Post by: Artimus on April 03, 2007, 07:25:42 PM
How can anyone stand this?
Post by: IceCold on April 03, 2007, 08:03:19 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on April 03, 2007, 08:19:16 PM
/thread
Post by: Artimus on April 03, 2007, 08:29:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
It's lasted three generations because your opinion is in the extreme minority.
/thread
So why are people so delusional?
Post by: Shorty McNostril on April 03, 2007, 08:35:39 PM
Post by: Kairon on April 03, 2007, 08:42:38 PM
... contrastingly, I LURVED the XBox big controller, aside from the 4 action buttons being indistinquishable from each other and being tough to press.
... then I hated the XBox S controller.... but the X360 controller is decent...
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Artimus on April 03, 2007, 08:44:05 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on April 03, 2007, 10:12:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
So why are people so delusional?
Don't know, don't really care! I don't mind it, but I have like eighty PS2 games. Personally I hated the Nintendo 64's controller (they purposely built them to break easily) and the Intellivision's, because.. well...
Oh oh, and the Master System's for its lack of a friggin' pause button. TSK TSK.
Post by: Artimus on April 03, 2007, 10:48:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal MonkeyQuote
Originally posted by: Artimus
So why are people so delusional?
Don't know, don't really care! I don't mind it, but I have like eighty PS2 games. Personally I hated the Nintendo 64's controller (they purposely built them to break easily) and the Intellivision's, because.. well...
Oh oh, and the Master System's for its lack of a friggin' pause button. TSK TSK.
I concur about the quality of the N64 construction. Though it was just the analog stick that sucked and they fixed that for the cube. Key word being fix. The DualShock wouldn't be nearly as unexplainable if it weren't thirteen years old.
Post by: oohhboy on April 04, 2007, 12:25:50 AM
Post by: MaryJane on April 04, 2007, 02:58:13 AM
Humans have this strange ability to adapt.
I prefer the GC and Wii controllers over the Xbox and PS ones, but spend enough time with them, and you learn their little nuances and learn to play. The most important thing is the entertainment factor the game provides, getting used to a controller is something anyone can do if they have an open mind.
Isn't that what we tell people about the Wii-mote? Don't hate it because it's different you'll get used to it? There's a much sharper learning curve for the Wii-mote in some games, especially the different control schemes being used in FPS's, and games that require you to use the remote in different ways and utilize it's different functions.
My main complaint about the DualShock would be that the analog stick should be tighter, and in the prominent position. The Xbox controller just took awhile to get used to, but it was I picked up it quicker than the DualShock.
Post by: Arbok on April 04, 2007, 05:05:59 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on April 04, 2007, 05:13:10 AM
Though a sorta good reason for sticking with the design is backwards compatibility. But I don't see why things can't be made a little more ergonomic.
It's a lot like the NES controller. That controller is incredibly uncomfortable. It's a rectangle for crying out loud. But at the time we don't know of anything better. I never heard anyone complain about the NES controller until the SNES came out and we saw how a controller could actually be molded to fit your hands. Then the NES controller became uncomfortable if we were playing on the older system.
The thing I hate the most about the Dualshock is the button names. I have no idea off the top of my head where any of the buttons are because I don't think in shapes. Shapes are arbitrary. Letters or even numbers make sense. I can assume that B will be next to A. Plus it's easier to tell someone playing to press A instead of "press triangle". A three syllable name for a button. Screw that. But this is something that will likely never be addressed because the Playstation userbase is so used to those names.
Post by: couchmonkey on April 04, 2007, 05:31:11 AM
Edit: I like the 360 controller, but the protruding home button is annoying. I wish more controllers would try to differentiate the face buttons, I like to feel which button I'm pressing. Wii kind of eliminates the problem by simply not having that many.
Post by: capamerica on April 04, 2007, 07:38:44 AM
GameCube was my fav and I also liked the Xbox S and the Xbox360 controllers. For me the Xbox S and the Xbox360 controllers are very much like the GameCube, the button layout on all 3 are very similar. Its just the form factor that puts the GameCube ahead of the Xbox.
Post by: Mikintosh on April 04, 2007, 08:31:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The Dualshock has lasted this long purely because most gamers don't know better. There's a whole generation of gamers for which the Playstation was their first videogame system and they have never owned a non-Sony console thus not giving them any perspective. They're ignorant of better controllers so they've adapted to the Dualshock with no problems. And if their userbase is used to it why should Sony change?
Though a sorta good reason for sticking with the design is backwards compatibility. But I don't see why things can't be made a little more ergonomic.
It's a lot like the NES controller. That controller is incredibly uncomfortable. It's a rectangle for crying out loud. But at the time we don't know of anything better. I never heard anyone complain about the NES controller until the SNES came out and we saw how a controller could actually be molded to fit your hands. Then the NES controller became uncomfortable if we were playing on the older system.
From my limited experience with it, I thought the NES controller was kinda fun in a simplistic way. 'Course I don't have very big hands, so it's probably an easier fit.
I think what doesn't make sense about the Dualshock is that 3D games became in vogue not one year after the PS1 came out, and yet they continue to have the control pad in the dominant position, with the control sticks uncomfortable out of reach...even though you're supposed to use them for most PS2 games. Even the PSP perpetuates this, although I think the control stick on that one is in a lot better position.
Post by: ShyGuy on April 04, 2007, 08:51:52 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 04, 2007, 08:57:14 AM
Post by: Ceric on April 04, 2007, 09:25:20 AM
Point 1:
The thing that gets me the most about the DualShock is they use of symbols instead of letters. Wrong side of the brain for me.
Point 2: If you go back in time to the NES days, do yourself a favor and get the Superior NES Max controller. Once you use that you won't want to go back. Actually I wouldn't mind that weird style of d-Pad again.
Point 3: The Dreamcast controller was a lot better then I thought it was.
Point 4: Unfortunately that design has been so ingrained in the gaming psyche that the classic control draws from it. (Hence why I made this series. I really should complete it I have an ending and at least 2 more.)
Post by: Artimus on April 04, 2007, 10:09:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MaryJane
It's all about getting used to things.
Humans have this strange ability to adapt.
I prefer the GC and Wii controllers over the Xbox and PS ones, but spend enough time with them, and you learn their little nuances and learn to play. The most important thing is the entertainment factor the game provides, getting used to a controller is something anyone can do if they have an open mind.
Isn't that what we tell people about the Wii-mote? Don't hate it because it's different you'll get used to it? There's a much sharper learning curve for the Wii-mote in some games, especially the different control schemes being used in FPS's, and games that require you to use the remote in different ways and utilize it's different functions.
My main complaint about the DualShock would be that the analog stick should be tighter, and in the prominent position. The Xbox controller just took awhile to get used to, but it was I picked up it quicker than the DualShock.
But you seem to be insinuating that all controllers are equal. How quick you adapt, however, has nothing to do with it. A new player has no trouble using the Wiimote. Being used to one controller (be it SNES, GCN, PS or XBOX) has nothing to do with the quality of the controller themselves. The DualShock is just badly designed. It was ok back in the PSX days, but since then it has been outdone by almost every new controller.
I've spent enough time with the DualShock to be used to it. I know where the face buttons are (the symbols are stupid, though). My issues, and apparently I am not alone, are to do with the actual design. It's uncomfortable and it's not intuitive or slick to use. Yes you can master it, but you have to overcome shortcomings to do so. You have to learn to deal with problems. That's different than just learning to use the controller.
And something like fighting games, which someone mentioned, is different. The GameCube controller was designed in a way that they knew it wouldn't be ideal for fighting games. That was a choice. It may be a mistake, but it's not an issue with ergonomics it's a design choice. I'd say that's a flaw, but when using it on other games it works exactly how it should. The DualShock doesn't work very well, it has a lot of issues.
But again, the main issue isn't so much the initial design but the fact that the problems have never been fixed. I think the attacks on the boomerang concept were the biggest mistake Sony fans made pre-PS3 release.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 04, 2007, 10:20:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
It's lasted three generations because your opinion is in the extreme minority.
/thread
Nope, thread ends after I say how much the DualShock sucks...Which I just did...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 04, 2007, 10:46:34 AM
Post by: Ceric on April 04, 2007, 11:58:05 AM
Quote
But again, the main issue isn't so much the initial design but the fact that the problems have never been fixed. I think the attacks on the boomerang concept were the biggest mistake Sony fans made pre-PS3 release.
Agree. It was just to easy though. I had a boomerang designed N64 controller. It was a little big but I liked the general design. I probably would have like the Batarang welll enough.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 04, 2007, 12:09:31 PM
I used to agree with this but after the Cube controller I'm a little unsure. I think a d-pad is harder to use if it's off to the side than an analog stick is. The Gamecube's C-stick for example is not hard to use at all. I immediately was able to use it. But having off center d-pads has always been a challenge. I'm beginning to think that maybe the Sony method isn't so bad after all since an off center analog stick is relatively easy to use while a d-pad isn't. If you were designing a standard controller to control all games (except Wii games I suppose) a d-pad in the "main" position might make more sense. The problem with Dualshock's analog stick position isn't so much that it's to the side but just that it isn't ergonomic. A Gamecube controller with the analog sticks in this "Dualshock" style position probably wouldn't be uncomfortable.
But Sony's reasoning for the placement is because they didn't feel like deviating from the original design. Thus any additions to the Playstation controller are placed whereever they fit. So if the d-pad is actually in the best position Sony deserves no credit because they clearly didn't plan for that and just stumbled upon it through laziness. And the Playstation d-pad is complete horsesh!t. It is easily the worst digital movement input for a controller in the post-crash era.
Post by: Artimus on April 04, 2007, 12:18:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I think what doesn't make sense about the Dualshock is that 3D games became in vogue not one year after the PS1 came out, and yet they continue to have the control pad in the dominant position, with the control sticks uncomfortable out of reach...even though you're supposed to use them for most PS2 games."
I used to agree with this but after the Cube controller I'm a little unsure. I think a d-pad is harder to use if it's off to the side than an analog stick is. The Gamecube's C-stick for example is not hard to use at all. I immediately was able to use it. But having off center d-pads has always been a challenge. I'm beginning to think that maybe the Sony method isn't so bad after all since an off center analog stick is relatively easy to use while a d-pad isn't. If you were designing a standard controller to control all games (except Wii games I suppose) a d-pad in the "main" position might make more sense. The problem with Dualshock's analog stick position isn't so much that it's to the side but just that it isn't ergonomic. A Gamecube controller with the analog sticks in this "Dualshock" style position probably wouldn't be uncomfortable.
But Sony's reasoning for the placement is because they didn't feel like deviating from the original design. Thus any additions to the Playstation controller are placed whereever they fit. So if the d-pad is actually in the best position Sony deserves no credit because they clearly didn't plan for that and just stumbled upon it through laziness. And the Playstation d-pad is complete horsesh!t. It is easily the worst digital movement input for a controller in the post-crash era.
The C-stick isn't a fair analogy. You couldn't use it as a regular analog stick. And the GameCube's problem is the D-pad's size and sensitivity, not the placement.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 04, 2007, 12:32:51 PM
Luigi's Mansion uses the C-stick for turning and I never felt any discomfort. Same with herding Pikmin. I'm purely talking about the position here and not the shape (I think both Cube sticks being identical is a better design). And I think the Gamecube's crappy d-pad isn't just because of size (though that's a big part) but also because of the placement. I find that when controlling a d-pad favoured game on other controllers with off center d-pads (Dreamcast, Xbox) there is again a certain awkwardness. For a d-pad nothing feels as tight as having that d-pad in the main position. But with analog sticks I find that having it in the center is not quite as crucial. I don't find using the analog stick on the Dualshock that difficult. Using an off center d-pad is harder. Obviously the center position is the best method for both but the analog stick seems to be hurt less by being off center. So logically if one has to go to the side it should be the analog stick.
The whole idea is very theoretical unless I made some sort of prototype. Hell odds are in a few months I might go back to thinking a centered analog stick is the better model.
One part of it is finding the right place to press. With a d-pad you are essentially pushing four buttons so if you have to "feel" for it you're more likely to press in the wrong direction. But an analog stick is much easier to "find" since it automatically centers and thus is in the same place every time. You find the center and then move it in the direction you want. You only have to know one place to find instead of four.
Post by: Mario on April 04, 2007, 12:50:30 PM
Pretty much every game sucks with the dual shock, because the buttons placement is just crap, and the thing wasn't even designed to fit in your hands comfortably. Usually I just forget about it but I would rather be using the GC controller. Bring on the boomerang even.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on April 04, 2007, 12:50:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Nope, thread ends after I say how much the DualShock sucks...Which I just did...
Well then! Maybe you'd prefer this!
Ah haw haw haw haaaaaaa *SMOKE BOMB, RUNS INTO DOOR FRAME AND GETS KNOCKED OUT*
Post by: Mario on April 04, 2007, 12:54:12 PM
Post by: Shift Key on April 04, 2007, 12:57:28 PM
Post by: SixthAngel on April 04, 2007, 12:58:54 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on April 04, 2007, 12:59:47 PM
All this to play a port of last years Need for Speed. Watch out GBA!!! Gonna get'cha.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 04, 2007, 01:28:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
I always figured the boomerang would have been comfortable. They shouldn't have trashed it because of the complaints. They all would have been forgotten in a couple of months if it worked, much like everyone who bitched and moaned about the name Wii.
I think they trashed it because they had to slap in motion control at the last minute, and the best way to do that was with their traditional controller.
Post by: Athrun Zala on April 10, 2007, 05:22:39 PM
the X360 controller I found pretty comfortable, but the D-Pad is simply horrible, and using the triggers is "painful" after a while (like it was on the DC, especially after a long CT or JGR session :3).... I must say if it had the DC's D-Pad and GC's triggers, the X360 pad would be simply awesome....
Post by: mantidor on April 10, 2007, 06:12:22 PM
And I will defend the N64 controller since is the best controller ever made, with GC as a close second, an hibrid of those two would be the gaming gods' gift to humankind.
Post by: Kairon on April 10, 2007, 06:29:48 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 10, 2007, 06:52:02 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on April 10, 2007, 07:09:38 PM
Also, I disagree about the Classic Controller's influences being the Dual Shock. I finally got a hold of one today, and it feels and looks much different in person. From the shoulder buttons to the d-pad and analog sticks, the controller is much better. I think the shape is a meld between the cube and the SNES controller almost perfectly. Considering that Nintendo probably believed the Wii would sell first to Cube owners, they placed the D-pad in the primary position, as any of their gamers probably would have a Cube controller if they needed an analog stick there for a VC game. That only leaves the secondary position for the analog stick, and then when you look at the position of LZ and RZ, it becomes more evident that the controller is Nintendo's independant design, and not that of a copycat. That's only my opinion, though.
Post by: Ceric on April 11, 2007, 03:44:06 AM
Post by: Kairon on April 11, 2007, 07:21:04 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Athrun Zala on April 11, 2007, 04:14:33 PM
Quoteo_O
Originally posted by: Kairon
I personally never had anything bad to say about the batarang... but then again I liked the original big XBox controller very much... whish is strange considering I have small hands!
even the NES pad is more comfortable than the Xbox controller....
Post by: AwesomeMan on April 11, 2007, 04:55:43 PM
and xbox/x360 by far has the best Dpad out of current consoles. but the best digital control was NeoGeo pocket color's Dstick thing(best thing for fighting games ever)
