Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 10, 2007, 09:03:57 AM
Games Radar has posted an editorial about the top 7 mistakes Nintendo has ever done. Here's the editorial.
Guess what made number 7...
That's right, in their eyes the Wii is a mistake.
The editorial is full of cynical assumptions. The system is barely 5 months old and they are already hailing as a potential mistake. Hell, not even Ian, Mantidor and Pittboi could come up with such negative views on the system.
The Wii is already outselling the PS3 and is bound to take over the 360 in a year. The support is very strong at the moment and even when the system is extremely hard to find it sells well over 200,000 systems a month. I doubt its just a fad.
But I'm not that worried, since I remember that the DS was considered a fad and a childish gimmick. Millions of DSs later and I am still waiting for the fad to end.
And don't even get me started on the N64 rant. I agree that the system was full of flaws and Nintendo made a lot of mistakes, but it was home to some of the best and most influential games ever.
Post by: Kairon on April 10, 2007, 09:09:52 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ceric on April 10, 2007, 09:13:18 AM
Quote
Five years from now, when the PS4 and NextBox show up, they're going to jump in hardware power again. And then Nintendo's left with a machine that looks two generations old instead of one
I stopped reading right there. For 2 reasons.
1) Nintendo never said that they would not release a new console in 5 years. In fact they imply the opposite.
2) Sony on the other hand has stated before that they like to get 10 years out of the PS3.
Post by: Strell on April 10, 2007, 09:53:46 AM
If you honestly think there's nothing that can be added to the control scheme, you're off your nut. I can think of a few ideas myself, which means someone over at Nintendo has to be thinking of stuff themselves.
Post by: King of Twitch on April 10, 2007, 09:55:11 AM
Demoralizing potential new Wii owners is their best hope to catch up at the moment, the same way "Gamecube could be Nintendo's last system" worked last time around.
Post by: Rhoq on April 10, 2007, 10:13:32 AM
#7 (Wii) was a "What-If?" - They didn't say the Wii is a failure. They didn't even suggest it. All they said was that it's too early in the to really know for sure what the future holds for Nintendo's latest console. It did say that the Wii needs a good 2 years before we'll have a clear picture of where it's heading, especially with Nintendo's past history with 3rd party support on their last few consoles.
I also fully agree with them about graphics for the next generation of consoles. Nintendo better be able to match the offerings from Sony and Microsoft otherwise people might not be as receptive the next Wii as they were this time around, since the uniqueness of the current system would no longer be able to make up for it's other limitations when compared to the competition.
Post by: ryancoke on April 10, 2007, 10:31:37 AM
1. The Wii: ok this one is complete BS. the Wii in no way should be considdered a mistake. Even if sales level off, it will still be considered a sucessful system.
2. The virtual Boy: I think we can all agree that this baby was a total bomb and a terrible system. It's like one of those crazy concept cars that's cool to look at but would never work in the real world.
3. Shunning online gaming: Anybody who says online gaming isn't important today is out of their mind.
4. Censorship: Anybody who bought Morkat Kombat 1 on SNES before they knew about the censorship would be pissed right off. I remember plugging in a game genie code just to turn the "sweat" back to red so it at least looked a little more like the real game.
5. Pissing off 3rd parties. I don't know if 3rd parties were that pissed off. But I think they were turned off by the lack of sales on Nintendo systems. Remember when EA dumped all the sports games for the 'Cube?
6. Nintendo 64: While I love the N64 and thought it was a great system, it definately would have been better with a CD-ROM
7. The Nintendo-Sony-Phillips debacle: Who knows how this would have turned out. If nintendo stuck with Sony maybe things would have totally bombed. Or they could have made the best system in the world. It's impossible to speculate. Based on what's happened, it's probably fair to say that nintendo probably would be better off now if they didn't have to compete with the PS1 and PS2 back in the day.
Post by: ShyGuy on April 10, 2007, 10:33:33 AM
Post by: Jin-X on April 10, 2007, 10:50:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Rhoq
Did I read the same editorial that you guys did?
#7 (Wii) was a "What-If?" - They didn't say the Wii is a failure. They didn't even suggest it. All they said was that it's too early in the to really know for sure what the future holds for Nintendo's latest console. It did say that the Wii needs a good 2 years before we'll have a clear picture of where it's heading, especially with Nintendo's past history with 3rd party support on their last few consoles.
I also fully agree with them about graphics for the next generation of consoles. Nintendo better be able to match the offerings from Sony and Microsoft otherwise people might not be as receptive the next Wii as they were this time around, since the uniqueness of the current system would no longer be able to make up for it's other limitations when compared to the competition.
Please, you don't need 2 years of all the consoles being out to be able to predict who's gonna be on top. Those trends form very quickly and have a snowball effect. Right now the most likely to sell more is the Wii, the PS3 is sleeping with the fishes and the 360 likely second. Waiting 2 years to make a prediction on this is like waiting for the championship team to hold their parade before predicting who's going to be the champion.
As for the graphics; by match do you mean they have to have the same power as the XBX 3 and PS4? If that means $400 consoles as the starting point then no they don't. All they would have to do is match 360 and PS3 if Sony and MS keep doing the high price point thing. And I seriously doubt either of them goes over $400, this generation is teaching Sony that.
I think a lot of gamers are missing a big point. When we talk about "better technology", we always talk about graphics. But to the general population, the Wii has the superior tech, because to most people having virtual hands, bats, tennis rackets, swords, etc; is more impressive than the graphical jump between RE4 and Gears of War.
Post by: Deguello on April 10, 2007, 11:23:32 AM
Check this one out
Makes you think all of this "childish Nintendo" stuff is pure fabrication. Even check out the comments. I swear, sometimes these blogs need to be put in their place, with their weird cult followers, too.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 10, 2007, 11:50:10 AM
Nintendo's biggest mistake is cartidges on the N64. That one decision completely changed the gaming landscape. Nintendo went from being synonomous with videogaming (ie: "playing Nintendo") to struggling for people to even acknowledge their existence. So far the Wii has almost undone that. Nintendo is suddenly relevent again and it's because of the Wii.
What if people get sick of the Wii? Well wait until that happens before declaring the Wii a mistake. At best it's a potential mistake.
I think Nintendo creating the Playstation is overrated in the "what a screw-up" sense. If Nintendo had not gone with cartridges I doubt the Playstation would have been as effective of a competitor. Sony pretty much didn't screw up when Nintendo and Sega did. It was like winning a race against competitors that broke their legs in a car accident on the way to the track. Nintendo "creating" the Playstation is mostly a nifty coincedence.
Post by: Kairon on April 10, 2007, 11:53:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Rhoq
I also fully agree with them about graphics for the next generation of consoles. Nintendo better be able to match the offerings from Sony and Microsoft otherwise people might not be as receptive the next Wii as they were this time around, since the uniqueness of the current system would no longer be able to make up for it's other limitations when compared to the competition.
I remember reading somewhere this guy's gross simplification of the three generation hardware cycle:
1: Innovation, market disruption, weak hardware -> reconquer market (NES, PS)
2: Same thing as before, but now with powerful hardware -> dominate market (SNES, PS2)
3: Still few changes to formula, but expensive, overpowered hardware -> (N64, PS3)
So by this observation, Nintendo WILL have strong graphics next time around, and then two generations from now they'll overdo it and have another fall from grace.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Artimus on April 10, 2007, 12:01:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo's biggest mistake is cartidges on the N64. That one decision completely changed the gaming landscape. Nintendo went from being synonomous with videogaming (ie: "playing Nintendo") to struggling for people to even acknowledge their existence. So far the Wii has almost undone that. Nintendo is suddenly relevent again and it's because of the Wii.
As sad as it is, this is likely true. Though, it's only typical of Sony's previous success that they do what is worst for the player and sell anyway.
Post by: Kairon on April 10, 2007, 12:05:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ArtimusQuote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo's biggest mistake is cartidges on the N64. That one decision completely changed the gaming landscape. Nintendo went from being synonomous with videogaming (ie: "playing Nintendo") to struggling for people to even acknowledge their existence. So far the Wii has almost undone that. Nintendo is suddenly relevent again and it's because of the Wii.
As sad as it is, this is likely true. Though, it's only typical of Sony's previous success that they do what is worst for the player and sell anyway.
It's true, but it's a strange truth... Mario 64 could not have been done on CDs, at least not at that time.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Rhoq on April 10, 2007, 12:12:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's true, but it's a strange truth... Mario 64 could not have been done on CDs, at least not at that time.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Post by: Tanookisuit on April 10, 2007, 12:18:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ryancoke
2. The virtual Boy: I think we can all agree that this baby was a total bomb and a terrible system. It's like one of those crazy concept cars that's cool to look at but would never work in the real world.
I actually love my Virtual Boy. It's one of my favorite systems. It was a total bomb, but a really interesting and very fun system.
Post by: Kairon on April 10, 2007, 12:21:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: RhoqQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's true, but it's a strange truth... Mario 64 could not have been done on CDs, at least not at that time.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Well...
Either we take that statement at face value and assume that load times in those days (on 2X CD drives like the PS') would've destroyed the essence of Mario 64 and, likewise, Mario Kart 64, Star Fox 64, and the huge worlds in Zelda: OoT...
Or we can instead take the statement to mean that Nintendo, and other companies at the time, hadn't achieved the level of streaming ability that would've been required to achieve lower load times on 2X CD Drives, thus resulting in the same effect above.
Both views hinge on the assumption that Miyamoto was right in valuing wide spaces and quick load times in his game design choices. In my opinion, I blame the adherence to the cartridge format on the master himself, for better or for worse...
A direct conflict: the business decision of CDs, or the freedom of a Creator to make what turned out to be the best games of all time? ... And which of those is the short-term, short-sighted decision?
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Artimus on April 10, 2007, 12:21:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: RhoqQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's true, but it's a strange truth... Mario 64 could not have been done on CDs, at least not at that time.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Load/read times.
Post by: UncleBob on April 10, 2007, 03:31:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Games Radar has posted an editorial [...]
Who?
Post by: Djunknown on April 10, 2007, 05:13:29 PM
Quote
Hold B while flicking up to swing a punch?
Can anyone name the game that does this? Is it the GodFather?
Quote
Who knows what other joys he could have brought to this world if he hadn't left the company?
Chances are he'd still be alive, but that's neither here or there as they say...
The offline and MK arguments are sound, but it wasn't like the Genesis version had the blood there from the get-go. You had to put the code in (even though you could look it up in strategy guide, friend, gamer mag..) so at least there was a level of protection...
Quote
Third parties had a constant battle to map controls that made sense onto the controller. It was especially unfriendly to fighting games, so no Tekken, Street Fighter or Soul Edge for us
Hmmm... six face buttons on the N64? Only 4 on the PS? How's that unfriendly? Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat Trilogy anyone?
The number one reason is legitimate through and through, I've had the unfortunate experience of playing Zelda: Wand of Gamelon. Nintendo tried to gyp Sony so we could play that?
Quote
The DS, a seemingly mental design decision, turned out to be the clear winner of the current systems. And Wii, well, if the momentum lasts, Nintendo's got nothing to worry about.
If this were a 1up feature, they wouldn't have put that final line in there. They would bash Nintendo and 'be up out this stank mutha %#$!'...
Post by: oohhboy on April 10, 2007, 07:08:18 PM
The CD advantage of the time was poorly exploited at the time outside of the obvious price difference. Most of the games could have been made to fit inside a N64 cart, but the entire FMV = gameplay ensured that would never happen. The novelty of FMV and CD quality muisc simply overwhelmed gameplay considerations. Even now, we still feel the residual effects from that mentaity with lenghty cutscenes and fake gameplay videos.
The Virtual Boy was an absolute bomb. But it's actual damage was limited. By dying a really quick death, for most people it was only a distraction. The greatest lost was the man behind it. You can't buy loyalty of individual people. There is always someone else who can offer more. I am positive that Shiggy has had countless offers to defect. Gunpei Yokoi, IMO, had taken his failure at a very personal level. I don't think even if he was allowed to stay he would have. I wouldn't have able look at my co-workers in the eye.
The N64 controller, I can't see what so bad about it, other than the fact you couldn't access everyone of the controls from any one position. It allowed FPSs to be playable in full 3D on a console. Rumble, analodge.
Online, yeah that is fubar.
Most of the points in the artical, while valid, were mostly for the wrong reasons, or weighted incorrectly.
Post by: Ceric on April 11, 2007, 03:32:44 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on April 11, 2007, 04:09:34 AM
7. The Wii
This is just a sensational claim to try and suck people into the article.
6. The Virtual Boy
No list of Nintendo's mistakes is complete without Virtual Boy. That said, I agree with others who argue that it didn't have a big impact on Nintendo overall - Game Boy continued to be popular. I'd argue N64 and maybe even GameCube were bigger problems for Nintendo's business as a whole. Definitely worth mentioning, but its overall impact was small.
5. Online gaming
There's no doubt that Microsoft dominates the online console game market. There's also no doubt that PS2 outsold not only the original Xbox, but also continues to outsell the Xbox 360! I'm not saying online gaming is unimportant, but there's one feature on the console market that is definitely moving systems right now and it's not online gaming - it's wand-waggling.
Online gaming is important, and Nintendo isn't denying that. Maybe it should be pursuing a more full-featured, convenient online model, but, again, I point out that such a model is not getting Microsoft anywhere right now.
4. Censorship
This was definitely a problem for Nintendo back in the day. The company's "kidsie" image still hounds it to this day, to the point where a lot of people still assume that games like RE4 are being censored by the big N. On the other hand, Nintendo's family friendly approach is currently allowing it to score big hits with products like Nintendogs, Brain Age and Wii Sports.
Still, Nintendo's one-time censoship had a major impact on its last three consoles and its image in general.
3. Third parties
I'd argue that this is the best point in the article. People think Square moved to Sony because Sony had CDs. If so, why didn't Square move to Sega Saturn instead? Answer: Nintendo and Sega were both raping third parties with massive liscensing fees (hyperbole, much?
) not to mention various censorship and other third party control issues Nintendo had. Sony knew this was a weak point for Sega and Nintendo and fully exploited it. No doubt CDs helped Sony vs. Nintendo too, but Sony's lower liscencing fees and "do what you want" attitude made a difference. Ironically Sony is starting to become more restrictive - eg. all PSP games must have exclusive content.
2. Nintendo 64
A lot of the article's points about N64 seem like a rambling fanboy rant. Things like the controller may have been quirky, but I don't think they had a huge impact on Nintendo's sales like the vanishing third party support did.
The lack of CD ROM definitely hurt Nintendo, Square probably wouldn't have switched teams if Nintendo had included CD ROM, and supposedly Square encouraged other third parties to leave as well. As I stated above, I believe there was more to it than just CD ROM, but that was certainly a key point, if not THE key point.
1. Nintendo Snubbing Sony
This is definitely one of the most speculative points: many things could have gone wrong if Nintendo had stayed with Sony...but I must admit that I think N64 could have "taken" Sega Saturn if there'd been no other competition. I think Sony was definitely on the ball with Playstation on several points such as marketing, third party relations and ease of development.
That said, who knows if N64 would have been what it was if Nintendo had gone thorugh with its obligations to Sony? This was a big mistake, but who knows what was down the other path?
Post by: Artimus on April 11, 2007, 04:47:22 AM
Post by: Plugabugz on April 11, 2007, 06:10:04 AM
Post by: Kairon on April 11, 2007, 07:10:05 AM
Especially with the decision to split with Sony, sure Nintendo "lost" the next two generations (but remained profitable, innovative, and continued to make the best games around), but with as bad as that contract with Sony was, it's easy to wonder just how much worse it could have been for Nintendo if they HADN'T had made that "mistake."
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 11, 2007, 07:17:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
All in all, these mistakes have made Nintendo the company it is today, taught important lessons, and ultimately made them a stronger company, not a weaker one.
Especially with the decision to split with Sony, sure Nintendo "lost" the next two generations (but remained profitable, innovative, and continued to make the best games around), but with as bad as that contract with Sony was, it's easy to wonder just how much worse it could have been for Nintendo if they HADN'T had made that "mistake."
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
It is my personal belief that EVERYTHING we do in life has a purpose. Both the correct choices and the mistakes play heavily into the type of person we become. The same holds true to companies.
Now that you mentioned that, if it wasn't for the mistakes the article mentioned, as well as what happened to Nintendo with the N64 and Gamecube, would we have gotten the DS and the Wii?
Nintendo has stated that one of the reasons behind the creation of the Wii and the DS was because they were tired if catching up to the other guys and decided to do their own thing. And that decision flourished because of the failures and mistakes that happened during the N64 and GC eras.
Also, would the Wii and DS be getting great third party support if Nintendo hadn't realized that their strict and anal requirements for game developing was hurting their relationships with other companies?
So everything Nintendo has done, and that includes mistakes, has served a purpose in shaping Nintendo into what it is today.
Post by: Kairon on April 11, 2007, 07:32:29 AM
You know, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and all that jazz. And of course, in full 20/20 hindsight, some mistakes are really fortuitous.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: couchmonkey on April 11, 2007, 08:30:18 AM
I think a lot of people feel that Nintendo "half-assed" the GameCube: the system was over a year late compared to PS2, many of Nintendo's sequels weren't up to par, Nintendo gave up most of its second party relationships, there was no real online gaming in place, Nintendo refused to spring for things like FMV and voice acting, the Cube was goofy looking, etc, etc.
Some of these points are debatable, for example we all know a lot of fans are strongly against voice acting in games like Zelda, but the point is that things like that were par for the course on PS2 and Xbox - Nintendo was unwilling to keep up with the Joneses.
But what if Nintendo had kept up with the Joneses? Would that have been enough to beat N64? What about PS2? And even if it was enough to improve Nintendo's lot in the industry, where would that leave Wii? We'd probably have a third overpriced muscle-console being outsold by PS2 each month.
Post by: UERD on April 11, 2007, 05:08:16 PM
Even so, Nintendo is probably the company best-suited for innovating their way out of ruts. If Sony really does fall to last place this generation, I really cannot see them coming back to the top anytime soon, especially through the development of a revolutionary new innovation in technology (as opposed to gradual improvements to existing hardware).
"New, for 2015! The PS4! $13,000, with optional gold trim and built-in leather seats! Graphics indistinguishable from real life! DualShock XVIII controller included (now wireless!) Hurry now, we're only making 15,000 of them before the lines CLOSE FOREVER!!!"
Post by: Deguello on April 11, 2007, 06:30:28 PM
Quote
If Nintendo had been in Sony's position last generation, I seriously doubt they would have risked as much with a radical paradigm shift that could have potentially tanked the system.
But UERD, they did actually do that. The GBA was the undisputed champ and instead of playing it safe with a GBA2 like the PSP they innovated.
Post by: Kairon on April 11, 2007, 06:34:09 PM
Actually, the DS was the beginning of a Nintendo pre-emptive strike to respond to the shrinking Japanese game market... so you can't say that they were totally un-impelled to innovate, it's just that Nintendo was lucky enough to be able to read the writing on the wall and act before their precious GBA was staked through the heart.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 11, 2007, 06:43:44 PM
Post by: Plugabugz on April 11, 2007, 08:59:42 PM
They also have been waxing lyrical over GTA IV for days, even to the point of analysing the trailer and comparing the visual detail and its differences to new york.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 12, 2007, 06:27:33 AM
I've never understand any backlash against the N64 controller. The innovations it introduced changed controller standards. And the good N64 games all controlled like a dream. Some people were confused at first but no one complained once they played Super Mario 64. I think any hating on the N64 controller is either based on modern points of view (ie: the analog stick has been better implemented since) or just general N64 bashing. I actually find the N64 pretty damn impressive all things considering. Nintendo really handcuffed themselves but still managed to stay in number two and make some of the best games ever made. They were f*cked from day one but they really seemed to try.
I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes. They're doing so well with the Wii because they noticed a problem in Japan that no one else did and took the steps to avoid it. They did that with their portable which was number one and with their console which was dead last so I figure that regardless of where either system was they would have gone with the DS and the Wii. I don't see some new and improved Nintendo. I see the same Nintendo with the same weaknesses and problems only now they've tapped a large chunk of new market. That had made their userbase larger and everything has snowballed from there. They never lost the portable crown but I think a big part of that is that no one ever challenged them in a way that attacked Nintendo's weakness or exploited their shortcomings. It's not like portable Nintendo was a different company than console Nintendo. It's just that in one market they screwed up too big at the wrong time when a competitor was in the perfect position to take advantage and in the other market that's never happened.
I think Nintendo is still in a position where it could all happen again. The right competitor could still steal it all with the right timing. Nintendo still seems capable of the same kind of mistakes. Now they're safe for now but I don't think they've learned much. But then big corporations rarely do.
It's still not as bad as Sony since they have actually changed for the worst. They didn't learn from Nintendo's mistakes which were the very things they exploited to get on top in the first place.
Post by: Ceric on April 12, 2007, 07:13:15 AM
Post by: Kairon on April 14, 2007, 07:01:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Things like the controller may have been quirky, but I don't think they had a huge impact on Nintendo's sales"
I've never understand any backlash against the N64 controller. The innovations it introduced changed controller standards. And the good N64 games all controlled like a dream. Some people were confused at first but no one complained once they played Super Mario 64. I think any hating on the N64 controller is either based on modern points of view (ie: the analog stick has been better implemented since) or just general N64 bashing. I actually find the N64 pretty damn impressive all things considering. Nintendo really handcuffed themselves but still managed to stay in number two and make some of the best games ever made. They were f*cked from day one but they really seemed to try.
I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes. They're doing so well with the Wii because they noticed a problem in Japan that no one else did and took the steps to avoid it. They did that with their portable which was number one and with their console which was dead last so I figure that regardless of where either system was they would have gone with the DS and the Wii. I don't see some new and improved Nintendo. I see the same Nintendo with the same weaknesses and problems only now they've tapped a large chunk of new market. That had made their userbase larger and everything has snowballed from there. They never lost the portable crown but I think a big part of that is that no one ever challenged them in a way that attacked Nintendo's weakness or exploited their shortcomings. It's not like portable Nintendo was a different company than console Nintendo. It's just that in one market they screwed up too big at the wrong time when a competitor was in the perfect position to take advantage and in the other market that's never happened.
I think Nintendo is still in a position where it could all happen again. The right competitor could still steal it all with the right timing. Nintendo still seems capable of the same kind of mistakes. Now they're safe for now but I don't think they've learned much. But then big corporations rarely do.
It's still not as bad as Sony since they have actually changed for the worst. They didn't learn from Nintendo's mistakes which were the very things they exploited to get on top in the first place.
Good points, Ian. I can't argue against this viewpoint: it seems quite valid. Who knows if Iwata has just steered Nintendo in a different direction, or has changed Nintendo somewhere fundamentally?
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: that Baby guy on April 14, 2007, 07:09:36 AM
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2007, 07:13:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBobQuote
Originally posted by: pap64
Games Radar has posted an editorial [...]
Who?
This thread is still the first time I'd ever heard of this website... am I the only one? I mean, I know there are a *lot* of gaming web sites that I don't visit on a regular basis (or at all), but I'm familiar with most of the major ones... or so I thought.
Post by: Artimus on April 14, 2007, 08:36:28 AM
Are there still mistakes? Yes. But they have changed a lot in major ways.
Post by: AwesomeMan on April 16, 2007, 04:47:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: RhoqQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's true, but it's a strange truth... Mario 64 could not have been done on CDs, at least not at that time.
Interesting. Can you elaborate?
Both views hinge on the assumption that Miyamoto was right in valuing wide spaces and quick load times in his game design choices. In my opinion, I blame the adherence to the cartridge format on the master himself, for better or for worse...
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Panzer Dragoon Saga had pretty wide spaces from what i remember, not sure if they're as big or bigger than M64 since i don't like that game, but they are pretty big.
Post by: couchmonkey on April 16, 2007, 06:26:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes. They're doing so well with the Wii because they noticed a problem in Japan that no one else did and took the steps to avoid it. They did that with their portable which was number one and with their console which was dead last so I figure that regardless of where either system was they would have gone with the DS and the Wii. I don't see some new and improved Nintendo. I see the same Nintendo with the same weaknesses and problems only now they've tapped a large chunk of new market. That had made their userbase larger and everything has snowballed from there. They never lost the portable crown but I think a big part of that is that no one ever challenged them in a way that attacked Nintendo's weakness or exploited their shortcomings. It's not like portable Nintendo was a different company than console Nintendo. It's just that in one market they screwed up too big at the wrong time when a competitor was in the perfect position to take advantage and in the other market that's never happened.
I believe Nintendo was in a much better position to see this problem because it had been losing space in the home console market for years.
We talk about GBA being number 1, yes, but how many times did we hear dire predictions of Nintendo going third party based entirely on the weakness of its home console market? The success of the Game Boy line was always the silver lining on the dark storm cloud*. Everyone wanted to know: What's wrong with Nintendo? Why can't it fix the problems of N64 and GameCube?
I really believe Nintendo was asking itself those questions and I believe DS was the first experiment to try and turn things around. Remember how careful Nintendo was not to sully the Game Boy name? This was a "third pillar". If DS had not taken off, I'm sure we'd have a fairly traditional Game Boy follow-up on the market right now, but the truth is the Game Boy "pillar" is falling and unless Nintendo resurrects it for nostalgia's sake, we'll probably never see another Game Boy-branded system.
I guess the question is, "would Nintendo have cared about Japan's shrinking market if GameCube was number 1?" I think the answer is yes, but not enough to take the huge gamble that DS and Wii presented at first.
Ian, I'd love to hear what you think Nintendo's ongoing mistakes are. I think there are a few but I'm not certain how important any of them are. The company can be cheap, but that's arguably what kept it alive through the lean years. Nintendo could also expand its lineup a bit - "family friendly" is good, but it wouldn't kill the company to cater to more mature/macho tastes a bit.
*sorry about waxing poetic, I got all excited.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 16, 2007, 07:29:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't agree with this "Nintendo mistakes made them who they are today" stuff because I don't think Nintendo had learned much from their past mistakes.
That's pretty faulty logic, Ian.
Nintendo is in the position they're in because they HAVE learned from their mistakes.
Mistake #1: 3rd parties hate Nintendo's guts
Solution: Iwata is a diplomat first and foremost. Also, he himself IS a former game developer and as such he can most easily relate to the challenges devs face. I think that it is absolutely pertinent that the head chair at Nintendo be filled by someone who has at one point developed games themselves.
The lengths Nintendo has gone through to aid 3rd parties in developing for their console are vast and many, from lowering licensing fees to making Wii devkits under $5,000 to lowering the bar for newer devs when it comes to licensing them, Nintendo is making a HUGE effort to see to it that bringing games to their consoles is as easy as possible.
Mistake #2: The GC is a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest
Solution: Start throwing punches. Rather than try to beat Sony and MS at their own game, a game which Nintendo outright lacks the resources to win, Nintendo changed their console and differentiated themselves so much that you can't even file them in the same category anymore. This not only forced customers to think about them differently but it also forced devs to do the same, resulting in better review scores for games like Godfather on Nintendo hardware, something which was previously unheard of.
To say Nintendo didn't learn from their mistakes is ignoring all of the changes they've made in direct response to their previous failures. Right now, 3rd parties are loving the Wii, both in terms of developing for it and selling assloads of games on it, and the fact that the Wii is the cheapest to develop for AND will soon have the highest installed worldwide userbase ensures that even if Sony and MS bring out their own motion-sensing controllers, it won't change the fact that the Wii will still get the lion's share of games because it costs so much less to develop for.
