Community Forums => I'M BACK => Topic started by: Kairon on July 12, 2007, 10:22:47 PM
Title: Nintendo's Proto-feminist: Zelda
Post by: Kairon on July 12, 2007, 10:22:47 PM
Zelda being revealed in Windwaker is probably interpreted by many as a coming of age moment(girl growing into woman, assuming mantle of responsibility, yada yada yada), but instead is Nintendo making a statement against the restrictions and impositions of forced gender roles.
Before the reveal, Zelda's character is pro-active, a strong figure, independent and actually Link's guardian. She is an outdoorsy tomboi, wears pants, has a tan, commands respect from the men around her, and lives a carefree, idyllic, self-fulfilling life.
Immediately after the moment of the reveal, Zelda opens her eyes and is shocked to find herself drastically feminized. She wears a dress. She wears heavy make-up (especially considering she's a child of what? 12 years?). And to seal forever her fate as a disenfranchised barbie doll, as a damsel in perpetual distress, and, most importantly, as "a woman who knows her place," Zelda realizes that she's the ultimate little girl feminine fairy tale: a Princess. Zelda has just been Disneyfied.
Now, Princess Zelda is no longer pro-active. Now she no longer yields power. She cowers in the basement of the castle, hiding from the outside world she was once free to roam. Whereas before she could fend for herself, now she is completely reliant upon Link for protection, for support, yes, even for news of the outside world. She has become a prisoner of her new role as a female, as a princess, as a domestic ornament.
While Valiant's comic book adaptations of Zelda from the 80's and early 90's showed a modern woman who was intelligent, skilled, witty, and often-times the hero of the story (unlike the classically bumbling Link), and Miyamoto's Ocarina of Time Zelda was a shrewd, resourceful, cross-dressing proto-feminist, Aonouma has crafted a far more prescient and bleak existence for a character who has come to embody not just the Legend of Zelda, but indeed the Legend of All Free-Thinking Women.
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on July 13, 2007, 01:04:17 AM
Zelda fights alongside you against Ganondorf for that final battle, though.
And then Zelda seemingly gives her life for Midna in Twilight Princess for the good of Link's mission.
[/thread]
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Shecky on July 13, 2007, 01:06:08 AM
Did you even finish Wind Waker?
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: couchmonkey on July 13, 2007, 06:36:06 AM
I always felt the same way, actually. Realistically, though, it's just Nintendo setting her up for the typical kidnapping scenario. The Zelda series has some good writing, but the plots aren't exactly brilliant.
Edit: wait this is the Funhouse...the writing in Zelda is pure bullshot. You might as well read the Da Vinci Code or Hemmingway.
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: vudu on July 13, 2007, 06:43:33 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Kairon Now, Princess Zelda is no longer pro-active. Now she no longer yields power. She cowers in the basement of the castle, hiding from the outside world she was once free to roam. Whereas before she could fend for herself, now she is completely reliant upon Link for protection, for support, yes, even for news of the outside world. She has become a prisoner of her new role as a female, as a princess, as a domestic ornament.
Actually, no. She now realizes that the fate of the world relies on her. She no longer just has herself (and her crew) to worry about; she now must stay alive for the sake of the entire world. One could argue that after this "coming of age moment" Zelda no longer acts like a little girl, thinking only of herself. She is now an adult, protecting the entire world from the cruelty of Ganon.
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 13, 2007, 10:12:06 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Kairon Zelda being revealed in Windwaker is probably interpreted by many as a coming of age moment(girl growing into woman, assuming mantle of responsibility, yada yada yada), but instead is Nintendo making a statement against the restrictions and impositions of forced gender roles.
Before the reveal, Zelda's character is pro-active, a strong figure, independent and actually Link's guardian. She is an outdoorsy tomboi, wears pants, has a tan, commands respect from the men around her, and lives a carefree, idyllic, self-fulfilling life.
Immediately after the moment of the reveal, Zelda opens her eyes and is shocked to find herself drastically feminized. She wears a dress. She wears heavy make-up (especially considering she's a child of what? 12 years?). And to seal forever her fate as a disenfranchised barbie doll, as a damsel in perpetual distress, and, most importantly, as "a woman who knows her place," Zelda realizes that she's the ultimate little girl feminine fairy tale: a Princess. Zelda has just been Disneyfied.
Now, Princess Zelda is no longer pro-active. Now she no longer yields power. She cowers in the basement of the castle, hiding from the outside world she was once free to roam. Whereas before she could fend for herself, now she is completely reliant upon Link for protection, for support, yes, even for news of the outside world. She has become a prisoner of her new role as a female, as a princess, as a domestic ornament.
While Valiant's comic book adaptations of Zelda from the 80's and early 90's showed a modern woman who was intelligent, skilled, witty, and often-times the hero of the story (unlike the classically bumbling Link), and Miyamoto's Ocarina of Time Zelda was a shrewd, resourceful, cross-dressing proto-feminist, Aonouma has crafted a far more prescient and bleak existence for a character who has come to embody not just the Legend of Zelda, but indeed the Legend of All Free-Thinking Women.
You present a very flawed argument, Tetra becoming Zelda represented an ultimate sacrifice. As an independent woman, who took control of things at every turn, she faced the most excruciating and difficult task presented to her. This was to give up those freedoms in order to bring unity to the land of Hyrule. In fact the flood waters receding symbolized the order that she brought through the sacrifice she made. The waters represented the free spiritedness she once had and once that changed, she was left with a dull yet honorable existent, which in turn represent the land which loses to the pristine beauty of the water.
Aonuma was trying to show sacrifice through this epic event, even if it is to give up one's own identity. This is in bleak contrast to Miyamoto who wanted to show a sneaky and selfish Zelda, who wanted to be a free spirit but at the same time mask it. He was trying to show that a woman cannot be anything more than a princess, while at the same conflicting that with the selfish motif of Zelda who once again gets captured. He was obviously made a mistake in projecting conflicting messages and in turn turned the game into a vacuous, yet fun experience, which had no moral compass. He showed that women had their place but that women are also selfish and are free spirits, yet at the same time provided a sexist experience all wrapped in one. There was no in sacrifice, only Miyamoto sacrificing art for flash.
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: ShyGuy on July 13, 2007, 10:21:27 AM
I don't understand how this aligns with Miyamoto and his new wife-o-meter philosophy.
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 13, 2007, 11:15:41 AM
[Miyamoto] MY WIFE HIT ME IN THE HEAD WITH THE WOK THE OTHER DAY, AND SHE SEEMED TO ENJOY IT. I'M NOW CONSIDERING A COOKING ACTION GAME FOR Wii, STARRING KRYSTAL FROM STARFOX. MY WIFE IS MAKING ME GET THE BEER FROM THE FRIDGE ON MY OWN, FROM NOW ON.
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Athrun Zala on July 13, 2007, 03:22:02 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Professional 666 [Miyamoto] MY WIFE HIT ME IN THE HEAD WITH THE WOK THE OTHER DAY, AND SHE SEEMED TO ENJOY IT. I'M NOW CONSIDERING A COOKING ACTION GAME FOR Wii, STARRING KRYSTAL FROM STARFOX. MY WIFE IS MAKING ME GET THE BEER FROM THE FRIDGE ON MY OWN, FROM NOW ON.
MIYAMOTO LIKES FURRIES CONFIRMED
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Kairon on July 14, 2007, 08:45:15 PM
Quote Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
You present a very flawed argument, Tetra becoming Zelda represented an ultimate sacrifice. As an independent woman, who took control of things at every turn, she faced the most excruciating and difficult task presented to her. This was to give up those freedoms in order to bring unity to the land of Hyrule. In fact the flood waters receding symbolized the order that she brought through the sacrifice she made. The waters represented the free spiritedness she once had and once that changed, she was left with a dull yet honorable existent, which in turn represent the land which loses to the pristine beauty of the water.
Aonuma was trying to show sacrifice through this epic event, even if it is to give up one's own identity. This is in bleak contrast to Miyamoto who wanted to show a sneaky and selfish Zelda, who wanted to be a free spirit but at the same time mask it. He was trying to show that a woman cannot be anything more than a princess, while at the same conflicting that with the selfish motif of Zelda who once again gets captured. He was obviously made a mistake in projecting conflicting messages and in turn turned the game into a vacuous, yet fun experience, which had no moral compass. He showed that women had their place but that women are also selfish and are free spirits, yet at the same time provided a sexist experience all wrapped in one. There was no in sacrifice, only Miyamoto sacrificing art for flash.
Ah, but if the ultimate sacrifice a woman can make, especially a free-spirited one, is sacrificing her personal liberties for the good of society, that is EXACTLY the "prescient and bleak" existence that I believe was Aonouma's goal. Extrapolated to modern day, if our heroine's destiny is to give up her freedom and individuality for the good of a society that doesn't even know she exists, what does that mean for the women of the 21st century, right now going through their "Tetra" phase, but soon to hit child-birth, glass ceilings, and the ugly realization that, yes, they are women, and yes, society may pay their freedom lip service but their real place is in the dungeon of a castle, looking pretty and feeling bad about themselves until their "Link" drops in. I'm not disputing your analysis GP, I'm only carrying it further to its logical conclusion: the subtle socio-political tragedy that Aonouma has slipped into The Wind Waker without censorious detection.
As for your analysis of Zelda in Miyamoto's Ocarina of Time, I think you've chanced upon the monstrous truth but have veered away at the last second. Miyamoto actually fumbled with TWO archetypal depictions of women. One is, of course, the ultimate "angel in the room," the Princess. But the other is the shapeshifter, the quality that makes femmes in old film noir so fatale. These are the two "conflicting messages" to which you refer, and it's interesting because I really don't think that Miyamoto knows what he's doing with the characters. He thinks he's dealing with a good 'ol case of secret identity, but in reality his misapplication of femme fatale qualities to his strong Zelda character sets the stage for Aonouma to use the same narrative skeleton to convey a completely different message: in OoT, Zelda is only in hiding with her second identity, but in WW, Zelda's other identity is her real one, and her princess identity is the fake... and the one that she get's trapped in.
Ironically, it's Miyamoto's amateurish uses of gender-based archetypes that sets up the masterful values switch that Aonouma pulls off in The Wind Waker.
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on July 14, 2007, 08:56:11 PM
Do you guys remember what chad warden had to say about women?
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Kairon on July 14, 2007, 09:09:23 PM
No. What did Chad Warden have to say about women?
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 14, 2007, 09:13:13 PM
Quote Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R Do you guys remember what chad warden had to say about women?
That they run in fear from S-U-P-E-R?
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Deguello on July 16, 2007, 03:58:55 AM
"Zelda's other identity is her real one, and her princess identity is the fake... and the one that she get's trapped in."
Wrong. She comes prescribed with this role whether she knows it or not. Just because Tom didn't see Jerry shove the match between his toes doesn't mean his foot is not on fire.
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: vudu on July 16, 2007, 06:47:55 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Deguello Just because Tom didn't see Jerry shove the match between his toes doesn't mean his foot is not on fire.
Just chiming in here to point out that Tom can sprint off a cliff and continue to run in mid-air until he notices there's no ground beneath his feet.
Title: RE:Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Kairon on July 16, 2007, 05:51:36 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Deguello "Zelda's other identity is her real one, and her princess identity is the fake... and the one that she get's trapped in."
Wrong. She comes prescribed with this role whether she knows it or not. Just because Tom didn't see Jerry shove the match between his toes doesn't mean his foot is not on fire.
Ah, but your self-identity is a matter of perception. Being on fire is not. Vudu's example is telling. The entire hilarity of the situation where Tom runs over a cliff and continues running on air is that until his perception catches up he can continue running! This is a humorous affront to our understanding of the physical universe! However, identity is not a physical law, and the gravity of Zelda's situation is merely an abstract psychological construct that can only manifest when given sanction by perception.
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Deguello on July 16, 2007, 10:00:53 PM
I was not talking about cartoon physics or perception (I only used Tom and Jerry because they do that gag all the time.) Tom's foot is on fire whether he "realizes" it or not. Tetra is Zelda whether she knows it or not. Her mother was even Zelda (using it solely as a term for the lineage I guess) and she NEVER knew it.
It's funny that your intent, Kairon, is to point out women's stereotypes, when you yourself are probably more guilty of it than what you have discussed. Firstly, you are taking Tetra's change in behavior as a sign that her personality has changed, disregarding the context in which those behaviors occur. Look at the present company! Well, Link's there, and the King of Hyrule, thought to be a long lost kingdom, and hey, you are related to him and are legendary yourself. That's humbling even for Link who's standing next to her, and he's a main character! Secondly, you are painting a very bleak picture for female psychology by saying she "lightswitches" to a different role and a different set of behaviors, again taking the change in behavior as a sign of a change in self-identity. Thirdly, your pre-Zelda assessment of Tetra and your post-Zelda assessment are flawed for these reasons:
Pre-Zelda
Quote Before the reveal, Zelda's character is pro-active, a strong figure, independent and actually Link's guardian. She is an outdoorsy tomboi, wears pants, has a tan, commands respect from the men around her, and lives a carefree, idyllic, self-fulfilling life.
Post-Zelda
Quote Now, Princess Zelda is no longer pro-active. Now she no longer yields power. She cowers in the basement of the castle, hiding from the outside world she was once free to roam. Whereas before she could fend for herself, now she is completely reliant upon Link for protection, for support, yes, even for news of the outside world. She has become a prisoner of her new role as a female, as a princess, as a domestic ornament.
"Link's guardian" is a bit much. After she becomes Zelda, the men around her don't respect her? You didn't see the picture in Hyrule Castle with the Zelda Ancestor and all her crewmate lookalikes? You think her crew would reject her now? Are you assuming the behavior of others without evidence? What is this about no longer wielding power? What power did she wield before? Are you absolutely sure she wields no power in her current "role?" (This is a cue to beat the game if you haven't) She could fend for herself before? Are you joking? She's surrounded by six men AT ALL TIMES. six men who do all the work for her while she never leave the immediate proximity of her floating castle, the Pirate Ship. Did you ever question what exactly she was doing with her self-fulfilling, carefree, idyllic life? She is looking for that very basement. Go into her quarters and look on the walls. Other than a picture of the constellation of Orion, you'll find all this old research about Hyrule. She wants to find this place.
A big flaw in your argument Kairon is that you are simply de-contextualizing events and behaviors to make judgments about character. She would not stay in the basement if Ganon was not looking for her She would not need to rely on Link for protection if she could do anything about it. And you assume that she went through a major change. Other than her clothing, nothing has changed at all. I am seeing more of your dislikes and likes than I am seeing any change in her or any big message from Nintendo.
Title: RE: Nintendo's Proto-feminist Sacrificial Lamb: Zelda
Post by: Kairon on July 16, 2007, 10:17:12 PM
MOOOMMM!!! DEGUELLO'S NOT PLAYING FAIR!!!
/cries and runs away
Edit: What are you doing making sense in my Hulkmania thread? ::pout::
