Post by: ShreddersDojo on April 28, 2007, 04:48:03 PM
I still love these games, but I just don't have the time to wander around exploring, wondering what I'm missing. And when I need to use a walkthrough, reading and playing at the same time is no fun at all. Which is a shame. The latest Zelda has some cool effects and game play.
These days I'm more into games that you can just pick up and go, and I'm hoping Super Paper Mario is one of 'em, because the demo I saw at a Best Buy made it look cool
.Anyone else in the same boat?
Post by: Mario on April 28, 2007, 04:59:21 PM
Post by: Kairon on April 28, 2007, 05:08:10 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Dirk Temporo on April 28, 2007, 07:54:03 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 28, 2007, 07:57:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
If you think Metroid is RPG/Action, you really should stop playing games altogether.
Don't be mean.
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 28, 2007, 08:13:29 PM
Then again, it's been a while since I've played through.
Fantastic game, though. Zelda and Metroid are two of my favorite series easily, so I could never imagine just giving up on them. I'd forsake playing other games, just to dedicate more time to exploring in these games.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on April 28, 2007, 09:11:32 PM
Post by: Mikintosh on April 28, 2007, 10:20:28 PM
Post by: Kairon on April 28, 2007, 10:28:31 PM
Golden Bugs? I'll collect them all. They make sense: where there's one there's another, there aren't too many of them, they're in major zones, I can see a screen fill up and feel like I'm making progress, I can just ride around listening for their distinctive sound... and I need some rupees early on in the game. GREAT!
...Now that OTHER collection quest... SCREW THAT! I got to the end and didn't feel like going back through the ENTIRE WORLD just looking for the 8 more I somehow, someway missed...
Heart pieces though... Fortune Teller makes those EASY.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: KDR_11k on April 28, 2007, 11:40:22 PM
Post by: the1st_fret on April 29, 2007, 01:18:55 AM
I got about half way, or 2/3rds of the way through TP. But it was long before that, that it stopped being fun and just felt like 'work'. I'm not really into that kinda fantasy stuff. But I picked up Zelda at launch because it was so hyped. Also it didn't look like a typical Zelda so it 'did' look like it was meant to appeal to more gamers, not just Zelda fans. Also the concept of the console is its for everyone so go figure.
I'm exactly the same. I like games that you can just 'play' Resident Evil 4 is the best example of what i'm talking about.
The Wii is a console for everyone. So when I see games coming like Zelda and Metroid, I feel like i'm being punished for not being a Nintendo fan.
I'm a SEGA fan from back in the day, so I can't enjoy an RPG like Zelda, but I can enjoy an RPG like Shenmue.
I am looking forward to paper mario, it does look like a pick up and go kind of game (I loved NSMB) and the puzzles are meant to be simple. There's nothing wrong with hard puzzles (in a game like resident evil 1 where the pace is slow) but in a game like Paper mario where you're running around alot you don't want to stop for a long time to figure out one puzzle. Which was probably my biggest gripe with Zelda.
This also happened with Secret rings - you're running at high speed then you're brought to a crawl by either misplaced enemies or the horribly crippling collision detection. Developers need to think more on the pace of a game and how it plays at said pace.
Gamers like myself are in the worse possible spot. You're not a 'casual gamer' so you don't get all the kicks you should from games like Wii Sports or warioware, but i'm not a Ninty hardcore fan either, so I'm not into the stuff Nintendo are hyping and putting all their effort into like Zelda and Metroid.
Nintendo, you've made the console for everyone. Now make the games for everyone too!
Post by: Shift Key on April 29, 2007, 02:20:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: the1st_fret
Gamers like myself are in the worse possible spot. You're not a 'casual gamer' so you don't get all the kicks you should from games like Wii Sports or warioware, but i'm not a Ninty hardcore fan either, so I'm not into the stuff Nintendo are hyping and putting all their effort into like Zelda and Metroid.
You want Nintendo to make 3rd party games?
Don't worry, there'll be a lot of interesting news when E3 rolls around, from Nintendo and 3rd parties. Casual, hardcore, and the rest will probably find something fun to enjoy.
Personally, I'm hanging out for Super Mario Galaxy. There are some other games along the way but that's the one that grabbed my attention, especially after the average taste that Sunshine left in my mouth. Also Mario Strikers, and the prospects of quick online matches (this depends entirely on how long I am in queues on average - if its too long, it goes onto the Zelda pile).
As for my choice of games, I've definitely moved from the hardcore crowd into the casual crowd. I don't really see myself getting a DS anytime soon for the simple reason that it'll probably just collect dust. Games like Trauma Center and Phoenix Wright caught my eye, but that was the extent of it.
My gaming time has been sacrificed greatly these days by other commitments, and so when I find myself with a bit of time you're more likely to see me playing a bit of Wii Sports instead of Zelda. Maybe that will change down the track, but at the moment I definitely won't sit down for a long gaming session.
Post by: Nintendawg on April 29, 2007, 07:38:44 AM
For me, games like these ones have always been something special to me. I will never forget Ocarina of Time for as long as I live, and that's something I want my kids to experience as well someday.
Getting back on topic here, you decide what works for you in the end. But it does suck to give up something like that.
Post by: Ceric on April 29, 2007, 10:37:47 AM
Now I really want to beat WindWaker because the ending is suppose to be great but I can't find my copy of the game and I'll have to start from scratch again. That game needed less water and more dungeons.
Post by: Kairon on April 29, 2007, 11:55:10 AM
Actually, I think I'm in a very unique position to provide perspective here. I happen to straddle multiple camps of gaming. I'm a non-gamer (I just discovered the MAGIC that is Picross, and am a proud owner of Cooking Mama) AND a hardcore gamer (Just ask Golden Phoenix, apparently I am a Halo/GTA/GearsOfWar/GodOfWar/TooHuman lover or something like that) AND a casual gamer (Did you see that new Harry Potter Trailer? OMG DROOLZ!!!).
And I've actually cut waaaay back on my gaming time even starting in High School. On hours per week playing... I have trouble thinking of any excuse to not check the "less than 4 hours a week" option. (Does the Everybody Votes channel count as playing?) And let's face it. I suck. I could put 100 hours into a game and STILL not beat it. I've given up trying to beat games on many occasions just because I've accepted reality.
And that's my secret, actually. Who says that you need to "beat" games in order to enjoy them, in order to play them, in order to get your money's worth? That's a lie, that's a psychological fallacy we have, a false dichotomy. I can have fun at games, be happy, consider myself a gamer and STILL not beat them! I mean, how many people beat GTA:SA? Not many I bet you, and they don't consider the game, or themselves, failures. They got what they wanted out of the game: they played it, enjoyed it, and treasured the time they had before they had to move on.
The measure of a gamer isn't how many games he beats, or if he beats any at all. It isn't how many hours a week she usually gets to play. Those are lies invented by Ub3R-pnw-N00|3-1337 heads who need to create an exclusive club for themselves in order to feel validated. SCREW beating Mario Sunshine (I never did, But I watched my younger brother do it), I enjoyed that game all the same. SCREW beating StarCraft (I always get stuck in RTS games), it doesn't mean I don't love the game and Blizzard to death.
A REAL gamer is measured by how much fun they have. Period.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Artimus on April 29, 2007, 12:41:07 PM
Post by: The Omen on April 29, 2007, 12:42:08 PM
So no, you're not alone.
Post by: oohhboy on April 29, 2007, 02:30:07 PM
I can't play a game without finishing it. I find the time for it if I am busy, even if it is only a couple of hours. I don't feel good about leaving a game unfinished, it is like leaving a job half done. It's just not done. It allows me to get maximum utility out of my games. I feel more satisfied because it was hard, not just to play, but to get to play.
So man up you pansies. I am not asking you to go do everything in a game, I don't do that. Just concentrate on the main quest and be done with it.
Kairon, your just playing the game up to the point of maximum marginal utility. Just because you get less enjoyment of of the next hour of play doesn't mean you should stop there. Knowing that the game has an ending should be more than enough to say I can do this. None of these games are WOW. That game is a true evil in this world. I would know, I have delivered pizzas to them. Not a pretty sight.
Post by: Kairon on April 29, 2007, 04:08:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
Kairon, your just playing the game up to the point of maximum marginal utility. Just because you get less enjoyment of of the next hour of play doesn't mean you should stop there. Knowing that the game has an ending should be more than enough to say I can do this.
Games are entertainment. They're ALL about maximum utility oohhboy!
Anyways, I'm not against beating games. I'm against feeling the need to beat a game just to beat it. If you really want to see the ending then that's a good reason to keep playing. But if you've completely lost interest in what the ending holds, then there's no reason to keep playing past the point where it's no logner fun is there?
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: ShreddersDojo on April 29, 2007, 04:47:52 PM
. Like another poster, I had gotten at about 40-50% in the main quest in January. I had not picked it up again until April 9th. I'm the kind of guy who likes to play one game at a time... Plus, it's also tough to remember where you left off and what you where in the middle of doing.Where as in the original Zelda, I can still beat it within a few days if I push it ).
Post by: mottsc on April 29, 2007, 05:14:18 PM
Post by: oohhboy on April 29, 2007, 05:25:03 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on April 29, 2007, 05:54:52 PM
Post by: ShreddersDojo on April 30, 2007, 02:32:19 AM
Post by: Ceric on April 30, 2007, 05:32:10 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on April 30, 2007, 06:59:32 AM
Me? I'm like the opposite. As I have less time to play games I can see myself eventually getting to the point where Zelda and Metroid are ALL I ever play. That's like a game a year or at worst every two years which is fine for someone with a full time job and other interests. Someday I'll have a wife and kids too so that one Zelda game for the whole year will be nice.
There are long-winded games that I get bored of but they aren't Zelda and Metroid. They're RPGs that pad the game with filler like level grinding. In Zelda I'm usually doing something instead of going through the motions to get to parts where I actually progress in the game again.
I haven't beaten Twilight Princess yet. I've beaten the last normal dungeon and just have to go after the last boss now. Often with games like this I lose interest at this point because there isn't really anything left to do. I've explored the whole world and have all the items and abilities and all that's left is to see the ending. With Zelda and Metroid discovering the world is what I'm interested in and once it's just the boss that's left I don't have anything left I'm really interested in. I'll get around to it one day though just to add a title to the list of games I've beaten.
Post by: odifiend on April 30, 2007, 07:54:47 AM
Post by: Ceric on April 30, 2007, 08:11:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
You know what would be awesome? If you could just buy a game that played itself. Since everyone is so busy, make these self-playing games 90 minutes to 2 hours long. We could leave them on DVD! They could have extras but we'll make them accessible from the menu so you don't have to work for them.
Oh you mean like Advent Children?
Believe it or not I really do like meaty games. I just don't like pointless games. I game can turn pointless. Zelda TP is a good example. I was driven to continue on to the point that I replayed the first 20 hours of the game because of a Wii problem. I enjoyed it and my poor wife had to endure. Then I got to a point where I was just backtracking with no purpose or story except to end the game. Then the game became pointless to me and the gameplay was not so engaging to override that. Trauma Center was similar but that one was it was a good ride through the whole DS parts,I beat all of it in normal, then I got to the Wii exlcusive chapters and well it was just more harder versions of the same and that story didn't compell plus the time to accomplishment ratio on that was skewed for me.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 30, 2007, 08:15:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
You know what would be awesome? If you could just buy a game that played itself. Since everyone is so busy, make these self-playing games 90 minutes to 2 hours long. We could leave them on DVD! They could have extras but we'll make them accessible from the menu so you don't have to work for them.
You talking about Final Fantasy XII? :p
Post by: IceCold on April 30, 2007, 10:00:50 AM
QuoteBut in Twilight Princess it literally spelled out where you should go on the map. I could see you having trouble with going to Telma's bar if you forgot that she told you to at Kakariko but before and after that it was pretty straightforward. And Midna usually gave you blatant hints, too.
What I would like even better, is a 'cheat' function if you would. An arrow points you to where you need to go next in a main quest....and as you walk along, it tells you what you need to do, except in puzzle rooms. That would give games like Zelda tons more replay.
As for me, I don't enjoy Zelda games as much as, say, Mario games. But I still love them. I don't finish them to see the ending, which is usually a good sign. And I don't usually finish all the sidequests and collection quests - only the ones that I enjoy. But, now that I'm deep into TP, I can safely say that it holds up well against other 3D Zeldas. There are some amazing moments / sequences.. The only thing, as someone else noted before, is that the dungeons do seem shorter than usual. Well, later on this is definitely true.
For the person who doesn't enjoy nongames and Zelda and Metroid games, play Jungle Beat! And Super Mario Galaxy when it comes out.
Post by: Kairon on April 30, 2007, 04:16:16 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: KDR_11k on April 30, 2007, 06:46:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: odifiend
You know what would be awesome? If you could just buy a game that played itself. Since everyone is so busy, make these self-playing games 90 minutes to 2 hours long. We could leave them on DVD! They could have extras but we'll make them accessible from the menu so you don't have to work for them.
Progress Quest!
If you want an obnoxious hint giver try Issun from Okami. Press the wrong button and he spells the complete puzzle solution out for you.
Post by: zakkiel on May 01, 2007, 02:12:29 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on May 02, 2007, 01:39:50 AM
Post by: ShreddersDojo on May 02, 2007, 05:51:58 AM
.Lets say you defeat a boss. our Shadow friend tells you where to go next. OK, you're there. So, now what direction? Sometimes in the 3D world, especially in rocky areas, I can spend a good ten minutes trying to figure out which way to go. If you're lasting this long wandering around, an arrow or a path can light up on a more detailed version of the map showing you where to go next. It would ignore side quest directions unless it's important to the game.
This would also be helpful if you put the game down for months at a time like I do and can't remember where in a dungeon you have to backtrack to, or what have you. That's one reason why I always try to complete dungeons before saving/turning it off. As far as games like Metroid, they could have the above, and something could say, 'There is a life tank in this area somewhere...' 'there is a missile upgrade in this area somewhere..' etc. This is just my personal opinion, but I think it would give these longer games much more replay value. Argue away!
Post by: KDR_11k on May 02, 2007, 06:11:32 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 02, 2007, 06:26:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
You know what I really would like is if games consistently made the ending worth it. The ultimate test of my skills with a great wrap up. Saddly many games just don't do that today.
Ironic how TP doesn't deliver on either regard!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 02, 2007, 06:48:55 AM
So you want games that are supposed to rely on puzzle solving and figuring out what to do to tell you exactly what to do? Well f*ck why don't I just create a Mario game where all jumps are handled for me? Doing something like that would make Zelda a linear action game. Figuring out what to do is the whole f*cking point of Zelda. Take that away and the game is nothing. If you don't want a challenge load up Gamefaqs.
I do like the idea of having some way to recall what needs to be done after not playing the game for a few months but stuff like that is often already in place. Plus most games totally hold your hand already if you let them. There's no need to make things easier when half of these games are total pushovers anyway.
Post by: Ceric on May 02, 2007, 07:06:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
You know what I really would like is if games consistently made the ending worth it. The ultimate test of my skills with a great wrap up. Saddly many games just don't do that today.
Ironic how TP doesn't deliver on either regard!
And Half Life 2.
I have to agree about the arrow sometimes. I was playing FFIII, not the best example but its fresh in mind, and their/there/they're were some places where because of the 3D elements you could tell that the walls were split a little and you where suppose to walk through that. I run into a number of those types of things where it was obviously not part of a puzzle just bad design.
Post by: the1st_fret on May 02, 2007, 10:24:46 AM
I think 'intuitiveness' is a big part of my point as well. Zelda had me coming away frustrated almost every time. As did Red Steel. But i'm guess i'm judging too early as all these games are firsts on wii with the new controls. I'll be more inerested in checking out the sequels that are designed from the ground up for Wii and with some experience in the control mechanisms.
Post by: Mikintosh on May 02, 2007, 12:29:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: the1st_fret
Speaking as a hardcore game gone 'Hardcore-Casual' My point was, the Wii is a very popular system. And there are going to be alot of people out there who are disapponted with how the games aren't as easy to pick up as the console is. Fair enough if TP had stayed on the gamecube. But with it being on the Wii, it wasn't at all like I expected. I expected hardcore games to have a more casual approach, or to be reinvented to give them new life. Like Resident Evil 4 did. And they're just about to do it again with Umbrella Chronicles.
I think 'intuitiveness' is a big part of my point as well. Zelda had me coming away frustrated almost every time. As did Red Steel. But i'm guess i'm judging too early as all these games are firsts on wii with the new controls. I'll be more inerested in checking out the sequels that are designed from the ground up for Wii and with some experience in the control mechanisms.
But...you had to have known the Wii version was identical, right? They barely had time to port the game at all before the launch, it's not like they could have redesigned it.
To chime in with the whining, I've had to use player's guides for almost every game I've played past Donkey Kong, including all the 3D Zeldas. And yet I'm still satisfied because I'm actually playing the game; I don't have the kind of pride that forces me to spend hours of my life figuring out a puzzle when I can just move on. Actually, one of the reasons I've grown so annoyed at Super Mario Sunshine is that I'm barely halfway through it after 5 years, and that's with the player's guide. I think that's too deep a difficulty for a Mario game.
Post by: Ceric on May 03, 2007, 03:19:24 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on May 03, 2007, 05:06:24 AM
Why should every game on the Wii be designed for casuals? There are tons of pick-up-and-play games so let Zelda be Zelda. I can't think of any console where every game was designed for one audience.
This whole thing reminds me of Metroid Prime Hunters. Too many people didn't like Metroid Prime because it played like a Metroid game and instead of finding a DIFFERENT game to play that made a big stink about how Metroid should be changed to suit them instead of Metroid fans and for some reason Nintendo actually went along with them. If you don't like Zelda as is then go find something else. Why ruin Zelda for the Zelda fans because YOUR tastes changed.
Post by: Ceric on May 03, 2007, 05:33:22 AM
Quote
"Speaking as a hardcore game gone 'Hardcore-Casual' My point was, the Wii is a very popular system. And there are going to be alot of people out there who are disapponted with how the games aren't as easy to pick up as the console is."
I didn't even notice that the first read.
So the games need to be really difficult to pick up and play, correct? Must read the manual first games no in-game tutorials. :P
Post by: vudu on May 03, 2007, 07:04:21 AM
QuoteIf you were able to successfully collect all the Blue Coins by yourself my hat is off to you, good sir.
Originally posted by: Ceric
lol. Mario Sunshine was the first Mario game I fully beated without help.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 03, 2007, 08:21:08 AM
The Wii is easier to pickup than the ps3.
ps3 is HEAVY.
Post by: Ceric on May 03, 2007, 11:21:45 AM
Quote
The Wii is easier to pickup than the ps3.
ps3 is HEAVY.
I thought about that approach too. I want for availability instead.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 03, 2007, 12:05:36 PM
The problem with the blue coins is that there wasn't a counter to keep track of how many you had found. So if you went back to a level after not playing it for a long time you didn't remember if you had found them all already. It was like if someone hid marbles throughout a mansion and told you to find them all without giving you any idea of how many marbles there were in the first place or how many each room had.
Post by: Kairon on May 03, 2007, 12:36:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"If you were able to successfully collect all the Blue Coins by yourself my hat is off to you, good sir."
The problem with the blue coins is that there wasn't a counter to keep track of how many you had found. So if you went back to a level after not playing it for a long time you didn't remember if you had found them all already. It was like if someone hid marbles throughout a mansion and told you to find them all without giving you any idea of how many marbles there were in the first place or how many each room had.
Which is a GREAT example of how AWESOME bug collecting was in Zelda:TP and how UTTERLY DISCOURAGING collecting Poes is. Poes just has a counter up to 60, but there's no way to know how many are in each zone or even where to start looking for them. In contrast, we know that there were only 2 bugs in each zone, so once you came across one, you knew there would be another one in the same zone, and you'd know which zones you hadn't found one in yet, and which zones you haven't found 'em both in, and etc.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ceric on May 03, 2007, 02:01:28 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on May 09, 2007, 11:42:38 AM
Twighlight Princess really isn't a good example of Wii games anyway, since it was designed as a GameCube game and then reimagined as a Wii game. The next Zelda will probably be more in line with the idea of simplifying hardcore games...but at the same time, "simplifying hardcore games" may be a paradox. When a company wants to make a 50-hour game that never gets "old", it has to build more and more complexity in, to the point where it's not really possible for that game to be easy to play. Imagine 50 hours of Wii Sports matches.
Which brings us to the original point: the huge hardcore games are getting too long for some of us. Others accuse us of being pansies or whatever, and you know what? Maybe we need different games for different people.
Post by: Mario on May 09, 2007, 06:06:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"If you were able to successfully collect all the Blue Coins by yourself my hat is off to you, good sir."
The problem with the blue coins is that there wasn't a counter to keep track of how many you had found. So if you went back to a level after not playing it for a long time you didn't remember if you had found them all already. It was like if someone hid marbles throughout a mansion and told you to find them all without giving you any idea of how many marbles there were in the first place or how many each room had.
Huh? Didn't you just press Z? It tells you exactly how many you've found in each level.
Post by: Galford on May 09, 2007, 06:24:06 PM
Even a few years ago this thread would have been "gamers vs. non-gamers" or a group of gamers defending their favorite console.
Today thanks to Nintendo we have "casual gamers", "hardcore gamers" and "casual hardcore gamers"??? WTF?
Is this the price we are paying for videogames to go mainstream?
Post by: Kairon on May 09, 2007, 07:27:31 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on May 09, 2007, 07:52:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Galford
You know what's really weird about this thread, it shows how divided gamers have become as a community.
Even a few years ago this thread would have been "gamers vs. non-gamers" or a group of gamers defending their favorite console.
Today thanks to Nintendo we have "casual gamers", "hardcore gamers" and "casual hardcore gamers"??? WTF?
Is this the price we are paying for videogames to go mainstream?
You managed to use hardcore in 3 separate posts basically about the same thing. Congrats!
Post by: Mikintosh on May 10, 2007, 12:38:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"If you were able to successfully collect all the Blue Coins by yourself my hat is off to you, good sir."
The problem with the blue coins is that there wasn't a counter to keep track of how many you had found. So if you went back to a level after not playing it for a long time you didn't remember if you had found them all already. It was like if someone hid marbles throughout a mansion and told you to find them all without giving you any idea of how many marbles there were in the first place or how many each room had.
Also exactly what I can't finish/hate Banjo-Kazooie; it'll say how many Jiggies you have, but not which ones you've gotten yet, like Super Mario 64 did. I still don't see why two games that came after that one actually regress in terms of interface features like that.
Assuming TP is about the same difficulty as Ocarina, I wouldn't qualify that as "casual-hardcore," which makes no sense. It's just a game, falling nicely between the two extreme categories. It's struggling on the Wii because it doesn't fit the way the system's being marketed, though it's doing well on the Gamecube because that's where it makes more sense. I'll bet if the Wii wasn't going to launch until sometime in 2007, Nintendo would never have ported TP over. It was only offered up on the new system because they needed a big title at the start that wasn't made for Grandpa and Lil Susie to play (not that that's a bad thing) in order to pacify the Internet people who would've flamed Nintendo without it.
Man, it is too early to be writing sentences.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 10, 2007, 06:40:06 AM
I think they added that to the PAL version. I remember hearing something about putting a counter in after people complained. If it's in the North American one then I'm a doofus because I never knew about it.
Post by: MODE_RED on May 10, 2007, 08:13:37 AM
