future of Nintendo as far as gamers go are being blanket-labeled as nothing but baseless whiners. Nintendo failed to reassure the gamer with this year's E3. It's as simple as that, really.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 08:14:10 AM
So what we're to assume that Nintendo ONLY has Wii Fit and Mario Kart coming out in 2008? Come on get real.
Edit: Again I think the show timing was way too late this year and now if the companies so choose they can wait another month or two to polish off their games to show at TGS or GDC.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 08:20:55 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 08:42:04 AM
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 08:54:28 AM
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Everyday it's starting to seem like the answer to that is non-gamers. And what if that mentality spreads to our beloved franchises?
Oh man you're right. . .
could you just imagine what would happen if oh, just for argument sake, they made a Zelda game that appealed to non-gamers AND gamers!?
That would be so horrible! Our poor beloved franchises!!!!!
Oh wait that's right they did that already and so far people are saying it's one of the best Zeldas ever created.
People fear change WAY too much. Do you honestly think Nintendo is going to sh!t on their franchises? If LoZ:PH proves anything it's that games can appeal to both a new audience and still be a great game that us older more seasoned gamers can enjoy.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 09:03:30 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 17, 2007, 09:11:13 AM
Pittboi, Ian, simply because nothing has been shown doesn't mean things aren't happening. Why don't we all just sit back and relax and see what happens. You can jump all over Nintendo if they lose their focus too much a year from now, but as of right now I see nothing worth getting worked up over. E3 was toned down greatly and NOONE announced anything huge. E3 is no longer an indicator of the future, it is just a small opportunity to showcase a subsection of your games that are going to be available in the near future.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 09:12:46 AM
Mr. Jack Wins. Flawless victory =D
Post by: Adrock on July 17, 2007, 09:25:03 AM
Anyway, as for E3, Super Mario Galaxy really wowed me. I'm looking forward to it much more after E3. So, no, I wasn't disappointed at all. In fact, I just reserved both Mario Kart Wii and Wii Fit yesterday. I'm happy with what was shown. Nintendo can't blow people away every year, but they can still have a very good showing.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 09:26:59 AM
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Originally posted by: Adrock
Nintendo should change Zelda to keep it fresh, not to appeal to non-gamers. In their attempt to widen the audience of their existing franchises, Nintendo has made series like Zelda, for example, way too easy. I guess I just want Nintendo to create new franchises whether they be for gamers, non-gamers, or both. I know I'll probably get slack for this, but I don't think Nintendo should "compromise" (for lack of a better term) their old franchises by trying to attract non-gamers. Series like Zelda appeal to a certain audience and they should be made specifically with that audience in mind.
Well I think Zelda being too easy is up for debate, because I found TP to be just as challenging as OOT. With that said you are right, they need to change Zelda (Like they have done with Mario) at least enough to where it will widen its appeal and get out of "Been there done that" territory.
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 17, 2007, 09:27:51 AM
I'm sorry, but after you play Phantom Hourglass you'll change your tune...
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 09:29:48 AM
And I think LoZ:PH is doing just that from the reports I've been hearing about the game. It was in their effort to change the series gameplay wise that they not only made it fun and challenging for veterans but accessible to a new group of gamers.
It's very smart.
I get this vibe from a lot of the nay-sayers "if THIS game appeals to THIS audience its THIS. and THIS is bad we should be having THAT not THIS." Why can't there be a MIDDLE area (which is just what Miyamoto was talking about) where *Gasp* gamers of old and gamers of new can enjoy the same games?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 09:30:14 AM
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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"Series like Zelda appeal to a certain audience and they should be made specifically with that audience in mind."
I'm sorry, but you after you play Phantom Hourglass you'll change your tune...
Stop teasing me with Zelda: TP.
Post by: Requiem on July 17, 2007, 09:31:01 AM
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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
I would have to say this is one of the dumbest arguments I have ever read. Not a single person in this forum has any idea what Nintendo is up to behind the scenes.
Pittboi, Ian, simply because nothing has been shown doesn't mean things aren't happening. Why don't we all just sit back and relax and see what happens. You can jump all over Nintendo if they lose their focus too much a year from now, but as of right now I see nothing worth getting worked up over. E3 was toned down greatly and NOONE announced anything huge. E3 is no longer an indicator of the future, it is just a small opportunity to showcase a subsection of your games that are going to be available in the near future.
You actually read it?
*Applauds*
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 17, 2007, 09:34:36 AM
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Originally posted by: Mashiro
I get this vibe from a lot of the nay-sayers "if THIS game appeals to THIS audience its THIS. and THIS is bad we should be having THAT not THIS." Why can't there be a MIDDLE area (which is just what Miyamoto was talking about) where *Gasp* gamers of old and gamers of new can enjoy the same games?
Miyamoto is an idiot. What has he done in gaming anyway? Seriously, we need to leave all the sequels the same that way we appease the self-proclaimed "hardcore" gamers who don't want so many sequels anyway.
Confused yet?
Good you should be.
/sarcasm
Post by: BigJim on July 17, 2007, 09:37:08 AM
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Ian a better way of putting your "argument" would be "I'm just not happy with Nintendo on a personal level. I don't enjoy their games anymore".
Everybody's comments here are opinion. There's no reason why people that disagree with yours should qualify it with such qualifiers as "me personally, IMO" etc.
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Nintendo isn't changing their audience and has done nothing to show you that they are.
WHERE have you been?
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I just don't see the problem.
And I repeat that the technical availability of those types of games doesn't mean they are going to be satisfied. Not every hardcore game is made for every hardcore gamer. Nintendo is not big enough to satisfy every audience in the face of questionable and unknown 3rd party support. Therefore, the issue continues like it or not, just as it existed for half of the GameCube's life.
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It's your own PERSONAL tastes that are the issue at hand, not the company. The company in the majority of the peoples eyes aren't doing wrong because we enjoy what has come and what is coming our way.
Of course, it's the fault of the people with dissenting opinions. Boy I'm glad that beacon of truth was uncovered.
Again with the desire to qualify what they say so you feel less threatened by counter opinion. You've expressed plenty of your personal taste here and nobody's expecting you qualify it. Expecting it of others is ridiculous.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 09:38:41 AM
*Wild MR.JACK uses Confusion on poster MASHIRO!*
*MASHIRO is confused!
. . .
it hurt itself in its confusion.*
Well played Mr. Jack. Well played. . . btw I love that Icon and your title lol.
Post by: Adrock on July 17, 2007, 09:45:26 AM
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But see Adrock, as Miyamoto put it during a post E3 pree conference interview, Nintendos goal is to make games that not only appeal to the new and old audience but to make games that are fun for BOTH.
Yes, but do they have to use Zelda? I'm not saying that they can't make existing franchises that appeal to both new and old audiences. I never disputed that Phantom Hourglass did not do just that (though I never played it). Rather, I ask why they don't just create a completely original franchise to accomplish that goal. Doesn't everyone win?
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 09:49:04 AM
I don't want to be playing the same freaking game over and over again with no changes. It gets boring. Even the OoT formula has worn pretty thin. It doesn't make it bad but a change wouldn't be bad either if done right.
I'm not saying don't try it with new IPs but don't leave out the current franchises.
If the game formulas never changed the game world would be a boring place.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 09:56:26 AM
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I get this vibe from a lot of the nay-sayers "if THIS game appeals to THIS audience its THIS. and THIS is bad we should be having THAT not THIS." Why can't there be a MIDDLE area (which is just what Miyamoto was talking about) where *Gasp* gamers of old and gamers of new can enjoy the same games?
And what's the answer to this? Wii Fit?
DDR is a game that gamers and non-gamers can enjoy. Heck, even Wii Sports is a game non-gamers and gamers can both enjoy. I find it hard to even qualify Wii Fit as a game.
But, at the same time, it's not purely about qualifying a game as THIS or THAT, it's the general concern that Nintendo is going to abandon a more in-depth gaming experience for a more watered down experience in this effort to appeal to non-gamers. I'm sorry, but one thing Nintendo hasn't been able to do for a while is balance. You get something great from Nintendo but it's almost ALWAYS at the sacrifice of something else. And usually in the case of games making something non-gamer "Accessible" usually means shedding features that would make the game more appealing to a gamer crowd.
Non-gamers and gamers will never like all of the same games, and why should you even expect them to? I'd rather have "gamer games" that leave non-gamers uninterested and "non-gamers" that leave gamers uninterested. THAT'S the type of balance Nintendo needs to go for in the future--not some lukewarm "middle ground" where every game is geared to be playable by everyone, but ultimately leaves both group unsatisfied (Well, not so much non-gamers, most of which don't really know what they want).
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Pittboi, Ian, simply because nothing has been shown doesn't mean things aren't happening. Why don't we all just sit back and relax and see what happens. You can jump all over Nintendo if they lose their focus too much a year from now, but as of right now I see nothing worth getting worked up over. E3 was toned down greatly and NOONE announced anything huge. E3 is no longer an indicator of the future, it is just a small opportunity to showcase a subsection of your games that are going to be available in the near future.
Oh yes, the "wait and see" argument. I was waiting for this one. This is almost exactly what we were all expected to do after Christmas when nothing new was announced. Wait for the GDC. Then nothing new came at the GDC. Wait for E3. Then nothing comes at E3 and you expect us to wait another YEAR before we have the right to complain and express concern? Next thing you know it'll be just like the 'Cube where we'll be told to "wait and see" right up to the next console is announced, where the argument will be changed to "Geez! Wait for Wii2! GAWD!!!1 Everything will be different then!"
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 17, 2007, 10:03:40 AM
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Oh yes, the "wait and see" argument. I was waiting for this one. This is almost exactly what we were all expected to do after Christmas when nothing new was announced. Wait for the GDC. Then nothing new came at the GDC. Wait for E3. Then nothing comes at E3 and you expect us to wait another YEAR before we have the right to complain and express concern? Next thing you know it'll be just like the 'Cube where we'll be told to "wait and see" right up to the next console is announced, where the argument will be changed to "Geez! Wait for Wii2! GAWD!!!1 Everything will be different then!"
No offense but I enjoyed the Cube quite a bit. Look I can understand that you are frustrated, but you need to have patience. You are conjuring up arguments and you don't even know what's coming. I really don't know what you want people to say to you.
This just in:
THE WORLD IS DOOMED, NINTENDO IS GOING TO SUCK FOREVER, ALL OF PITTBOI'S FEARS ARE CONFIRMED WII = FAIL. NON-GAMERS ARE THE FUTURE AND THE COMPANY THAT ONCE LOVED YOU NOW HATES YOU.
Seriously, you need to have patience, speculate all you like, but don't act like it is fact that Nintendo is abandoning you, because you have no idea.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 10:04:39 AM
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Originally posted by: BigJimQuote
Ian a better way of putting your "argument" would be "I'm just not happy with Nintendo on a personal level. I don't enjoy their games anymore".
Everybody's comments here are opinion. There's no reason why people that disagree with yours should qualify it with such qualifiers as "me personally, IMO" etc.
Response: There's a difference between facts and opinions. As it stands to say Nintendo is really just pushing away it's core gamer audience and we will be left out in the cold is an OPINION. Where AS OF NOW Nintendo has done nothing to validate this argument. The FACTS which GP, myself and others list are the current line up of games that we know are coming and are meant for gamers. No one knows what 2008 will hold for Wii outside of Wii Fit and Mario Kart but between Shigeru Miyamoto stating that he still enjoys making gamer games (not non-games) and Nintendo's philosophy that games don't have to be divided between non-games and gamer games (see: they can be games enjoyed by ALL such as LoZ:PH) it is safe to assume Nintendo isn't forgetting it's roots.
Nintendo hasn't come out and showcased 60 non-game titles and then just showed Mario Kart. Right now 2008 is tied for 2 in the US, we have Wii Fit and Mario Kart. So as it stands it's split 50-50. One gamer game and one non-game.
So factually speaking, there is NO HARD EVIDENCE that Nintendo is moving away from its core market. Is it expanding? Yes. Is it taking care of it's more seasoned gamers as well at the moment? Yes. So to say EVERYTHING here is based on opinion I would say that is false.Quote
Nintendo isn't changing their audience and has done nothing to show you that they are.
WHERE have you been?
Response: Nintendo is ADDING to their audience. They are BUILDING upon what they have. They are EXPANDING their market. Their audience has a wider range now yes but they didn't shift away from one to the other.Quote
I just don't see the problem.
And I repeat that the technical availability of those types of games doesn't mean they are going to be satisfied. Not every hardcore game is made for every hardcore gamer. Nintendo is not big enough to satisfy every audience in the face of questionable and unknown 3rd party support. Therefore, the issue continues like it or not, just as it existed for half of the GameCube's life.
Response: We'll have to wait and see what happens.Quote
It's your own PERSONAL tastes that are the issue at hand, not the company. The company in the majority of the peoples eyes aren't doing wrong because we enjoy what has come and what is coming our way.
Of course, it's the fault of the people with dissenting opinions. Boy I'm glad that beacon of truth was uncovered.
Again with the desire to qualify what they say so you feel less threatened by counter opinion. You've expressed plenty of your personal taste here and nobody's expecting you qualify it. Expecting it of others is ridiculous.
Response: I don't feel threatened by counter opinion, I just can't stand it when people make claims without ANY factual evidence to back it up. As it stands Nintendo is catering to both markets and with games like LoZ:PH bridging the gap between both and making games that are enjoyed by gamers and non-gamers alike while still having the game consider a game and not non-game. (God I hate all these freaking labels).
So as it stands, Nintendo "The sky is falling all of our old ways our doomed" scenario is OPINION and "Nintendo so far is showing us a good mix of games catering to both audiences" is FACT.
2008 is a blank slate and just because Nintendo didn't show much for 2008 at E3 it doesn't mean they don't the games that will make us all happy in 08 in the pipeline.
Hell so what if MS said "We're showing games that are playable in 2007", they still showed NOTHING for 2008 outside of RE5. Does that mean "Zomg MS isn't going to have games come to 360 anymore ZOMG!!!!". No of course it doesn't, but that's what the Nintendo worriers seem to be thinking when it comes to Nintendo not showing all there cards at the first of THREE gaming conventions in the upcoming months.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 10:06:01 AM
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Originally posted by: Mr. JackQuote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Oh yes, the "wait and see" argument. I was waiting for this one. This is almost exactly what we were all expected to do after Christmas when nothing new was announced. Wait for the GDC. Then nothing new came at the GDC. Wait for E3. Then nothing comes at E3 and you expect us to wait another YEAR before we have the right to complain and express concern? Next thing you know it'll be just like the 'Cube where we'll be told to "wait and see" right up to the next console is announced, where the argument will be changed to "Geez! Wait for Wii2! GAWD!!!1 Everything will be different then!"
No offense but I enjoyed the Cube quite a bit. Look I can understand that you are frustrated, but you need to have patience. You are conjuring up arguments and you don't even know what's coming. I really don't know what you want people to say to you.
This just in:
THE WORLD IS DOOMED, NINTENDO IS GOING TO SUCK FOREVER, ALL OF PITTBOI'S FEARS ARE CONFIRMED WII = FAIL. NON-GAMERS ARE THE FUTURE AND THE COMPANY THAT ONCE LOVED YOU NOW HATES YOU.
Seriously, you need to have patience, speculate all you like, but don't act like it is fact that Nintendo is abandoning you, because you have no idea.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 10:09:50 AM
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Seriously, you need to have patience, speculate all you like, but don't act like it is fact that Nintendo is abandoning you, because you have no idea.
And I haven't done that all. All I have given is my opinion, which for the purposes of THIS thread are focused on Nintendo's E3 presentation and whether or not I was disappointed, which I was and I gave reasons why. Nintendo may very well have a lot of stuff under wraps planned for gamers for the next year. But again, this E3 (and everything leading up this E3 actually) gave NO indication of that. Can you prove, using THIS E3, that fears that Nintendo MAY abandon the core gamer are completely unjustified? Go on.
A lot of this backlash is coming purely because some people don't like to hear ANYTHING bad about Nintendo.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 10:20:38 AM
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Nintendo may very well have a lot of stuff under wraps planned for gamers for the next year. But again, this E3 (and everything leading up this E3 actually) gave NO indication of that. Can you prove, using THIS E3, that fears that Nintendo MAY abandon the core gamer are completely unjustified? Go on.
Did Microsoft prove to it's gamers that they had ANY games to look forward to post 2007?
Go on.
See just because the companies didn't show much at E3 that we DIDN'T already know about doesn't mean that games AREN'T in the works.
Nintendo has only shown 2 games for Wii post 2008 for NA. Mario Kart and Wii Fit. So it's 50-50.
Post by: couchmonkey on July 17, 2007, 10:23:52 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 10:55:16 AM
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Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Seriously, you need to have patience, speculate all you like, but don't act like it is fact that Nintendo is abandoning you, because you have no idea.
And I haven't done that all. All I have given is my opinion, which for the purposes of THIS thread are focused on Nintendo's E3 presentation and whether or not I was disappointed, which I was and I gave reasons why. Nintendo may very well have a lot of stuff under wraps planned for gamers for the next year. But again, this E3 (and everything leading up this E3 actually) gave NO indication of that. Can you prove, using THIS E3, that fears that Nintendo MAY abandon the core gamer are completely unjustified? Go on.
A lot of this backlash is coming purely because some people don't like to hear ANYTHING bad about Nintendo.
Proof: Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Batallion Wars II, Smash Brother Brawl, all out this year. Oh yeah, there is also this little handheld, you may have heard of it, Nintendo DS, that has a similar "Blue ocean" strategy as the Wii.
Post by: Kairon on July 17, 2007, 11:02:00 AM
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Originally posted by: couchmonkey
This just in: Gran Turismo, Final Fantasy XIII and MGS IV prove htat Sony is the only company that cares about the future of gaming!
Yeah, but we already KNEW about those games before the conference, so OBVIOUSLY they don't count!
*reads*
OMG, this thread has really blown up!
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 17, 2007, 11:27:22 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 11:49:20 AM
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Proof: Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Batallion Wars II, Smash Brother Brawl, all out this year. Oh yeah, there is also this little handheld, you may have heard of it, Nintendo DS, that has a similar "Blue ocean" strategy as the Wii.
And obviously you missed the part where I and several other people said we're not concerned with the games we're getting this year that WILL be great and that we knew would be great since last year's E3. We're concerned with what comes next, and why Nintendo insists on keep so quiet about that. And for heaven's sake I wish people would stop trying to "prove" the Wii with the freaking DS.
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I'll give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt as you should to, being a Nintendo fan and all (Just assuming since you are posting on these forums).
I do give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt, if I didn't I wouldn't own a Wii period. But, and I say this for the umpteenth time, the purpose of this thread is THIS E3, and YES I was disappointed by it. Do I feel that Nintendo should have done a little more this E3? Yes, and if you take five minutes to browse the web I'm not the only one. Whole point of this thread.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 17, 2007, 11:57:47 AM
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
I do give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt, if I didn't I wouldn't own a Wii period. But, and I say this for the umpteenth time, the purpose of this thread is THIS E3, and YES I was disappointed by it. Do I feel that Nintendo should have done a little more this E3? Yes, and if you take five minutes to browse the web I'm not the only one. Whole point of this thread.
See the problem is you dragged this thread into new territories. We understand your position on E3, no one is refuting that, I was disappointed by E3 as well. Unfortunately your opinions on E3 really don't correspond directly to the points you brought up earlier in the thread. You made claims that, "Nintendo hasn't shown AT ALL that they're going to be prioritizing gamers after this year, but there's loads of evidence to suggest that the non-gamer market is only going to become even more of a priority." So much of this discussion is geared towards those remarks. Just to clear why we aren't discussing the point of this thread.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 17, 2007, 11:58:08 AM
It isn't about how much but rather what it is. I see more third party games but I see a lot of spinoffs and kids games and ports from last gen and some outright JUNK like most of what Ubisoft has made. Show me the third party games that don't fall into those categories. I don't see very many. I see most third parties using the Wii as a dumping ground. So I'd say it's still at least as bad as the Cube if not worse. From the perspective of GOOD third party support the Wii isn't getting what it should from a sales perspective.
There's been talk about Zelda being altered to make it more appealing to non-gamers. Why does this suggest more focus to non-gamers? Because the opposite isn't happening. When gamers complain about their non-games not having enough depth Nintendo doesn't address that. The non-games are for non-gamers and Nintendo isn't making any effort to make those more appealing to gamers. But the gamer games can get changed around for non-gamers. They talk all the time about making the gamer games more non-gamer friendly They want one group to like everything and don't care if the other group does. How is that NOT favouritism?
Look at how Nintendo launched both the DS and the Wii with lineups that had they been targetted purely towards the old game audience would have been huge disasters. How much do they care about gamers when their launch lineups are so non-gamer focused? Take out Zelda the GAMECUBE game out of the Wii launch and you have Nintendo's weakest launch. Gamers have been told to wait-and-see. In other words the non-gamers are the first priority. They're not equal priority they're FIRST.
And when Nintendo says "wait and see" why should I ever believe that when this company has blantantly lied to me so many times in the past? They said "wait and see" about their Gamecube online plans that never existed and never did. Nintendo has to show me NOW to get me to believe anything. I don't trust a company that has shown in the past to lie to me and give only token efforts to that which they're not interested in (like mature games or third party support which Nintendo never made a real effort to fix because they didn't care).
Even from a business point of view the strength of non-game support is frightening. Remember Nintendo is very profit-driven. They've got this huge group of customers that they are pleased by games that take less effort to make. Why shouldn't I be scared that will get all their attention? In Japan that's what sells and it's also huge here.
I think good enough reason to be worried is that every time Nintendo opens their mouth it's "non-game this" and "non-game that" and that they designed both systems specifically to attract non-gamers. Does anyone doubt that that's not their main focus now? And when has Nintendo ever given a good effort to anything that isn't their main focus?
I'll believe that gamers aren't getting neglected when I see more than just sequels and I don't hear "we wanted to make this more accessible to non-gamers" being mentioned when discussing gamer games. Or maybe if a major presentation from Nintendo happens where non-gaming doesn't dominate the presentation. I'd like to see Miyamoto, not Retro or HAL, work on a game for gamers without talking about non-gamers.
I really just want to trust Nintendo again.
Post by: Mario on July 17, 2007, 12:04:07 PM
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We're concerned with what comes next, and why Nintendo insists on keep so quiet about that.
They would be STUPID to hype any games too far in the distance with this massive load coming. Consumers money is to stay focused on these holiday games until their money is spent. COMMON SENSE!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 12:05:31 PM
So called Hardcore fan points over the years:
Complaint 1: NDS is the sucks, it is going to be a mini game system with tacked on touch controls
Result: False
Complaint 2: Nintendo named Revolution the Wii. OMG what a stupid name Nintendo is DOOMED. No one will take it seriously and it will be used with pee joke, teeheehee. Sales are going to suffer.
Result: False
Complaint 3: Nintendo never markets well and can't get noticed.
Result: False. Or is it?
Complaint 4: How DARE Nintendo focus on games like Wii sports and Wii Fitness and get mainstream publicity, they FAIL E3 just because of that. We want them now to go back to a distant 3rd in attention.
Result: Contradiction
Complaint 5: Nintendo has no chance to take this generation, the PS3 will win.
Result: False for the moment
Complaint 6: Nintendo is full of crap when they say there is a market for disgruntled or non-gamers. What idiots, not paying attention to the needs of us, oh so special, gamers while hardcore only like traditional games so in turn we aren't really hardcore because we are selective in what games we play.
Result: Look at the Wii sales numbers, enough said.
Complaint 7: Blue ocean is ruining traditional games, and NDS is using that strategy. Heck just look at all those mini game collections for almost 6 months after its launch, that MUST be an indication of things to come.
Result: False
Complaint 8: Nintendo is abandoning hardcore gamers.
Result: Three biggest franchises in Nintendo's history are getting launched within the year
Complaint 9: Yeah but but, we don't care about THOSE traditional games we only care about new IPs (which would make it a new series, so how could it be hardcore?), I mean there is no way now that SEQUELS can count as hardcore? Anyway where are all the games for 2008 what I mean, Nintendo ALWAYS reveals alot of their big games years in advance.
Result: Most likely will have their foot stuck in their mouth again.
Complaint 10: The market will be flooded with "casual" games and it will collapse. Nintendo is DOOMED.
Result: Gee, I don't see the market collapsing yet under the humongous, stale weight of shooters and WWII games.
Complaint 11: Wii online is a failure.
Result: MOH will feature 32 player online
Overall Results: The whiney so called "hardcore" Nintendo gamers have been wrong at almost every turn, so it goes without saying that statistically they will be wrong again, yet go on making doomsday predictions never being satisfied.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 12:07:40 PM
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See the problem is you dragged this thread into new territories. We understand your position on E3, no one is refuting that, I was disappointed by E3 as well. Unfortunately your opinions on E3 really don't correspond directly to the points you brought up earlier in the thread. You made claims that, "Nintendo hasn't shown AT ALL that they're going to be prioritizing gamers after this year, but there's loads of evidence to suggest that the non-gamer market is only going to become even more of a priority." So much of this discussion is geared towards those remarks. Just to clear why we aren't discussing the point of this thread.
Read my first post in this thread and then follow it up to now, you'll see WHY I made that comment. And anyway, I don't see how that comment ISN'T relevant to this thread. It is, after all, the REASON WHY I was disappointed by this E3, as well as me commiserating with Ian and responding to Mishiro's claim that the very idea that Nintendo won't prioritize gamers after the year is ridiculous. That's not taking this thread into "new territories". It's on topic discussion.
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My proof:
So called Hardcore fan points over the years:
Complaint 1: NDS is the sucks, it is going to be a mini game system with tacked on touch controls
Result: False
Complaint 2: Nintendo named Revolution the Wii. OMG what a stupid name Nintendo is DOOMED. No one will take it seriously and it will be used with pee joke, teeheehee. Sales are going to suffer.
Result: False
Complaint 3: Nintendo never markets well and can't get noticed.
Result: False. Or is it?
Complaint 4: How DARE Nintendo focus on games like Wii sports and Wii Fitness and get mainstream publicity, they FAIL E3 just because of that. We want them now to go back to a distant 3rd in attention.
Result: Contradiction
Complaint 5: Nintendo has no chance to take this generation, the PS3 will win.
Result: False for the moment
Complaint 6: Nintendo is full of crap when they say there is a market for disgruntled or non-gamers. What idiots, not paying attention to the needs of us, oh so special, gamers while hardcore only like traditional games so in turn we aren't really hardcore because we are selective in what games we play.
Result: Look at the Wii sales numbers, enough said.
Complaint 7: Blue ocean is ruining traditional games, and NDS is using that strategy. Heck just look at all those mini game collections for almost 6 months after its launch, that MUST be an indication of things to come.
Result: False
Complaint 8: Nintendo is abandoning hardcore gamers.
Result: Three biggest franchises in Nintendo's history are getting launched within the year
Complaint 9: Yeah but but, we don't care about THOSE traditional games we only care about new IPs (which would make it a new series, so how could it be hardcore?), I mean there is no way now that SEQUELS can count as hardcore? Anyway where are all the games for 2008 what I mean, Nintendo ALWAYS reveals alot of their big games years in advance.
Result: Most likely will have their foot stuck in their mouth again.
Complaint 10: The market will be flooded with "casual" games and it will collapse. Nintendo is DOOMED.
Result: Gee, I don't see the market collapsing yet under the humongous, stale weight of shooters and WWII games.
Overall Results: The whiney so called "hardcore" Nintendo gamers have been wrong at almost every turn, so it goes without saying that statistically they will be wrong again, yet go on making doomsday predictions never being satisfied.
Golden, none of that really had a point and you know it. Half of it was redundant and all of it was slanted. You couldn't even give definitive results on several of those "complaints" you listed, so I really don't see what you tried to accomplish with that. Hell, if I wanted, I could come up with a list of the things "whiney" gamers have been right about--you know, things like the overall uselessness of channels, Nintendo's crappy online, lack of hard-drive support, very few games making innovative use of the wii-remote, etc. But all it would do is lead to an off-topic flame war and be just as much of a red herring as that post of your s was. Let's keep this on topic. And for heaven's sake, on topic doesn't include the DS. We're talking about the WII here
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 12:13:09 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
It isn't about how much but rather what it is. I see more third party games but I see a lot of spinoffs and kids games and ports from last gen and some outright JUNK like most of what Ubisoft has made. Show me the third party games that don't fall into those categories. I don't see very many. I see most third parties using the Wii as a dumping ground. So I'd say it's still at least as bad as the Cube if not worse. From the perspective of GOOD third party support the Wii isn't getting what it should from a sales perspective.
Um, so 3rd party, is terrible, yet it isn't good from a sale perspective? What the heck are you talking about? I do like how you eliminate a game like Zack and Wiki with your "kid" game thing, even though from what I heard it is a super hardcore game and is a point and click adventure which is about as hardcore as you get. See what I mean about your ridiculous backpedaling on what counts as "good"? We also have two light gun games, a new game from Ubisoft from the developers of ExciteBike 64, Wiiplay, Godzilla, and I am sure there are other exclusives coming out. In regards to the "ports" EA released a brilliant port of Godfather, and Scarface is supposed to be stellar as well with Wii controls. I know it would be easier for you to ignore ports, but the Wii has provided a fresh feel to "ports" so in turn they aren't your average port, and in turn is vastly superior to GCs ports.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 17, 2007, 12:16:48 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 12:17:22 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 12:26:55 PM
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Of course you want to avoid DS, because that impales any argument you may have against Wii's strategy. Whether you want to admit it or not, Nintendo's blue ocean strategy is also on NDS, so it is a real case study in terms of what to expect.
The DS doesn't impale ANY argument I have against the Wii's strategy. First of all the Wii's "strategy" really isn't the discussion here. Secondly, the DS has several factors working for it that the Wii never will--you know, such as being an inexpensive PORTABLE gaming machine that's an impulse buy for parents wanting something to shut their kids up on the road, as well as being the successor to the MASSIVELY popular Gameboy series of handhelds, and touting unrivaled 3rd party support. Nintendo's strategy with the two platforms may be similar. But you'll NEVER be able to completely argue one by using the other for the simple fact that one is a portable and the other is a home console...not even counting Nintendo's history with both platforms.
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Like I told you before Pittbboi, if you want to be fully satisfied why don't you get a PS3 it is right up your alley when it comes to your complaints.
Because the PS3 f-ing blows. Simple as that. If anything I'd get a 360
. And that still wouldn't stop me from wanting my Wii to be the best that it could be, or expressing my concern.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 12:30:06 PM
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Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Of course you want to avoid DS, because that impales any argument you may have against Wii's strategy. Whether you want to admit it or not, Nintendo's blue ocean strategy is also on NDS, so it is a real case study in terms of what to expect.
The DS doesn't impale ANY argument I have against the Wii's strategy. First of all the Wii's "strategy" really isn't the discussion here. Secondly, the DS has several factors working for it that the Wii never will--you know, such as being an inexpensive PORTABLE gaming machine that's an impulse buy for parents wanting something to shut their kids up on the road, as well as being the successor to the MASSIVELY popular Gameboy series of handhelds, and touting unrivaled 3rd party support. Nintendo's strategy with the two platforms may be similar. But you'll NEVER be able to completely argue one by using the other for the simple fact that one is a portable and the other is a home console...not even counting Nintendo's history with both platforms.Quote
Like I told you before Pittbboi, if you want to be fully satisfied why don't you get a PS3 it is right up your alley when it comes to your complaints.
Because the PS3 f-ing blows. Simple as that. If anything I'd get a 360
Why did you have to bring up Xbox 360? I can't disagree with you!
Post by: Ian Sane on July 17, 2007, 12:31:38 PM
No one is saying they hate sequels, just the nothing but sequels will get boring and for some probably already is.
"Gee, I don't see the market collapsing yet under the humongous, stale weight of shooters and WWII games."
Again the assumption that hardcore gamers like the same sh!t again and again. I hate repetitive stale crap. Both Nintendo and their diehard supporters think that a hardcore gamer just likes stale sequels. We don't. That's why I'm so disappointed in what Nintendo is now offering. They did that "who are you?" BS with the Cube and for a few years went crazy with dull stale sequels. Finally they decide to take some risks again and make new stuff and it's all targetted at a new audience. The whole thing is so insane. Nintendo notices that no one takes risks anymore and the same old stuff isn't selling with gamers. So what do they do? Continue down the same path while making new stuff for a new audience. Why don't they try to win over the gamers that are getting bored with sequels? Why are they giving us the very thing that they themselves complained was getting stale? Can innovation only be done in shallow non-games?
"Hey sequels are boring gamers. Let's target non-gamers and continue to give gamers sequels." Huh? I don't see why "all games should be made for everyone" is the appropriate response to "games are getting stale". Shouldn't they be innovating overall in both non-games AND games? Hell how are non-gamers and gaming getting stale even related at ALL? This is something I've questioned since day one. Yeah Nintendo is making big money but is this the solution to the problem or are they just making money from a new market while the old market still has the problem? If the non-gamers lost interest tomorrow would the gamers care? I don't think so because from a gamer perspective I don't see a response to the problem. Nintendo found a problem and are now avoiding it by targeting a different group. It's like if the NHL's response to people losing interest in hockey was to become a handball league.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 17, 2007, 12:35:55 PM
It's most inconvenient that the generation Nintendo decides to neglect hardcore gamers is when the competition is sh!tty as hell. Last gen would have been much better timing.
Post by: Mario on July 17, 2007, 12:55:33 PM
Post by: Deguello on July 17, 2007, 12:57:24 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 17, 2007, 01:09:06 PM
Maybe I've drunk too much kool-aid over the years, or maybe it's just some eery coincidence, but in my gaming tastes, my gaming philosophy, and my gaming desires, I've always been Nintendo first, gamer second.
Ian, I don't trust Nintendo because they're catering to some predefined needs that I've outlined. I trust Nintendo because they're a company that I feel contribute to my internal dialogue of what games are and where they can go. I trust Nintendo not because they cater to my needs, but instead because I can respect the fact that they care enough about what they're doing to do it the way they believe to be best.
When have I felt Nintendo betrayed me? Anytime they betrayed that honest integrity, which, of course, companies are apt to do.
1. LIES! (120% Zelda? FEH!!)
2. DAMNED LIES! (Iwata boasting of SSBB at launch when they KNEW the game wasn't even in development)
3. AND STATISTICS!!!
... actually, scratch that last one. I like their statistics. Wii market expansion FTW! Show me more juicy juicy bar graphs!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 17, 2007, 01:25:54 PM
Post by: UERD on July 17, 2007, 01:36:24 PM
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Again the assumption that hardcore gamers like the same sh!t again and again. I hate repetitive stale crap. Both Nintendo and their diehard supporters think that a hardcore gamer just likes stale sequels.
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I don't think so because from a gamer perspective I don't see a response to the problem. Nintendo found a problem and are now avoiding it by targeting a different group. It's like if the NHL's response to people losing interest in hockey was to become a handball league.
Part of the issue is that the terms 'hardcore' gaming and 'hardcore' gamers have become so bastardized that they really aren't good for the industry anymore. What's a stereotypically hardcore game? Something set during WWII? Science-fiction based FPSes? Real-time strategy games? Guess which consoles became inextricably associated with those types of games? First the XBox, and now PS3 is desperately following suit. Most 'hardcore gamers' don't think of games like Zelda necessarily as hardcore (although in the best situations they have a whole lot of respect for those games). They think of teenage boys, professional gamers, people playing games like Resistance, Halo 2...maybe if you look at PCs you get Counterstrike and HL2. What games are played for money on a professional level? XBox-type games! What games were played at WCG last year? Counterstrike, Need for Speed, Starcraft, Quake 4. These are all games that almost all people would associate more closely with the XBox than with the GameCube or the Wii. Now you have 'hardcore' gamers and self-proclaimed/wannabe 'hardcore' gamers who have bought into the general mindset that those games represent. And there are lots of true/faux 'hardcore' gamers- just look at the sales numbers of the games I mentioned before.
Now, where is all the innovation going towards when it comes to the 'hardcore game'? Better technology. Better graphics. Look at the XBox and PS3's focus on hardware, as well as Microsoft's ballyhooed new DirectX10. Why did Sony and Microsoft spend hundreds of dollars per machine on the latest hardware? Not for 'innovative experiences' or things like better AI or better environments, but because they wanted more polygons. Look at all the 'hardcore' games released recently or in the pipeline: Halo 3, Killzone 2, Gears of War, UT3...do any of those games really innovate even within their genres? Is Halo 3 bringing anything really new to the FPS genre that wasn't present in Halo 2? Do any of these games really do anything revolutionary besides produce new graphics? To a 'hardcore gamer', it's these sort of things that comprise innovation.
Yes, Nintendo does sequels. They also do gamer's innovation, on a good day. But their sort of innovation isn't the 'innovation' that hardcore gamers take kindly to.
What about Smash Bros? Is that a 'gamer's game'? It's certainly not a non-game. Although it might be slightly more intuitive than a conventional fighting game, it's definitely not something Grandma's going to pick up one day and immediately become engrossed. And yet, when it first came out, a lot of people were not willing to consider it a 'real' fighting game. They called it things like a 'fighting platformer' or other nonsense, but because there weren't 10-button combos and the only way to die was equivalent to a 'ring out' it wasn't a real fighting game. But both games in the Smash Bros series take as much skill to play well (they have as much depth) as any 'respectable' fighter. Still, Smash Bros versus...say, Halo 2 in terms of generally perceived 'hardcoreness'?
Nintendo's dilemma is as such. The 'hardcore' gaming market is already 'lost' to them. Competing on the basis of primarily hardware performance is a Faustian proposition, as MS and Sony have shown. When they do release games that innovate within their genres, people might accept them as good on their own merits, but not 'hardcore' enough to be compared directly to the true 'hardcore' pantheon. Yeah, there's a distinct Mario-Zelda-Metroid-Smash-et al 'Nintendo hardcore', but it's not exactly growing any bigger. Nintendo's not going to attract all those self-proclaimed 'hardcore' and 'hardcore' wannabes by working with them on their own terms. Where else are they going to get new customers?
Post by: Kairon on July 17, 2007, 01:50:36 PM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Kairon is the first hardcore/casual/non/buy anything gamer!
Ah, but not the last!
...hmm... I've just thought of an all-encompassing label that neatly ridicules and encapsulates this! You can call me... an ALL-Gamer! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
Post by: UERD on July 17, 2007, 01:59:57 PM
* I am 100% in favor of Nintendo making 'real' games for the Wii and innovating. I just think it's kind of disingenuous to say that Nintendo is coldheartedly and wantonly abandoning its loyal 'hardcore' market like a mean, heartless man drop-kicking an adorable puppy out the door into a raging blizzard.
In the long term, they cannot survive by appeasing only the non-gamer market, and they know that. They can't abandon their roots. But they really couldn't have laid the foundation for the long term without looking for 'new customers' in the short term beyond the traditional gamer.
* Nintendo is not suddenly abandoning traditional game development in order to pursue non-gaming projects. Almost all of the E3 or 'non-game' announcements we've seen recently have been the fruition of plans that have openly existed since before the Wii was released- like Wii Fitness, or the sequel to Brain Age, or the Zapper, or whatever. We still haven't heard anything about Wii Music yet. Now, if it took this long to crystallize plans that have probably existed since the first versions of the Wii hardware were created (as proof-of-concept projects demonstrating the viability of the Wii concept, they would have taken first priority), it will probably be a while before their plans for 'true, innovative games' (which probably got second priority) are fully revealed.
* While it's definitely true that some 3rd parties are intentionally shafting the Wii (erhm....SQUARE ENIX...erhm), it bears note that these companies have not had that much time to retool their development teams to work on serious games for the console. I know people are cynical, but I think EA is giving it a decent shot. I mean, they're bringing their biggest franchises with controls that took at least a bit of thought, and they haven't been known for giant, immersive, cinematic epics so we can forgive them for not having those sort of games on Wii.
Post by: BigJim on July 17, 2007, 02:04:42 PM
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As it stands to say Nintendo is really just pushing away it's core gamer audience and we will be left out in the cold is an OPINION. Where AS OF NOW Nintendo has done nothing to validate this argument. The FACTS which GP, myself and others list are the current line up of games that we know are coming and are meant for gamers. No one knows what 2008 will hold for Wii outside of Wii Fit and Mario Kart but between Shigeru Miyamoto stating that he still enjoys making gamer games (not non-games) and Nintendo's philosophy that games don't have to be divided between non-games and gamer games (see: they can be games enjoyed by ALL such as LoZ:PH) it is safe to assume Nintendo isn't forgetting it's roots.
Nintendo hasn't come out and showcased 60 non-game titles and then just showed Mario Kart. Right now 2008 is tied for 2 in the US, we have Wii Fit and Mario Kart. So as it stands it's split 50-50. One gamer game and one non-game.
So factually speaking, there is NO HARD EVIDENCE that Nintendo is moving away from its core market. Is it expanding? Yes. Is it taking care of it's more seasoned gamers as well at the moment? Yes. So to say EVERYTHING here is based on opinion I would say that is false.
What you are doing is offering evidence to support your OPINION. Do not confuse evidence, fact, and opinion because there is also counter-evidence and counter opinion that has already been brought up.
I will spell it out again. Nintendo is not big enough to satisfy all audiences. That is evidenced by those vocally unsatisfied in just about every Nintendo forum, and by others here that even made note that Nintendo couldn't satisfy ONE audience as far back as the N64 days. What there is no evidence of is proof that they NOW have the ample resources to do it all. Their history shows otherwise.
I've not said anything about abandonment, pushing away, being left out in the cold. I'm not going to go over everybody else's posts to see if they did or not, though.
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Nintendo is ADDING to their audience. They are BUILDING upon what they have. They are EXPANDING their market. Their audience has a wider range now yes but they didn't shift away from one to the other.
Their market expansion IS changing their audience. Their demographic is changing. Therefore their audience is changing. They're not doing one without the other.
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I don't feel threatened by counter opinion, I just can't stand it when people make claims without ANY factual evidence to back it up. As it stands Nintendo is catering to both markets and with games like LoZ:PH bridging the gap between both and making games that are enjoyed by gamers and non-gamers alike while still having the game consider a game and not non-game. (God I hate all these freaking labels).
Yes, Nintendo is catering to both. But it is a perfectly valid opinion to say that they may not be catering to one or the other, or BOTH, well enough. You don't have to like or agree with those possible opinions, and coming up with evidence to support your own opinion won't make it fact. For as long as people are allowed to have opinions, then either audience (or both) are allowed to have an unsatisfied opinion, whether that meshes with yours or not. Nobody was elected to be the righteous arbiter of collective thought.
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So as it stands, Nintendo "The sky is falling all of our old ways our doomed" scenario is OPINION and "Nintendo so far is showing us a good mix of games catering to both audiences" is FACT.
"a good mix of both" IS an opinion, my friend. See previous response.
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2008 is a blank slate and just because Nintendo didn't show much for 2008 at E3 it doesn't mean they don't the games that will make us all happy in 08 in the pipeline.
It is absolutely a blank slate, but history (and even the present drought) is not in Nintendo's favor, and history is all anybody has to go on... aside from theory, hopes, and wishes. Many are (at least I am) done with promises and hope, as Nintendo broke promises and dragged people along in the past. So the proof is in the pudding, and for as long as Nintendo touts non-games and gives hardcore games passing mentions, they'll simply add fuel to the fire themselves too.
Now as for Galaxy, MP3, BWii, and Brawl that keeps getting brought up by people here, they are missing the point here again.
All of these games were supposedly going to be spread out over the course of the year. Even in the best case scenario, 4 or 5 games across 12 months would mean the Wii basically gets seasonal use. But since we don't live in a world where every hardcore game is made for every hardcore gamer, including that they were bumped and concentrated into 3 months out of the year making the other 9 months fairly stark, it is little consolation or proof that they are satisfactorily supplying an audience with what they want.
The existance of those specific titles is not the point. Quality and volume is the point. Until they and 3rd parties show up with high caliber products in regular quality and quantity, NOT ports, NOT last-gen wares, NOT licensed crap, and NOT poorly made sequels, then the hardcore lineup is going to be considered spotty by some.
Someone mentioned this was a problem as far back as N64, which is a pretty astute observation and they have a good point. If Nintendo has solved a 15 year problem, I'd love to see it. But I will indeed need to see it first to believe it.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on July 17, 2007, 02:07:12 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
There's been talk about Zelda being altered to make it more appealing to non-gamers. Why does this suggest more focus to non-gamers? Because the opposite isn't happening. When gamers complain about their non-games not having enough depth Nintendo doesn't address that. The non-games are for non-gamers and Nintendo isn't making any effort to make those more appealing to gamers. But the gamer games can get changed around for non-gamers. They talk all the time about making the gamer games more non-gamer friendly They want one group to like everything and don't care if the other group does. How is that NOT favouritism?
What are you complaining about Ian, you're the biggest non-gamer on this forum. Well actually, a 'non-gamer' still plays video games. So I guess you're a non-non-gamer. You've been at this for years, don't you get tired of whinging about something you have no interest in?
Post by: LuigiHann on July 17, 2007, 02:11:57 PM
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Because the opposite isn't happening. When gamers complain about their non-games not having enough depth Nintendo doesn't address that. The non-games are for non-gamers and Nintendo isn't making any effort to make those more appealing to gamers.
I don't feel that's the case. Third parties aren't really trying to make their non-games appeal to gamers as much, but things like Brain Age and WarioWare: Smooth Moves are filled with the same little touches and replayability that has made Nintendo great. Nintendo is trying to blur the line between gamers and non-gamers, and I do believe that they want it going both ways.
Post by: UERD on July 17, 2007, 03:11:08 PM
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Their market expansion IS changing their audience. Their demographic is changing. Therefore their audience is changing. They're not doing one without the other.
Their audience makeup is changing because they're not capable of luring the XBox crowd away with little more than an innovative controller and Nintendo first parties. To improve Wii sales over their abysmal last-gen performance, they have to look beyond their core Nintendo hardcore audience. They can either go for the 'other gamers' or the 'nongamers'. Guess which one they chose.
This isn't a matter of 'there are 100 million people in the US wanting to play Nintendo games the same way they've been played since N64, but who haven't gotten around to buying a Nintendo unit yet'. This is a matter of 'the core audience of people willing to play games the old way is not going to be growing much more in the future, and Nintendo can't really expand its market base within that core audience'.
I think people have the impression that the fun casual games and the wide audience is a nice, but ultimately non-essential accessory to a console whose 'core assets' should be its conventional games. I wish it could be that way, but it really can't. If Wii had been an XBox 360/PS3-esque machine with oodles of power, what would have changed? The Cube was plenty powerful during its era, and it still sold pretty badly. What would have changed Nintendo's fortunes this time around? Even more power? Even better core games? It's not like GameCube lacked 'good games' and that's why people didn't buy it. Sony and Microsoft did a really good job implicitly branding Nintendo as 'age-challenged-people-friendly' (sorry, banned word), and it would have been a waste of time to fight that label. Would a console filled with Manhunt 2-esque games be the end-all of hardcore gaming? Probably not.
Sega lagged the market and eventually fell out of the console business altogether. Nintendo lagged the market and is roaring back after more than a decade of being the underdog. How many times has that happened in the history of business?
I know the casual games are bleh, and that there's a dearth of information, but they are at the very least a necessary evil, building the install base that Nintendo needs if it wants to do anything grand with the console market at all in the future.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 03:43:17 PM
Nintendo CLERLY doesn't have games coming out for both the non-gamer and gamer, clearly not.
You guys are right! Man I am so foolish I see the light now!
Nintendo is doing a horrible job. They need new IPs! But new IPs that don't have anything to do with including a new audience of gamers. Cause as we all know only we can enjoy games and they BETTER be made like the games of the past. Oh and their better be no sequels. No sir! Why would I want sequels to games? Especially when they may end up being some of the greatest games ever made! That'd be stupid. Nintendo sucks cause it makes sequels. What idiots!
Oh and of course Nintendo is abandoning us and the world is ending. God how could I not see this before!
BigJim you have no freaking clue what the hell factual statements are vs sheer opinion based statements. In 2008 even if Nintendo was to have say 15 "non-games" and 15 "gamer games" (of equal quality) and I said "Well they catered to both audiences evenly" would you say that is fact? Or would you say "Well that's your OPINION see even though it is technically even I mean it's still just an opinion".
Edit: And thats that for me on this discussion. I could say 2+2=4 and get "but thats your opinion" fling back in my face. Just isn't worth the time to type out anymore to people who don't understand the difference between factually based statements and sheer speculative opinion.
Post by: Urkel on July 17, 2007, 07:46:08 PM
But I'm a glutton for punishment, so let's keep this trainwreck going...
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Originally posted by: BigJim I will spell it out again. Nintendo is not big enough to satisfy all audiences. That is evidenced by those vocally unsatisfied in just about every Nintendo forum, and by others here that even made note that Nintendo couldn't satisfy ONE audience as far back as the N64 days.
Those "vocally unsatisfied" are more or less the same people that were "vocally unsatisfied" during the first year or so of the DS' existence. They were saying the exact same things about the DS that are being said about the Wii now. i.e. "NON-GAMES... BAAAAD.... GRAAAAAGHHH" and "DS will never get any real third party support" etc. etc.
Nowadays it's virtually impossible to find someone who is "vocally unsatisfied" about the DS, outside of some PSP forum.
The Wii is following the same formula as the DS; that being a system with relatively low horsepower and an innovative input.
The DS didn't have jack sh!t for third party support for nearly a year, and it really started to take a beating once the PSP launched. So how did they turn this around? Of course, the kneejerk reaction is "It's teh next gameboy!!! Of course it's gonna sell!!!", but that doesn't explain why the DS had such a hard time so soon after launch. No, the real reason had to do with a mix of big name Nintendo "gamer" franchises (Mario Kart, New Super Mario Bros.) and new "non-gamer" games (Nintendogs, Brain Age).
Whether or not you agree that that's why the DS started to sell well is irrelevent. What matters is that it DID start to sell, and that's when the "real" 3rd party support started to materialize.
And the Wii is selling well. Very, very well. "Fastest selling console of all time" kind of well. And THAT is why I don't worry about 3rd party support. Because 3rd parties always give the most support (both quantitatively and qualitatively speaking) to the best selling system, without fail, unless my videogames history is a bit fuzzy.
Post by: BigJim on July 17, 2007, 08:33:38 PM
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Originally posted by: UERDQuote
Their market expansion IS changing their audience. Their demographic is changing. Therefore their audience is changing. They're not doing one without the other.
Their audience makeup is changing because they're not capable of luring the XBox crowd away with little more than an innovative controller and Nintendo first parties. To improve Wii sales over their abysmal last-gen performance, they have to look beyond their core Nintendo hardcore audience. They can either go for the 'other gamers' or the 'nongamers'. Guess which one they chose.
This isn't a matter of 'there are 100 million people in the US wanting to play Nintendo games the same way they've been played since N64, but who haven't gotten around to buying a Nintendo unit yet'. This is a matter of 'the core audience of people willing to play games the old way is not going to be growing much more in the future, and Nintendo can't really expand its market base within that core audience'.
I think people have the impression that the fun casual games and the wide audience is a nice, but ultimately non-essential accessory to a console whose 'core assets' should be its conventional games. I wish it could be that way, but it really can't. If Wii had been an XBox 360/PS3-esque machine with oodles of power, what would have changed? The Cube was plenty powerful during its era, and it still sold pretty badly. What would have changed Nintendo's fortunes this time around? Even more power? Even better core games? It's not like GameCube lacked 'good games' and that's why people didn't buy it. Sony and Microsoft did a really good job implicitly branding Nintendo as 'age-challenged-people-friendly' (sorry, banned word), and it would have been a waste of time to fight that label. Would a console filled with Manhunt 2-esque games be the end-all of hardcore gaming? Probably not.
Sega lagged the market and eventually fell out of the console business altogether. Nintendo lagged the market and is roaring back after more than a decade of being the underdog. How many times has that happened in the history of business?
I know the casual games are bleh, and that there's a dearth of information, but they are at the very least a necessary evil, building the install base that Nintendo needs if it wants to do anything grand with the console market at all in the future.
I agree with pretty much everything here. They can expand the market from Hell to breakfast for all I care. Nobody really disagrees with what they need to to do survive.
The bone of contention lies where others ignore or dismiss the fact that the change is happening, that everything is as perpetually awesome as ever, everyone should be satisfied with everything, and anybody that isn't satisfied because they don't get enough of what they want doesn't have a valid opinion. That's the bickering in a nutshell.
Post by: IceCold on July 17, 2007, 08:34:19 PM
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Originally posted by: MarioQuote
We're concerned with what comes next, and why Nintendo insists on keep so quiet about that.
They would be STUPID to hype any games too far in the distance with this massive load coming. Consumers money is to stay focused on these holiday games until their money is spent. COMMON SENSE!
EDIT: BigJim.. ignoring all the "non-games" the Wii has got and looking at the Wii from a pure gamer's perspective.. can't you agree that the Wii is doing better than the GameCube already?
Post by: BigJim on July 17, 2007, 08:45:05 PM
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@ BIgJim yeah it's my opinion that only two games were showcased for E3 from Nintendo that will be on in 2008. Certainly not a fact or anything. Certainly not.
I must've missed the part where I denied they showed two 2008 games. Taking the fact/opinion issue and blending it with something I didn't dispute, and somehow I am wrong. Awesome!
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Nintendo CLERLY doesn't have games coming out for both the non-gamer and gamer, clearly not.
Sadly, I have to repeat again: "The existance of those specific titles is not the point. Quality and volume is the point. Until they and 3rd parties show up with high caliber products in regular quality and quantity, NOT ports, NOT last-gen wares, NOT licensed crap, and NOT poorly made sequels, then the hardcore lineup is going to be considered spotty by some."
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Oh and of course Nintendo is abandoning us and the world is ending. God how could I not see this before!
There's YOUR word again.
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BigJim you have no freaking clue what the hell factual statements are vs sheer opinion based statements. In 2008 even if Nintendo was to have say 15 "non-games" and 15 "gamer games" (of equal quality) and I said "Well they catered to both audiences evenly" would you say that is fact? Or would you say "Well that's your OPINION see even though it is technically even I mean it's still just an opinion".
Thanks for the assessment. But yes I do know what factual statements are. What do you mean by "equal quality"? Gamer gamers that are of equal quality to non-games? They can't be compared. But if you mean in general high-quality gamer titles then yes the ratios are even. But ratio doesn't matter. They can make 500 non-games a year for all anybody really cares. The issue (as I just re-quoted) is sufficient quantity and quality, for which they lack until they and 3rd parties, etc. etc. (see the re-quote).
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 09:00:11 PM
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Sadly, I have to repeat again: "The existance of those specific titles is not the point. Quality and volume is the point. Until they and 3rd parties show up with high caliber products in regular quality and quantity, NOT ports, NOT last-gen wares, NOT licensed crap, and NOT poorly made sequels, then the hardcore lineup is going to be considered spotty by some."
::sighs:: So what do you want Nintendo to release games in a line up like MP3, SMG and SSBB EVERY year? That's a tall order.
I guess that is what everyone needs to sleep more soundly at night.
and as for third parties, have patience, remember Wii got a late start with third party support but it's finally starting to come (DQS looks promising for example).
Remember NO ONE EXPECTED THE WII TO TAKE OFF LIKE THIS. Did Sony Playstation or heck even Playstation 2 have an immensely hardcore high quality line up of games from third parties from the get go? No.
You people just demand the world, you want EVERYTHING to be shown to you NOW. If you don't see high quality titles out the wazzo the Wii is a failure and gamers are being abandoned. I'm sorry Nintendo and third parties didn't reveal all their plans for 2008 for you yet.
Maybe you should look into an Xbox 360 or PS3 I hear those systems only have high quality games and nothing else. No crap what so ever. Nope only 100% pure high quality games.
Edit: and you know what? here's an idea, let's see what happens when TGS passes. THEN let's pass some judgement about Nintendo not showing us or delivering on their promise shall we?
Post by: BigJim on July 17, 2007, 09:09:27 PM
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Oh, God! This thread is getting more and more hilarious. It'll make quality Funhouse material a year from now.
LOL. I'm starting to agree.
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Those "vocally unsatisfied" are more or less the same people that were "vocally unsatisfied" during the first year or so of the DS' existence.
Possibly, but not me as far as I can remember. I'm not big on portables so I didn't really have a strong opinion either way.
I can't speak for all of them, but I do think that many, at the heart of it, don't really care about the non-game stuff in and of itself. Nintendo's history has demonstrated droughts and therefore a split focus has the potential to threaten equal or more of them. I'm not a regular DS game buyer so I can't really say much about the lineup, I'm happy with the handful of games I did buy (even the non-games! shock! horror!
) but the DS is a different beast and one doesn't really lend proof to the other. That is the hope, though. But we'll see.Quote
And the Wii is selling well. Very, very well. "Fastest selling console of all time" kind of well. And THAT is why I don't worry about 3rd party support. Because 3rd parties always give the most support (both quantitatively and qualitatively speaking) to the best selling system, without fail, unless my videogames history is a bit fuzzy.
True enough. The only asterisk there is that all consoles until now were gamer focused, and who knows exactly how Wii's success will skew support this time. It's certainly the hope that the 3rd parties will show up with the big guns, and lots of them, and that this "we were caught off guard so we gotta throw some crap together ASAP" really is a phase and not the norm.
Sorry, this post didn't turn out crazy at all... damn real discussion! ::throws fist::
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EDIT: BigJim.. ignoring all the "non-games" the Wii has got and looking at the Wii from a pure gamer's perspective.. can't you agree that the Wii is doing better than the GameCube already?
I'd say that they've had a better start than GameCube, yep. Nintendo's having an early blowout with their old reliables (I say with affection). So with the wad being shot early, it'll be interesting to see what actually happens next.
Post by: Kairon on July 17, 2007, 09:26:25 PM
Eternal Darkness, Wave Race, James Bond, Sonic Adventure 2, Smash, Pikmin, Extreme G, Rogue Squadron, Luigi's Mansion and a couple more games maybe...
versus
Zelda, Excite Truck, Super Paper Mario, RE4: Wii, Godfather, Scarface, Elebits, Sonic SOTR, Trauma Center, and definitely a slew of other games, from FPS' to sports titles to Warioware.
I certainly understand that the future isn't as set in stone as some wish it to be, but the past speaks for itself... so far we haven't seen any shift away from hardcore game titles, just an increase in the alternatives being offered.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 09:32:51 PM
I agree 100%
(1st post from my wii lol)
Post by: Requiem on July 17, 2007, 09:49:07 PM
Disappointed that no new killer IP (besides WiiFit) was announced? I can see that.
Disappointed in third party support? I don't see why...
Disappointed in this year's line-up? ARE YOU RETARDED?!
Can I just list some games for you?
Zack and Wiki. Endless Ocean. BWii. EA sports package. MP3. Mario Strikers. Mario Galaxy. Super Smash Bros. Soul Calibur Legends. Ghost Squad. Tony Hawk. Dragon Blade. Naruto. Guilty Gear. GodZilla. Need For Speed. Indy 500 Legends....and there's many more.
Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?
THEN SHUT THE HELL UP!
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 09:55:23 PM
Post by: BigJim on July 17, 2007, 09:57:48 PM
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::sighs:: So what do you want Nintendo to release games in a line up like MP3, SMG and SSBB EVERY year? That's a tall order.
Yeah, it definitely is. That's why 3rd parties are all the more critical. How they choose to stand up to the order remains to be seen. Rarely have they demonstrated ample dedication to Nintendo's console. I know it's easy to say to have patience, but some of us have been sitting on our hands off and on for years waiting for such support. We're at a "show me" point.
Gamers were very well supported with PS2 last gen and with the Xbox 360 so far this gen. The Wii is capable of meeting that tall order. All parties involved just have to want it. It's a complete mystery after 2007 what will happen. All we have is history to guide us.
We don't really have a choice but to be patient, though.
So on it goes.Quote
You people just demand the world, you want EVERYTHING to be shown to you NOW. If you don't see high quality titles out the wazzo the Wii is a failure and gamers are being abandoned.
Customers and potential customers are allowed to be demanding. And I'll just ignore the "abandoned" word from now on. LOL. I've not used that in my posts here so I don't know why it's resurrected so much.
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Maybe you should look into an Xbox 360 or PS3 I hear those systems only have high quality games and nothing else. No crap what so ever. Nope only 100% pure high quality games.
::looks over at a newly unpackaged PS3::
Quote
Edit: and you know what? here's an idea, let's see what happens when TGS passes. THEN let's pass some judgement about Nintendo not showing us or delivering on their promise shall we?
More waiting? Ah gee wiz.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 17, 2007, 10:03:11 PM
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More waiting? Ah gee wiz.
Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"
Post by: BigJim on July 17, 2007, 10:03:20 PM
Quote
Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?
THEN SHUT THE HELL UP!
OH SNAPZ!
::examines sample list::
Galaxy, possibly Brawl if I ask for it as a gift, maybe Soul Caliber...
Guess I'm not shutting the hell up.
Quote
Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"
LOL.
Post by: Mario on July 17, 2007, 10:14:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
More waiting? Ah gee wiz.
Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"
Or you could actually play the games that came out.
Post by: Kairon on July 17, 2007, 10:35:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
More waiting? Ah gee wiz.
Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"
That's the astounding thing though. If Sony and MS had announced heavy 2008 projects at E3, then it'd be easy to criticize Nintendo. But because ALL of E3 was a "this year" event, it's no longer the gauge of long-term development commitment that we're accustomed to using it as. Our sources for information about the games industry are changing and in many ways becoming less reliable, or at least less centralized.
And because E3 has just failed us like never before, we're left high and dry for long-term indicators... there's no wonder that we have anxiety about the future, what with the non-game controversy combined with the E3 let down, with a good helping of fanboi intensity thrown in for good measure.
If there's any better solution to this than a compromise of patience, an extension of the "where's-the-proof" deadline until the TGS in September, then I'd like to hear it. But that's the only sensible and rational answer I can come up with, hoping that patience really is the virtue everyone proclaims it to be.
Post by: Mashiro on July 17, 2007, 10:45:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
More waiting? Ah gee wiz.
Yep, and WE ALL know what'll come next if Nintendo still doesn't show anything at TGS. "Wait until next year's GDC! GAWD! YOUR PROBLEM IS YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING NOW! GEEZ TROLL!"
That's the astounding thing though. If Sony and MS had announced heavy 2008 projects at E3, then it'd be easy to criticize Nintendo. But because ALL of E3 was a "this year" event, it's no longer the gauge of long-term development commitment that we're accustomed to using it as. Our sources for information about the games industry are changing and in many ways becoming less reliable, or at least less centralized.
And because E3 has just failed us like never before, we're left high and dry for long-term indicators... there's no wonder that we have anxiety about the future, what with the non-game controversy combined with the E3 let down, with a good helping of fanboi intensity thrown in for good measure.
If there's any better solution to this than a compromise of patience, an extension of the "where's-the-proof" deadline until the TGS in September, then I'd like to hear it. But that's the only sensible and rational answer I can come up with, hoping that patience really is the virtue everyone proclaims it to be.
Again Karion is right on the money.
Like I said before wait until TGS to pass judgement. If TGS rolls around and we STILL get nothing new ok then I will be a little worried and confused as to what Nintendo has planned beyond 2007 but for now, as Karion said, since no one this E3 really showed what's planned for 2008 (outside of Sony which was games we've already known, no big surprises) it's hard to pass judgement on Nintendo for not showing more.
Edit: BigJim I'm just curious . . . what games do you have for PS3? =)
Post by: King of Twitch on July 17, 2007, 10:57:06 PM
Post by: UERD on July 18, 2007, 12:20:25 AM
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That's why 3rd parties are all the more critical. How they choose to stand up to the order remains to be seen. Rarely have they demonstrated ample dedication to Nintendo's console. I know it's easy to say to have patience, but some of us have been sitting on our hands off and on for years waiting for such support. We're at a "show me" point.
I agree that 3rd parties are critical- I think they're probably the most critical part of the puzzle. But if that's the case, what is Nintendo supposed to do? They're already giving them developer support, asking them to make quality games, doing at least everything that Sony did during the PS/PS2 era plus more. Right now it's boneheaded mentalities like "we don't want to see PS3 fail, but we don't want to see them overwhelmingly succeed" (c.f. Square Enix) that's really screwing us over.
Yes, Wii's been selling very well lately. But people are still saying things about it that they didn't say when the PS, PS2, or XBox were released. Nintendo has an uphill climb in terms of perception and reception, and it may very well be a bit longer before third parties grudgingly agree that the Wii is not an evanescent trend.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 18, 2007, 12:21:46 AM
Quote
That's the astounding thing though. If Sony and MS had announced heavy 2008 projects at E3, then it'd be easy to criticize Nintendo. But because ALL of E3 was a "this year" event, it's no longer the gauge of long-term development commitment that we're accustomed to using it as. Our sources for information about the games industry are changing and in many ways becoming less reliable, or at least less centralized.
But that's just inaccurate--Sony announced a lot of software they have planned for 2008. Even Nintendo announced 2008 projects (Wii Fit and Mario Kart). Only Microsoft went the "Strictly 2007" route, really.
And, come on, E3 is NOT a completely different event. Outside of a change of venue and a more exclusive list of attendees, E3 is pretty much exactly the same, with all the same features of all the past E3s, just smaller. And really, Nintendo is the only company that treated it any differently. Sony and Microsoft (outside of not showing software for 2008) and pretty much every 3rd party developer that was there used this E3 to showcase their major projects. So, really, enough with this "E3 is sooo different, man" thing. Sure, it's changed, but in most areas that COUNT, it's still the same event.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 18, 2007, 12:35:07 AM
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Even Nintendo announced 2008 projects (Wii Fit and Mario Kart)
Incorrect, Wii Fit has no release date. Mario Kart is releasing Q1 so it's barely in 2008, hell it's probably there because there are so many big titles set to release at the end of this year they didn't want to overcrowd the release schedule. Regardless, 2 projects (that we already knew about) for Q1 2008 doesn't mean Nintendo showed off next year's goods, that stuff is just spill over from this year. E3 itself didn't really change too much, they just made it smaller and less carnival like, however Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony are the ones who made it really change by toning down their own E3 presentations, keeping more under wraps and focusing on one big title for the show.
Post by: Mashiro on July 18, 2007, 12:55:03 AM
Also, Sony only showed primarily stuff for 2008 because well . . . ALL their big stuff is coming in 2008! It would be like if Nintendo had nothing coming out this holiday season and SMG, SSBB, and Metriod were all coming out in '08 and just skimmed over the 2007 stuff.
What killer app does PS3 have for the holiday season? I know Nintendo has 3 . . .
Post by: Pittbboi on July 18, 2007, 01:05:10 AM
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Regardless, 2 projects (that we already knew about) for Q1 2008 doesn't mean Nintendo showed off next year's goods, that stuff is just spill over from this year.
I didn't say they showed off next year's good (actually, my argument this whole time is a lot closer to the opposite). I was responding to Kairon saying that this E3 is difference because nobody announced 2008 projects. That just isn't true. That was the only point I was making.
And really, Nintendo was the only company who kept major things under wraps. Sony pretty much bared all because they HAD to, and though Microsoft stuck to a "this year" philosophy, they showed EVERYTHING they had coming this year--unlike Nintendo. For example, there's NO logical reason for Brawl not having a presence at this E3 when the game is set to be released on December 3rd. Metroid Prime 3 could have had a much bigger presence as well. And, unless Disaster was pushed back again (which is highly likely), there was no reason to not have info present on that game, either.Nintendo was the ONLY company that was so mum on stuff that's being released in less than 6 months time.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on July 18, 2007, 01:22:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Requiem
Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?
Oooh, me, me, I can!
- Chicken Shoot
- High School Musical: Sing It!
- Billy the Wizard
- Dave Mirra BMX Challenge
- Disney Princess: Enchanted Journey
Post by: therat on July 18, 2007, 06:08:52 AM
Post by: Requiem on July 18, 2007, 06:51:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJimQuote
Now can you pick at least 5 games that you are interested in?
THEN SHUT THE HELL UP!
OH SNAPZ!
::examines sample list::
Galaxy, possibly Brawl if I ask for it as a gift, maybe Soul Caliber...
Guess I'm not shutting the hell up.
LOL.
Dude that list hits up every single genre: from point and click, to live-action RTS. There has to be something more you are interested in.
P.S. Why did you buy a PS3? It has a worse line-up! I don't here you bitching about that!
Sounds like we have a hypocrite on our hands.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 18, 2007, 07:03:23 AM
"Their audience makeup is changing because they're not capable of luring the XBox crowd away with little more than an innovative controller and Nintendo first parties. To improve Wii sales over their abysmal last-gen performance, they have to look beyond their core Nintendo hardcore audience. They can either go for the 'other gamers' or the 'nongamers'. Guess which one they chose."
I don't like this idea that Nintendo HAD to go for non-gamers because they can't compete with Sony and MS for the old market. That's come up since the Wii remote was first introduced and I think it's crap. Nintendo never gave a real effort. They f*cked up a lot and that's why they never got that market back. Now if they did nearly everything right and still ended up last then I think it's fair to say that going with a different group was the only option. But they pretty much showed up to a fight without properly training for it, lost, and then gave up. Well of course you're going to fail when you don't learn from your mistakes and don't put in a real effort. The Gamecube didn't fail because the universe is against Nintendo. It's because Nintendo screwed up so much.
Now I'm not saying that going after non-gamers from a financial point of view wasn't a good idea anyway and gamer drift is a problem in Japan (though I don't think Nintendo has made an attempt to fix it, they've just traded one group for another). But had they gone with a "normal" console and didn't screw up a bunch I don't think they would be in big trouble. They're not incapable of competing. Hell with Sony f*cking up so much Nintendo just had to not suck as much as them and they would have won the Japan market by default which would keep them competing with MS, regardless of whatever dumb self-defeating stuff they might do.
Now from a business perspective Nintendo's plan worked so that was a good plan I guess. But don't tell me that it was the only way because it wasn't. Now THIS Nintendo, yeah, they would have got creamed because they really haven't fixed their problems in regards to the old market. Hell if you hear them Nintendo seems to think the Cube didn't sell well enough because of gamer drift, and not because of anything wrong Nintendo themselves did. But if they learned from their mistakes and made a real effort I think they would have done fine.
The whole thing is kind of ironic because for years I would suggest things Nintendo should do to get back on top and tons of people accused me of wanting Nintendo to be too much like Sony and target the casuals. I didn't want that but the idea then of actually increasing the market share was sometimes seen as compromising what Nintendo was. Now they're on their way to being back on top by being even MORE casual then Sony ever was and by very obviously changing and any criticism of that on this board is now a minority opinion. Those who didn't want Nintendo to sell out before now support them for doing so.
Post by: Requiem on July 18, 2007, 07:35:42 AM
Deal with it.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 18, 2007, 07:52:49 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 18, 2007, 08:06:23 AM
Post by: Requiem on July 18, 2007, 08:13:09 AM
The only reason he's even bringing up Nintendo's business plan, is because he doesn't like it or in his words "Nintendo never gave a real effort." He doesn't like how Nintendo automatically just switched it's focus because they "showed up to a fight without properly training for it, lost, and then gave up."
It's all stemming back to how Ian feels abandoned by Nintendo as a gamer who's been with them for years. He wants his old beloved Nintendo back (as do we all), but he needs to stop grasping at false illusions or pretenses of what Nintendo was and start appreciating Nintendo now, or jump ship, or never play games again.
In other words, dealing with it.
So try to be a bigger @sshole Pittboi.
Post by: BigJim on July 18, 2007, 08:22:26 AM
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Dude that list hits up every single genre: from point and click, to live-action RTS. There has to be something more you are interested in.
P.S. Why did you buy a PS3? It has a worse line-up! I don't here you bitching about that!
Sounds like we have a hypocrite on our hands.
LAWL. I have a problem where I spend $500 on stuff I don't want.
Should I return it and buy my 1st of 4 360's? Because I totally want that headache. Thanks in advance.
Quote
Nintendo had it's name marred by a negative stereotype (teh k!ddie) started by Sony fanboys during the N64 era.
Actually, started by Sega from NES through SNES. And somewhat rightfully so. But I didn't care because I WAS teh kidd!e back then.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 18, 2007, 08:26:26 AM
Quote
Sony had the big name coming into the game, Microsoft also had a dominating household name through general computing and little old Nintendo had it's name marred by a negative stereotype (teh k!ddie) started by Sony fanboys during the N64 era.
I have to disagree with that. Granted, Sony and Microsoft jabbing at Nintendo with "teh kidddie" didn't help, but they wouldn't have had anything to shoot at Nintendo if Nintendo didn't give them the ammunition. Nintendo is the one who decided to market a purple lunchbox that made tinker-toy noises when it booted up its mini-discs as their console, and featured Mario and Pikachu as their main mascots. Nintendo, at the beginning of the 'Cube's life, WANTED the Cube to be seen as appealing and approachable as a toy, and as noble as that thinking was it most assuredly backfired. If anything, Nintendo still had a fair chance of getting their market share back at the beginning of last gen. They only had one "failed" console (That was still a success) behind them, and most people still remembered the SNES and considered Nintendo to be gaming, with the Playstation name only recently having creeped up on them. Nintendo, had they made a few more good decisions could have definitely had a chance against Sony. It was MS, arguably, that started off in the worst position. They hadn't a chance in hell of winning over the key Japanese market (and still kinda don't), and the rest of the world was weary that MS was, as usualy, just entering another industry in an attempt to absorb and erode it like the money-hungry monopoly it is..
And Requiem: Whatever. To me it looked like Ian was simply responding to the idea that Nintendo COULDN'T have competed with Sony and MS with his belief (that a lot of people share) that they didn't put their best foot forward in their attempt. And, last time I checked, his was as valid an opinion as anyone else's here, so why he should be the one to "deal with it" doesn't seem fair.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 18, 2007, 08:34:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJimQuote
Nintendo had it's name marred by a negative stereotype (teh k!ddie) started by Sony fanboys during the N64 era.
Actually, started by Sega from NES through SNES. And somewhat rightfully so. But I didn't care because I WAS teh kidd!e back then.
Fair enough, my point still stands though.
Pittbboi, I agree with you about the Purple Lunchbox stuff, but it's the games that Nintendo made that people attacked them on more so. Having Mario and Pikachu as mascots doesn't make them kidd!e, Sony, Sega and whoever else just spun it that way.
Post by: Requiem on July 18, 2007, 08:44:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Sony had the big name coming into the game, Microsoft also had a dominating household name through general computing and little old Nintendo had it's name marred by a negative stereotype (teh k!ddie) started by Sony fanboys during the N64 era.
And Requiem: Whatever. To me it looked like Ian was simply responding to the idea that Nintendo COULDN'T have competed with Sony and MS with his belief (that a lot of people share) that they didn't put their best foot forward in their attempt. And, last time I checked, his was as valid an opinion as anyone else's here, so why he should be the one to "deal with it" doesn't seem fair.
Because he's really the only one that hasn't. I don't know who long you been here, but complaining is Ian's fortay. Back when Nintendo wasn't doing so well, his opinion was validated and pretty much crucial to this boards well-being. However now, when Nintendo is doing great, he still continues to complain about past events.
It's all because he refuses to deal with what Nintendo has become.
Post by: Kairon on July 18, 2007, 08:51:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The whole thing is kind of ironic because for years I would suggest things Nintendo should do to get back on top and tons of people accused me of wanting Nintendo to be too much like Sony and target the casuals. I didn't want that but the idea then of actually increasing the market share was sometimes seen as compromising what Nintendo was. Now they're on their way to being back on top by being even MORE casual then Sony ever was and by very obviously changing and any criticism of that on this board is now a minority opinion. Those who didn't want Nintendo to sell out before now support them for doing so.
I can't disagree with you more on this Ian. I've been argueing for Nintendo to abandon the high-tech wars and differentiate themselves since halfway through the Cube generation, whish is exactly what we're seeing now. As a Nintendo fan from practically birth (drawing Zelda maps for Mom when I was a wee kid... was I 3?) this is EXACTLY what I want Nintendo to be. I don't know how much cred you need to have to be the type of gamer you describe Ian, but I'm someone with an NES and SNES in my history who LOVES the fact that Nintendo is living up to its potential in innovation, in creating new experiences, and in not getting caught up in comparing e-peen lengths with Sony and MS.
Do I want hardcore games? YOU BET! I've been pining away for a GOOD Secret of Mana sequel for ages. I'm an RPG fan... who hasn't played an RPG he's liked in years. I want RTS' and Simulations and secretly pine away for Peter Molyneux's Fable (maybe I'll buy it on PC...). I want adventure games and arcade space flight sims... and I have NOTHING bad to say about the PS3 lineup (except the games that got delayed out of it). And there's a small, nostalgic part of me that asks "Why can't all golf games be more like Links?" That part also wants to design it's own Free Lancer universe.
... but that's only part of me. Above and beyond that I want to be entertained with new experiences. I DON'T believe in static gaming, or static interfaces. I miss the level of interaction that computer joysticks gave me back in the day when I could afford them. I DON'T believe that merely because things become prettier, they're all of a sudden new and exciting. Freelancer is the same thing Privateer... with a snazzy new mouse-flying system, but essentialy THE SAME. I accept the wonders of graphical excellence, but my relationship to the game itself remains paramount, not superficialities.
The Wii speaks straight to that within me. Now there are more games that can expand the experiences that the Superscope hinted to me back with the SNES, there are games that will inspire the same simple mindlink that I got when playing (Hot?) Coffee Break in Mario Paint, there are games that FINALLY don't use the dual analog control set-up that I HATEHATEHATE in FPS games that I dearly want to play (but not competitively). And... there's the possibility of cheaper games (I don't care how graphical you are, I'd prefer not to pay $60 if I can) and indie games (Blast Fighters? de Blob?) and for games from more zany, more unpredicatble small developers (Space Station Tycoon). Maybe we'll even get some sandbox experiences from Rockstar, a company I first latched onto after getting a taste of their world design in Body Harvest 64.
And with the Wii, the future is wide-open. The chiefest attraction is that it ISN'T a Gamecube 2, a PS-whatever, an XBox-yeah. I've always played Nintendo not only because they made the best games of their kind, but because their games were always different and unique in some fundamental way. This is why Zelda games are so hard to genre-fy, they're not simple action-adventure games. They're ZELDA games. Finally, after the disappointment of the Gamecube sequel era (Pikmin not withstanding) I can see that old uniqueness and individuality returning with a vengeance. And this time, not only from Nintendo, but possibly from an entire industry.
You think they're dumbing down games Ian? You think that Nintendo has gone more mainstream than Madden? I never hated mainstream (except when I was a flaming fanboi... but those are not times to be proud of). I enjoyed Sims. I enjoyed Halo... much like I ate up Perfect Dark's co-op mode, I beat Halo 2 in a night with my younger brother. I enjoyed Fatty Bear's Birthday surprise (a surprisingly good adventure game from my childhood!). Heck, believe it or not, I'm perfectly willing to PLAY Madden when I have some company, because cooperation is fun, and I actually find football to be a pretty neat sport! ... and for the first 6 months of my original Playstation's life, I played an NBA basketball game with my dad every night (and yelled about how the computer cheated on hard mode).
And you know what? I hear that Hannah Montana: Music Jam is turning out BETTER than Ubisoft's Jam Sessions!!!
So you can go on hating what is essentially a gamer drift AWAY FROM YOU, but I can't help but see the possibility that Nintendo might have unlocked a hidden treasure trove where gaming, in all its senses, explodes all of a sudden in every direction, exploding with newness and uniqueness and experimentation, exploding with radically new experiences that I've always searched for in the past, whether it be through Syndicate, or Mario Paint. This isn't a Nintendo that's betraying me. This is a Nintendo that's fulfilling me.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 18, 2007, 08:51:14 AM
Quote
Having Mario and Pikachu as mascots doesn't make them kidd!e, Sony, Sega and whoever else just spun it that way.
And I agree with that. I actually loved the Nintendo from the Gamecube years...well, the first 2 years or so of the Gamecube years. You know, the "F*ck DVDs! The Gamecube a no-nonsense machine for games." But they should have been more mindful of their overall image and how it would be perceived . That, more than anything the competition said, in my opinion, hurt the 'Cube.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 18, 2007, 09:02:30 AM
Quote
So you can go on hating what is essentially a gamer drift AWAY FROM YOU, but I can't help but see the possibility that Nintendo might have unlocked a hidden treasure trove where gaming, in all its senses, explodes all of a sudden in every direction, exploding with newness and uniqueness and experimentation, exploding with radically new experiences that I've always searched for in the past, whether it be through Syndicate, or Mario Paint. This isn't a Nintendo that's betraying me. This is a Nintendo that's fulfilling me.
This is a very inspiring scene you've painted here, Kairon. But I really don't think a wiimote alone is going to bring about a gaming revolution like we were led to believe. At least, it hasn't yet. In this attempt to explode in all directions, in all it's senses, Nintendo seems to be neglecting one important aspect of gaming--graphics (YES, it's important, or Miyamoto wouldn't be going out of his way to make Galaxy look as beautiful as it does), and a budding aspect of gaming--online. I think it's false to consider Nintendo on some higher plateau when it comes to the game industry. They're doing what everyone else is doing, trying to make money and doing what they can to make as much of it as they can. They're just doing this by reaching out to a different market. Nintendo's not some Mahatma Ghandi of gaming...
Post by: Kairon on July 18, 2007, 09:18:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
This is a very inspiring scene you've painted here, Kairon. But I really don't think a wiimote alone is going to bring about a gaming revolution like we were led to believe. At least, it hasn't yet. In this attempt to explode in all directions, in all it's senses, Nintendo seems to be neglecting one important aspect of gaming--graphics (YES, it's important, or Miyamoto wouldn't be going out of his way to make Galaxy look as beautiful as it does), and a budding aspect of gaming--online. I think it's false to consider Nintendo on some higher plateau when it comes to the game industry. They're doing what everyone else is doing, trying to make money and doing what they can to make as much of it as they can. They're just doing this by reaching out to a different market. Nintendo's not some Mahatma Ghandi of gaming...
That's why you don't want a one console future. Nintendo obviously can't, or won't, do everything. This is why I stress third parties, why I appreciate PC and PS3 and XBox 360 efforts, and why I have absolutely no problem wif you want to buy a PS3. Actually, I'm sorta hyped for Little Big Planet... and I've been trying to persuade Golden Phoenix to get it despite her reservations!
I'm not saying that Nintendo is the ONE solution. I'm saying they're PART OF IT.
Post by: Kairon on July 18, 2007, 09:22:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Having Mario and Pikachu as mascots doesn't make them kidd!e, Sony, Sega and whoever else just spun it that way.
And I agree with that. I actually loved the Nintendo from the Gamecube years...well, the first 2 years or so of the Gamecube years. You know, the "F*ck DVDs! The Gamecube a no-nonsense machine for games." But they should have been more mindful of their overall image and how it would be perceived . That, more than anything the competition said, in my opinion, hurt the 'Cube.
Well, the N64 had 35 million shipped worldwide. The GC had 20 million. The Gamecube probably lost those 15 million customers for ALL the reasons we've stated (though I'm inclined to believe that a failure to differentiate successfully was the biggest, but still, many rerasons), and fixing any one reason probably wouldn't have made that much of a difference.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 18, 2007, 10:29:31 AM
If you're in school and everyone picks on you and calls you a sissy that's unfair. But then if you go to school wearing a pink shirt the next day you're an idiot. Nintendo is in full control of how they react to criticism or smear campaigns against them. When you're accused of being for kids you don't make your consoles look like a purple toy and turn one your few popular franchises that isn't accused of being for kids into a cartoon. Whey you're accused of being behind the times you don't not support online gaming (after lying about it) when everyone else is. When you're accused of having gaps in the release schedule you try to avoid having your console start out with a big drought. When you're accused of weak third party support you don't have the E3 debut of your console feature only ONE third party game. The Gamecube flopped because everyone had a negative image of Nintendo and the Gamecube's first impression played into that image near perfectly. Later on Nintendo went sequel crazy which fit into that negative "Nintendo rehashes" image. It was really frustrating to watch.
So to say they couldn't do anything is like if a sports team relocates. The assumption might be that the area the team moved from wasn't a good market for that sport. But what if the team sucked and had a losing season every year it was in that area? You can't really prove then that the area isn't interested in the sport. Maybe they would be if the team didn't suck. In the NHL Colorado is considered a good hockey market. They had a team relocate in the past but the Avalanche have been very popular because the Rockies sucked and the Avs have won two Stanley Cups. Meanwhile Nashville has one of the best teams in the league and the franchise is going to move because they aren't making money. In that case it's fair to say Nashville isn't a good hockey market because they won't even support a good team.
"I don't know how much cred you need to have to be the type of gamer you describe Ian, but I'm someone with an NES and SNES in my history who LOVES the fact that Nintendo is living up to its potential in innovation, in creating new experiences, and in not getting caught up in comparing e-peen lengths with Sony and MS."
I don't want Nintendo to be like Sony or MS. I want them to innovate and create new experiences. That's why I'm concerned about the innovation and new ideas going towards non-games but not so much gamer games. I want new experiences but Nintendo seems to want to save those for my grandma and give me the same stuff as before. I think you and I in theory want the same thing from Nintendo but don't see the Wii in the same light.
Post by: Kairon on July 18, 2007, 10:39:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I don't know how much cred you need to have to be the type of gamer you describe Ian, but I'm someone with an NES and SNES in my history who LOVES the fact that Nintendo is living up to its potential in innovation, in creating new experiences, and in not getting caught up in comparing e-peen lengths with Sony and MS."
I don't want Nintendo to be like Sony or MS. I want them to innovate and create new experiences. That's why I'm concerned about the innovation and new ideas going towards non-games but not so much gamer games. I want new experiences but Nintendo seems to want to save those for my grandma and give me the same stuff as before. I think you and I in theory want the same thing from Nintendo but don't see the Wii in the same light.
I do think we want the same thing in theory Iansane, except that I don't draw as many lines as you do. Just because seniors are playing Wii Sports doesn't make me enjoy it less. If I had fun with it, then the game was made for ME. Just because the Japanese got a version of Ouendan with a different songlist than we got here, it doesn't mean that I can't play it. Those Japanese songs I can't understand are MINE. Just because Cubivore was an N64 port and never came out in the states on the GC until years after, it doesn't mean I turn my nose up to it. I was a PIGGY, goldarnit. I was PIGGY-CAI.
...PIGGY-FRICKIN'-CAI.
Post by: UERD on July 18, 2007, 11:37:54 AM
Nintendo's franchises have to struggle to be considered 'hardcore'. There's nothing on any other console like Smash Bros, Metroid, or Zelda...and perception-wise, that's not a good thing. Smash Bros is seen as the 'black sheep' of fighting games, Metroid for FPS games, and Zelda for RPGs...even though none of those games belong in the aforementioned categories. 'Hardcore' gamers don't give a wooden nickel when Nintendo 'innovates', with a couple of exceptions.
Nintendo's last-gen lineup was actually pretty excellent. There were several very good third party games (although the overall quantity was not large) and a whole lot more very good first party games. Would they have done better if they had heavily emphasized graphics and gone for the FPS/Grand Theft Auto market? They might have, but there would be no guarantee that they would have been able to recapture the big franchises (like Final Fantasy). Actually, it's probably a good thing they didn't do that from a business standpoint: Halo would have had a much more adverse effect on Nintendo sales if it had been directly competing with Nintendo games.
So, no, Nintendo could NOT have maintained a viable business without reaching outwards. It's not like people were going to see Nintendo come out with a black-on-black chromed console with a 6 Ghz chip that cost $500 and been 'wow, no more k!ddy!'. Or to put it another way, how much better would the PS3 be doing if Nintendo's franchises were somehow magically transplanted to it?
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This is a very inspiring scene you've painted here, Kairon. But I really don't think a wiimote alone is going to bring about a gaming revolution like we were led to believe. At least, it hasn't yet. In this attempt to explode in all directions, in all it's senses, Nintendo seems to be neglecting one important aspect of gaming--graphics (YES, it's important, or Miyamoto wouldn't be going out of his way to make Galaxy look as beautiful as it does), and a budding aspect of gaming--online.
Ya, graphics are important. How many people have a HDTV and HDMI inputs? How many people really care that much about the difference between last generation and this generation? The biggest improvements were going from the SNES era to the N64 era, and from the N64 era to the Cube era. Any improvements in the future are going to be more and more incremental.
Unfortunately, I think I have to agree with you when you say they've neglected online
.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 18, 2007, 11:43:16 AM
Post by: IceCold on July 18, 2007, 01:42:49 PM
Super Mario Galaxy (given) - November 12
Super Smash Bros Brawl (given) - December 3
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption (given) - August 20
Mario Strikers: Charged - July 30
BWii - October 29
Trauma Centre (if it comes out)
Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles - October
NiGHTS - November 13
Less likely, probably rent:
Dewy's Adventure - September 4
Soul Calibur Legends - November 6
Zack and Wiki - Fall 2007
Ghost Squad - November 6
Fifa 08
Smackdown vs Raw 2008
Add in games that I'm not interested in but I can see why many others would be (Mario&Sonic Olympics, DDR: Hottest Party, Godzilla, Dragon Quest: Swords if it comes out, Guitar Hero III, Dragon Ball Z, Raving Rabbids 2) and that is hands down the strongest 2007 lineup from all three consoles.
Personally, even right now in the middle of the supposed drought I'm behind in games, and with DS holiday games to consider (Phantom Hourglass!) there really isn't any way I won't be busy until deep into 2008, even if there are no new games for that year.
All I can say is, Nintendo better have millions upon millions upon millions of consoles ready for the holidays.
Post by: that Baby guy on July 18, 2007, 02:02:51 PM
If interest snowballs some more, they'll be able to sell out at least until March in that case, too. This is certainly very interesting, at least to me. Nintendo very well could go without reaching market saturation for another year or so.
Post by: UERD on July 18, 2007, 03:02:08 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 05:48:53 AM
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Guess how many copies of SSBM Nintendo sold? 6 million. Guess how many copies of Halo (1) sold on the XBox? 8 million. How the hell was Nintendo supposed to compete with Sony and Microsoft last generation on *their* terms? The N64 was definitely not less 'cool' or more 'k!ddy' than the PS1 (in fact, the PS1 looked positively dowdy compared to the N64). Never mind that Nintendo lost market share that generation and came in second (out of two consoles). What were they supposed to do?
Halo 1 was a popular NEW franchise that was hyped to the high heavens and to this day is considered THE game to revolutionize console FPS games since Goldeneye. SSBM is general fanservice wank. GREAT game, but definitely not marketed the same way the first Halo was and more specifically catering to people who had always been Nintendo fans. Not to mention the fact that, even though it didn't sell Halo 1 numbers, it was STILL a big selling game.
Gamers outside of Nintendo fans don't give a crap about Mario, Metroid, and Zelda because Nintendo had an image of being a rehash machine and they played into it. They milked the same franchises over and over with very LITTLE innovation (the BIG 3 haven't seen any sort of significant change until, well, this year) and that came back around to bite them in the ass. Nintendo is a quality developer, they make EXCELLENT games, but Nintendo in those days had a negative image and they did NOTHING to improve it but EVERYTHING to make it worse. Based alone on the quality of their products I can't say that Nintendo made an honest-to-god attempt at recapturing the market because they've ALWAYS had to potential to be the leader. But they kept doing what they had been doing with the N64 and then looked stupid and tried to blame the industry itself when it didn't work.
Can you imagine what kind of splash Nintendo would make if they announced a new gamer IP that was made with the same resources that Mario, Zelda and Metroid get? Can you imagine, for example, how A-freaking-Mazing a game like Project HAMMER could have been if it had been in the hands of EAD instead of Nintendo's afterthought team NST? That alone would have owned this year's E3, hands down.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 19, 2007, 05:58:47 AM
For the most part I agree with you but I'll give Metroid full credit for doing something new last gen. Metroid Prime was one of the innovative titles of last generation. But otherwise you're right. People think Nintendo just makes sequels and Nintendo's response to that was with sequels. Who's dumb idea was "Who are you?" That marketing campaign just screamed "we rehash everything".
New IPs or completely new takes on existing IPs (like Super Mario 64 or Final Fantasy VII) are always the big system sellers. Why buy a Cube to play what was on the N64. Nintendo was actually correct in feeling that innovation was important for the Wii. The problem is they learned that lesson in a weird roundabout way that avoiding putting fault on themselves and they aren't extending that philosophy everywhere. They see innovation as important to attract non-gamers but don't really see how important it is for gamers as well.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 06:54:12 AM
Just to clear up another point, I'm GLAD Nintendo doesn't mess with the formula too much for any of their big name games, they are good just the way they are. As I've said before, I don't think Nintendo has ever done wrong by it's fans, and if you look back at the old generations, Nintendo games are consistently the best games of those generations, this is no coincidence. Instead of running with the crowd Nintendo has always done it's own thing. I respect that and I'm glad they pursued their own unique path.
* - not trying to use the word to offend anyone, just reiterating what so many people have said
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2007, 07:33:39 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 07:38:42 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2007, 07:41:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Yes, Golden, and Wii Fit is IT!
Not sure if that is sarcasm or not! But I do think Wii fit will have a similar impact Wii sports had, and will probably cause shortages once again (if they even let up before it comes out).
Post by: Ian Sane on July 19, 2007, 07:55:50 AM
There's only been two games. And Halo 3 won't sell Xbox 360s in a significant way. Just wait.
"if people hated rehashes why the hell does Madden sell 10 zillion copies every year?"
No one buys a console for Madden because it's on every console. You pick a console for a different reason and then get Madden on it. The PS2 wasn't the market leader because it had Madden on it. Grand Theft Auto 3 sold PS2s because it was different than other games before it.
"Bottom line is, people just thought all Nintendo stuff was g@y* and for little kids so they didn't bother with it."
"it is the image the series has that matters most."
Okay so how is the Gamecube's failing not Nintendo's fault when they made no serious effort to change that image? "Everyone thinks Mario is for kids so let's just pepper our console with an insane amount of Mario spinoffs! Oh that didn't work. Well obviously it's not our fault." There are different theories as to why Nintendo couldn't get back on track with the Gamecube but I haven't seen any of them that don't put a fair bit of blame on Nintendo themselves. Everyone knew what they were up against but Nintendo didn't do anything about it. That's not a real effort and thus proves nothing about Nintendo's potential to compete in the traditional gaming market. The only way I see Nintendo being unable to compete in the old market is because they're too clueless and stupid to ever learn from their mistakes. Yeah for that Nintendo looking at a different market was their only option but they don't HAVE to be stubborn idiots. If they never learn then this audience won't last either. They'll f*ck up, fail to recognize they did so, and they'll be screwed again. Nintendo has always had the talent and commitment to quality to compete with anyone. Their problems have always been at a corporate level with poor marketing, blatantly dumb decisions, and refusal to admit mistakes.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 19, 2007, 07:57:43 AM
Guaranteed blockbuster that will skyrocket Nintendo way beyond the heavens that it is currently ascending to.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2007, 07:59:02 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 07:59:57 AM
Quote
Not sure if that is sarcasm or not! But I do think Wii fit will have a similar impact Wii sports had, and will probably cause shortages once again (if they even let up before it comes out).
Sarcasm...
And I honestly don't think Wii Fit will have near the same impact Wii Sports did for reasons I listed in another thread, I think. Wii Sports-like DDR-was physically demanding and a good workout as side-effects to its main purpose: being a fun game to play (if a little on the simplistic side, in my opinion). WiiFit, on the other hand, is just a glorified scale and exercise simulator bundle with "fun" and "gameplay" as after-thoughts. I think Nintendo got cocky with their whole "Wii will change the world!" thing, and Wii Fit just may be the result. Americans have never taken kindly to products that blatantly yell "EXERCISE!!" at them, and that looks to be exactly what Wii Fit is doing...just not as effective as actual workout equipment.
This video actually highlights perfectly why I think Wii Fit will be surrounded by initial buzz, but ultimately fail. And it's quite funny:
Wii Fit Parody
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2007, 08:01:57 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 08:03:38 AM
EDIT: For clarification, when I say "That wasn't Nintendo's style" I am referring to making more Mature games, not grabbing market share.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 08:05:01 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 08:09:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
And I think you will be wrong yet again Pittbboi, just wait and see.
QFT. I would be very surprised if Wii Fit wasn't a big hit. People are going to gobble it up, especially for the holidays.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2007, 08:12:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mr. JackQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
And I think you will be wrong yet again Pittbboi, just wait and see.
QFT. I would be very surprised if Wii Fit wasn't a big hit. People are going to gobble it up, especially for the holidays.
Well Wii Fit has been getting similar attention by the media as Wii sports did. The reason why I think it will do well is at the moment the diet/weight loss industry is rapidly growing and people are looking for "easier" ways of losing weight. While Wiifit is exercise, it also adds one key ingredience, fun, something to keep the mind occupied to the point where people don't feel they are just exercising. Interesting that Pittbboi brought up DDR, because that is a hit series as well and I think it proves my point about the interest being there for a "fun" way of getting in shape.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 08:22:51 AM
Quote
Interesting that Pittbboi brought up DDR, because that is a hit series as well and I think it proves my point about the interest being there for a "fun" way of getting in shape.
I don't think DDR is a good comparison for why Wii Fit may be successful. As I said earlier, DDR is a game that presents exciting and addictive gameplay FIRST. The brilliance of DDR is that you don't realize how physically demanding it is until the song is over and you notice how heavy you're breathing and that your shirt is drenched with sweat. The exercise sneaks up on you.
Not the case with Wii Fit. It's exercise first, and MAYBE you'll have some fun. And I'm sorry, but the game just doesn't look fun. Hoola hoop? "Watch out for the sh!t people are kicking at your head" game? The "mini-games" in Wii Fit make even WiiPlay look like Mario Galaxy.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 08:52:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Not the case with Wii Fit. It's exercise first, and MAYBE you'll have some fun. And I'm sorry, but the game just doesn't look fun. Hoola hoop? "Watch out for the sh!t people are kicking at your head" game? The "mini-games" in Wii Fit make even WiiPlay look like Mario Galaxy.
Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean that it won't appeal to anyone. I would consider myself a "hardcore," "old-school" gamer and I think it looks interesting. I'm sure there are plenty others who consider themselves the same type of gamer who agree with me. I'm also certain it will grab attention from moms and dads across the world as a great way to work out in the house and have some fun while doing so (as GP said).
Post by: BigJim on July 19, 2007, 09:01:40 AM
Quote
Nintendo shouldn't have started making mainstream games (for that time, "Mature" games) just to grab more marketshare. That wasn't Nintendo's style so they didn't go with it. Nintendo realized the problem wasn't that they were making the wrong games, they were just marketing them to the wrong people.
What? So.... if they weren't making the wrong games but just marketing them to the wrong people, then how does that reconcile with them now still not marketing Zelda, Metroid, Mario, etc etc etc to the mainstream, and instead making and marketing off-tilt stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Brain Age, etc. to them.
This change in lineup is also the very definition of a marketshare grab.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 09:03:23 AM
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I would consider myself a "hardcore," "old-school" gamer and I think it looks interesting.
I don't think it has anything to do with what kind of "gamer" a person is. My argument is that very little of what Wii Fit is looks like a game. If you can tell me where the "fun gameplay" aspect is in the way Yoga, Push-Ups, and "stick out your leg" mini-"games" are presented in Wii Fit, and I may buy that. The aspects of Wii Fit that are games just don't seem that fleshed out to me. I mean, c'mon, Roll the Ball in the Hole? As you said, it may just be me...
But heck, even most dvds nowadays come with little interactive "games" on them.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 09:09:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
What? So.... if they weren't making the wrong games but just marketing them wrong, then how does that reconcile with them not marketing Zelda, Metroid, Mario, etc etc etc to the mainstream, and instead making and marketing off-tilt stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Brain Age, etc. to them.
This change in lineup is also the very definition of a marketshare grab.
The lineup really hasn't changed, they have just augmented it with the more casual game experiences. Those casual games are a gateway to their core franchises which will more likely appeal to the casual crowd as opposed to the "mature" gamer that only likes games with copious amounts of blood and violence. Nintendo is a family friendly company, and becoming the company everyone here seems to want them to become is impossible because it doesn't and has never fit with their company values. Of course Nintendo is trying to grab marketshare, what company wouldn't, they were just trying to grab the wrong share of the market, hence their previous failure and now success.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 09:25:40 AM
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opposed to the "mature" gamer that only likes games with copious amounts of blood and violence.
Does every argument really have to be slathered with this really, really inaccurate statement?
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Nintendo is a family friendly company, and becoming the company everyone here seems to want them to become is impossible because it doesn't and has never fit with their company values.
It did, right up to the Wii. Nintendo only busts out the "Family Friendly Company" distraction when it suits them. In truth, by the end of this generation, there will most like be a healthy dose of family friendly titles on every console. The opinion, though, is that Nintendo's constant harping and catering to that market is threatening their "gamer" market.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 09:28:47 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 09:29:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
I would consider myself a "hardcore," "old-school" gamer and I think it looks interesting.
I don't think it has anything to do with what kind of "gamer" a person is. My argument is that very little of what Wii Fit is looks like a game. If you can tell me where the "fun gameplay" aspect is in the way Yoga, Push-Ups, and "stick out your leg" mini-"games" are presented in Wii Fit, and I may buy that. The aspects of Wii Fit that are games just don't seem that fleshed out to me. I mean, c'mon, Roll the Ball in the Hole? As you said, it may just be me...
But heck, even most dvds nowadays come with little interactive "games" on them.
Wii Fit seems to be segmented into serious exercise type regiments and fun minigames that involve some amount of physical activity. Yoga, Pushups, and Pilates are obviously not meant to be games. It gives people who exercise some information that they couldn't get without digital input that should help them track progress. We still haven't seen all of the minigames that will exist in Wii Fit, so assuming the 5 or so things we saw is all that we are going to see is being ignorant.
I don't understand why Nintendo trying to reach new audiences is such a terrible thing. The Wii had my parents playing video games (which they never do), which to me is truly a great thing. Now instead of playing some crappy board game like Pictionary, we grab up Wii Sports and go for some Bowling or Tennis.
If all you naysayers don't like it I will have to revert to Requiem's response "Deal with it." No one knows what the future holds, so sit back and see, if it isn't the experience you were hoping for go buy another gaming system. Even if it does wind up being all casual games that doesn't guarantee you won't wind up liking them.
Post by: Pittbboi on July 19, 2007, 09:34:45 AM
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There is really nothing inaccurate about it, go talk to 10 mainstream gamers and see what their favorite games are. Madden, GTA and various other M rated violent crap. Trust me 95% of my friends are like that.
That's a really bad argument. I mean, Madden is a sports title, not blood and violence. And GTA is just one series that caters to mature gamers. Mature gamers like a slew of different genres, but that SHOULD go without saying, and it's sad that that even needs to be argued. Heck, this argument can be refuted with some of Nintendo's very own games!
And, I'm sorry, but Pictionary pwns.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 09:39:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
There is really nothing inaccurate about it, go talk to 10 mainstream gamers and see what their favorite games are. Madden, GTA and various other M rated violent crap. Trust me 95% of my friends are like that.
That's a really bad argument. I mean, Madden is a sports title, not blood and violence. And GTA is just one series that caters to mature gamers. Mature gamers like a slew of different genres, but that SHOULD go without saying, and it's sad that that even needs to be argued. Heck, this argument can be refuted with some of Nintendo's very own games!
And, I'm sorry, but Pictionary pwns.
I wasn't arguing that Madden is violent, just that it is one of the few games the mainstream gamer gets excited about, I was just listing it as a fact not to bolster my argument. All I'm saying is that a huge portion of people who bought the PS2 bought it for just the games I had listed. It's not impossible for them to like other games, but the games they typically get excited about tend to fit that stereotype. Violence driven games are appealing to humans naturally, destruction is the natural order.
Post by: BigJim on July 19, 2007, 09:40:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mr. JackQuote
Originally posted by: BigJim
What? So.... if they weren't making the wrong games but just marketing them wrong, then how does that reconcile with them not marketing Zelda, Metroid, Mario, etc etc etc to the mainstream, and instead making and marketing off-tilt stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, Brain Age, etc. to them.
This change in lineup is also the very definition of a marketshare grab.
The lineup really hasn't changed, they have just augmented it with the more casual game experiences. Those casual games are a gateway to their core franchises which will more likely appeal to the casual crowd as opposed to the "mature" gamer that only likes games with copious amounts of blood and violence. Nintendo is a family friendly company, and becoming the company everyone here seems to want them to become is impossible because it doesn't and has never fit with their company values. Of course Nintendo is trying to grab marketshare, what company wouldn't, they were just trying to grab the wrong share of the market, hence their previous failure and now success.
They make new types of games to market to a new audience. Since they didn't instead market the types of games they have always made to the new audience, it makes no sense to say it was nothing but a marketing screw-up and nothing changed except for who they marketed to.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 09:49:50 AM
I hope that makes sense, it's not something that is very easy to explain through writing.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 19, 2007, 09:51:40 AM
The Wii is hitting 9 million because Nintendo is attracting a new market. Plus the PS3 is a total bomb so that makes it easier for them to compete. Nintendo never learned how to compete in the old market. So if this new group treats videogames as a fad and disappears Nintendo is back to square one. If they ever get to the point where they have to sell primarily to the old gamer market again they'll be in trouble because they never clued in to what they were doing wrong. They dodged the problem instead of solving it.
Wii Fit looks like work to me. Same with the vision training game. Brain Age and Wii Sports at least relate to fun activities. People like to play sports and like to do brain puzzles like crosswords and such. In Japan there are "non-games" that are actually educational software like ones that teach English. That isn't a game at all and I really don't think it would fly in the US (a different language game, obviously not English).
Considering how Nintendo thinks what applies to Japan applies everywhere I figure at some point they'll take a risk with a non-game that is TOO non-game and they'll look like idiots when they push Wii Taxes or Wii Chores as their big Christmas title and it's a huge bomb. Wii Fit might not be the one to do it but there's a limit on how much you can dress up work like a fun activity in North America.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 19, 2007, 10:00:59 AM
If that's the case then why does Nintendo feel the need to alter Zelda or Mario to be less intimidating or remark how the wheel will make Mario Kart more accessible? If the classics were already suitable they wouldn't need to tinker with them at all. The non-gamers are different product made for a different audience and Nintendo is altering the classic content to fit that market as well. It's no different than if they made Mario have blood or gore. The only difference is that simplified non-games was the path they took and so it gets more support from the fans than any route Nintendo didn't take. Zelda did not sell as expected in Japan. That doesn't sound like the big non-gaming group over there is interested in the old franchises. If the non-games are just a way to attract the new audience to eventually buy the gamer games then the plan is failing big time. Nintendo would never have to say anything about making their old franchises less intimidating if they were already suitable for the new audience.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 10:05:31 AM
EDIT: And maybe Nintendo constantly reiterating that they made the games more accessible is a way to alert that crowd that this is a game that will be enjoyable for them. As I said above, it doesn't seem like Nintendo has really made any big changes to either of the games, other than optimizing them for the platform they are featured on. Accessibility and ease of use is one of the ultimate achievements of a game. The easier a game is to experience the more fluid your experience with that game is.
Post by: Kairon on July 19, 2007, 10:50:31 AM
Anyways, I'm just jazzed that we don't have a Gamecube 2 on our hands!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 19, 2007, 10:53:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
What are we talking about again?
Anyways, I'm just jazzed that we don't have a Gamecube 2 on our hands!
I am sad that we don't have another Pong on our hands, Nintendo and everyone is ruining the essence of gaming!
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on July 19, 2007, 11:25:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I am sad that we don't have another Pong on our hands, Nintendo and everyone is ruining the essence of gaming!
Pong was a travesty designed to appeal to a non-gamers.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 19, 2007, 11:27:50 AM
If Nintendo is just talking about making the game simpler and the resulting games are as they would have been anyway then I don't have a problem. There's no way to prove that though. What you're talking about sounds like Nintendo using non-games to trick non-gamers into becoming gamers. I figure if Nintendo thought there games have always been accessible they would be mentioning how Mario Kart continues to be accessible since it was already instead of it becoming more accessible. To say it the way they're saying it now is like putting down the old games as if they weren't okay to non-gamers but now these new ones are. Considering they have a whole VC of "old" games that they would like everyone to buy I think acting like the old games needed to be fixed is not the best thing to say if your goal is just to trick non-gamers.
"Comparing the Japanese market to the American market is a big mistake."
Tell that to Nintendo. ALL of this is based on Japan. The Wii may be selling here but gamer drift isn't the big problem it is in Japan. Hell everyone laughed at Iwata when he first talked about gamer drift because it didn't reflect the popularity of games here at all. Twilight Princess' sales in American suggest that tinkering for non-gamers is not necessary but the Japan sales say it is. Yet Nintendo is tinkering and it's not because of the encouraging American Zelda sales. Non-gaming is a response to the Japanese market so everything Nintendo does for that new audience is going to be based on Japan.
Post by: UERD on July 19, 2007, 12:09:14 PM
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My argument is that very little of what Wii Fit is looks like a game.
Yeah, Brain Age didn't really look like a game either. What were we supposed to expect- shooting aliens on a distant planet while being yelled at by the disembodied head of a famous Japanese neuroscientist? Oh joy! Math problems! Not everything in Brain Age is what we'd perceive as 'fun'.
How many copies did Brain Age sell, again? People don't buy these things because they want engrossing, billion-polygon immersive gameplay experiences. Instead, all it really takes is for the game to be at least a bit more interesting than the alternative (doing a sheet of math problems, pushups in your bedroom, et al) for it to sell. People like having their progress tracked and displayed for them to see. It's common sense that the fat guy who goes on an exercise/diet regiment and sees he's losing a pound every week or so is more motivated to continue than the guy who does the same without a scale and is wondering is it really worth it all? Ultimately, that, and the interactivity, are what really make the difference.
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Nintendo never learned how to compete in the old market.
The old market was not worth the effort. People wouldn't fully accept Nintendo games when they were innovative. They'd claim that Nintendo does no-imagination rehashes, and then happily snap up the latest generic FPS or sports game. What happened to all the unique games on XBox 360? How well did they sell? Nintendo had fundamental issues with the so-called self-identified gamer market, and they weren't magically going to go away 'if only Nintendo put in more effort'. Third-party relationships, public perception, the emergence of disruptive franchises like Halo, internal company culture...all these things make long-term planning a exercise in futility at best.
Nintendo could have taken the painstaking old road. Here's what would have had to happen.
- Nintendo keeps up in terms of hardware capabilities for the next ten years or so.
- They repair relationships with important third parties and get games like GTA and Final Fantasy.
- They have to get the public to accept that they are 'cool', even while their two established competitors throw more and more mud at them.
- They have to work on first-party games more 'in-line' with the majority perspective without losing their existing fans.
- They have to hope that some new innovation or game doesn't run away with the market and deal them a KO before their plans go through.
All while staying in 3rd, or at best 2nd place for a long while. Does it really make sense? When compared to the risk that people will lose interest in the Wii en masse, Nintendo really did make the better decision.
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I figure if Nintendo thought there games have always been accessible they would be mentioning how Mario Kart continues to be accessible since it was already instead of it becoming more accessible. To say it the way they're saying it now is like putting down the old games as if they weren't okay to non-gamers but now these new ones are. Considering they have a whole VC of "old" games that they would like everyone to buy I think acting like the old games needed to be fixed is not the best thing to say if your goal is just to trick non-gamers.
There are different levels of accessibility. It's not like a game can only be 'accessible' or 'non-accessible'. Mario Kart is more accessible than, say, Halo, (at least in terms of the learning curve) but it is not the be-all, end-all of accessibility. Nintendo understands that the interface is not an end in and of itself, but rather a means for the console's software to understand what the player's desires are. And the more we can cut out the middleman, the closer we are to that goal. Dedicated buttons are easier to understand than a keyboard, and motion controls are easier to understand than dedicated buttons. Maybe one day we'll have direct brain control, but even if that happens the Remote is still much closer to that end of the abstraction spectrum than the standard controller.
And quite frankly, the VC is targeted towards a completely different market than the non-gamer. Gamers are the ones who have experience playing the old VC games, they are the ones buying them, and they are the ones who would be complaining if anything were to be changed. I can't disagree with the assertion that Nintendo wants everyone to buy their VC games, but then again they'd probably be even happier if everyone just gave them cash without them having to produce anything. They know that the VC's primary market is more 'experienced' gamers and they've positioned it that way.
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 19, 2007, 03:06:14 PM
Post by: Mashiro on July 20, 2007, 02:55:28 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 20, 2007, 05:37:32 AM
The problem with the NEW minE3 is that now all the shows are too close together.
It was better when minE3 took place in the beginning of May, cause Developers could show what they had since they had months before they would have to show it again. Now you have minE3 in July, Leipzig in Aug., TGS is Sept. & games start releasing in Oct.. There is just no time to get a playable build going, get feed back, fix the issues, and then have a pre-release playbale build shown again near the end of the year. There was also no reason to go all out at the press conferences, cause... well you have another show coming up next month and you can always show more there, no need to keep people talking about you all summer since its almost over.
Someone should start a "No more minE3, bring back E3!!" campaign.
Ok, carry on....
Post by: Mashiro on July 20, 2007, 05:41:27 AM
Hopefully E3 gets moved back to May and to one location (LA convention center or w/e it used to be).
Post by: IceCold on July 20, 2007, 04:58:06 PM
Also, I'd buy Wii Taxes in a heartbeat!
Post by: SixthAngel on July 20, 2007, 05:45:53 PM
People are more upset that Nintendo is addressing the new market in their conference then what they are actually releasing and making.
Post by: Kairon on July 20, 2007, 06:55:42 PM
Post by: AzureNightmare on July 22, 2007, 05:58:55 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 22, 2007, 05:59:54 PM
Post by: AzureNightmare on July 22, 2007, 06:03:06 PM
Post by: Stogi on July 22, 2007, 08:08:12 PM
*Clicks back*
Post by: Shift Key on July 22, 2007, 09:16:01 PM
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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
*Yawn*
*Clicks back*
Anyone who makes stupid posts like this makes the list, for which a penalty will be administered at an appropriate time.
You have been warned.
Post by: Kairon on July 22, 2007, 09:17:37 PM
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Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
*Yawn*
*Clicks back*
It's a troll! ::grabs wii zapper::
Post by: Stogi on July 23, 2007, 12:54:22 AM
Stay on topic.
-The management
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 23, 2007, 07:17:43 AM
How about we not antagonize others?
-The Management.
Post by: Stogi on July 23, 2007, 08:58:10 AM
Something about TV and nothing about E3
