Post by: Kairon on March 09, 2007, 04:55:17 PM
Well, I think this is a combination of two things: Sony had money hats, and Nintendo wasn't going to run after a dev.
On one hand, you just have to throw up your shoulders and *shrug* at MoneyHats... like with SC3, for example.
On the other hand, you have to wonder whether Nintendo will attempt to do some actual outreach for indie devs. Sure, they've got the biggest userbase, the cheapest system to dev for, and they're Nintendo, but a little personal attention and marketting/PR/fake-smile buddy-buddy stuff never hurt did it? The fact is that Nintendo just doesn't COURT anybody...
... and sometimes I wonder as to whether Nintendo's culture allows them to court indie devs, especially when all of the power is concentrated in Japan and America is always playing Mii-too to Japan's steps.
So, to summarize:
~ Sony MoneyHats
~ Nintendo is sorta frigid
And now I open the floor for comments... (and hopefully not too many Pittboi flames against Nintendo).
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: capamerica on March 09, 2007, 05:11:17 PM
In all seriousness, I don't know what the big deal about this game is. Its actually pretty lame. Then again I don't know what the big deal about Lumines was too. What is the big fuss over these games? Their really weak yet Sony fans claim that they're system sellers.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 09, 2007, 05:58:33 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 09, 2007, 06:38:22 PM
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and hopefully not too many Pittboi flames against Nintendo
I don't flame Nintendo.
I criticize a lot but I don't flame. People who hate Nintendo flame them.I don't think the merits of this game matter. Whether or not it interests you isn't really the point. From the article I read it seemed like the developer really wanted this game on the Wii, but Nintendo didn't reach out to them, whereas Sony did. This isn't an example of Sony using money to steal a game away from Nintendo, so I don't think it's fair to call out MoneyHats on Sony. Nintendo didn't court the developer; Sony did. The game went to Sony as a result. That's really all there is to it. It happens all the time.
What I don't understand is this apparent...almost contradiction to Nintendo's philosophy. They made the Wii a significantly weaker console based on already established hardware, and it wasn't just to make the console cheap and appealing to consumers, but also to make the console the cheapest and easiest to develop for this gen. To me that just SCREAMS "Indie developers make your games on the WII!" because Nintendo had to have learned from the Gamecube that the big name developers/publishers don't care how cheap and easy it is to develop for your console--they'll put their programmers to work and put their games where they want to put them, regardless.
It's small, indie developers that would REALLY benefit from Nintendo's hardware philosophy, and yet Nintendo doesn't court them outside of "look, our console is cheap and easy...I hope you get the message we're sending...eh? EH?". It really makes no sense for me. If Nintendo doesn't actively go after indie talent and offer incentives it won't matter that their console is perfect for indie content, because Sony and Microsoft will make sure they get the games, even if it means funding them themselves.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 09, 2007, 07:21:56 PM
Post by: odifiend on March 10, 2007, 02:34:05 AM
It is great and very cool that they want to work with Nintendo but you can't expect Nintendo to fund studios of (very often) unproven developers - to take that risk doesn't make any sense. They have done a good job on the front end to ensure an indie can afford to put a game on their console. I hope Nintendo does assume the risk now and again when the project and the people can be a success. Maybe that wasn't quite the situation here.
Since Nintendo isn't arrogant as arrogant behind the scenes, hopefully when the 'debt' to Sony is paid, these developers will make games for a Nintendo console in the future.
My question though is did Sony approach That Game Company after Nintendo expressed interest? It doesn't really matter because the game couldn't happen on consoles without Sony but I'm just curious.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 10, 2007, 04:56:24 AM
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Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
and hopefully not too many Pittboi flames against Nintendo
I don't flame Nintendo.
Criticize, flame, same diff...
As for this topic, isn't an independent game already being made and released for the Wii, Mercury something? The one with the metallic blobs.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 10, 2007, 05:40:11 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 10, 2007, 06:02:36 AM
I don't put it upon Nintendo's shoulders to "court" every last independent game developer with a gimmicky idea.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 10, 2007, 07:57:04 AM
Post by: Kairon on March 10, 2007, 08:03:14 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Artimus on March 10, 2007, 08:42:00 AM
Post by: Galford on March 10, 2007, 08:54:57 AM
I know others have said that, but I think it needs to be said again.
Having read the concept behind flow it's kinda interesting, but the game is fun for about 10 minutes kinda like Ico and SOC.
Oops... did I say that....
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 10, 2007, 09:19:47 AM
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Originally posted by: Galford Having read the concept behind flow it's kinda interesting, but the game is fun for about 10 minutes kinda like Ico and SOC.
Oops... did I say that....
No, you typed it, now Google has cached it and it will be attributed to you forever.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on March 10, 2007, 09:37:16 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 10, 2007, 09:40:19 AM
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Maybe Nintendo didn't court them because they didn't like the game?
I don't put it upon Nintendo's shoulders to "court" every last independent game developer with a gimmicky idea.
But when was the last time Nintendo courted any indie developer? This isn't a rhetorical question, I really don't know the answer. The only group I can think of is Retro Studios, but Nintendo didn't so much support their content as they...well, absorbed them completely and put them to work on Metroid games.
Nintendo is courting indies with their hardware. The Wii IS the place for indie content in theory --it's cheap and easy to develop for, something only indie developers actually care about. But courting with just the hardware won't be enough, especially when their going up against competition that is willing to throw more money at compelling indie projects, thus erasing Nintendo's hardware advantage. Nintendo doesn't necessarily have to do the same, but Nintendo has to do something more. Nintendo is not a small gaming house. Nintendo is a multi-billion dollar gaming company that is currently the only company in the gaming console industry that is turning a profit. Contrary to popular belief they can throw the occasional moneybag, and I don't think it would hurt if they did. They don't have to throw moneybags at every indie dev, but couldn't they offer some sort of benefits package to small indie houses that meet a basic criteria? It doesn't have to be something like "hey, bring your games to the Wii and we'll pay for everything!" but, you know, just something to sweeten the pot a little.
Quote
I also wonder if Nintendo, being based in Japan, just doesn't have the authority or flexibility in its US branch to do this sort of outreach that MS and Sony can do since they're closer culturally and geographically to these indies.
But Sony's also based in Japan...
Though, I guess Nintendo would have a more level playing field if they gave Reggie a bit more clearance to seek out talent like this, without hold Big Papa's hand.
Post by: Kairon on March 10, 2007, 10:04:54 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 10, 2007, 10:29:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
But when was the last time Nintendo courted any indie developer? This isn't a rhetorical question, I really don't know the answer. The only group I can think of is Retro Studios, but Nintendo didn't so much support their content as they...well, absorbed them completely and put them to work on Metroid games.
It's hard to say. Nintendo might be courting indie devs we don't even know about right now, but the stink rising from this Flow thing is nothing but this company drumming up some free publicity by pretending to be the victim by Nintendo not reaching out to them, even though it's not Nintendo's obligation to do so.
Furthermore, Sony is just doing its old song and dance of turning a mole hill into a mountain because anything which even remotely comes across as good news is better than the usual bad news for them.
Maybe Nintendo, like many of us, played Flow, came to the same conclusions we did and opted to not pursue them.
EDIT: I just played Flow: cute concept, basically a free-roam version of the classic "Snake", but the novelty definitely wears off. Furthermore, I don't know how this is going to control with an analogue stick as the game seems genuinely pointer-centric.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 10, 2007, 11:57:32 AM
Like flOw, it started as a Flash game. It's also completely boring and horrible, just like flOw. Data Design, another Euro developer just announced 13 disaster games for Wii. Nintendo America just needs to relax more. Same with Sony. I mean there's like 2500 PAL PS2 games, yet only a 1000 or so American PS2 games.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 10, 2007, 12:26:55 PM
Post by: SixthAngel on March 10, 2007, 12:29:20 PM
Why would Nintendo give any other developers money, much less unproven indies, to make games on the Wii when they could use the money to fund more internal projects? Indie games are extremely overrated but if you have the desire for them some will come because of the cheapness of development.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 10, 2007, 12:54:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Once an indie studio accepts money to make the game don't they stop being independent?
Why would Nintendo give any other developers money, much less unproven indies, to make games on the Wii when they could use the money to fund more internal projects? Indie games are extremely overrated but if you have the desire for them some will come because of the cheapness of development.
Nintendo has stated many a time that they WILL be supporting many indie and "garage" developers, starting with the developing kits being affordable and the announcement of original VC content.
I think S_B mentioned this, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons Nintendo is supporting developers is because they want to find the next big franchise they can bleed, er I mean, heavily market for years to come.
Post by: Ceric on March 10, 2007, 01:37:29 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 10, 2007, 01:42:39 PM
Maybe that only happens in Japan?
Post by: Ceric on March 10, 2007, 01:47:49 PM
Post by: Dirk Temporo on March 10, 2007, 01:51:16 PM
Hm...
Post by: Shift Key on March 10, 2007, 03:40:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Once an indie studio accepts money to make the game don't they stop being independent?
Why would Nintendo give any other developers money, much less unproven indies, to make games on the Wii when they could use the money to fund more internal projects? Indie games are extremely overrated but if you have the desire for them some will come because of the cheapness of development.
I believe the definition of indie developers comes from ownership of the company rather than funding. Like Retro Studios, who were independent until Nintendo bought the majority share of the company and turned it into a Nintendo developer. This is just a case of Sony giving them moneyhats in exchange for them bringing the game to the PS3.
And yes, I don't believe that this is an issue. Once there is an abundance of dev kits for the Wii then you'll probably hear some news about Nintendo encouraging indie developers to make games for the Wii. Until then, think about the fact that there's places where you still can't get Wiis. That's demand for you.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 10, 2007, 05:33:11 PM
I'd assume the paid-for version is more than just a bit improved, kinda like Every Extend.
Post by: Kairon on March 10, 2007, 07:46:54 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on March 12, 2007, 04:02:39 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
