Post by: Luigi Dude on June 17, 2007, 11:34:13 PM
If this doesn't prove to people that Microsoft is hell bent on monopolizing the videogame industry then nothing will. If they are willing to go to such lengths just to have the better version of a game then what's to stop them in the future from spending billions to just buy as many third parties as possible so their competitors have little to no support?
Microsoft strategy is all about them becoming number one, but since they were owned by the PS2 last gen and are having their asses handed to them by the Wii this gen, eventually Microsoft will just say "f*ck it" and resort to what they know best. Destroying their competition by buying out everything in sight.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on June 17, 2007, 11:45:55 PM
how is hemorraging money working out for you?
Post by: Shift Key on June 17, 2007, 11:48:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R
how is hemorraging money working out for you?
Finding new and innovative ways to empty their coffers hrhrhr
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2007, 02:39:47 AM
Microsoft is notorious for using their monopoly on Operating Systems to wipe out competition in other markets. For example, they bundled IE with Windows 98 which destroyed Netscape (technically Netscape lives on as part of AOL, but that is in name only), and then they bundled Windows Media Player which hurt Realplayer and others a lot (but to be fair I think Realplayer sucks anyway). Then you got them trying to get WMA to replace MP3 as the new standard and so on and so on...
Not that Sony is that much different, you know. I don't have much tolerance for the business practices of either companies.... maybe Nintendo would do the same if they could, but Nintendo has only ever stuck to Video Games and isn't reaching their tentacles into everything trying to take it all over. Long live Nintendo!
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 18, 2007, 02:47:38 AM
As for spending Billions for more development houses I think they learned their lesson with Rare, and Nintendo proved to be right with making partnerships with the companies instead. In fact, I think that is basically what is going on with the exclusive content Microsoft is buying.
Personally, this type of thing doesn't bother me, and I am actually impressed that Microsoft is going to such great competitive lengths this generation. Hopefully it will pay off for them, and they will do well this generation. READ: Better than last generation and perhaps make some profit.
I don't care who wins the overall console war this generation as long as Nintendo makes tons of money and can stick around to another generation, and that Sony completely fails and is humbled back to its place of respecting the gamer again.
Post by: couchmonkey on June 18, 2007, 04:48:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost
Not that Sony is that much different, you know. I don't have much tolerance for the business practices of either companies.... maybe Nintendo would do the same if they could, but Nintendo has only ever stuck to Video Games and isn't reaching their tentacles into everything trying to take it all over. Long live Nintendo!
Actually, Nintendo was like this back in the 80s. It charged high liscencing fees, restricted the number of games third parties could release, censored everything and most notoriously had a rule that no game released on the NES could be ported to another system for at least 2 years.
Nintendo's treatment of third parties is cited by some as one reason why Playstation did so well: Sony did everything it could to woo third parties, while Nintendo used expensive cartridges, continued to censor (albeit to a pretty small degree) and still charged higher liscensing fees. Nowdays it looks like Sony has become the tougher company to deal with, I guess that's what a decade at the top does to you.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 18, 2007, 05:06:04 AM
Post by: denjet78 on June 18, 2007, 07:16:57 AM
And for a game that's multiplatform? MS has totally lost it.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 18, 2007, 07:58:35 AM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2007, 08:07:01 AM
Edit: But yeah, for that amount of money the game itself should have been made exclusive to the 360.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 18, 2007, 08:34:30 AM
But seriously, can it, in any way, cost 25 mil to produce episodic content? Really?
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2007, 09:17:22 AM
That's only $4 million more than the ONLY profitable Xbox quarter MS ever had. $54 million Q4 2004, requiring Halo 2 to sell like 3-5 million copies. $50 million pissed away on exclusive Downloadable content for like 20% of their users who may or may not even care.
That is just stupid.
Post by: ShyGuy on June 18, 2007, 09:26:19 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 18, 2007, 09:28:46 AM
Post by: Kairon on June 18, 2007, 09:36:30 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on June 18, 2007, 10:09:20 AM
Anyway, back on topic: this deal seems like a waste of money. For one thing, $50 million must cover the entire development and marketing cost for the game, and then some. For another thing, how many people are going to know about this when they decide which console to purchase GTA on? If MS' marketing does it's job properly, lots, but seriously, it's a tough selling point...."In 6 months, there will be new levels!"
It's still an admirable move, but REALLY pricey, and I'd say killing GTA exclusivity for Sony was a much bigger win. I look forward to seeing how the GTA thing plays out.
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 18, 2007, 10:10:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
As for spending Billions for more development houses I think they learned their lesson with Rare, and Nintendo proved to be right with making partnerships with the companies instead. In fact, I think that is basically what is going on with the exclusive content Microsoft is buying.
Time has shown that, when a company is purchased, all that happens is the top executives and talent that made the company so great leave and you're left with an empty, smoking shell which bears resemblance to the former greatness of the company in name only.
That is, unless you strike up an arrangement with the visionaries beforehand and ensure that they're on the same page as you, which MS has never done, to my knowledge.
As for MS, if they ever dominate the gaming industry, then gaming is truly dead. MS is all about assimilating a market and crushing all of things that make it great clean out of it (like innovation and fun).
Their approach to the OS market shows that they couldn't give two sh*ts. Rather than making vista a good OS with excellent security and low resource demand, they made it the biggest pile of crap imaginable and then go about forcing people to upgrade by making future software releases vista-only.
Post by: Kairon on June 18, 2007, 10:17:47 AM
Post by: Kairon on June 18, 2007, 11:04:17 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 18, 2007, 11:21:25 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 18, 2007, 11:44:58 AM
MS sucks but remember that all three console makers are deep down completely dicks and that includes Nintendo. We don't want any of them to get too powerful because all three have a history of f*cking everyone they can once they think they can get away with it.
And MS can never buy the game industry because it's entertainment and thus unessential. Unessential industries can't have monopolies because no one is forced to use them. If the product sucks people just get bored and leave. For gamers that sucks because the whole industry could be killed off but an era of MS or nobody could never exist. A monopoly in an entertainment industry would require one to have a monopoly on ALL entertainment and somehow be able to prevent people from creating their own fun.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on June 18, 2007, 12:05:11 PM
I wonder what would happen then, though. Would open-source games get really popular? That open-source RTS TA Spring is getting pretty big.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 18, 2007, 12:15:20 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on June 18, 2007, 12:29:43 PM
NEVAH FOGHAT
Post by: King of Twitch on June 18, 2007, 12:48:35 PM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2007, 01:19:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MJRx9000
If MS were Nintendo, they'd be trying to get a GTA1 remake with exclusive content, and it would take two years to develop and just before release Rockstar would announce the "exclusive" content would go multiplatform.
Fixed.
Post by: Deguello on June 18, 2007, 02:24:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
MS sucks but remember that all three console makers are deep down completely dicks and that includes Nintendo. We don't want any of them to get too powerful because all three have a history of f*cking everyone they can once they think they can get away with it.
Ian, I hate to do this, to derail the thread, but you've made a logical mobius strip here. What're you saying here? It's good that Nintendo screws up, because it keeps balance? So then why do you bitch when that happens? Are you trying to equivocate what MS is doing now to what Nintendo did 20 years ago? I mean if I were to break into your house and steal your stuff, would that be okay because 14 years ago, you kicked a dog? Does that make sense to you? Are you claiming that competition and market balance stops market abuse? There's competition now, and market balance too, and hey, look, market abuse. I mean what're you saying here?
And, allow me to formally, logically argue a disturbing truth.
We all know you are a fan of Nintendo circa 1995, is "the good ol' days of Yoshi's Island and third parties." (Let this be statement A: Ian is a fan of Nintendo during this time period.)
We also know that period was when Nintendo was being less than welcoming to third parties and the "screwups" you talk about. (Statement B: This time period is Nintendo's "screwup" period.)
You believe that Nintendo's screwups are a good thing, because they ensure Nintendo does not get too powerful. (Statement C: Screwups are a good thing.)
If you are a fan of a A -> Then you are a fan of B (because A :: B)
If you are a Fan of B -> Then you are a fan of C.
Therefore, Through the law of Hypothetical Syllogism, If you are a fan of A -> You are a fan of C
In other words, you are a fan of Nintendo's screwups. Enjoy!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 18, 2007, 02:35:05 PM
I would like to think Nintendo's slate is clean now, and hopefully they've learned their lesson and will never repeat those mistakes again.
Post by: Adrock on June 18, 2007, 07:57:32 PM
And the funniest part about this is that if Take Two really does plan to make "working with Nintendo a priority" they'll be spending some of that $50 million making games for Wii. In a way, Nintendo could potentially come out on top in this deal by doing absolutely nothing and having absolutely no involvement in it.
Post by: denjet78 on June 18, 2007, 09:19:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
I have to hand it to Take-Two. They just got away with a major payday for what will amount to significantly less work than creating an entirely new game.
And the funniest part about this is that if Take Two really does plan to make "working with Nintendo a priority" they'll be spending some of that $50 million making games for Wii. In a way, Nintendo could potentially come out on top in this deal by doing absolutely nothing and having absolutely no involvement in it.
That would be hilarious... But this still sets and incredibly bad precedent. If it ever does come down to a money war, there is absolutely no way in hell Nintendo could ever compete. What's worse is now that this deal is out there and known how will other developers react? Are we about to see a generation where developers withhold game content in order to auction it off to the highest bidder?
Considering the obscene amount of money involved in this deal I wouldn't doubt other developers taking the stance that big name games deserve a certain down payment from console makers.
This industry is about to get really, really ugly.
Post by: SixthAngel on June 18, 2007, 11:17:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: denjet78Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
I have to hand it to Take-Two. They just got away with a major payday for what will amount to significantly less work than creating an entirely new game.
And the funniest part about this is that if Take Two really does plan to make "working with Nintendo a priority" they'll be spending some of that $50 million making games for Wii. In a way, Nintendo could potentially come out on top in this deal by doing absolutely nothing and having absolutely no involvement in it.
That would be hilarious... But this still sets and incredibly bad precedent. If it ever does come down to a money war, there is absolutely no way in hell Nintendo could ever compete. What's worse is now that this deal is out there and known how will other developers react? Are we about to see a generation where developers withhold game content in order to auction it off to the highest bidder?
Considering the obscene amount of money involved in this deal I wouldn't doubt other developers taking the stance that big name games deserve a certain down payment from console makers.
This industry is about to get really, really ugly.
Companies can only throw out so many money hats, even ms. They are already bleeding money and paying third parties like this simply won't get them into the profitability they finally hope to enter and have to at some point.
Doesn't anyone else see this as ms setting an awful precedent for themselves. The next time they want to throw money at a developer for exclusiveness or more downloaded content of a big game they will remember how far ms is willing to go. If it takes this much money to simply get extra levels imagine how much companies will charge them for full exclusiveness. This makes me think that ms is paying a ridiculous amount of money for the few jrpgs and japanese exclusives they are getting. These aren't just exclusive, but exclusive on a system where they are destined to fail. Some even have high profile names involved that have to be rolling in hats of money. They are probably bleeding more money then we ever thought and are actually hiding some of it well.
Post by: Shecky on June 19, 2007, 12:50:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
::shakes head in disgust:: You guys sound like whiney babies in regards to MS. It seems whenever a company gets big everyone hates them, but whatever, I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.
Curious... how many operating systems have you actively tried?
Post by: Ceric on June 19, 2007, 04:25:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
::shakes head in disgust:: You guys sound like whiney babies in regards to MS. It seems whenever a company gets big everyone hates them, but whatever, I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.
I love you.
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I've been battling Microsoft since the OS/2 wars.
NEVAH FOGHAT
Yeah that was sort of wrong.
Shecky: Before you ask, I'm going to count the four major revisions of windows (3.x,9X,NT,Vista), so there is 4, can I count DOS? That makes 5, are we doing Linux by Distro or just Linux and are we separating variations like BSD and OSX? Lets assume yes. Thats another 3 there so we are up to 8. BeOS, 9. Now I want to try Plan9, the IBM OS which for the life of me I can't think of its name, and I haven't used Solaris enough to count. Also the OS that Tandy's use to run on, 10. Mac Classic, 11. I think that would be it. So there 11 Operating systems. Out of those my favorites so far are Vista and Linux. Though I may enjoy a well setup Linux box I'm not to big into the setup part and like.
Edit: Actually are we counting the Server OS's seperately? If that they case then add another 1 for Server 2003 and variations so that make 12. (Server 2003 SBS, Regular, and Embedded.)
Post by: ShyGuy on June 19, 2007, 04:52:50 AM
Tandy's ran on DOS. Deskmate was a GUI.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 19, 2007, 05:09:16 AM
I don't think their screwups are a good thing. I like them the most of the three console makers so I want them to do the best. But I think it's good that there is some parity. I like SNES Nintendo the best and the 16 bit era was when the competition was the closest. As a result Sega and Nintendo kept each other on their toes and everyone benefited regardless of what console they owned. This is preferable to pretty much every other generation where one console maker dominated and unless you owned that console your options were very limited. Ninendo as number one with a strong competitor keeping them from abusing their power is good. Nintendo in last place where literally a month can go by with no new games released at all is bad. And the parity doesn't have to come from Nintendo screwing up. I prefer it if they and their top competitor get where they are by being competent instead of just screwing up less than the other guy.
Look at it like sports. Do I want my team to have a winning record, consistently make the playoffs and win some championships? Yes. Do I want them to be so dominant that they sign all the good players in the league so that every game is a boring squash while at the same time jacking up the price for tickets, blacking out home games that don't sell out and moving half of their season to PPV? No.
Post by: Ceric on June 19, 2007, 05:12:53 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 19, 2007, 05:48:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
::shakes head in disgust:: You guys sound like whiney babies in regards to MS. It seems whenever a company gets big everyone hates them, but whatever, I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.
Yes, Vista is so solid that MS is doing people a favor by forcing them to use it.
Post by: oohhboy on June 19, 2007, 06:28:32 AM
Spending 50 Million on content maybe "impressive" and all hardcore and all. But seriously, there are so many better ways to spend that same money to maximize a lot more returns. This is so stupid, it barely makes any sense. There as to be some hidden agenda, something else that money to paying for as on face value, this is incredibly shallow thinking.
If MS became the dominating force in game, I would rather go out and work than game. Go get really fit or something.
Mac classic is just MacOS X.X.X. Early 90's means MacOS 6/7. Later came 8 and 9. 8 was a real dog, it blew chunks. MacOS X is another story. I am on a year 2000 machine (It probably older since I did get it second hand) at 450Mhz and it still runs great. There is a slight speed hit from 9.x.x. to X, but it works out to only about 10% at most, but I get back a lot more in return. The thing is solid as a rock.
Vista does have that 3D sliding window thing, but I got exposé. I am function key away from seeing all windows or the desktop and it doesn't require DX10 stuff.
Post by: Ceric on June 19, 2007, 06:46:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
::shakes head in disgust:: You guys sound like whiney babies in regards to MS. It seems whenever a company gets big everyone hates them, but whatever, I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.
Yes, Vista is so solid that MS is doing people a favor by forcing them to use it.
Last I checked I could still get XP and 2000 for that matter. Also if you happen to know someone who has an MSDN membership you can easily get every version from 95 to Vista 64 with the Itanium and weirder variations. Lets face it 4 years from know I'm fairly sure Apple would have dropped full support for 10.4. Thats just how software is. It doesn't make fiscal sense to support everything forever.
Anyway, *waves hands*, 50 Million may seem like a rip off but its a marketing tactic that has been going on for a long time. Sort of like how Toy'R'Us always seems to get a special version of x toy, like the Super Princess Peach pink Wiimote gloves.
Also thanks oohhboy. My memory is not what it should be.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 19, 2007, 07:10:26 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 19, 2007, 07:15:45 AM
``Window Key + D`` does the trick just fine.
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 19, 2007, 07:19:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Last I checked I could still get XP and 2000 for that matter. Also if you happen to know someone who has an MSDN membership you can easily get every version from 95 to Vista 64 with the Itanium and weirder variations. Lets face it 4 years from know I'm fairly sure Apple would have dropped full support for 10.4. Thats just how software is. It doesn't make fiscal sense to support everything forever.
I'm not talking about "supporting everything forever", though the G4 I have running OS 10.3 still works just fine years later on the precipice of 10.5.
I'm talking about pushing their games out for DirectX10 when there's no logical reason to do so, from the standpoint of a developer or a consumer. Next comes the new MS office which won't support XP anymore.
Vista is a bloated, memory-sucking resource hog, designed to look as much like OSX as possible, just without the stability or security.
Post by: denjet78 on June 19, 2007, 07:24:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Companies can only throw out so many money hats, even ms. They are already bleeding money and paying third parties like this simply won't get them into the profitability they finally hope to enter and have to at some point.
Considering MS has been bleeding money for... what's it been 6, 7 years now and that hasn't slowed them one bit I don't think we've hit anywhere near the bottom of the money hat barrel for them.
I think MS is terrified that Sony is going to get a big enough foothold in the living room that they're going to end up relegated to a nitch high tech market. I'm pretty sure they'd do anything in order to keep that from happening, even if they have to nearly destroy themselves in the process.
They blew something like 5 or 6 BILLION just to edge out Nintendo last generation and then still came back for more. They're in this for the hard fight no matter how much it costs them.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 19, 2007, 07:26:39 AM
They're a fine melting pot of embarrassment.
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 19, 2007, 07:36:46 AM
After all, the Xbox project has done nothing but cost them piles of money. Why would they stick with it if they had no competition to fear?
Post by: Ceric on June 19, 2007, 07:43:22 AM
Post by: denjet78 on June 19, 2007, 07:46:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PartyBear
The real story isn't quite as stupid-sounding. This money is an advance payment. It comes out of the revenue Take-Two would normally expect to get from sales of the downloadable content. It's still an oversized moneyhat, but it's not as if Microsoft doesn't expect to get the money back at all.
Actually, that article makes it sound even worse.
Comparing it to a publishing advance it beyond idiotic. No publisher in the world would give a writer that size of an advance unless they were absolutely certain that they were going to be making that money back a hundred fold. And what's worse is that this content won't even be available to half their existing market.
Post by: couchmonkey on June 19, 2007, 08:23:06 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 19, 2007, 09:06:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric How dare they make me upgrade to play Elebits, I should be able to play it on my Gamecube.
Except that Elebits is on the Wii because it could not be done with standard GC technology: the Wiimote was necessary for the premise of the game to work.
Console manufacturers do everything they can to attempt to justify their next round of upgrades. Sony and MS both rant about how the new graphical prowess allows them to have bigger, more epic games with more effects and better AI, hence at least making an argument for upgrading. Nintendo has, obviously, the most compelling argument of all.
There is no compelling, functional reason to adopt Vista, and the PC community has seen a wide-scale outcry stating just that. It uses more resources and answers no problems with the current OS issues, but none of that will stop MS from standardizing it by literally forcing people to adopt it through making office and other key apps Vista-only.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 19, 2007, 09:14:12 AM
He didn't want to be outdone by Howard Hughes as the most eccentric billionaire funding an enormous boondoggle.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on June 19, 2007, 09:15:25 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 19, 2007, 09:32:22 AM
That makes me wonder who would be making consoles if the giants pulled out. I figure if Sony and MS left it would be because gaming no longer attracted enough mainstream revenue for them to bother. The reason they're there in the first place is because they seeing gaming as an opportunity. So if they left and assuming the market is profitable enough that game-specific Nintendo was still making consoles would other game companies step up and make their own consoles? Would Sega be back or what someone like Capcom or Konami make their own hardware? It's interesting to think about.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 19, 2007, 09:32:31 AM
Post by: Kairon on June 19, 2007, 09:35:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I think they've said that, if Sony withdrew from the market, they would too.
That's like Palpatine saying he'd step down after they won the Clone Wars.
Post by: Ceric on June 19, 2007, 10:01:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: Ceric How dare they make me upgrade to play Elebits, I should be able to play it on my Gamecube.
There is no compelling, functional reason to adopt Vista, and the PC community has seen a wide-scale outcry stating just that. It uses more resources and answers no problems with the current OS issues, but none of that will stop MS from standardizing it by literally forcing people to adopt it through making office and other key apps Vista-only.
Dude,
Quote
Office 2007 Requirements
Computer and processor 500 megahertz (MHz) processor or higher 1
Memory 256 megabyte (MB) RAM or higher1, 2
Hard disk 3 gigabyte (GB); a portion of this disk space will be freed after installation if the original download package is removed from the hard drive.
Drive CD-ROM or DVD drive
Display 1024x768 or higher resolution monitor
Operating system Microsoft Windows XP with Service Pack (SP) 2, Windows Server 2003 with SP1, or later operating system3
Those are the requirements for the largest most intensive version. I don't see Vista in there. Not to mention that the OSX version is due to be released this year I beleive. It will take advantage of the new features in Leopard. Also their is a lot in Vista that people clamorred for and when they got it the side that was happy with how things were got vocal. I mean Microsoft is having a hard time getting people to have DVD drives. DVD Drives... Come on...
In the end computers love standards. In closed system you can really squeeze a lot out, see NeoGeo for a good example. Unfortunately that also stifles creativity and profits. Back to Darned if you do Darned if you don't in the end.
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 19, 2007, 10:01:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon That's like Palpatine saying he'd step down after they won the Clone Wars.
MS said that they'd enter the market if Sony attempted to take over the "living room" area because MS wanted a piece of that, too.
Both Sony and MS are tolerating the loss of money right now because the eyes on the prize see a living room situation where families sit down and buy their content off of MS/Sony media services, downloaded right to their media box, and both MS and Sony want to be that box (as does Apple).
Neither company sees gaming as a profitable venture, but they both see gaming as a trojan horse to deliver downloadable media to living rooms everywhere and for that reason, they're both willing to endure the losses that come with it.
It's pretty ironic, considering that Nintendo is the one who actually landed the first REAL "mainstream" console with the Wii.
Selling games and making $5-10 off a licensing fee every sale is a pittance, not only compared to the costs of operation for Sony/MS, but also the amount they COULD be making on "owning" the living room.
So yeah, if Sony pulls out of the gaming market and focuses on a different path into the living room, you can probably expect MS to do the same.
Neither of these companies is here for games, what with Sony's declaration of "The PS3 can sell without games" and MS's goal of being the media box.
All that said, the amount of irony in Nintendo being the winner AND having the most mainstream appeal this gen is unbelievable...
Post by: Ceric on June 19, 2007, 10:06:26 AM
Post by: UERD on June 19, 2007, 11:02:54 AM
Quote
<comic>
I think 'lemon-flavored dead fetus souls' would be more accurate.
Quote
MS said that they'd enter the market if Sony attempted to take over the "living room" area because MS wanted a piece of that, too.
Both Sony and MS are tolerating the loss of money right now because the eyes on the prize see a living room situation where families sit down and buy their content off of MS/Sony media services, downloaded right to their media box, and both MS and Sony want to be that box (as does Apple).
Neither company sees gaming as a profitable venture, but they both see gaming as a trojan horse to deliver downloadable media to living rooms everywhere and for that reason, they're both willing to endure the losses that come with it.
It's pretty ironic, considering that Nintendo is the one who actually landed the first REAL "mainstream" console with the Wii.
Selling games and making $5-10 off a licensing fee every sale is a pittance, not only compared to the costs of operation for Sony/MS, but also the amount they COULD be making on "owning" the living room.
So yeah, if Sony pulls out of the gaming market and focuses on a different path into the living room, you can probably expect MS to do the same.
Neither of these companies is here for games, what with Sony's declaration of "The PS3 can sell without games" and MS's goal of being the media box.
All that said, the amount of irony in Nintendo being the winner AND having the most mainstream appeal this gen is unbelievable...
I remember people were talking about a possible iTunes channel when the Wii first came out. That being said, I seriously doubt that either MS/Sony will ever be able to 'dominate' the living-room captive-audience market. I don't think either company could have done it even if their respective console had won this generation by a landslide.
Think about it. MS/Sony want you to buy and make their consoles the center of your entertainment life so that eventually they can sell you other things (computers, TVs, media players) that are overpriced but which your 'entertainment hub' is locked into. But that's never going to work. A person might have a Sony TV, a computer running Microsoft Vista, an iPod for listening to music, a Wii gaming system, a HD-DVD player, etc. Neither company is ever going to be able to make a home media hub so compelling that someone will be willing to forgo market choice for compatibility. Period.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 19, 2007, 12:08:50 PM
At home I still use Office 97. What useful new features have MS introduced to Office in the last ten years? At work all I ever notice in new versions of Office is more annoying autoformating bullsh!t that just makes things more difficult. Needing Windows Vista to run Office Vista is only an issue if you need Office Vista which I'll bet you don't. Eventually somebody is going to make a program you need or want that requires Vista but no one should feel compelled to update before then.
I've had my PC for a few years now and I still haven't reached that point where I feel the need to get a new machine. For all my previous PCs I wanted a new one six months after I got it. I think we're slowly plateauing. Businesses often benefit from better hardware but I don't need better hardware to word process, surf the web and listen to MP3s. Though if I played PC games things would be different.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 19, 2007, 12:13:01 PM
Post by: Shift Key on June 19, 2007, 03:58:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.
I find Vista to be an immature product (tried it on four separate systems now - old and new, laptop and desktop - and they've all had problems. I haven't recommended it to anyone until they:
1. Improve driver support significantly
2. Implement a security design that actually works - popup alerts are not the way to do this.
3. Give the option to return to XP-style interface and menu and avoid the requirement - this was available in XP.
4. Simplify things - seven versions of Vista is not the way to do this.
Quote
Out of those my favorites so far are Vista and Linux. Though I may enjoy a well setup Linux box I'm not to big into the setup part and like.
I don't see how this is different to setting up a Windows box - only you configure a few text files instead of GUI menus. Installing new software and updating is much more straightforward for your average modern Linux distro then it is with Windows.
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Last I checked I could still get XP and 2000 for that matter.
Not in Australia - all new systems now come bundled with some sort of Vista - generally Home Basic.
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I am function key away from seeing all windows or the desktop and it doesn't require DX10 stuff.
Guess what? I don't even need to click a function key to view all my windows. Under Beryl + KDE, moving my mouse to the top right corner of the screen does the same thing.
Quote
Vista is a bloated, memory-sucking resource hog, designed to look as much like OSX as possible, just without the stability or security.
A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.
Ah, its always good to start the day with a good thread derail.
Post by: Ceric on June 19, 2007, 04:34:15 PM
The three systems I've ran it on. The 2 that were using Beta Versions: The one that was woefully under spec, it didn't have the specs to really run XP, run it ok with issues with the onboard sound. The one with the beta with the mostly right specs, Intel onboard graphics blah, did ok but we had some problems with the samba implementation in OSX being older then what is current for the project doing some weirdness with it. Now on the install that I have now which is using the Business release non-beta I have it dual booting with the older XP partition, software I don't have the reinstall for is on the other, and on that particular machine, which is over 3 years old, Vista runs better then the XP install. Personally I think they probably run about the same but the other has a little age on it. It has no Driver issues. At this point I probably wouldn't recommend Vista or any truly new OS at this stage of its life. On the flipside if it happens to be on your machine when you get it I wouldn't tell you to put XP or Linux on it either. I think its at that point by the end of the year it should mature up enough to move out of early adopters and tech heads and into competent user territory.
On my experience with Linux, historically speaking, while the actual setup part is just as easy. I have a terrible terrible time with driver support for Linux. I seem to always have that odd video card that doesn't work quite right or something else. If I want a straight command line box I'm good to go. Anything with a Gui something always seems to happen. Updating and the like can be just as simple considering the distro.
I also like Multiple Desktop in KDE and Gnome. Windows has a plugin from Microsoft for this and its ok. Also like the full customization of the mentioned 2.
Here in the States most manufacturers still give you the choice of XP. Though when Microsoft releases the newest version of Server the paranoid Admin, you can't be too paranoid as an admin, we'll see a benefit from a full Vista desktop line. (Mainly all communication between the two use stronger encryption among other security features that aren't part of XP.) Though that will be a mute point unless third parties start making there software fully compatible w/out using the compatibility modes.
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A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.
So so true. Chair to Keyboard Errors...
Earlier We were talking about things that get supported for to long.... Heres one. I wish people would stop using VB6 and move on... VB.Net is really not that terribly different to program in... Though it now seems they have the 5 year life of Vista to keep using it.
After rereading this. To tell you truth I could probably be just as happy as a full time Linux guy if I had more patience.
Post by: Shecky on June 19, 2007, 04:40:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
::shakes head in disgust:: You guys sound like whiney babies in regards to MS. It seems whenever a company gets big everyone hates them, but whatever, I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.
Yes, Vista is so solid that MS is doing people a favor by forcing them to use it.
Indeed...
Microsoft waves hand, "Vista has nothing to do with DRM, it is great, you will install it"
Post by: Shecky on June 19, 2007, 04:44:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Office 2007 Requirements
Computer and processor 500 megahertz (MHz) processor or higher 1
Memory 256 megabyte (MB) RAM or higher1, 2
Hard disk 3 gigabyte (GB); a portion of this disk space will be freed after installation if the original download package is removed from the hard drive.
Drive CD-ROM or DVD drive
Display 1024x768 or higher resolution monitor
Operating system Microsoft Windows XP with Service Pack (SP) 2, Windows Server 2003 with SP1, or later operating system3
Those are the requirements for the largest most bloated version. I don't see Vista in there. Not to mention that the OSX version is due to be released this year I beleive. It will take advantage of the new features in Leopard. Also their is a lot in Vista that people clamorred for and when they got it the side that was happy with how things were got vocal. I mean Microsoft is having a hard time getting people to have DVD drives. DVD Drives... Come on...
In the end computers love standards. In closed system you can really squeeze a lot out, see NeoGeo for a good example. Unfortunately that also stifles creativity and profits. Back to Darned if you do Darned if you don't in the end.
Fix'd
Oh, and good luck running Windows at those requirements.... are those numbers additions to Windows' requirements? Is that in the fine print?
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 19, 2007, 04:56:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shift Key A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.
Eh...
"Spyware" acquired its nomenclature because users typically have no clue it's there, nor that they're acquiring it.
Post by: Shecky on June 19, 2007, 04:57:58 PM
Quote
A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.
Umm, ok... it's true that if your stupid with security then your asking for trouble, but proper OS security will protect the system from stupid users (and from "malware")
Post by: Shift Key on June 19, 2007, 05:38:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
"Spyware" acquired its nomenclature because users typically have no clue it's there, nor that they're acquiring it.
What does that have to do with anything? Call it what you will, its still a problem.
Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky
Umm, ok... it's true that if your stupid with security then your asking for trouble, but proper OS security will protect the system from stupid users (and from "malware")
No it won't. For example: Unix and Linux security models were based around the concept of a "root" user having access to all data on a computer, and then having other users with more restricted access. This model breaks down when a user decides to do everything as the root user for convenience's sake and then runs malicious program X. If the user cannot differentiate between operations which require root access and programs that can be run just fine in a sandbox environment then they are just subverting the OS security model.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 19, 2007, 10:20:06 PM
Post by: oohhboy on June 19, 2007, 10:23:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shift KeyQuote
I am function key away from seeing all windows or the desktop and it doesn't require DX10 stuff.
Guess what? I don't even need to click a function key to view all my windows. Under Beryl + KDE, moving my mouse to the top right corner of the screen does the same thing.
Ah, its always good to start the day with a good thread derail.
I can do that too, but a choose not to turn that on. I like my corners free of stuff.
Post by: Shift Key on June 19, 2007, 10:30:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
All I can say is that I've had no problem keeping malicious stuff out with Norton 360 and various other software.
OH NO HORRIBLE NORTON MEMORIES FLOODING BACK! MAKE THE PAIN STOP!
Post by: Mashiro on June 20, 2007, 12:13:16 AM
Couldn't agree more Shecky.
I used to own Windows based computers and while I never had a problem with the OS my parents and sister would often do *something* that would compromise the computer. However, upon switching them to OS X they haven't had a single issue and i've been headache free =).
Post by: Shift Key on June 20, 2007, 12:42:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
However, upon switching them to OS X they haven't had a single issue and i've been headache free =).
Paging 18 Days to this thread for the standard "Macs are better than PCs" spiel. Paging 18 Days.
Post by: Shecky on June 20, 2007, 01:10:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shift KeyQuote
Originally posted by: Shecky
Umm, ok... it's true that if your stupid with security then your asking for trouble, but proper OS security will protect the system from stupid users (and from "malware")
No it won't. For example: Unix and Linux security models were based around the concept of a "root" user having access to all data on a computer, and then having other users with more restricted access. This model breaks down when a user decides to do everything as the root user for convenience's sake and then runs malicious program X. If the user cannot differentiate between operations which require root access and programs that can be run just fine in a sandbox environment then they are just subverting the OS security model.
Thanks, that's kind of my point... running as root is pretty high on the "asking for trouble" list. Why don't we just throw empty passwords to that list too? My point is that if I were running as a user in Windows, the machine is still at risk. (Heck the existance of an account called Guest, even if it's disabled is a security threat)
I can have a poorly written application, not malicious in nature, take down my computer... what's up with that?! Heck, their web browser (IE) can do all sorts of things to your computer...
We're talking about an OS that changed the blue screen of death to just reboot the computer instead.... come on! Why don't they just fix the core problem?... maybe it's because as an operating system Windows is fundamentally flawed.
Post by: Shecky on June 20, 2007, 01:13:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
All I can say is that I've had no problem keeping malicious stuff out with Norton 360 and various other software.
Heh, so you find Windows to be a solid operating system once enough bandaids are applied
Post by: Shift Key on June 20, 2007, 01:37:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky
Why don't they just fix the core problem?... maybe it's because as an operating system Windows is fundamentally flawed.
There are several reasons why I don't use Windows as my main OS these days. The security model is only one of these.
Windows was designed as a single-user OS, and it is this design that remains at the root of Vista (sure, it does support multiple users these days but NT was an extension of Windows 95). Until they fix this, they will continue to have problems.
PS: If you have admin rights on a Windows box then there's still a chance of doing damage. Windows file rights these days are a bit more fine-grained so it depends on the setup.
Reminds me of a funny story from recently. I was at work watching a colleague's demo of a remote logging program and he was making minor changes to it. But as he was running Vista it stopped him from making manual changes to the files within Program Files on the computer, even with Administrator rights. It seemed like Vista was being paranoid.
The only solution was to produce a new installation program, uninstall the old version and reinstall the new version. There was no other way around this (that we could figure out, the error messages didn't help).
Post by: Patchkid15 on June 20, 2007, 01:44:43 AM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 20, 2007, 03:38:57 AM
The only major advantage to Windows over Linux these days is that developers can design a game or a driver for Vista, and they can be confident it will work on all copies of Vista in existence, everywhere. Creating a driver or a game for Linux involves a lot more work to ensure it will work with the zillion distros out there..... and that's what is hurting Linux's growth.
However, if you use generic hardware and don't use your pc for gaming then Linux beats Windows in every conceivable way. It is far more secure and stable than Windows, and should an exploit ever be found it is quickly patched, whereas with Windows that may take a week or more. It gives you freedom, and best of all is that it costs nothing.
I think Microsoft realized that their OS's only real advantage over Linux or Mac was in the realm of gaming, and that's probably why they are pushing Vista and DX10 in order to keep that monopoly going.
Post by: Ceric on June 20, 2007, 04:06:21 AM
Also you can tell IE7 in Vista, and I beleive its this way by default, to be in a sandbox mode where any changes that software make is done to a sort of copy of your system that goes away after the IE session is gone. Though I'm sure most people will disable that as well.
People want security with no interaction. You can't do that with a fully featured machine. You will always have to trade Security for Useability amd vice versa.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 20, 2007, 06:08:42 AM
I will say this. Microsoft may not be the best company for gaming...but it isn't the worst. I really don't think it is fair to blame all the problems of PC gaming on Microsoft. There are several issues to why PC gaming just isn't as intuitive as console gaming...and never will be.
I also do think it is fair to say Microsoft hasn't done anything good for gaming, because Xbox Live is simply brilliant. It has created a great community of gamers to talk to, play online games with, and even a rewards system to finish your games or accomplish specific ingame tasks. These achievement points help replay value of games and promote a social status in the community of Xbox Live.
The system isn't flashy but it works great. On top of that, the Xbox 360 does have quite a few really great games out right now. Sure, at the moment they are geared more towards western audiences, but that is simply because Japan and other countries are very hard to crack and Microsoft's XBox so far appeals more to Western gamers...but that isn't that bad.
Right now the Wii I would say mostly appeal to Japanese market, or nongamer market, but I am not critical of that fact.
I do understand that Microsoft is using gaming to create an open into your living room. But, I must ask is really such a horrible evil idea? As long as Microsoft and third parties can continue to create great games that people want to play then why not have that system also supply your DVR needs? Or play your DVD/HD movies? It means less clutter in your house. And yeah, you may not get the very best HD-DVD player, but at least you have one.
And if you haven't noticed Nintendo has been pushing into the same realm as Microsoft and Sony, they just haven't been talking about it. Internet Channel, Weather Channel, News Channel, Download Channel, Everyone Votes Channel...these are nongamer applications, that help promote the Wii as more than a gaming device.
We are just forgiving Nintendo because we know Nintendo is all about the games from their track record.
But you know, what happens if Nintendo decides to release a $100-150 hard drive for the Wii. The huge selling point is that it can hook up to your cable, and a DVR channel for your Wii is created. And new downloadable games are finally available in the Virtual Console, and we can finally have the part of that 512 storage as virtual RAM to make our games better? Would we all be critizing Nintendo for those bold moves, or would be calling Nintendo visionaries because they got a gaming system into the mass market, and still are focusing on the games?
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 20, 2007, 06:11:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric People want security with no interaction. You can't do that with a fully featured machine. You will always have to trade Security for Useability amd vice versa.
Security is booting windows on your intel Mac where you can zap the entire windows partition and just reinstall your games any time you want because you don't do work on windows anyway.
Post by: Ceric on June 20, 2007, 06:24:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: Ceric People want security with no interaction. You can't do that with a fully featured machine. You will always have to trade Security for Useability amd vice versa.
Security is booting windows on your intel Mac where you can zap the entire windows partition and just reinstall your games any time you want because you don't do work on windows anyway.
If we take that to the logical extreme then why not just boot up a Virtual Server and run all your OS's that why and be done with it? (We are actually getting a blade server for just that at Tech.)
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 20, 2007, 07:35:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
If we take that to the logical extreme then why not just boot up a Virtual Server and run all your OS's that why and be done with it? (We are actually getting a blade server for just that at Tech.)
Because windows installations have the propensity to succumb to entropy whereas OSX does not.
Dammit, we've sidetracked the hell out of this thread...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 20, 2007, 08:16:47 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 20, 2007, 09:19:05 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 20, 2007, 01:37:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SheckyQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
All I can say is that I've had no problem keeping malicious stuff out with Norton 360 and various other software.
Heh, so you find Windows to be a solid operating system once enough bandaids are applied
Actually it is common sense to get system protection programs from companies that specialize in a specific area, I've found them to be far more dependable because their business rides on things like firewalls/virus protection and various other security features.
Post by: Shift Key on June 20, 2007, 08:42:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
How? Why? Did this thread get taken over by operating system talk.
I probably had a bit to do with it. But anyway:
Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost
Linux's main problem is that there are a zillion distributions of it and most are incompatible with the others... that's why driver support and commercial software hasn't made much inroads on it yet.
They are compatible. They share the same code base (kernel and tools) and differ mostly in the way that applications are installed. The driver issue is centred around hardware manufacturers not offering Linux drivers or hardware specifications and forcing users to reverse engineer the drivers in order to use the hardware.
As for commercial software, there's a metric ton of free applications out there that are designed for Linux.
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
I do understand that Microsoft is using gaming to create an open into your living room. But, I must ask is really such a horrible evil idea? As long as Microsoft and third parties can continue to create great games that people want to play then why not have that system also supply your DVR needs? Or play your DVD/HD movies? It means less clutter in your house. And yeah, you may not get the very best HD-DVD player, but at least you have one.
Right now there are a lot of invasive measures put on any sort of DVR that can be purchased. This is because content providers want to control the content on your DVR. TV shows, movies, music. If you've purchased it, then although you have purchased it then your freedom to do whatever you want with it is being limited. Call it DRM, call it content flags. Whatever name it is, it is a draconian system. Vista gave hints of this future in its multimedia capabilities - not sure if things have changed but it would degrade the video quality if the source of the video was not an approved provider. It even did this to DVDs.
So colour me skeptical about the idea of an all-in-one entertainment unit powered by a Microsoft OS.
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
But you know, what happens if Nintendo decides to release a $100-150 hard drive for the Wii. The huge selling point is that it can hook up to your cable, and a DVR channel for your Wii is created. And new downloadable games are finally available in the Virtual Console, and we can finally have the part of that 512 storage as virtual RAM to make our games better? Would we all be critizing Nintendo for those bold moves, or would be calling Nintendo visionaries because they got a gaming system into the mass market, and still are focusing on the games?
They're just gimmicks compared to the ability to stream movies from a networked Windows PC such as Media Centre or Vista.
I would be critical of Nintendo if they went down this path of "centre of the living room" that Microsoft and Sony are heading because it goes against their goal for the Wii which is a games system. Sure, bigger hard drives allow you to do things like store music or files, but when Nintendo starts offering TV shows through the Download Channel or micro-transactions to unlock cheat codes in a game, then I'll grab a pitchfork.
There's a huge difference between the Wii's online and the Xbox's online service. Even with the addition of a hard drive they are still very different.
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Actually it is common sense to get system protection programs from companies that specialize in a specific area, I've found them to be far more dependable because their business rides on things like firewalls/virus protection and various other security features.
Just because its such a nice bandaid program doesn't mean that you ignore the problem that you're patching up.
Post by: that Baby guy on June 20, 2007, 08:53:33 PM
The thing is, it would need to be marketed as an unnecessary enhancement for the Wii for Nintendo's sake, and I can't see that happening. Not only that, but Nintendo doesn't want or need to be responsible for hardware or firmware issues in a situation like this. For this to happen, the rights to do this would need to be sold for cheap, but with a very enforcing contract, and once again, I don't think any company would want to get in a location like this. I could be wrong, though.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 20, 2007, 09:42:39 PM
Post by: Shift Key on June 20, 2007, 10:59:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).
How dare I impart my knowledge on this situation because I may have some knowledge about operating systems!
I'm not going into a tirade about the faults of Windows in this thread, since you feel that anyone's opinion that differs from yours should not be heard.
PS: I direct you to two articles
1. Red Hat Enterprise Linux gets the top security certification available to an operating system by the National Information Assurance Partnership (NIAP).
Source
2. Microsoft claims Linux infringes on 235 of its patents
Source
You may not take it seriously, but people in the industry (Microsoft included) are sitting up and taking notice.
Post by: Shecky on June 21, 2007, 01:47:47 AM
I think a lot of people have been conditioned (Thanks Bill!) to be complacent with a lot of issues that come with the Windows way of life. They've grown up with it... they've gotten use to dealing with it, and they're familiar with the interface (only having to relearn where they moved all the functions every time a new release comes out
). So they think, "What's the big deal?"Shift Key and I are not trying to bash Microsoft, rather we were trying to educate just a little bit on the world of operating systems. I don't use *nix because I hate MS, although you seem to hate *nix and anyone who brings it up. I'm not heartbroken that you use Windows, why should I be?
My original post on this thread was in response to "Windows is a solid operating system", a fairly strong statement to which I questioned "compared to what...." by asking what OS you have tried. Now it's apparent that you haven't tried anything else, and don't really want to ... which is fine. However, please refrain from accusing those who have of being biased.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 21, 2007, 03:17:38 AM
Shecky: The DRM thing sucks, but what did you expect business to do. For years now, software, music, movies, anything digital is being stolen from these companies with no regard for what it is costing that business. There is always an excuse. "I am using it for school." "I bought the program once, why can't I have it on both computers." "Hey, they make their money from the corporations buying it anyway." "It is just too expensive for the common user...and I need it."
Something had to be done. This may not be the right solution, but unfortunately it is the solution we got.
Post by: Ceric on June 21, 2007, 04:44:18 AM
Is their an OS that is everything for everyone? No. If I want a web server I'm going Linux all the way with Apache. If I want trendy machine for a casual user, I probably just go with a Ma.. I'm sorry I just can't there are to many quirks in the user interface I don't like. Me personally for what I do it would be Windows. For people who like to watch a lot of media definitely Windows. For people who enjoy DIY and Open Source I go with Linux. For people who just like Open Source I go with OSX. The fact is in the end each OS has a specific niche and market it is more geared toward and friendly to. Much like Church demonations and religions. Hey if you want to be Southern Baptist or Pagan more power to ya. Thats what you believe. I'll tell you my opinions and do what you may. Just don't go ratting on mine.
On a side note: Last I checked no distros include DVD playing software by default because it was considered illegal. Any change on that?
On the Nintendo as a media hub. As a true hub where its just streaming from other sources sure I be ok with that. As a place where I buy movies and music to be stored on the Nintendo product, not so much.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 21, 2007, 04:52:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shift KeyQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).
How dare I impart my knowledge on this situation because I may have some knowledge about operating systems!
I'm not going into a tirade about the faults of Windows in this thread, since you feel that anyone's opinion that differs from yours should not be heard.
PS: I direct you to two articles
1. Red Hat Enterprise Linux gets the top security certification available to an operating system by the National Information Assurance Partnership (NIAP).
Source
2. Microsoft claims Linux infringes on 235 of its patents
Source
You may not take it seriously, but people in the industry (Microsoft included) are sitting up and taking notice.
What did I say? I say they both have their positive aspects, not sure how that goes into "Your opinion should not be heard". Talk about a complete overreaction (which you have done before). I've read about Linux and it is not the OS for me, maybe if I got involved in things that would put my computer at more risk, but at the moment I use my computer for the basics and Windows works perfectly, there is no need to get a new OS.
P.S. In regards to the bias thing, I was more referring to people like Smash who attack MS on everything, with individuals like that it makes it hard to take their opinion as anything BUT hatred toward X company when it comes to preference. If I came off as overly negative towards you Shecky I do apologize, you definitely have been quite fair!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 21, 2007, 06:43:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I really think you guys bashing MS should get a life, there are common sense CHEAP fixes for most of the problems and yet you still complain. I don't care if you have Linux or Windows you should always take extra steps to prevent problems. Both OSs have security problems, neither is perfect, and Linux does have the luxury of not being as readily available as Windows because the focus of hackers is more on Windows. What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).
Have you tried Linux? If you've never tried anything but Windows then you don't know that something even more stable is out there, and Linux is a lot easier these days than it used to be.
The final straw for me came when I had spent an hour typing something in windows and forgot to save it and then Windows just froze up and wouldn't respond. This has happened many times, before, but I had lost everything I was typing so from that day on I've been a Linux user and I've never had a repeat of that. So you say Windows is real stable and easy to use, but what are you comparing it to?
Plus, nothing beats free. Don't you have to pay $400 (plus tax) for the best version of Vista? For the 10 cents of a CD-R you can have Linux instead.
Post by: Adrock on June 21, 2007, 08:06:45 AM
Post by: that Baby guy on June 21, 2007, 11:03:40 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 21, 2007, 11:54:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo GhostQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I really think you guys bashing MS should get a life, there are common sense CHEAP fixes for most of the problems and yet you still complain. I don't care if you have Linux or Windows you should always take extra steps to prevent problems. Both OSs have security problems, neither is perfect, and Linux does have the luxury of not being as readily available as Windows because the focus of hackers is more on Windows. What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).
Have you tried Linux? If you've never tried anything but Windows then you don't know that something even more stable is out there, and Linux is a lot easier these days than it used to be.
The final straw for me came when I had spent an hour typing something in windows and forgot to save it and then Windows just froze up and wouldn't respond. This has happened many times, before, but I had lost everything I was typing so from that day on I've been a Linux user and I've never had a repeat of that. So you say Windows is real stable and easy to use, but what are you comparing it to?
Plus, nothing beats free. Don't you have to pay $400 (plus tax) for the best version of Vista? For the 10 cents of a CD-R you can have Linux instead.
I MAYBE had windows lock up like once or twice in the last decade. Like I said though alot of the stability may be coming from Linux not being the worth the time of hackers to create system ruining viruses (Those are about the only things that have caused instability problems for me in windows). So why would I want to switch to Linux when I've been more than happy with Windows and have had hardly any problems? That makes absolutely no sense, especially since I find Windows easy to use, stable, and easy to upkeep.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 21, 2007, 07:29:38 PM
There are probably other reasons, but that would take someone more familiar with the guts of it than me to explain... I'm just a user and I don't develop it or anything.
Post by: Shift Key on June 22, 2007, 03:58:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
What did I say? I say they both have their positive aspects, not sure how that goes into "Your opinion should not be heard". Talk about a complete overreaction (which you have done before). I've read about Linux and it is not the OS for me, maybe if I got involved in things that would put my computer at more risk, but at the moment I use my computer for the basics and Windows works perfectly, there is no need to get a new OS.
P.S. In regards to the bias thing, I was more referring to people like Smash who attack MS on everything, with individuals like that it makes it hard to take their opinion as anything BUT hatred toward X company when it comes to preference. If I came off as overly negative towards you Shecky I do apologize, you definitely have been quite fair!
I've had just about enough of this garbage. You've obviously had a good time with Windows. Bravo. Encore. Et cetera.
I'll bet there's a lot of people who haven't had good experiences with Windows. From the users who I've been involved with, there has been a lot of issues. Viruses, rootkits, weird sh!t, that kind of thing. I'm not going to spell it out but I think you're living in a state of delusion. Yes, you are aware of antivirus solutions such as Norton (I should belt you around the head for that decision alone, but that's not why I'm here). That is not a solution - it is a bandaid.
If you have to secure Windows after you install it by purchasing additional programs then the operating system itself is fundamentally flawed. I'm sure you'll argue this point but if you are in that mindset then I'm sure the hackers and crackers are licking their lips at the thought of Joe Gas Station not installing antivirus software with Vista
Forget the industry. Forget the hard-working people who are there solely because of security issues with operating system X. There is a much bigger problem afoot. If you choose to support the band-aid vendors, then you have chosen to support a vicious cycle. Even Microsoft agreed to this view when they refused third party programs access to the Vista kernel (but I bet you didn't notice this, your cocoon of knowledge would be oh so comfortable).
And they caved in to the third parties. Vista kernels can be accessed by third party programs. Which means they are as vulnerable as before.
And you've read about Linux? Congratulations. No, really. You opened a book, glossed a few paragraphs, and decided then and there your opinion. That's so very insightful. I wish I was as smart as you.
Given I am not as smart as you, I decided to actually try out Linux. And guess what - it takes a lot more work than an average Windows installation. There are definitely things that need improvement. But I guess that is what you deal with when you compare a collection of volunteers against a multi-billion dollar corporation - or am I aiming too low?
Anyway, I'm sure you've got something to reply to within this. You always do. Ciao!
Post by: 18 Days on June 22, 2007, 04:01:41 AM
Quote
I've read about Linux and it is not the OS for me.
cos it supports communism am I rite? Any red blooded American would support patriotic and christian Windows instead!
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 22, 2007, 05:56:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shift Key
P.S. In regards to the bias thing, I was more referring to people like Smash who attack MS on everything, with individuals like that it makes it hard to take their opinion as anything BUT hatred toward X company when it comes to preference.
I attack them for 2 reasons:
1. Because I used to make a living troubleshooting their OSes and will never forget what a horrible time I had doing it.
2. Every time I've set a relative up with a windows machine, it has been NOTHING but problems whereas OSX machines just quietly do their job unless someone spills a soda on it.
I don't know what other "prerequisites" for MS hatred I need to have other than that. I've been knee-deep in the pile of ass they call windows: it's the most worthless, convoluted, bloated and inexcusable piece of software I've ever seen in my life.
Point of fact: when MS is dominating an industry, the quality of their output goes right through the FLOOR. I've seen this time and time again as each iteration of windows is even less secure and usable than the last.
If the Xbox is a good franchise, it's because MS is in the "wooing" state with the gaming industry right now. It's the business equivalent of dating someone who is all nice, sweet and loving but that's only because you're not a sure thing...yet. Once you're married (aka. the industry is dominated) they stop giving a damn and you get asstacular products that ship with thousands of known bugs and security holes.
What more do you expect to justify my dislike of them?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 22, 2007, 07:03:57 AM
Post by: Shecky on June 22, 2007, 10:13:13 AM
I think we've finally come to a point were we have isolated your opinion... which is Windows suites you well and in your experiences you have not had any major issues. No one has issue with that, just please stop trying to talk about Linux!
That is all.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 22, 2007, 10:27:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky
GoldenPhoenix: Please note that your choice of words are poor in this thread. What you have said are statements that read as facts, yet are false and have mixed those with your own opinions. When folks have been trying to address those former statements, you seem to take it as an attack on your opinion and rise to defend it, and in said defense insert additional statements of fact or comments on other forum users which provoke more responses.
I think we've finally come to a point were we have isolated your opinion... which is Windows suites you well and in your experiences you have not had any major issues. No one has issue with that, just please stop trying to talk about Linux!
That is all.
I need to look no further than Shift's comments which are attacks, not everyone hates Windows either. Some have had experiences with both and prefer Windows, that is A FACT as well. If you are going to accuse me of attacking opinions, maybe you should talk to Shift instead of singling me out (though I feel that is because I actually like windows). The point of my posts is to actually stick up for those us that, gasp, actually like Windows. Regardless, please tell me where I stated my opinion as fact? The only areas I recall are:
1. Linux has the luxury of not being nearly the worth the time as windows when it comes to the creation of viruses and it may contribute to its stability (Hence the MAY, that is not a statement of fact)
2. It is common sense to try and protect your computer as much as possible with programs other than the OS, no matter how dependable they may be. It doesn't hurt.
3. I've been happy with Windows and have had hardly any major problems
4. Both Linux and Windows have positive and negative aspects
5. There is no point to switch to Linux when I've had nothing but good experiences with Windows
6. It is always suspicious to me when people attack MS or any large company and support a smaller company.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 22, 2007, 10:41:16 AM
We discussed stability and ease of use, but what about cost? $400 for the best version of Vista is not a good price... yes, it may seem cheap when you buy a PC and it comes with it, but it isn't free. Having it pre-installed adds a great deal to the cost, and I think other than the monitor Windows is the most expensive part of a manufactured PC.
I also like how virtually every piece of software on Linux costs nothing. I don't need to spend a ton of money on office software, or financial software, or anything because Linux pretty much fills every niche with free programs that are easy to install. I would really argue that they are much easier to install than on Windows, too. I just load up Synaptic and pu a check near the software I want, then click the install button and it automatically downloads and installs it for me.
Can Windows really do that? It can with IE and Media player and some other things, but can you download and install graphics editors or word processors to windows with one button click? I don't think so, so maybe Windows is actually the harder system to use. It certainly is far more expensive. Why spend money for Norton when there is free antivirus software like ClamAV? Linux saves you money.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 22, 2007, 10:44:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost
I don't really think people hate Windows so much as they prefer something else to it. I can understand that because Windows has a monopoly and virtually every PC you buy has it on it pre-installed, so people just use that and don't bother trying anything else, but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there.
We discussed stability and ease of use, but what about cost? $400 for the best version of Vista is not a good price... yes, it may seem cheap when you buy a PC and it comes with it, but it isn't free. Having it pre-installed adds a great deal to the cost, and I think other than the monitor Windows is the most expensive part of a manufactured PC.
I also like how virtually every piece of software on Linux costs nothing. I don't need to spend a ton of money on office software, or financial software, or anything because Linux pretty much fills every niche with free programs that are easy to install. I would really argue that they are much easier to install than on Windows, too. I just load up Synaptic and pu a check near the software I want, then click the install button and it automatically downloads and installs it for me.
Can Windows really do that? It can with IE and Media player and some other things, but can you download and install graphics editors or word processors to windows with one button click? I don't think so, so maybe Windows is actually the harder system to use. It certainly is far more expensive. Why spend money for Norton when there is free antivirus software like ClamAV? Linux saves you money.
Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$? Regardless I do respect your opinion, it is well presented without being rude, and it is someone like you that would actually make me think of trying Linux in the future. In regards to the free virus software, I have tried them in the past but I do prefer the more user friendly stuff like Norton 360, but I am always up to try new software if it is better and ease of use is the same. Doubt I'll ever switch from Office though, I've become pretty efficient in things like Excel and Word (I especially love Office 2007's interface and ease of use, not to mention what you can do with it).
Anyway correct me if I'm wrong but this Windows vs Linux thing boils down to this:
-Windows more user friendly but less stable and secure.
-Linux more complex to use but more secure/stable
Post by: Shecky on June 22, 2007, 10:49:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?
I say it's just as bad as Microsoft spending $50 million dollars on exclusive GTA4 content! (back on topic!!)
Post by: ShyGuy on June 22, 2007, 11:38:10 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 22, 2007, 12:16:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
As someone who has been in IT for eleven years, I can say I hate all technology with a deep and unbridled passion.
Lol, though you have to admit sometimes it is the people not the technology that is messed up.
. We've dealt with many IT issues at the company I'm interning for and some people have some really silly problems!
Post by: UERD on June 22, 2007, 12:28:54 PM
Quote
Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?
Then I want to know what school you go to, because Vista with the student discounts cost me $100+ (plus another ~$170 to get the Ultimate version), while Office cost me more than $150.
One thing I wish MS did was make their boxed OS licenses multi-unit licenses- for example, Windows Vista comes with 2 CDs and can be installed onto 3 computers at home, much like Office. MS wouldn't lose any significant amount of money because their OSes are mostly bundled with new machines (and that would stay 1 machine to 1 OS), and it would make upgrading comps at home a lot easier (especially as households tend to have multiple machines).
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 22, 2007, 02:53:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: UERDQuote
Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?
Then I want to know what school you go to, because Vista with the student discounts cost me $100+ (plus another ~$170 to get the Ultimate version), while Office cost me more than $150.
One thing I wish MS did was make their boxed OS licenses multi-unit licenses- for example, Windows Vista comes with 2 CDs and can be installed onto 3 computers at home, much like Office. MS wouldn't lose any significant amount of money because their OSes are mostly bundled with new machines (and that would stay 1 machine to 1 OS), and it would make upgrading comps at home a lot easier (especially as households tend to have multiple machines).
Well I go to a private university so things are probably different, I think 20$ is the most we pay for MS licensed software.
Post by: Kairon on June 22, 2007, 03:32:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
As someone who has been in IT for eleven years, I can say I hate all technology with a deep and unbridled passion.
Lol, though you have to admit sometimes it is the people not the technology that is messed up.
Isn't the company you've been interning for Microsoft? Or was that just a mentor relationship with someone from there?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 22, 2007, 03:59:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
As someone who has been in IT for eleven years, I can say I hate all technology with a deep and unbridled passion.
Lol, though you have to admit sometimes it is the people not the technology that is messed up.
Isn't the company you've been interning for Microsoft? Or was that just a mentor relationship with someone from there?
That was a mentorship, I have never worked for them.
Post by: SixthAngel on June 22, 2007, 04:08:08 PM
I get the feeling the only reason the failure rates haven't exploded with more mainstream media attention is because Microsoft is paying money, hiding the information, and throwing every PR guy they can at the problem just to keep it to the dull roar it is now. Even the internet articles I saw had an immediate page long PR guy respond in the very first post. I also still think they are using the amount of replacement boxes to pad their sales numbers so it doesn't look so pathetic.
If they are willing to pay $50 million just to get GTA exclusive content how much do you think they would pay and are paying to hide this kind of thing?
Post by: IceCold on June 22, 2007, 06:59:20 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 22, 2007, 07:26:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Microsoft never stopped showing their true colors, they just hid it with marketing and money. Did anyone here forget the absolutely horrible failure rate of the 360? You talk about their bad OS is but somehow forget that the product they have out for gaming already is really bad. I read something the other day that had a retailer estimate it at 30%. One said that there is a fundamental problem that they all still have, making is just a matter of time until they fail. I will try to find the link but the problems are obviously still there and don't seem to be disappearing.
I get the feeling the only reason the failure rates haven't exploded with more mainstream media attention is because Microsoft is paying money, hiding the information, and throwing every PR guy they can at the problem just to keep it to the dull roar it is now. Even the internet articles I saw had an immediate page long PR guy respond in the very first post. I also still think they are using the amount of replacement boxes to pad their sales numbers so it doesn't look so pathetic.
If they are willing to pay $50 million just to get GTA exclusive content how much do you think they would pay and are paying to hide this kind of thing?
That is a bit silly, if you recall all the DVD based systems have had alot of failure rates around launch. The PS2 had a big problem with it back in the beginning (Especially overheating), even the GC had a problem (Xbox did as well). Even this generation the Wii has had problems with the system being bricked or overheating. Sony has been having a really tough time as well and personally I think the reason why PS3 and Xbox 360 are having problems is that they are such complex systems alot can go wrong, heck when you need the fans they have things are bound to happen, especially when you throw HDs in the mix.
Post by: SixthAngel on June 22, 2007, 11:08:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
That is a bit silly, if you recall all the DVD based systems have had alot of failure rates around launch. The PS2 had a big problem with it back in the beginning (Especially overheating), even the GC had a problem (Xbox did as well). Even this generation the Wii has had problems with the system being bricked or overheating. Sony has been having a really tough time as well and personally I think the reason why PS3 and Xbox 360 are having problems is that they are such complex systems alot can go wrong, heck when you need the fans they have things are bound to happen, especially when you throw HDs in the mix.
Bringing up minor problems that the other new systems have is just a distraction from the much higher failure rate of the 360. I don't see Nintendo, or Sony reps for that matter, dodging question after question after question about the failure rate of their systems. The 360 problems seem to go well beyond a few bad eggs turning up at launch (and they turned up far more often then the competition's).
Post by: Ceric on June 23, 2007, 02:33:31 AM
I also like to say I was really sad the day when Microsoft caved and gave third parties access to the kernel. I was also realy really annoyed at big antivirus/security developers leading the charge to get access because "they couldn't prevent hackers from doing so without it." My response: If a Hacker could get access to the kernel then you can to. Plus the experience will make it easier for you to know what to look for... I lost most little respect I had for companies like Symantec.
Post by: Mashiro on June 23, 2007, 05:04:19 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 23, 2007, 11:05:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngelQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
That is a bit silly, if you recall all the DVD based systems have had alot of failure rates around launch. The PS2 had a big problem with it back in the beginning (Especially overheating), even the GC had a problem (Xbox did as well). Even this generation the Wii has had problems with the system being bricked or overheating. Sony has been having a really tough time as well and personally I think the reason why PS3 and Xbox 360 are having problems is that they are such complex systems alot can go wrong, heck when you need the fans they have things are bound to happen, especially when you throw HDs in the mix.
Bringing up minor problems that the other new systems have is just a distraction from the much higher failure rate of the 360. I don't see Nintendo, or Sony reps for that matter, dodging question after question after question about the failure rate of their systems. The 360 problems seem to go well beyond a few bad eggs turning up at launch (and they turned up far more often then the competition's).
I don't consider systems bricking, overheating to the point of not working, or dieing to be minor problems. All the companies dodge the failure rates (though you would be have a tough time proving they are since you can't go by anecdotal evidence), do you recall the NDS Lite cracked hinge problem? Nintendo dodged that like crazy until they finally gave in. What are your sources to back up your comments that the 360 had more problems than the competition?
Post by: Kairon on June 23, 2007, 11:37:39 AM
At least MS had the decency of extending their warranty to the standard year long thing. I wonder if maybe these problems had to do with them pushing the 360 out the door as soon as possible... but the silver bullet of 65nm technology and accompanying redesign might sweep these problems all away, along with offering a lower price.
Gauging by what the internet has told me, the fact that these problems do exist is worrying, but what's more astounding is that people are actually playing even with their 3rd or 4th Xbox 360's, even after all these difficulties. Are hardcore gamers immune to hardware problem concerns?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 23, 2007, 12:34:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I think it's best to take the XBox 360's hardware issues in stride, (aka parody songs).
At least MS had the decency of extending their warranty to the standard year long thing. I wonder if maybe these problems had to do with them pushing the 360 out the door as soon as possible... but the silver bullet of 65nm technology and accompanying redesign might sweep these problems all away, along with offering a lower price.
Gauging by what the internet has told me, the fact that these problems do exist is worrying, but what's more astounding is that people are actually playing even with their 3rd or 4th Xbox 360's, even after all these difficulties. Are hardcore gamers immune to hardware problem concerns?
The only problem I've had with my Xbox 360 is the harddrive dieing but MS quickly replaced it.
Post by: Athrun Zala on June 23, 2007, 01:05:16 PM
QuoteVista is not even worth torrenting right now, sure as hell won't pay even $20 for it...
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?
and regarding Windows "stability", yesterday, while I was programming in C# (originally developed by MS), using the .NET Framework (created and maintained by MS), and running Windows XP, I got NO LESS THAN FIVE BSODs...
oh, and Linux, with GNOME and KDE, is pretty easy to use now...
Post by: Blue Plant on June 23, 2007, 01:41:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
At least MS had the decency of extending their warranty to the standard year long thing.
Heh heh, Microsoft? Decency? Or face a(nother?) class-action lawsuit.
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Gauging by what the internet has told me, the fact that these problems do exist is worrying, but what's more astounding is that people are actually playing even with their 3rd or 4th Xbox 360's, even after all these difficulties. Are hardcore gamers immune to hardware problem concerns?
I imagine after investing all the money that they've spent on games, giving up on the console itself would be scarier than ridding themselves of that nuisance.
Post by: SixthAngel on June 23, 2007, 04:11:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I don't consider systems bricking, overheating to the point of not working, or dieing to be minor problems. All the companies dodge the failure rates (though you would be have a tough time proving they are since you can't go by anecdotal evidence), do you recall the NDS Lite cracked hinge problem? Nintendo dodged that like crazy until they finally gave in. What are your sources to back up your comments that the 360 had more problems than the competition?
They are minor problems because they affect such a small number of users. I did a google search and grabbed the most recent article on the first page.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php
A quote from says 'A Sydney retailer said "Out the Nintendo Wii, the PS3 and the Xbox 360 the Microsoft product is the only one that we have had constant problems with. In fact when we sell the Xbox 360 we tell customers to contact Microsoft if they "Ever have a problem".'
Even if you say that the internet makes the problem seem bigger why don't the other systems have just as many complaints? The internet should be making problems for all systems appear larger yet the 360 problems still stand high above the others. The machine was poorly designed, not much more to say.
Post by: Kairon on June 23, 2007, 04:27:03 PM
Don't MS fix 'em for free though?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 23, 2007, 07:16:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngelQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I don't consider systems bricking, overheating to the point of not working, or dieing to be minor problems. All the companies dodge the failure rates (though you would be have a tough time proving they are since you can't go by anecdotal evidence), do you recall the NDS Lite cracked hinge problem? Nintendo dodged that like crazy until they finally gave in. What are your sources to back up your comments that the 360 had more problems than the competition?
They are minor problems because they affect such a small number of users. I did a google search and grabbed the most recent article on the first page.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php
A quote from says 'A Sydney retailer said "Out the Nintendo Wii, the PS3 and the Xbox 360 the Microsoft product is the only one that we have had constant problems with. In fact when we sell the Xbox 360 we tell customers to contact Microsoft if they "Ever have a problem".'
Even if you say that the internet makes the problem seem bigger why don't the other systems have just as many complaints? The internet should be making problems for all systems appear larger yet the 360 problems still stand high above the others. The machine was poorly designed, not much more to say.
Well I heard alot about PS3's problems and honestly one of the key things that could contribute to the lack "outcry" is that the PS3 isn't doing all that hot so there isn't a big enough sample. In regards to this article, who are these "retailers" and how do they determine the failure rate? There is too many unknowns in a story like that, which is why I hate articles for "X" that they have "reliable sources" or "a source" who are these sources? You may not like it, but the company who would know the real statistics about failure rate is the hardware manufacturer itself, and then it is whether or not you believe them. If you don't believe them, you better be able to back it up completely because like anything when you call an individual or even a company a liar you better have some substantial proof.
Post by: Kairon on June 23, 2007, 07:19:11 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 23, 2007, 07:26:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Proof? This is the internet!!! ^_^'
True, it is a fact LOOK IT UP!
Post by: BigJim on June 23, 2007, 09:26:43 PM
Nobody can help it when software updates brick a system, but the primary problem is overheating. Moral of the story, get a 360 cooling accessory. Or if you're so inclined, replace the heatsink paste that they cake on like cream cheese and apply your own quality thermal grease... or just wait for the re-designed units that *should* run cooler.
The PS3 can get pretty damn hot too, but it doesn't have nearly as much of a failure problem. As expensive as it is, it's fairly well designed.
Post by: SixthAngel on June 23, 2007, 09:30:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Well I heard alot about PS3's problems and honestly one of the key things that could contribute to the lack "outcry" is that the PS3 isn't doing all that hot so there isn't a big enough sample. In regards to this article, who are these "retailers" and how do they determine the failure rate? There is too many unknowns in a story like that, which is why I hate articles for "X" that they have "reliable sources" or "a source" who are these sources? You may not like it, but the company who would know the real statistics about failure rate is the hardware manufacturer itself, and then it is whether or not you believe them. If you don't believe them, you better be able to back it up completely because like anything when you call an individual or even a company a liar you better have some substantial proof.
It didn't take many ms consoles to be sold for the failures to start popping up. There are articles dated about this time last year that are talking about the insanely high failure rates of the 360 so a bigger sample is not necessary to judge the other systems. So you can either judge the PR that MS shoves at you while dodging the real questions or you can judge what retailers say they experience. Here is some PR, yeah lets believe them. It is a well known problem that it is higher then it should be while the exact level in unknown since ms keeps tight lipped/lies.
Post by: BigJim on June 24, 2007, 12:56:38 AM
My confidence was boosted negative 400 percent.
Post by: Kairon on June 24, 2007, 08:21:54 AM
Though I DO feel a little dirty spreading it, telling people not to buy systems because a Price drop HAS to happen sometime soon, because soon the PS3 controller will have rumble if they wait, because SOON MS will switch the 65 nm, and if they DO get an X360 an extended service plan ain't too bad...
Post by: Shift Key on June 24, 2007, 11:29:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
You may not like it, but the company who would know the real statistics about failure rate is the hardware manufacturer itself, and then it is whether or not you believe them. If you don't believe them, you better be able to back it up completely because like anything when you call an individual or even a company a liar you better have some substantial proof.
Yes, because companies always speak directly and use no "spin" at all to make things seem favourable.
In case you didn't smell the sarcasm, have a read of this: Microsoft PR guy talks to Journalist
This has been my most recent PR shadowboxing read involving a Microsoft rep, and its also one of my most enjoyable reads. Because he uses a whole lot of oxygen without producing information. Its truly amazing stuff.
Look, I'll even do a translation of his speak into layman's terms for you.
Quote
Q: What is the post-mortem on Xbox 360 manufacturing? How has it turned out for you?
A: Like any other post mortem, there are some things you would have done differently that you learned and that you incorporate back into your processes. Overall, it was really smoothe compared to the complexity of the product we were building.
Spin-removed answer: "We're not telling you details because any faults will be jumped upon by the media."
Quote
Q: Do you still say that is a normal return rate for the console?
A: We continue to say the vast majority of the people are really happy with it.
Spin-removed answer: "You think I'm going to say anything that isn't a glowing summary of the product I represent? Get out of town!"
Quote
Q: I’ve heard varying accounts of what is considered a normal return rate. Some people say that 2 percent is normal. Sometimes 3 percent to 5 percent is considered normal. Back to that question, can you address whether you are within those rates or within a normal rate.
A: We don’t disclose the actual number.
Q: Normal compared to the Xbox?
A: We don’t comment on that.
Spin-removed answer: "DIVERT ALL POWER TO THE DEFLECTOR SHIELDS, SPOCK!"
Quote
Q: What explains this anecodotal evidence that it’s out of whack, compared to the Wii or the PlayStation 3 or other consoles.
A: I would go back and say the vast majority of people love their experience. We continue to go back and address all of these issues on a case by case basis. There is a vocal minority out there. We go off and try to address their issues as quickly and as pain free as possible.
Spin-removed answer: "Look at that blue car. See how I showed you something irrelevant to your question and managed to avoid answering it. Yeah, that's why I'm a VP and you're just some guy. You truly are a terrible journalist"
Quote
Q: Can you say anything about the yield? Do you have a good yield? Can you say anything about the yield?
A: The important thing here is that each product that comes out of the factory is rigorously tested. To ensure highest quality for our customer.
Spin-removed answer: "Considering we 'designed' and 'fabricated' the chip ourselves, there's no way I'm telling you about the results. Unless they were good, then I'd be on the rooftops right about now telling everyone."
Quote
Q: If you have a high defect rate, won’t that ruin the business model? Won’t that ruin the profit?
A: I would say we don’t have a high defect rate. The vast majority of people are really excited about their product, and that we are targeting profitability for next year.
Spin-removed answer: "With a well-placed 'not' I managed to avoid your subtle trap. I may not be familiar with profitable products but I did get a few tips from my friends about how to make some money on the street soliciting my body - which I'm also excited about, but of course you didn't ask about this venture - so instead I'm going to work on the 360 by daylight to maintain this ruse."
Quote
Q: If you make a jump in a chip generation like that, from 90nm to 65nm, does that give you the opportunity to do a lot of things like totally resetting the quality level, totally resetting the costs?
A: Whether it is 90nm or 65nm, we have a high quality bar we target.
Spin-removed answer: "Suck my left nut, bookworm. Do something we might both enjoy for once."
Quote
Q: Does the quality automatically get better if you go from 90nm to 65nm?
A: The quality is good at both of those.
Spin-removed answer: "I choose to sit on the fence as long as you buy my product. It may look uncomfortable but I sleep surprisingly well."
Quote
Q: It seems like the obvious chance to do something new. For example, does it give you a chance to do the Xbox 360 Elite?
A: You know the business as well as I do. The design is essentially the same clock for clock as the previous version. It has to perform similarly to what was done in the past, as we go through this thing. We continue to drive the same levels of quality, to increase the quality if possible, and to ensure the customer has the best experience possible.
Spin-removed answer: "I don't know what you know about digital microelectronics, but I'll bet its minimal. So let me go back to talking about quality."
Aside: Having done a course in digital microelectronics recently which covered the effects of the scaling of feature size on a processor(say, from 90nm to 65nm, roughly a 25% drop in feature size) then it affects a lot. For example:
"The trends in circuit design in the past indicate the clock speed of a new processor will typically increase by the factor that the feature size decreases."
So either he knows a lot more about circuit design than my lecturer (who actually did this thing for a living until recently) or he's full of it.
But hang on a second. I'm getting a dose of that feeling, what is it, empathy perhaps? That feeling where you want to try and understand the other side of the argument, no matter how convoluted or nonsensical it is? Yeah, lets call it that.
If a hypothetical situation arose where Microsoft was designed the chip that powered their games console (just like now), then I should have no reason to worry, right?
Surely there's some sort of magical process which tests a design thoroughly and proves that a chip will work before it is fabricated, given that it has a clock period of approximately 0.3 nanoseconds (give or take a few hundred picoseconds) and that it is a tri-core chip (haven't actually seen one of those in production environments either, precendence or insanity?) which would require more complex testing than a standard processor.
And then I should trust that the custom chips are put under burn-in procedures to ensure that they are all quality processors and that they will operate correctly for a sufficient period of time as to enable me to play Microsoft-branded games for a few years until I get bored of it or see the next Xbox console is eminent.
But then why are there so many people having problems with their units (I have seen a 360 brick, and it was a pain for my mate to get it sorted out because the retailer wanted to send it away to get repaired through Microsoft - two degrees of bullshit instead of the usual one).
You see the reason why people are annoyed at their 360s dying in the first place? Perhaps because Microsoft refuses to acknowledge their is a problem in the first place. Perhaps they are ducking at every hint of trouble because their fortune wasn't made in the hardware market - and now that they are trying to do it largely on their own they are seeing problems with the manufacture of their system.
Perhaps their "internal testing" isn't that stringent. Perhaps there is a problem with the burn-in process of their custom chips (look it up). Perhaps they're not sure of the definitive cause of the problem. Perhaps there are multiple problems and they'd rather not talk about it.
Their PR people are just doing their job, but for once I'd like to see a PR person be frank with the media. Perrin wasn't frank - she was uppity and egotistical.
Anyway, the review continues on like this for a bit ... quality is something we strive for ... the majority of people are loving their systems ... et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. You see what I'm getting at.
When people like this are Corporate Vice President, Gaming and Xbox Product Group then I hope that they are at least able to speak person-to-person. But of course this guy decides to be a PR guy instead.
Post by: BigJim on June 25, 2007, 11:10:40 AM
Post by: blackfootsteps on June 25, 2007, 03:06:10 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 25, 2007, 04:21:18 PM
holy crap what a garbage product.
Post by: Kairon on June 25, 2007, 06:24:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: blackfootsteps
My 360 died last week. It pretty much had a whole range of problems, the flashing red lights of impending doom, a dvd drive that would get stuck and an AV cable that stopped being recognised. Pity because I did all I could to ensure its safety I even had a little portable fan near it for coolness. Also it's about a month over the 1 year warranty period
So... are you getting a new XBox 360? What is your personal reaction to the Microsoft brand in gaming? Do you still feel happy about your XBox 360 purchase, and would you buy the next MS console? Basically, has this experience influenced your future videogame purchase habits?
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 25, 2007, 06:58:07 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on June 25, 2007, 06:58:22 PM
Anyways, on the 360: I don't understand why any users would buy a second Xbox. I'd call Microsoft, and tell them that you have no intention of buying anymore 360's, that you plan to sell all of your games, and that you will buy a PS3, because it will actually be cheaper than buying a second, then third 360. See if they won't repair it for free, +/- the cost of shipping. Obviously this vocal minority is either all liars or not a minority at all, since nearly everyone on the net seems to have a broken 360 or two, or three, or four, or even more. I just don't get how the 360 sales numbers can be at such a standstill if they all are breaking.
So let us know what happens, BFS. I'm interested in seeing if you can't get it repaired.
Post by: blackfootsteps on June 26, 2007, 02:11:12 AM
I didn't however have another cable to test with so I'm not 100% sure.
@ Kairon: I got my 360 well after Aus launch and just like everyone else I had heard the reports so all along I have taken extra special care of the console - it disappoints me but I can't say I'm surprised. It sounds like the product was not quite up to scratch quality wise, especially after reading Shiftkey's analysis it seems that it still is a major problem and problem of recognition of the problem.
At the moment I've got exams so it's not really my main priority but my brother is a Halo nut so he wants it resolved soon. I'm not going to fork out for a new one, the only game I'm looking forward to is Mass Effect, but as mentioned my brother is keen for Halo 3 so one way or another we'll have a 360 I assume. I would definitely be very hesitant to buy a MS console in the future. Mainly based on the fact that I've had all kinds of consoles since I was little and they all still work, that this one failed doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.
@Chozo: Yep so affluent that I play(ed) my 360 on a 34cm tv. Hmmm, perhaps this is the cause of the AV problem
But no, I do know what you mean, if all reports on the nets are to be believed people do indeed go out there and buy new replacement consoles.@ Thatguy: Yeah thanks for the advice I'm definitely gonna try and get them to repair it for free. Although threatening to buy a PS3 may just make them think its a prank call so I won't go that far
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 26, 2007, 02:26:59 AM
I would mention that your system died, just barely over the warranty. Tell them you know of the issues Microsoft has been having with system failures and demand a new Xbox 360. They won't be able to do that. They will probably make an excuse of the warrant being out, but push anyway. Once they are in the corner more...then ask if there is anything else they can do. That is when they may offer to repair yours or give your a refurbished even though your warranty is out.
You know Nintendo is a great company with their warranty policy and such. I have heard several stories of Nintendo fixing units after the warranty has worn out. Because they understand that it is better to spend the extra money to keep a customer than to lose a customer.
Post by: blackfootsteps on June 26, 2007, 02:33:27 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 26, 2007, 06:21:32 AM
Post by: Kairon on June 26, 2007, 03:15:38 PM
Quote
...
Additionally, the call to the Havant repair centre revealed some other worrying stats: “A shocking statistic we found out though is that between 1,500 to 2,500 consoles get sent to Havant by three UPS lorries per day, to then be shipped to Prague for repair,” Lee told us, going on to add, “[We] phoned up Nora the [customer service] supervisor again, who then admitted my console was in Prague and hadn’t been looked at yet – she seemed amazed that we knew!”
Comments from users on the Xbox.com forum reveal similar woes, and some have also discovered their consoles are indeed in repair centres outside of the UK: “I just spoke to the customer support people because my 360 has been gone since the 8th of June,” says forum user, LordBrown in a post dated 23rd of June. “Apparently because of the backlog in Havant they’re sending 360s to repair centres outside the UK! And that because of this Microsoft are legally allowed an additional ten days to get your 360 back to you.”
...
This relates to the UK.
Post by: Kairon on June 26, 2007, 03:59:10 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on June 26, 2007, 05:30:18 PM
There are about 1.3 million 360s in the UK, and the 360 has been out for about a year and a half.
From the numbers this article gives, mathmatical trend suggests that about half of all working 360s end up breaking over a fairly short period of time.
Now, I don't believe this entirely. There is a whole lot of net ruckus over people owning more than two 360s just to replenish broken ones, so I suppose it could be possible, but honestly, anything close to 10% failure rate seems devastating enough to me, so I don't think Microsoft could release such faulty hardware. Their information does show that a more in-depth form of research needs to happen soon, so Microsoft can straighten this out. I could see world-wide class-action lawsuit occurring from a decent study, if my math is anywhere near accurate.
Post by: denjet78 on June 26, 2007, 08:38:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: thatguy
I could see world-wide class-action lawsuit occurring from a decent study, if my math is anywhere near accurate.
MS already extended the warranty period to a year in order to keep from having to deal with one class-action lawsuit. I wonder what lengths they'd go to in order to evade a second.
On the warranty front, my DS Lite broke today. The hinge where the power light is located completely broke off. It just broke off. I was playing it fine an hour before, came back to it, tried to open it and found that I couldn't. Called Nintendo, gave them the serial number of the system and they're sending me out a UPS slip to mail it back to them. They said they were going to repair it and return it but the guy was asking me all sorts of strange questions that lead me to believe that at the very least I'm going to be getting back a different refurbished unit if not a new one all together, which is fine with me as the touch screen was scratched to hell and I had two cracks in the hinge as well as a dead pixel on the bottom screen. None of that stuff really bothered me. Well, the touch screen was getting "ify" but that was about it.
Anyway, I had absolutely zero problem. I was asked if I had been overly abusing the system but I of course said no. The subject wasn't pushed at all. The whole situation was incredibly simply and strait forward. The guy was extremely helpful and polite. I don't even think that I mailed in my warranty card! I think I slipped in just under the year limit. Or maybe I was over? I'm not sure but whatever it was I had absolutely no problem. He even apologized because they didn't have a service center anywhere near me that I could take it to instead of having to mail it in!
How in the world can any other company compete with a service department like that?
Post by: Kairon on June 26, 2007, 08:42:14 PM
Post by: denjet78 on June 26, 2007, 08:55:19 PM
Post by: Kairon on June 27, 2007, 07:56:10 AM
Quote
XBOX 360 - Micromart has now withdrawn from offering a Repair Service for the dreaded 3 Red Lights fault.
This problem is endemic on the XBox 360 console and the volume has made this repair non-viable.
Other repairs to the XBox 360 are still being supported.
That "dreaded" line sounds out of place though. Did someone hack this corporate web site?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 27, 2007, 08:10:07 AM
Post by: vudu on June 27, 2007, 08:15:19 AM
QuoteUPS doesn't ship on Saturday or Sunday.
Originally posted by: thatguy
1500 a day, 365 days a year, means that in the UK, half a million 360s break a year.
1,500 a day x 260 weekdays/year = 390K units per year
Post by: Ceric on June 27, 2007, 09:44:07 AM
Anyways, what are you guys doing with your DS Lites? I mean I play my first revision bought on launch day DS all the time and the screen is barely scratched at all. The only thing wrong with it is that the paint is being rubbed off from use and carting it around.
Post by: denjet78 on June 27, 2007, 10:18:49 AM
Post by: Mashiro on June 27, 2007, 11:23:08 AM
I will never forget when they fixed my SNES. Sometime around 1998 I noticed SNES started to no longer display games in color. It was very weird and replacing cables and switching TVs didn't help. I didn't play the system all that much (N64 and all) but around a year later (1999) I decided to see if I could get it fixed.
I called Nintendo (mind you this is around 7 to 8 years after I got the system) and told them the issue and wondered how much it would cost to get fixed. I think I gave them some number on the system, then they asked me some questions (like how many games I owned and such, lol). Apparently it was a known issue with a few of the early SNES' and they would be happy to fix it for FREE and they just told me to have the system ready to ship.
Got it back a few weeks later good as new =)
Even though it was a known issue, I was still amazed that after 7 or 8 years of owning it that they would still fix it free of charge.
Post by: denjet78 on June 27, 2007, 12:49:04 PM
It was probably because they felt you were such a loyal customer that it was the least they could do. When my SNES finally died I never even thought about contacting Nintendo about it as, like you, it was well into the N64's lifetime when it happened. I eventually found an original SNES in near mint condition that I stole, heh heh, for some $15 at a local thrift store. I keep it in a very safe and very secure location. All of my SNES games had gotten ruined over the years before that though, stupid relatives who don't know how to keep their claws out of anything. In a few years when I'm more able I'm going to start building up my SNES library again.
Best. Console. Ever.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 27, 2007, 02:12:21 PM
Post by: Mashiro on June 27, 2007, 03:04:02 PM
Also you're probably right about being a loyal customer and such. Gotta love Nintendo!
Post by: UERD on June 27, 2007, 04:45:49 PM
Quote
Denjet I agree, Nintendo has an outstanding service department.
They fixed my GBC countless times before it finally, mysteriously disappeared somewhere beneath the car cushions one day.
Quote
<re XBox 360 issues>
I don't know how bad the XBox's general technical issues are, but the disc-scratching problem was apparently of magnitude enough to compel the European Commission to launch an investigation. But to play the devil's advocate, MS has never done hardware on a scale like with the XBox and XBox 360 before, while Nintendo and Sony both have plenty of experience with complex consumer electronics.
Post by: Adrock on June 27, 2007, 07:48:46 PM
Quote
-Mario Party shot glasses (hey, I don't like Mario Party either, but shot glasses? That's a Mario Party I can get behind)
-An adorable stuffed Yoshi
-Wii Play shirt
-Nintendo beanie with "Nintendo" written in Japanese across the front
-A golden Triforce pin with the Japanese characters for Courage, Power and Wisdom on each triangle
-Triforce of Courage arm band
I'll give Nintendo credit for making generally sturdy hardware and peripherals. However, I absolutely cannot endorse their customer service myself (further details in this thread).
Post by: denjet78 on June 27, 2007, 07:56:12 PM
Quote
-A golden Triforce pin with the Japanese characters for Courage, Power and Wisdom on each triangle
*runs out to buy a Wii and break it*
Post by: Ceric on June 28, 2007, 02:15:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
I know other people who have had great dealings with Nintendo Customer Service. A friend in junior high called Nintendo about his Rumble Pak not working and they sent him a new one. Another, last year, had a Wii die. Nintendo not only replaced it at no charge, but gave him a free 512 MB SD card to back up his saves since he lost all of them (Zelda and Wii Sports). Here's a list of other stuff Nintendo gave him just for having a bum Wii, copied from another forum I go to (where he described his experience with Nintendo Customer Service):Quote
-Mario Party shot glasses (hey, I don't like Mario Party either, but shot glasses? That's a Mario Party I can get behind)
-An adorable stuffed Yoshi
-Wii Play shirt
-Nintendo beanie with "Nintendo" written in Japanese across the front
-A golden Triforce pin with the Japanese characters for Courage, Power and Wisdom on each triangle
-Triforce of Courage arm band
I'll give Nintendo credit for making generally sturdy hardware and peripherals. However, I absolutely cannot endorse their customer service myself (further details in this thread).
I feel so jipped now. They gave me NOTHING for my Wii that broke just a week after launch. I lost 20 hours worth of Zelda gameplay, a few medals in WiiSports, and lost all my data from RRR...
Post by: Adrock on June 28, 2007, 07:22:22 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 29, 2007, 08:01:11 AM
separate reader testimonial:
"I thought I was was bad, I'm on my 7th Xbox360.
4 of them have suffered red rings of death, 1 was fauly on return from repair, 1 is simply dead, and 1 fails to read disks.
In addition, I have had 3 game disks scrated by the console..
I have since sold the last replacement, which did work for at least 2 weeks, I have kept the cash, and will buy a PS3 when the price drops a tad.
David Geaves"
Post by: Nick DiMola on June 29, 2007, 08:17:03 AM
Sorry for the sort of rambling rant, but I find it despicable that the representative of the company showed no care whatsoever over the situation. I'm glad Nintendo has some more sense than Microsoft and knows how to properly deal with a customer. I think Adrock's experiences are anomalies, I've never once had a problem, and after they look up my My Nintendo account they kiss my ass because I buy so many Nintendo products.
Post by: oohhboy on June 29, 2007, 08:37:03 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on June 29, 2007, 08:55:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
My brother's 360 just died a couple days ago and his warranty is supposed to expire in August. I called Microsoft for him and they told me that the system's warranty expired in May and they won't do repairs on the system. Unfortunately my brother's receipt was printed on heat sensitive paper that faded over time and now he has no recourse whatsoever to get his 360 fixed.
Don't they scan serial numbers at the PoS of a system for exactly this reason?
Apple didn't need to see a receipt to know when I purchased my MacBook so I'm confused as to why MS would...
Post by: KDR_11k on June 29, 2007, 09:21:01 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on June 29, 2007, 09:54:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Perhaps it was returned before and they didn't deregister it or the store just scanned the serial whent he thing arrived at the warehouse.
Exactly. The only reason I would need the receipt would be to back up my claim. Someone somewhere screwed up and now I guess my brother is forced to pay the consequences. Unfortunately they have my brother's information on file now, so he couldn't get away with buying another 360 and dumping the broken one in the box without getting caught (not that I would condone this in any other situation). It's just a frustrating situation and it's completely unfair that the consumer is left to pay the consequences of multiple errors on Microsoft's behalf.
Post by: vudu on June 29, 2007, 10:10:01 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 29, 2007, 10:40:22 AM
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on June 30, 2007, 04:48:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Who's 360 is next? GP's or Bill's?
Phew Pro666 left me off his radar of doom oh shi.....
Post by: SixthAngel on June 30, 2007, 06:48:34 PM
Post by: Kairon on June 30, 2007, 08:22:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
While not confirmed if you don't want to be be the next to have your system die you should avoid Forza.
That's chilling.
Post by: Urkel on June 30, 2007, 08:42:31 PM
Quote
I have since sold the last replacement, which did work for at least 2 weeks, I have kept the cash, and will buy a PS3 when the price drops a tad.
Sony's making a comeback!!!!!!!
Post by: Nick DiMola on July 01, 2007, 04:29:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
While not confirmed if you don't want to be be the next to have your system die you should avoid Forza.
I love how Microsoft just doesn't care about consumers in the least. If you piss off enough people you will get a bad image and people will stop buying your goods, especially when there are 2 other competitors who sell items very similar to yours. If your product is made poorly and is breaking due to your errors, step up and do the right thing, replace peoples consoles and don't make a big deal out of it.
Post by: Ceric on July 01, 2007, 08:13:08 AM
I think its not Microsoft as a whole its Microsoft's console and game division. Bad thing is with a corporation that large it reflects on the whole thing. Sometimes its good being a puppet master organization, own lots of other corporations but your name isn't on them so they don't effect each other.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 01, 2007, 08:27:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
While not confirmed if you don't want to be be the next to have your system die you should avoid Forza.
LOL is each new game some sort of TIME BOMB?
Post by: Kairon on July 02, 2007, 01:20:03 PM
Quote
EB Games held conference calls for its Canadian stores informing them of the new policy changes and revealing alarming failure rates of the Xbox 360. “The real numbers were between 30 to 33 percent,” said former EB Games employee Matthieu G., adding that failure rate was even greater for launch consoles. “We had 35 Xbox 360s at launch I know more than half of them broke within the first six months (red lights or making circles under the game discs). Two of them were dead on arrival.”
*ducks* Don't kill the messenger guys!
Also, I found this explanation on the NeoGAF forums, so take it with a bit of salt, but still... wow.
Quote
Every X360 will die within a few year time period. There is a DESIGN FLAW in the system In EVERY SINGLE SYSTEM (normal & elite) with the X-clamps that causes the boards to flex when heating and cooling back down and over time that will screw up the GPU connection to the motherboard and give you the 3 lights.
...
...if the truth every got out official and that's why it NEVER WILL. People not only stand to lose their jobs from telling the truth, but lose any potential of ever getting another job, and stand to lose their homes, savings, etc...
It looks to me like MS has a serious problem on their hands, and retailers too. An endemic problem up to 33%... if true, it's no wonder that MS is trying to sidestep the issue.
It's such a pity too, because otherwise, the XBox 360 is an amazing piece of hardware, and this one problem is crippling their manufacturing rates, profit potential, consumer perception, and ability to drop the price on the systems. That move to a redesigned 65 nm process can't come soon enough.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 02, 2007, 01:35:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mr. JackQuote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
While not confirmed if you don't want to be be the next to have your system die you should avoid Forza.
I love how Microsoft just doesn't care about consumers in the least. If you piss off enough people you will get a bad image and people will stop buying your goods, especially when there are 2 other competitors who sell items very similar to yours. If your product is made poorly and is breaking due to your errors, step up and do the right thing, replace peoples consoles and don't make a big deal out of it.
Microsoft has been extremely easy to deal with anytime I've had an issue, when my HDD died they replaced it with no questions asked (well besides the testing they make you go through). A friend of mine had their Xbox 360 break and MS replaced it as well with no big fuss.
Post by: Shecky on July 02, 2007, 04:36:18 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 03, 2007, 06:20:07 AM
The big problem with the Xbox 360 is how crazy widespread the problem seems to be. If the stories and numbers are to be believed then there are several people that have returned their Xbox 360s and received a new just to break again...and then it happening later on to them with yet another Xbox 360.
If the failure rate was normal, it would be almost impossible for a person to get a bad Box and then have another one fail...and then another one.
The odds just should be against that. So either manufactoring problems are extremely highly, or there is a major design flaw in the components and 100% of the Xbox 360s have the potential to failing. In that case Microsoft has serious problems, because the first generation 360s will all eventually fail.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 03, 2007, 06:58:22 AM
If that is indeed the problem then I don't see how MS couldn't fix that with an extra step in assembly to just replace you tighten that particular screw.
I don't even own a 360 and this defective 360 plague is really hurting the system's popularity. The 3 people that I know that have 360's are either on their 3rd 360, are contemplating with having a 360 that doesn't work 100% correctly or just don't play it in fear of it breaking again. I think its pretty sad. Microsoft really should do something.
Post by: BigJim on July 03, 2007, 08:21:29 AM
Apparently they were getting too many in, the repairs are too extensive and would be too expensive, and it's just all-around not viable to fix the problems.
What is it going to take for people to stand up, for the media to take notice, and force MS to issue the recall that the product deserves?
Post by: Kairon on July 03, 2007, 08:29:25 AM
Post by: Arbok on July 03, 2007, 09:29:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
What is it going to take for people to stand up, for the media to take notice, and force MS to issue the recall that the product deserves?
Probably only if a lawsuit related to it gained traction, which would be about the only way I could see the general media start to take notice of it.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 03, 2007, 07:20:30 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on July 03, 2007, 07:26:04 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 04, 2007, 08:28:32 AM
Post by: denjet78 on July 04, 2007, 09:07:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I wonder if the replacement consoles are counted as "sold" in their numbers.
Considering that Sony does it I think it's rather easy to assume that MS does as well. What I would like to know is, does Nintendo? Not that it even matters. Their hardware is so well built that even if they did it would only skew the numbers by maybe 1-2% at most.
Post by: SixthAngel on July 04, 2007, 09:10:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I wonder if the replacement consoles are counted as "sold" in their numbers.
Of course they are. Since ms counts shipped numbers a customer doesn't actually have to be able to buy the box. They either shipped it to the service center or a store but still shipped it.
You also have to consider the people who don't have a warranty or don't want it repaired and buy a new one instead (as well as those who don't want to replace it). With these huge failure rates and rebuys I would think the actual number of working consoles is far, far, far lower then the numbers given out.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 04, 2007, 10:39:36 AM
Post by: Kairon on July 04, 2007, 10:47:34 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 04, 2007, 10:49:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Are "no comments" effectively the same as "neither cofirm nor deny" responses?
I think in this instance it is confirm because if MS still held the official 4% system failure rate he would have gave me that.
Post by: Ceric on July 04, 2007, 03:37:04 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on July 05, 2007, 09:31:46 AM
Post by: Kairon on July 05, 2007, 10:27:47 AM
Quote
...
Any Xbox 360 customer who experiences a general hardware failure indicated by three flashing red lights will now be covered by a three year warranty from date of purchase.
...
Microsoft stands behind its products and is taking responsibility to repair or replace any Xbox 360 console that experiences the "three flashing red lights" error message within three years from time of purchase free of charge, including shipping costs. Microsoft will take a $1.05 billion to $1.15 billion pre-tax charge to earnings for the quarter ended June 30, 2007 for anticipated costs under its current and enhanced Xbox 360 policies.
...
said Robbie Bach, president of Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices Division. "We value our community tremendously and look at this as an investment in our customer base. We look forward to great things to come."
For any customer who has previously paid for repair expenses related to the three flashing lights error message on the Xbox 360 console, Microsoft will retroactively reimburse them.
Frankly, I think this is what they needed to do, so good for them. The $1.05-$1.15 billion cost to last fiscal year's gotta hurt though.
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 05, 2007, 10:43:10 AM
Post by: that Baby guy on July 05, 2007, 11:26:12 AM
If we assume that the majority of broken consoles were premium ($400) versions, that 11 billion of the consoles have been shipped, that the cheapest way to fix the console is to replace them, and that the exact cost of replacing one is the cost of sale, we'll see that about 23% of 360s were defective.
However, honestly, I think the cost to fix should be less than $400, which would mean that an even higher percentage is messed up.
I would hate to be an MS shareholder right now. They just threw out a billion dollars more on the 360, and will face absolutely no gains from this money.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 05, 2007, 11:35:48 AM
Post by: Kairon on July 05, 2007, 11:36:46 AM
Post by: Blue Plant on July 05, 2007, 11:40:38 AM
Post by: BigJim on July 05, 2007, 12:17:54 PM
Translation: The horrible PR was catching up to us too fast to keep our heads in the sand any longer.
I was just about to post the newsbyte. Well finally MS woke up. So good on them for the 3 year coverage, but I'm still hesitant to get a system unless I know it has all the right safeguards. Any off-the-shelf box today can be defective. And I sure as hell wouldn't want a refurbished unit as a replacement.
Post by: Kairon on July 05, 2007, 12:25:37 PM
Post by: BigJim on July 05, 2007, 01:32:05 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on July 05, 2007, 01:54:25 PM
"It suggests the problem is pretty widespread," Rosoff said."
Post by: SixthAngel on July 05, 2007, 07:21:10 PM
Will developers respond since they should realize that the sales numbers for the xbox will from now on be unreliable?
Once you get it repaired what is your warranty on the refurb that you receive?
Post by: Kairon on July 05, 2007, 08:05:43 PM
I bet you're taken care of for 3 years from original date of purchase, no matter how times it's replaced. Can't imagine they'd do it any other way.
Post by: SixthAngel on July 05, 2007, 08:22:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
What's unreliable? Software sales evidently aren't affected by the Three RROD. Capcom still sold millions of copies of Lost Planet and Dead Rising. What's not to love if you're a third party?
I bet you're taken care of for 3 years from original date of purchase, no matter how times it's replaced. Can't imagine they'd do it any other way.
The number of consoles that are actually on the market and working is unreliable even with a big warranty (that everyone who has a dead system won't know about). Claiming a user base is a certain size isn't the same when the reliability of the consoles means the number has to be less.
Post by: Kairon on July 05, 2007, 08:41:35 PM
Post by: SixthAngel on July 05, 2007, 09:20:28 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 05, 2007, 10:11:21 PM
Post by: Blue Plant on July 05, 2007, 10:13:23 PM
Post by: Luigi Dude on July 08, 2007, 09:31:55 AM
I think this quote sums it up perfectly.
Quote
In Australia Microsoft refused to return calls on the issue and their PR Company even went as far as saying that there was no problem and that SmartHouse was exaggerating. So we decided to contact retailers selling the Xbox 360. They reported massive problems with the console with several claiming that the return rate was over 30%
As an example the Sony PS2 had a return rate of between 1 & 2% The PS 3 which has only been in the market for 6 months is less than 1%. Robbie Bach, president of Microsoft's entertainment and devices division, declined in an interview to say what specifically caused the failures or how high the failure rate has been, but Asian manufacturers of the Xbox 360 who have been pressured by Microsoft to lower costs by as much as 15% say that the problem is caused by poor Microsoft design and the Company buying low cost components in an effort to beat Sony.
There's your Microsoft Seal of Quality right there folks.
Post by: BigJim on July 09, 2007, 08:29:36 PM
Just in time for the fall weather, the repaired 360 will merely heat your house, rather than undesireably set it on fire.
Post by: Kairon on July 09, 2007, 09:47:28 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 09, 2007, 09:50:13 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 09, 2007, 09:57:27 PM
... though they should probably do this as a limited time Spring/Summer '08 to shore up a traditionally dry season. Even better if they had done this Summer '07!
Post by: Kairon on July 09, 2007, 11:35:17 PM
Scratched Disk Class Action Lawsuit.
Post by: couchmonkey on July 10, 2007, 06:52:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Just when you thought they were clear...
Scratched Disk Class Action Lawsuit.
Ah ha ha ha, I love the choice of Peter Moore DJing for the photo on the article. Anyway...my prediction is that MS will drop the price before the end of the year, but not until the Halo 3 launch, or possibly even later. The game division really wants to make a profit, it seems, but I don't think they can ignore the so-so sales forever. PS2 should not be outselling it at this point.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 10, 2007, 05:02:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Here is hoping for the official announcements of Viva Pinata Party for fall and another Pinata game coming next year or so.
All I have to say is, remember who leaked this information first!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 12, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Goldberg says: YOU'RE NEXT
Post by: SixthAngel on July 12, 2007, 08:36:48 PM
Post by: Kairon on July 12, 2007, 08:56:10 PM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 13, 2007, 04:50:16 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on July 13, 2007, 06:08:24 AM
I'm sure that all the 360s are potentially faulty, but like Kairon says, MS will avoid a recall at all costs. It would hamper business for months to come, the warranty set-up allows them to spread the misery out over the next three years.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on July 13, 2007, 08:15:32 AM
Post by: oohhboy on July 13, 2007, 11:01:06 PM
The asinine messages that come out from a lot of corporations these days have me worried. I wouldn't be surprised if MS imploded suddenly with little to no warning.
Post by: Mashiro on July 15, 2007, 12:55:20 AM
Well it's better than selling the faulty units! Shame the new batch will probably break anyway.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 15, 2007, 04:51:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
EB Games Australia Issues Total Recall
Fixed to be totally awesome in a Schwarzenegger kinda way.
Post by: Ceric on July 15, 2007, 02:57:41 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on July 15, 2007, 03:27:56 PM
Post by: Mashiro on July 16, 2007, 09:48:06 PM
Complete with hot cos-play bonus picture!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 23, 2007, 07:20:22 AM
GI Interview: MS says "Resident Evil 5 on 360 was supposed to be the big announcement of E3"
Quote
Kim: Yeah, but here’s the thing: I think one of the most important, subtle announcements at the Xbox 360 briefing is that Resident Evil is coming to Xbox 360. Yes, it’s from Capcom, who’s been a great supporter of us.
GI: But we knew that two years ago.
Kim: What?
GI: Resident Evil. It was shown at TGS two years ago.
Kim: No, but coming to Xbox 360.
GI: Yeah. It was at the press event.
Kim: I don’t think so.
GI: I’m positive. I was there.
Kim: Really?
GI: It was shown at both press conferences.
Kim: That RE5 was coming to…?
GI: Yep.
Kim: I’m going to have to confirm that. That was supposed to be the big announcement
Wow, is he new to this scene or what? Where was he when this was announced oh so long ago with that little video of someone running through the alleyway to get away from zombies?
Post by: Mashiro on July 23, 2007, 07:30:07 AM
It goes on to say:
Quote
And Wii’s not a great platform for them to do Final Fantasy epic-level types of titles, and PS3 doesn’t have a big install base and lacks momentum of their own. I think you’re going to see more and more Japanese content for Xbox 360. Hopefully, you’ll see more Japanese customers for Xbox 360, even though we’ve got that smaller install base. It’s a chicken and egg thing, right? It always starts with content. Hopefully, we climbed the hump with Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey when people see them. We’re not backing away from Japan, because we’re starting to win with Japanese publishers, and the more content we can get from those guys…
Really? and why not?
Clearly, the Xbox did so well with the Final Fantasy franchise. Oh wait that's right . . . Square-Enix isn't pushing FF on Xbox anymore.
And she speaks about install bases (even though it regards the PS3). Yeah, Xbox clearly has an install base in Japan where Japanese publishers should want to make games for the system. How many copies of Blue Dragon have sold? It took them, what, how many months to push 100k copies of the game?
Meanwhile DQS sold over what 300k copies in a WEEK.
Yeah you guys know what's going on. Stupid MS spin.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 23, 2007, 08:02:22 AM
Not that is matters, but I thought you might like to know.
Post by: UERD on July 23, 2007, 08:44:24 AM
We do have a 3rd-party issue looming on the horizon, unfortunately. Nintendo needs to go out there and convince several friendly third parties to develop a couple of serious, epic games for the console. Nintendo couldn't have grown if it hadn't moved into the casual market, but it still needs to build third-party support for the serious gamer.
Post by: Ceric on July 23, 2007, 10:01:41 AM
To be honest though, with just that 300k I think Dragon Quest had shot up to #6 on the Wii's Japan list according to the numbers SalesBot posted. The next 3rd party game, the DBZ game, clocks in at 134,482 units total. Also the first weeks sales is almost double that of the next highest first week sales, Wii Sports. Definitely the exception not the rule. Roughly speaking 10% of Wii owners in Japan now own Dragon Quest Swords and about 49% of the people who own a 360 owns Blue Dragon. I honestly don't know which one to compare it to on the PS3. Percentage wise Blue Dragon did very well. Volume wise not so much. It's back to the Chicken and Egg.
Do I think there is a market for Japanese games here in America? Definitely. Do I think other markets, Europe, should step up a little? Sure. Am I wary that Consoles are starting their slow decent into obsoletion due to handhelds? Yes. Its innovate or die time.
Post by: Mashiro on July 23, 2007, 05:17:21 PM
Quote
The three-year warranty does actually give us an advantage over the competition. And the fact that we're now ahead of this thing will heighten people's levels of confidence in terms of the Xbox 360 purchase.
Yes MS . . . clearly your three year warranty gives you an advantage over the competition. The fact that all of your systems are defective may ruin that confidence in terms of purchasing your system, freaking idiots. Making out like it's some sort of freebee. YOU SOLD TONS OF DEFECTIVE PIECES OF HARDWARE ::Slams head into a table:: how does extending a warranty on something YOU are responsible for equal an advantage over the competition!?
Man MS and Sony are real winners lately with their European guys.
Post by: couchmonkey on July 24, 2007, 05:23:47 AM
Sony and Microsoft priced themselves out of the market...possibly because they had no choice if they wanted to offer a level of hardware improvement that was acceptable to traditional gamers.
Nintendo came up with a new product that leaves a lot of the traditional market angry or at least dumbfounded, but that is cheap enough to grab up a lot of the traditional market plus some new markets.
Most third parties banked on the traditional consoles because they could quantify the audience. Many PS3 projects were probably started 2-3 years ago when companies still thought PS3 would dominate the market. And why wouldn't you think that? Until people saw the Wii line-ups at E3, and heard Sony's ridiculous price, there was no telling things would turn out this way. Even after that, many people were still skeptical: who would have predicted that Wii would still be sold out in many places even 8 months after launch? Even huge proponents of the blue ocean / disruption business plan figured it would take about a year for Wii to catch on.
So what we have is a situation where a lot of third parties are very invested in a big loser - PS3 - and most of them are way behind the curve on the big winner - Wii. In fact many of them still aren't sure if Wii is the real deal. It's not surprising, then, that third party support is all over the place.
Of course I'm ignoring 360, which actually has quite good third party support, it's just focused on a narrow demographic. That's not a huge surprise, the original Xbox had the same problem (even worse), but I don't think people realized it as much until 360 had the first-mover advantage and had trouble selling systems.
Post by: Ceric on July 24, 2007, 08:29:42 AM
For Geeks or people who do a lot of media watching in a variety of formats the PS3 is getting better every firmware update but is still to costly unless you go by adding the sum of its parts. The Wii if you want just games but, are only interested in Classics and New Experiences its nice and the price is right. The 360 is sort of a Jack of all trades in its own way now. It still leans heavy to the right(PS3). You think it sell better instead of relatively mediocre. Well they undermined the consumers faith in the brand early on with defect rate and being percieved as a tyrant. Now you couple that with the 360 supposively being the easiest to program for from ground zero, of course it be the Wii if you did a good amount of Cube programming. Throw in that one of the Major Engines that would be powering these games has gone AWOL from all indications. I wouldn't really want to be a third party right this second either.
Post by: SixthAngel on July 24, 2007, 11:51:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
Man something about the European division of the gaming world is filled with really stupid individuals. I thought it was just Sony but I was wrong!Quote
The three-year warranty does actually give us an advantage over the competition. And the fact that we're now ahead of this thing will heighten people's levels of confidence in terms of the Xbox 360 purchase.
Yes MS . . . clearly your three year warranty gives you an advantage over the competition. The fact that all of your systems are defective may ruin that confidence in terms of purchasing your system, freaking idiots. Making out like it's some sort of freebee. YOU SOLD TONS OF DEFECTIVE PIECES OF HARDWARE ::Slams head into a table:: how does extending a warranty on something YOU are responsible for equal an advantage over the competition!?
Man MS and Sony are real winners lately with their European guys.
It isn't even a real warranty since it only covers the 3 rings. It is a custom designed warranty for the hardware defect, it sucks even as a warranty.
Post by: Mashiro on July 24, 2007, 12:35:24 PM
Post by: UERD on July 24, 2007, 12:44:56 PM
Quote
Yes MS . . . clearly your three year warranty gives you an advantage over the competition. The fact that all of your systems are defective may ruin that confidence in terms of purchasing your system, freaking idiots. Making out like it's some sort of freebee. YOU SOLD TONS OF DEFECTIVE PIECES OF HARDWARE ::Slams head into a table:: how does extending a warranty on something YOU are responsible for equal an advantage over the competition!?
Nintendo should put cordite charges in their Wiis, and rig them to blow up the first time you plug the console in. Then they should short-sell stock in life insurance companies and invest in casket-makers.
Post by: Mashiro on July 24, 2007, 12:55:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: UERDQuote
Yes MS . . . clearly your three year warranty gives you an advantage over the competition. The fact that all of your systems are defective may ruin that confidence in terms of purchasing your system, freaking idiots. Making out like it's some sort of freebee. YOU SOLD TONS OF DEFECTIVE PIECES OF HARDWARE ::Slams head into a table:: how does extending a warranty on something YOU are responsible for equal an advantage over the competition!?
Nintendo should put cordite charges in their Wiis, and rig them to blow up the first time you plug the console in. Then they should short-sell stock in life insurance companies and invest in casket-makers.
LOL! Oh man that was awesome +10 cool points hahaha.
Post by: Mashiro on August 21, 2007, 08:03:07 PM
What a stupid kid . . .
Post by: Ceric on August 22, 2007, 09:55:05 AM
Post by: Shift Key on October 21, 2007, 04:20:41 PM
Quote
The new Xbox device, while allowing for extensive gaming capability, will be positioned as an entertainment hub that includes gaming and extensive wireless networking capability as well as 1080p playback. There is also talk of it including a dual HD TV tuner and EPG capability and a docking port for an MP3 player. For Toshiba, the device is critical if it is to be successful in beating Sony and the Blu-ray promoters.
Who said Microsoft wasn't competing with Sony for the lounge room?
Quote
The new device is expected to be released late in 2008 or at the 2009 CES show in Las Vegas.
Next-Gen starts in 2009 confirmed. Start throwing your Wiis away now to save time.
Source: http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Console/P4G5C3U2?page=1
Post by: vudu on October 22, 2007, 07:11:48 AM
Post by: BigJim on October 22, 2007, 02:23:33 PM
But an HD-DVD drive, sure why not. That's been speculation for a long time anyway.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 22, 2007, 04:42:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
The speculation goes a bit too far. The HD tuners isn't likely (see Tivo's HD problems, re: CableCards, switched digital video incompatibility, and no satellite support).
But an HD-DVD drive, sure why not. That's been speculation for a long time anyway.
If MS is serious about HD-DVD winning this format war then it needs to be standard for 360's at some point, so that the PS3 no longer provides that edge to Blu-ray.
Post by: Arbok on October 22, 2007, 05:37:24 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 22, 2007, 05:46:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Arbok
I really don't think Microsoft cares a great deal about who wins the next format war, to be honest.
I think you're right. Didn't they get their H.264 codec supported by both formats already?
That would be why its rumored that Toshiba is releasing an Xbox 360Q, right?
Its not MS pushing the format, it would be Toshiba.
Just like it was upto Panasonic to promote purchase of the Q.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 22, 2007, 11:11:22 PM
Post by: BigJim on October 23, 2007, 06:41:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo GhostQuote
Originally posted by: BigJim
The speculation goes a bit too far. The HD tuners isn't likely (see Tivo's HD problems, re: CableCards, switched digital video incompatibility, and no satellite support).
But an HD-DVD drive, sure why not. That's been speculation for a long time anyway.
If MS is serious about HD-DVD winning this format war then it needs to be standard for 360's at some point, so that the PS3 no longer provides that edge to Blu-ray.
Yep, I agree. They'll have a lot of lost time to make up for, though. By the time the HD-DVD drive went in (assuming a year from now like the article says), I doubt they'll be able to make up the difference that the PS3 has already made for BRD, unless Toshiba has some other big plans up their sleeves beyond $99 stand-alone players.
It's also speculation that MS is the one practically keeping HD-DVD alive. Not just because of BRD, but because "confusion" in the HD media space eventually helps their digital download service(s) down the line. That's a tiny bit too "conspiracy theory" for me, but who knows...
Post by: Ceric on October 23, 2007, 06:52:17 AM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 23, 2007, 06:48:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Yep, I agree. They'll have a lot of lost time to make up for, though. By the time the HD-DVD drive went in (assuming a year from now like the article says), I doubt they'll be able to make up the difference that the PS3 has already made for BRD, unless Toshiba has some other big plans up their sleeves beyond $99 stand-alone players.
On a positive note for HD-DVD, there was a studio that was releasing movies on both HD and BR but they recently switched completely over HD. Plus there are and have always been several film studios that are exclusively in the HD camp. Too bad that Disney and Blockbuster are backing BRD, though, because they are big players in this. But I wouldn't say HD-DVD is out just yet.
Most likely, I think what is going to happen is both formats are going to end up "winning" and dual format players will end up being the norm. This isn't like the VHS/Betamax war because the media are the same size and, I'm not sure, but I suspect getting a diode and all that to work with both formats isn't that big of a deal.
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
It's also speculation that MS is the one practically keeping HD-DVD alive. Not just because of BRD, but because "confusion" in the HD media space eventually helps their digital download service(s) down the line. That's a tiny bit too "conspiracy theory" for me, but who knows...
I wouldn't put that past Microsoft to do something like that. After all, they did their best to keep SCO alive so it could litigate Linux and those who backed it. It didn't work, but Microsoft accomplished their goal of casting F.U.D. over Linux for a period of years in order to slow its adoption. I read that was actually why they released the internet explorer web browser initially. They were afraid Netscape was going to threaten their Windows monopoly by becoming a platform for applications, so they bought some browser company for that purpose. Then of course, bundled it in with Windows 98 and drove Netscape out of business basically, and gave IE 90+% market share.
And didn't they just buy WebTV out of existence so they could kill it off and not have to compete with it? WebTV had a lot of potential to become what the Xbox is now trying to be. Awful nice to have billions of dollars to just buy your competition out of existence. Isn't this the reason they entered into the video game industry?
(For a minute I thought I was getting off-topic, but then I checked the thread title. lol)
Post by: Kairon on October 23, 2007, 07:22:22 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 23, 2007, 07:25:20 PM
Even though Bill Gates and shareholders alike, upto this point, have written the Xbox division a blank check to get it done, it still hasn't gotten the results that they were hoping for.
Post by: BigJim on October 24, 2007, 09:37:54 AM
Quote
On a positive note for HD-DVD, there was a studio that was releasing movies on both HD and BR but they recently switched completely over HD. Plus there are and have always been several film studios that are exclusively in the HD camp. Too bad that Disney and Blockbuster are backing BRD, though, because they are big players in this. But I wouldn't say HD-DVD is out just yet.
Most likely, I think what is going to happen is both formats are going to end up "winning" and dual format players will end up being the norm. This isn't like the VHS/Betamax war because the media are the same size and, I'm not sure, but I suspect getting a diode and all that to work with both formats isn't that big of a deal.
True. It's definitely early, and the best estimates are that the combined HD media sales account for only around 5%. It's still so early that we can say "both" or "neither" are winning. Heh. HD-DVD isn't out yet, though it's slanting in BRD's favor in a tiny "66% of 5%" kind of way, which in the grand scheme of things means little. I read about a $400 universal player coming out soon, which seems like a good choice.
This is going to drag out a while. It's funny to see how loud the debate is on the internet, considering their virtual irrelevance on the whole.
Post by: denjet78 on October 24, 2007, 12:37:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
It's definitely early, and the best estimates are that the combined HD media sales account for only around 5%. It's still so early that we can say "both" or "neither" are winning. Heh. HD-DVD isn't out yet, though it's slanting in BRD's favor in a tiny "66% of 5%" kind of way, which in the grand scheme of things means little. I read about a $400 universal player coming out soon, which seems like a good choice.
This is going to drag out a while. It's funny to see how loud the debate is on the internet, considering their virtual irrelevance on the whole.
I think it'so going to be pretty easy to pick which one is going to win out eventually, if the market ever decides to support either of them fully. The one that reaches a mass market friendly price point for a PC burner will win plain and simple. That doesn't bode well for Blu-Ray considering Sony's iron fisted determination to completely own and control the format. Even if dual players become the norm rather than the exception, the format that's easiest to pirate will win. I've already heard about HDDVD PC burners. I haven't heard word one in regards to Blu-Ray.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 24, 2007, 12:54:16 PM
It took the lead initially, then w/ the PS3, BD caught up, but now HD DVD is back. A sub-$300 unit is supposed to be released sometime before the end of the year, I think, which was the price point necessary for the DVD's success.
Post by: Maverick on October 24, 2007, 01:04:07 PM
Doesn't matter, 'cause so few people are buying them in the first place. Splitting the market like this is exactly what Microsoft wants so everybody skips out on HD discs and downloads them instead.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 24, 2007, 02:20:25 PM
Right now, there's too many formats for DD to really work, anyways, and nearly all have painstakingly annoying DRM, too. I think it would be better to wait about eight years before we really get to it, that way, when it happens, it'll happen right.
Post by: BigJim on October 24, 2007, 05:17:56 PM
Quote
That doesn't bode well for Blu-Ray considering Sony's iron fisted determination to completely own and control the format.
I'm not sure where you see that. Toshiba is still practically the only producer of HD-DVD players, except for some re-branded RCA boxes and the "combo" units. So it's pretty hard to judge their control, or lack thereof, of the format. I don't know of any explicit "iron fisting" from Sony, but we do know BRD has a number of consumer electronic manufacturers, and thus the majority of the CE industry's support.
Quote
the format that's easiest to pirate will win. I've already heard about HDDVD PC burners. I haven't heard word one in regards to Blu-Ray.
Personally I've seen more BRD burners (again Toshiba seems to be the only HD-DVD manufacturer that I can find). But PS3 is (so far) demonstrating that price and piracy won't quite dictate the victor that easily. But no burner is "cheap" yet, so I guess we'll see.
Quote
It took the lead initially, then w/ the PS3, BD caught up, but now HD DVD is back. A sub-$300 unit is supposed to be released sometime before the end of the year, I think, which was the price point necessary for the DVD's success.
The PS3 more than helped them catch up; this calendar year has been in favor of BRD by 2:1. The since-inception numbers are close to that as well. There are already $250 HD-DVD players out on in the wild. A cheaper HD-DVD player will help, but it won't be a magic bullet.
Post by: Arbok on October 24, 2007, 06:21:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
The PS3 more than helped them catch up; this calendar year has been in favor of BRD by 2:1. The since-inception numbers are close to that as well. There are already $250 HD-DVD players out on in the wild. A cheaper HD-DVD player will help, but it won't be a magic bullet.
True, but look at the data that Sony themselves compiled:
The drop off from the rate at the start of the year is noticeable, and while Blu-Ray has some very nice surges... it's actually in faster decline. The fact that overall HD "format" sales are dropping, though, indicates to me, even at this early stage, that neither will truly ever beat DVD as the de facto standard, or ever break out from just being niche.
It would have been interesting to see what it would have been like if there wasn't a Blu-Ray and HD-DVD battle, and had one format just gone up against DVD. Probably would have fared much, much better at possibly replacing the format... as I feel that after all the confusion and dust settles, and one format stands atop the other, most consumers aren't going to care much anymore as it's no longer "the new thing".
Post by: BigJim on October 24, 2007, 07:13:38 PM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 24, 2007, 08:05:42 PM
If HD and BRD stay locked in this struggle and neither one becomes a de facto standard within the next few years, then I don't think either of them ever will because by then there will be something far better coming out.
And as BigJim said, VOD and DD may mean an end to optical media delivery. *shrug* I dunno, but I'd be very reluctant to buy into either format right now, otherwise we may end up like those poor saps who purchased Laserdisc players back in the day.
Post by: BigJim on October 24, 2007, 09:25:12 PM
DD will be the successor to BRD or HD-DVD, IMO.
Post by: BigJim on October 27, 2007, 09:28:24 AM
Plus the 5 free movies thing.
Wal-Mart will be following suit on the $200 price on the 3rd.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 27, 2007, 10:59:13 AM
Post by: BigJim on October 27, 2007, 01:38:49 PM
Among the drama was that HD-DVD was rejected by the Forum a couple of times. New seats were added to the group, voting rules were changed, and wham-bam, HD-DVD is pushed through as the new standard, ticking some people off in the process. It's all pretty odd.
I think that the biggest reason HD-DVD has gotten soft manufacturing support is Toshiba's business model. Their goal was to undercut BRD hardware and push marketshare through aggressive pricing. That's attractive to consumers but not to the other companies. They followed the money, and hedged their bets on PS3 having an impact. That's my take on it, anyway.
Post by: Athrun Zala on October 28, 2007, 03:01:36 PM
Quoteagreed, I'm pretty much convinced that HD-DVD/BR are the DVD-A/SACD of video...
Originally posted by: Arbok
The drop off from the rate at the start of the year is noticeable, and while Blu-Ray has some very nice surges... it's actually in faster decline. The fact that overall HD "format" sales are dropping, though, indicates to me, even at this early stage, that neither will truly ever beat DVD as the de facto standard, or ever break out from just being niche.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 29, 2007, 01:36:44 AM
The reason this option wasn't pursued has to be pure greed. The studios wanted someone that couldn't be pirated, but they failed because from what I understand someone already broke the encryptions to both formats.
Post by: King of Twitch on January 06, 2008, 06:22:28 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080107/ap_on_hi_te/gadget_show_gates
Post by: oohhboy on January 06, 2008, 11:13:27 PM
Post by: MLS_man_64 on January 10, 2008, 03:36:04 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 10, 2008, 03:48:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MLS_man_64
Gates: Xbox 360 most reliable console
Talk about misquoting someone here is what he really said:
Quote
Continued Gates, "We did that for free for all those people; we've gotten a lot of positive feedback about the way we handled it. We've got incredible reliability on the new work that we’ve done, so our commitment is that it will be the most reliable video game box out there.”
Post by: Crimm on January 10, 2008, 05:21:42 PM
JOURNALISM
Post by: King of Twitch on January 20, 2008, 06:27:10 PM
"Xbox's mission statement is to preserve the Windows monopoly and extend it into the living room, as a media extender for a Media Center PC, along with a host of other MS and other company's hardware devices that fit into a digital entertainment lifestyle."
Will sell millions of defective product, accept any loss to take control of your house.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 20, 2008, 11:06:52 PM
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 21, 2008, 03:09:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MJRx9000
More confirmation of the great satan's plans:
"Xbox's mission statement is to preserve the Windows monopoly and extend it into the living room, as a media extender for a Media Center PC, along with a host of other MS and other company's hardware devices that fit into a digital entertainment lifestyle."
Will sell millions of defective product, accept any loss to take control of your house.
I'm surprised you haven't seen these sign of things if you have been paying attention to Microsoft's business trends, trends with interlacing all the services they offer together and using a videogame console as a vehicle for Windows Media Center. Hell you can even say that Apple is doing this as well. Look at their Airport, AppleTV, time capsule, iTunes integration they are doing the same exact model that Microsoft is doing.
Post by: King of Twitch on January 21, 2008, 08:30:57 AM
Post by: King of Twitch on May 10, 2011, 08:05:11 PM
Microsoft Confirms $8 Billion Deal for Skype
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/05/10/microsoft-nears-possible-8-billion-deal-skype/
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 10, 2011, 09:45:34 PM
Post by: SixthAngel on May 11, 2011, 02:40:18 AM
Post by: MaryJane on May 11, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 11, 2011, 11:12:49 AM
This could actually be a very good thing.
For who?
Post by: Ceric on May 11, 2011, 12:13:23 PM
This could actually be a very good thing. MS isn't doing so great against Android and iOS in the mobile arena, what if they started making Skype phones instead?Intergrate this as another tile WP7. Skype integration with Kinect would make for a cheap Video Conferencing setup. Especially since it be relatively easy to do fun things like replace you with an avatar. Skype based Voip integration into Exchange. Better live co-operative editing in Office. etc. etc.
Post by: Morari on May 11, 2011, 01:33:14 PM
Post by: Ceric on May 11, 2011, 01:51:34 PM
I guess I won't be installing Skype on my netbook any longer. I was already uncomfortable enough running it under Linux, but there really weren't a lot of alternatives at the time. Somehow, I can't see Microsoft continuing to support my preferred platform with Skype. :PYou may not know this but MS actually has a whole linux division. They do a lot of Linux to MS ecosystem stuff. I'm sure whatever flavor of Linux your running has something from that group in their. MS will go where they can make money. If thats Linux, its Linux. If thats OSX, its OSX. Now if Apple would have bought Skype... Yeah fat chance on Apple straight support of Linux, though you could get it to work because OSX is just a *nix. Personally be very surprised if Skype support for different platforms is lessenned by this at all.
Post by: Stogi on May 11, 2011, 02:12:48 PM
It just needs to come to my phone in a meaningful way.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 11, 2011, 02:30:10 PM
Oh ****!!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 11, 2011, 02:57:37 PM
Post by: Stogi on May 11, 2011, 03:36:11 PM
Post by: Morari on May 11, 2011, 03:56:19 PM
I don't think Microsoft would want to pull the plug on Skype for Linux. Its in their best interest that it work on as many platforms as possible, I think. Even if they did, something else would just come along anyway. I remember when AOL purchased ICQ and basically drove it into the ground. At that time ICQ was the number one IM thing, but now its probably one of the least used. That just shows what can happen when a huge company buys something.
I don't think that they will "pull the plug" either. I guarantee that they will redirect focus, however. It'll slowly fade away due to a general lack of support and updates. That's assuming MS doesn't tamper with the setup so bad that no one wants to use it anyway. :P
ICQ is still the only IM client network really worth using, short of setting up your own Jabber server. That said, I haven't used the client itself in years, largely due to the ads. Kopete, Gaim, and Trillian have all offered better client side interfaces for years.
Post by: Ceric on May 11, 2011, 04:01:04 PM
I don't think they'll tamper with it too bad.
Isn't Microsoft Office available for Mac? I don't see why the wouldn't support Linux if that's the case.And a lot of people have always argued its the best version to boot.
Post by: Morari on May 11, 2011, 05:09:44 PM
Post by: Ceric on May 12, 2011, 10:12:42 AM
Post by: Morari on May 12, 2011, 11:50:12 AM
Post by: Ceric on May 12, 2011, 11:54:42 AM
Post by: Morari on May 12, 2011, 12:17:45 PM
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 12, 2011, 02:44:02 PM
Post by: Ceric on May 12, 2011, 02:50:49 PM
Post by: Morari on May 12, 2011, 05:05:30 PM
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 12, 2011, 09:19:28 PM
Post by: Ceric on May 12, 2011, 10:52:26 PM
