Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 09:44:28 AM
Chris Hecker, of Spore fame, apparently had some pretty, well, harsh words for Nintendo at the GDC...
Quote
"The way you manufacture a Wii is you take two GameCubes and duct tape."
Not really surprising, but Hecker doesn't like that Nintendo's newest console is ridiculously underpowered, among other complaints. He also made some tongue-in-cheek comments about Nintendo's stance on games as a medium.
"It's not clear to me that Nintendo gives a sh*t about gaming as an art form."
Ouch. Of course, I agree with him on the Wii being incredibly underpowered, and I guess as a developer he would know. Nintendo definitely could have put a little more into the Wii's tank. But I really don't agree with him on Nintendo not giving a sh*t about gaming as an art form. Nintendo for the most part pioneered modern gaming. Some of the greatest games of all time come from Nintendo's house. In short that was a really stupid thing to say. Now, if he were complaining about Nintendo resting on that and not taking the Wii to the levels it could reach, I'd probably agree. But that's not what he said, and the comment just taints what could have been a pretty scathingly honest critique that Nintendo probably needs right now.
Oh, and Greg Costikyan had this to say:
Quote
"The console manufacturers have a choke hold on the industry, for which you may blame Nintendo."
Costikyan called listeners' attention back to 1985 when Nintendo began its deliciously evil scheme of making publishers pay royalties for a game at its manufacture, regardless of sales.
Nintendo better come with something tomorrow, because with this on top of the fact that Sony is laying down the pimp hand today, Nintendo's getting seriously shown up.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 07, 2007, 09:57:29 AM
EA: Nobody cares about PC gaming anymore, we'll port this!
Chris Hecker: BUT BUT IT HAS N64 GRAPHICS AND NOT ENOUGH GIGAFLOPS HUUURRR!
EA: Shut up and get back to work slave
Chris Hecker: You'll pay Nintendo, you'll pay.
Post by: Deguello on March 07, 2007, 09:58:41 AM
Post by: TrueNerd on March 07, 2007, 10:15:20 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 07, 2007, 10:16:23 AM
Hahaha, hey guys look here, Nintendo used to be pretty bad way back when! What do you mean Sony has been doing the same thing for years? Bah, just a bunch of lies!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 10:21:17 AM
Quote
Nintendo better come with something tomorrow, because with this on top of the fact that Sony is laying down the pimp hand today, Nintendo's getting seriously shown up.
How exactly is Sony doing this? Did they announce a price drop or something? Or is it just you being you being overtly negative towards Nintendo and complaining yet again? Maybe you have been asleep but Nintendo can't legally reveal anything new anyway, so I'm not sure what you expect, besides another reason to whine and complain about the doom of the Wii.
Post by: Bloodworth on March 07, 2007, 10:21:36 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 07, 2007, 10:28:40 AM
Back to this first guy, I'm trying to figure out what his definition of art is...Last year he apparently grumbled about how next-gen systems were too focused on raw power...Now "not enough power" isn't good enough? Has this guy even played Wind Waker? Has he seen Super Paper Mario? I mean, honestly, I don't see how WRONG he could possibly get about Nintendo "not being artistic" but apparently this level of idiocy does exist...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 10:31:36 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 10:31:54 AM
Quote
How exactly is Sony doing this? Did they announce a price drop or something? Or is it just you being you being overtly negative towards Nintendo and complaining yet again? Maybe you have been asleep but Nintendo can't legally reveal anything new anyway, so I'm not sure what you expect, besides another reason to whine and complain about the doom of the Wii.
Ummm, how is me saying Sony's doing something impressive for a change being overly negative towards Nintendo? Stop reaching into every little thing I say. Nintendo got negative press, I posted it on thsi forum. Big deal. Nintendo may not legally be able to unveil anything (though there's even speculation about that http://smashbrawl.com/2007/03/06/nothing-new-at-gdc-oh-really/), but that doesn't change the fact that they're really aren't shining much this GDC.
And...
1) Home
2) Little Big Planet
3) Warhawk
4) Unveling state of the art development tools
Hate to say it, but that's how Sony's doing it. Nor did I say that Sony was laying the pimp slap on just Nintendo. That sentence wasn't an attack on Nintendo. However, Sony's definitely showed up to the GDC in their Sunday's best. They've near taken over the whole conference.
And why do people keep comparing Home to Miis?? It's nothing at all like Miis outside the obvious 3D avatar (though Home is of a completely different artistic stock). If you want to compare it to something Nintendo, compare it to Animal Crossing...but with humans...
Post by: Luigi Dude on March 07, 2007, 10:36:23 AM
Quote
Chris Hecker was given a chance to speak on the developers' behalf during the session. His complaints in previous rants had been directed at Microsoft and Sony for making multi-core monsters that tout graphics over smart game design. This time, Hecker had a little something to say about everyone's favorite console.
So he has a problem with Microsoft and Sony focusing on power over games, but now he has a problem with Nintendo focusing on games over power. So what exactly does he want then?
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 07, 2007, 10:38:07 AM
And also laugho at your belief that Chris Hecker is going to change the views of developers with some awful tripe rant about "art," which pretty much proves that he shouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the game industry in the first place...
Post by: Strell on March 07, 2007, 10:38:08 AM
Also, Warhawk is hardly anything to worry about.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 07, 2007, 10:41:13 AM
To hell with this $600 Animal Crossing.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 10:43:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
How exactly is Sony doing this? Did they announce a price drop or something? Or is it just you being you being overtly negative towards Nintendo and complaining yet again? Maybe you have been asleep but Nintendo can't legally reveal anything new anyway, so I'm not sure what you expect, besides another reason to whine and complain about the doom of the Wii.
Ummm, how is me saying Sony's doing something impressive for a change being overly negative towards Nintendo? Stop reaching into every little thing I say. Nintendo got negative press, I posted it on thsi forum. Big deal. Nintendo may not legally be able to unveil anything (though there's even speculation about that http://smashbrawl.com/2007/03/06/nothing-new-at-gdc-oh-really/), but that doesn't change the fact that they're really aren't shining much this GDC.
And...
1) Home
2) Little Big Planet
3) Warhawk
4) Unveling state of the art development tools
Hate to say it, but that's how Sony's doing it.
And why do people keep comparing Home to Miis?? It's nothing at all like Miis outside the obvious 3D avatar (though Home is of a completely different artistic stock). If you want to compare it to something Nintendo, compare it to Animal Crossing...but with humans...
Um wow? Home a second life ripoff (and will most likely be something that gets Sony fanboys and Nintendo bashers, Little Big Planet which has potential but that is it (There are much better creation games on the PC. Not to mention the game along with Home seems gimmicky), Warhawk, ehhe maybe, we'll see. THat is not a pimp slapping, sorry. Is it solid? Perhaps, but then again you have to realize we are talking about Sony who does not have the greatest track record besides a few games here and there that turned out to be great titles. About the state of the art development tools, I can't comment on that, except that I have never trusted Sony hyping any technology related things, they always overexagerrate.
Regardless, you are harping about Nintendo not being impressive, what exactly do you want them to do that they can legally besides maybe show some games that were announced (which they are doing)? You seem completely oblivious to the fact that Nintendo is handicapped during GDC for reasons other than themselves. Not to mention that tomorrow is the day they will get the spotlight!
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 10:43:58 AM
Quote
Little Big Planet is the only thing that remotely interests me, and can you HONESTLY say with a straight face that it will bring new gamers to the table?
Yeah, because Little Big Planet obviously has to bring new gamers to the table in order to be considered an interesting game? Well if that's the case everything Nintendo released on the Cube was utter crap.
Quote
Because if I didn't know better it feels as if you are trying to make mountains out of pitiful molehills that won't do jack for increasing the fanbase...
Call them pitiful molehills all you want, but those pitiful molehills are stealing headlines from just about everything else going on at the GDC.
Quote
And also laugho at your belief that Chris Hecker is going to change the views of developers with some awful tripe rant about "art,
Didn't I not say that that comment was ridiculously stupid?
Quote
Regardless, you are harping about Nintendo not being impressive, what exactly do you want them to do that they can legally besides maybe show some games that were announced (which they are doing)?
How in the heck is one sentence at the end of my post "harping". Honestly, I'd say you were harping from choosing to attack that one thing I said in an attempt to spin my post into something entirely negative when I actually sided with Nintendo for the most part. Grow up.
Quote
Little Big Planet which has potential but that is it (There are much better creation games on the PC. Not to mention the game along with Home seems gimmicky), Warhawk, ehhe maybe, we'll see.
You're saying I'm wrong but you're offering up nothing better to defend your point other than "Eh, maybe..."
And how anyone can look at the footage of LittleBigPlanet and call it gimmicky is beyond me. The game seems fun as hell and looks like a Pixar animated short. If the game were on the Wii everyone on this board would be creaming their pants.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 10:46:23 AM
Post by: Strell on March 07, 2007, 10:48:10 AM
It would be like playing baseball against kindergartners. Of course I'd kick some f*cking ass.
I'm not calling it bad, I'm calling it "the only thing there."
Kinda like taking a Crab Juice over a Mountain Dew.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 07, 2007, 10:52:26 AM
Did you not get the memo that it's a download-only Home multiplayer game? New gamers look at what's on store shelves, not what you can pick out from an online store database...This game won't do anything for the fanbase...
"Call them pitiful molehills all you want, but those pitiful molehills are stealing headlines from just about everything else going on at the GDC."
Are you saying that what goes on at GDC affects sales? Or perhaps that developers at the show will go "Oh wow, Sony has some downloadable games! Nintendo has no headlines here, I guess they are doomed, let's put all our resources to PS3 games now!" (hahaha, no...) I have no clue what you are trying to say here...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 10:55:02 AM
Quote
How in the heck is one sentence at the end of my post "harping". Honestly, I'd say you were harping from choosing to attack that one thing I said in an attempt to spin my post into something entirely negative when I actually sided with Nintendo for the most part. Grow up.
Gee, I am so hurt, I'm sorry I misconstrued something where you said Nintendo was getting shown up and pimp slapped. Perhaps you are the one who needs to grow up and realize that statements like that are of a negative bent, and you should be able to back them up. I realize you believe you are the ultimate truth on everything pessimistic about Nintendo, and anyone that disagree is "immature", so it could be difficult. With that said let's see what you said exactly.
1. Nintendo Wii is vastly underpowered (Negative Comment)
2. Nintendo art design helped industry (Positive)
3. Wii is vastly underutilized and Nintendo is resting on its past (Negative)
4. Sony is pimp slapping Nintendo and showing them up by a Second Life clone, a Sims wannabe community builder, Online Only Warhawk, and some world changing developing tools (Negative)
So yes you had one positive point, but the rest is the same pessimistic bull you pull out on about every post.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 11:06:17 AM
Quote
With that said let's see what you said exactly.
1. Nintendo Wii is vastly underpowered (Negative Comment)
2. Nintendo art design helped industry (Positive)
3. Wii is vastly underutilized and Nintendo is resting on its past (Negative)
4. Sony is pimp slapping Nintendo and showing them up by a Second Life clone, a Sims wannabe community builder, Online Only Warhawk, and some world changing developing tools (Negative)
Oh yes, that's exactly what I said. If someone gives credit to Sony for something, clearly it's an affront to Nintendo and everything they stand for. Sony is creating positive waves for the PS3 today, something pretty much nobody thought they were capable of doing. In that sense Sony's laying the pimp hand on everyone, not just the Big N. Defend Nintendo all you want but nothing'll change that.
Look, I'm not going to get into some petty debate with you over this. It's childish and all I did was post a freaking topic highlighting the comments of a guy that, according to me, I mostly disagree with. That doesn't change the fact that there was one thing he said that I did agree with, and last I checked I had the right on these boards to post an opinion without being personally attacked. Not only that, but you've done very little to back up your own follow-up point outside of the usual "Nintendo can get away with this but other developers can't" double-standard.
Post by: Blue Plant on March 07, 2007, 11:08:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
How anyone can get excited about Sony's GDC display is beyond me. Time and time again Sony has let garbage specs, garbage development tools, and garbage games spew out of their company but they always look "promising" when shown on the floor, sometimes by avoiding showing any true gameplay. This is a company I don't trust as a developer, as an innovator, or even one to even come close to living up to expectations.
That reminds me of horribly disappointing movies that hide behind very appealing trailers (The Grudge and Boogeyman come to mind) just to draw you in until its too late and you've already forked over your money. Sony is in the movie industry as well, right? Coincidence?!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 11:12:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Oh, don't kid yourself.
Look, I'm not going to get into some petty debate with you over this. It's childish and all I did was post a freaking topic highlighting the comments of a guy that, according to me, I mostly disagree with. That doesn't change the fact that there was one thing he said that I did agree with, and last I checked I had the right on these boards to post an opinion without being personally attacked. Not only that, but you've done very little to back up your own follow-up point outside of the usual "Nintendo can get away with this but other developers can't" double-standard.
Gee I seem to recall someone attacking me personally, oh wait that was you! Talk about a double standard. Not sure what the heck you are referring to in your last point. You haven't backed up ANY of your comments on why Warhawk, Home, and the sims wannabe are pimp slapping anyone. Hey for the heck of it, let's quote exactly what you said, to show my points are NOT off base of what you said.
1. Nintendo Wii is vastly underpowered (Negative Comment) Ouch. Of course, I agree with him on the Wii being incredibly underpowered, and I guess as a developer he would know. Nintendo definitely could have put a little more into the Wii's tank.
2. Nintendo art design helped industry (Positive)
3.Wii is vastly underutilized and Nintendo is resting on its past (Negative) Now, if he were complaining about Nintendo resting on that and not taking the Wii to the levels it could reach, I'd probably agree. But that's not what he said, and the comment just taints what could have been a pretty scathingly honest critique that Nintendo probably needs right now.
4. Sony is pimp slapping Nintendo and showing them up by a Second Life clone, a Sims wannabe community builder, Online Only Warhawk, and some world changing developing tools (Negative) Nintendo better come with something tomorrow, because with this on top of the fact that Sony is laying down the pimp hand today, Nintendo's getting seriously shown up
I'm sorry but a relatively promising or positive showing is not laying the pimp smack on anyone. Personally I think the reason why people are getting excited about Sony's showing is because they have been stinking things up for so long that they finally have a solid showing (similar philosophy to supporting bad games because you want it so badly).
Post by: Adrock on March 07, 2007, 11:14:47 AM
And Sony came out strong at GDC, but they're still selling a $600 console. Sony's Home isn't changing that nor will it convince people change their minds about whether or not to get a PS3.
All I wanted out of GDC was a new Brawl trailer. That's looking like a major no-go so I'm going back to bed now.
Post by: ThePerm on March 07, 2007, 11:14:51 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 11:22:58 AM
Quote
Gee I seem to recall someone attacking me personally, oh wait that was you!
Unless I made I direct reference to you in my first post, I really wouldn't say the fault lies with me here.
]
Quote
You haven't backed up ANY of your comments on why Warhawk, Home, and the sims wannabe are pimp slapping anyone.
Are you referring to LittleBigPlanet as the Sims wannabe? Or do you mean Home?
And, as I've already said. Sony definitely went into the GDC with everyone expecting them to fumble in a major way. But they didn't. Outside of the Warhawk issue (which is in major contention), pretty much everything they've done today has garnered positive press, which is a definitely turn-around for the PS3 since, well....since it was unveiled. Everyone was ready to count Sony out this gen...Now, not so much. That isn't just MY opinion, nor is it just an "Eh, maybe..." response. Granted, the purpose of this thread was not at all to praise Sony, but since you saw it fit to focus on this one and only minute aspect of what I said, well...I had to follow it up with something.
Granted, Nintendo's day to shine is tomorrow, and despite issue with the stock trade I definitely believe they still have a lot of interest things to present to the conference. But having devs come out and blast you in such a scathing, public AT the conference is not a good look, even considering how hot the Wii is right now. I'm hoping (and I believe) that Nintendo has something to counter that tomorrow, even if it can't be anything major.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 11:27:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Gee I seem to recall someone attacking me personally, oh wait that was you!
Unless I made I direct reference to you in my first post, I really wouldn't say the fault lies with me here.Quote
You haven't backed up ANY of your comments on why Warhawk, Home, and the sims wannabe are pimp slapping anyone.
Are you referring to LittleBigPlanet as the Sims wannabe? Or do you mean Home?
And, as I've already said. Sony definitely went into the GDC with everyone expecting them to fumble in a major way. But they didn't. Outside of the Warhawk issue (which is in major contention), pretty much everything they've done today has garnered positive press, which is a definitely turn-around for the PS3 since, well....since it was unveiled. Everyone was ready to count Sony out this gen...Now, not so much. That isn't just MY opinion, nor is it just an "Eh, maybe..." response. Granted, the purpose of this thread was not at all to praise Sony, but since you saw it fit to focus on this one and only minute aspect of what I said, well...I had to follow it up with something.
Granted, Nintendo's day to shine is tomorrow, and despite issue with the stock trade I definitely believe they still have a lot of interest things to present to the conference. But having devs come out and blast you in such a scathing, public AT the conference is not a good look, even considering how hot the Wii is right now. I'm hoping (and I believe) that Nintendo has something to counter that tomorrow, even if it can't be anything major.
Well when you say it like that, I agree, I was mainly referencing your "grow up" statement. The reason why I focused on your final comments is because the way you worded it made it sound like Sony is some incredible force decimating Nintendo and MS with its pimp slaps, when it seems you meant that Sony has been getting positive press. In regards to devs blasting Nintendo, isn't Chris the only one with such scathing remarks (and as someone pointed out he hasn't been consistent himself in the past!). I still want to know how much freedom Nintendo has in the way of already announced projects, I guess we'll find out tomorrow.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 07, 2007, 11:28:21 AM
Though Nintendo did gimp the Wii hardware so I think any criticism regarding that from developers is totally exceptable. I'd argue that Nintendo's artistic credibility has been hurt since this whole "non-gamer" thing started. An artist probably wouldn't dumb down their product to attract a wider audience. But Nintendo has always had a bizarre balancing act between artist and businessman. They'll release some of the greatest and most creative games one day and release Pokemon shovelware for a quick buck the next. They're like Sega with business sense. They create game art but do so in a way that remains profitable.
But there really aren't any game publishers that aren't in it for the money. Nintendo at least will allow a game like Pikmin to be made. Some publishers like THQ honestly don't give a crap if the games they released are good or not provided they sell. Nintendo at least has a strong commitment to quality. They might only do that because they feel making a good product is smart for business but that sort of attention to their product gives them artistic credibility.
Complaining about the console licencing system is silly. Part of what contributed to the crash was the surge of unregulated crap that came out once Activision introduced the idea of third parties. Nintendo saved the market partially by having some control. Now they abused it and their main intention was likely money and the Nintendo Seal of Quality was no indication that the game was good but blantantly broken games were mostly kept out of stores. Their are PC games that are literally unplayable. I forget what it's called but there is some monster truck game where the AI racers don't even move off the starting line. Crap like that doesn't end up in stores for consoles and that benefits everyone.
And if a company wants to avoid any restrictions put on by console makers then the PC is right there. We've essentially got three countries with governments and one land of anarchy. That's pretty flexible.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 11:30:45 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 11:36:30 AM
Quote
Hey for the heck of it, let's quote exactly what you said, to show my points are NOT off base of what you said....
Now, if he were complaining about Nintendo resting on that and not taking the Wii to the levels it could reach, I'd probably agree. But that's not what he said, and the comment just taints what could have been a pretty scathingly honest critique that Nintendo probably needs right now.
Keyword "probably" - as in that is the only conceivable issue I can see where someone could possibly form a substantial argument to say Nintendo isn't following through. As in, if he had said that, his comments wouldn't have been immediately written off as ridiculously stupid. People might have still disagreed, but they would have at least considered his words first.
QuoteWhy would I say Sony's pimp slapping Nintendo when Nintendo's day to shine is tomorrow? Honestly, again, just because I said Sony's doing something right for once doesn't mean I was using that as a critique of Nintendo, especially when they haven't had a showing yet. Sony's pimp slapped the GDC, and having the most interesting showing at the conference isn't guaranteed to Nintendo. Basically, they have competition at the conference. For crying out loud that's ALL I meant.
Nintendo better come with something tomorrow, because with this on top of the fact that Sony is laying down the pimp hand today, Nintendo's getting seriously shown up
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 11:49:32 AM
Oh Yeah:
No Afrika news or gameplay demo=fail
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 07, 2007, 12:24:32 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 12:34:35 PM
Post by: BigJim on March 07, 2007, 12:35:29 PM
FWIW
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 01:17:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Oh ha ha ha. Say anything good about anyone other than Nintendo and you can just forget it...
No just Sony. :-P
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 01:19:20 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 01:23:04 PM
Getting back to Nintendo, though. I don't see why they can't expand on things the public doesn't already know about, tomorrow. Or is that prohibited, too?
Post by: Mario on March 07, 2007, 01:26:10 PM
Quote
But having devs come out and blast you in such a scathing, public AT the conference is not a good look, even considering how hot the Wii is right now.
It's more embarassing for the person who actually made those comments.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 07, 2007, 01:26:23 PM
Post by: The Omen on March 07, 2007, 01:30:54 PM
Or he was really drunk and trying to be satiric. Either way, he's a dope, that much is true.
I do believe Nintendo has dropped the ball somewhat with the Mii channel. I never worried that the Mii channel hadn't been expanded or at the very least updated because I didn't expect Sony/MS to attempt something this grandiose. Now it just seems plain stupid that Nintendo have basically offered us the appetizer without the main course. Not being able to mention a peep about anything at this GDC has certainly killed them. All the press is Sony dominated, and yes it will effect sales since people have been waiting for good news on the PS3. The Wii still has the momentum, but this could have been the knee on the neck of Sony, instead, the playing field is back to level, and it's Nintendo shooting themselves in the foot once again. I don't give a rat's ass about company stocks/shares. I mean, this whole thing just stinks, and frankly I'm pretty much aggravated by it. We should have been hearing about the online titles coming, Mii channel V.2...and now it appears we'll hear nothing.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on March 07, 2007, 01:32:33 PM
Post by: capamerica on March 07, 2007, 01:43:17 PM
I don't think we'll be seeing Mr. Hecker speaking again for a long time... at least not as a memeber of Maxis or EA.
EA must be really pissed at what he said since they are now a huge suporter of Nintendo. This guy is a real idiot, He's about as bad as the retard over at Epic Games.
It wouldn't surprize me if he's looking for a new job come Monday.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 01:49:31 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 07, 2007, 02:00:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Do these shows really dictate game sales? I seem to recall GC getting tons of good publicity then tanking, so I wouldn't call it a huge deal breaker for Nintendo.
If there's one thing I learned throughout the years is that sometimes fan/industry rabble does NOT always determine the outcome of a game or console.
Take for example, the PSP and DS. EVERYONE in the industry and even the fans said that the DS would tank and that the PSP would destroy Nintendo's handheld dominance, mainly because it was the thing gamers wanted in a next gen handheld. 3 years later and the DS is a worldwide phenomenon.
Another example is the Wii itself. When the final name was revealed EVERYONE said that Nintendo was doomed because no one would take seriously a console with a name like "The Wii", all playing Chicken Little and predicting doom. Now its outselling the 360 and the PS3 and the support is coming in like never before.
Once again, fan and industry hype will not determine the future.
Quote
By watching the footage of LittleBigPlanet, I get the awful feeling the game will play like a tech demo, it seems shallow but has neat little visual effects and physics.
Just like Elebits!
BA-DUM, TSSSHHH!
Post by: UncleBob on March 07, 2007, 02:05:58 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 02:13:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
By watching the footage of LittleBigPlanet, I get the awful feeling the game will play like a tech demo, it seems shallow but has neat little visual effects and physics.
Just like Elebits!
BA-DUM, TSSSHHH!
NOOOO, you did not just say that. Well Sonic SR is basically a tech demo from the GBA Tilt N Tumble era! Zing!
Post by: The Omen on March 07, 2007, 02:17:00 PM
Quote
Do these shows really dictate game sales? I seem to recall GC getting tons of good publicity then tanking, so I wouldn't call it a huge deal breaker for Nintendo. By watching the footage of LittleBigPlanet, I get the awful feeling the game will play like a tech demo, it seems shallow but has neat little visual effects and physics.
Actually, the GC tanked later on in it's cycle. It started strong though. The sales were very good, outselling the Xbox, which it ended up getting spanked by later on.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 02:23:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: The OmenQuote
Do these shows really dictate game sales? I seem to recall GC getting tons of good publicity then tanking, so I wouldn't call it a huge deal breaker for Nintendo. By watching the footage of LittleBigPlanet, I get the awful feeling the game will play like a tech demo, it seems shallow but has neat little visual effects and physics.
Actually, the GC tanked later on in it's cycle. It started strong though. The sales were very good, outselling the Xbox, which it ended up getting spanked by later on.
True, but PSP never really had a big start and it probably had some of the strongest positive feedback and showing a system could get. Really I don't think many people pay attention to these trade shows besides the "Hardcore" gamer, most wouldn't know an E3 or GDC if they heard about them, instead they will look at what is on the shelf and advice they get!
Post by: Deguello on March 07, 2007, 02:48:22 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 07, 2007, 02:53:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: The OmenQuote
Do these shows really dictate game sales? I seem to recall GC getting tons of good publicity then tanking, so I wouldn't call it a huge deal breaker for Nintendo. By watching the footage of LittleBigPlanet, I get the awful feeling the game will play like a tech demo, it seems shallow but has neat little visual effects and physics.
Actually, the GC tanked later on in it's cycle. It started strong though. The sales were very good, outselling the Xbox, which it ended up getting spanked by later on.
True, but PSP never really had a big start and it probably had some of the strongest positive feedback and showing a system could get. Really I don't think many people pay attention to these trade shows besides the "Hardcore" gamer, most wouldn't know an E3 or GDC if they heard about them, instead they will look at what is on the shelf and advice they get!
Yeah, like I said, people praised the PSP like it was the true next gen handheld while many dismissed the DS as being the next Virtual Boy.
I think it was because:
- The PSP was seen as the first true competitor. Yeah there was the Wonderswan and the Ngage, but this was a worthy competitor, one that had destroyed Nintendo on the N64 and GC era.
- The PSP sounded like the logical step in gaming while the DS seemed like one big gimmick. This was strengthened by a really poor launch and gimmick games.
It wasn't till the right games hits that word was spread about the DS. That and the final 300 price point for the PSP hurt it.
Post by: Smoke39 on March 07, 2007, 03:10:11 PM
Although he stated the system is "severely underpowered," Hecker noted that he wasn't simply referring to the Wii's graphical capabilities. He wants to spend a console's CPU making games more intelligent, and he has found the Wii doesn't have the power to process things like complicated AI.
At least his desire for power is for gameplay purposes and not just more flashy graphics, right? But the art comment is completely ridiculous. Here's some more info on it from IGN:
Hecker also took Nintendo to task for not taking games seriously enough. "It's not clear to me that Nintendo gives a sh!t about games as an art form," he said. To illustrate his point, he searched for references to games as art on all three console manufacturers web sites. While he found numerous such references on both the official PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 sites, Wii.com had none at all. He then shared quotes from executives at Sony and Microsoft talking about games as a serious artistic medium, and then a quote from a Nintendo executive saying the company only wanted to make "fun" games.
Apparently, art isn't allowed to be fun.
Post by: Strell on March 07, 2007, 03:20:07 PM
Rhythm Tengoku
Tingle RPG
Super Paper Mario
Paper Mario 1/2
Electroplankton
Earthbound
Zelda: The Wind Waker
Hotel Dusk: Room 215
Warioware Series
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
The above fully exempts Nintendo from ever being called a company that doesn't care about art and style in their video games. Hell, you could make a few more arguments - Starfox, Metroid Prime, Mario Paint.
Nintendo might not be pushing a powerhouse system, but if I'm going to listen to high schoolers bitch like little bitches, I'll walk into a high school and call them all some random slur. I'm sure that will net me just as much intellgentsia as this guy obviously is throwing around.
Like I said, power comments aside, I have to think that was the most offensive thing the guy said, and he's absolutely out of his gourd.
Post by: Adrock on March 07, 2007, 03:41:56 PM
If I had to choose, I'd say Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are pretty artsy. There's just something about those titles. They're so simple yet they evoke such strong emotions.
Post by: Strell on March 07, 2007, 03:47:23 PM
After that, everything becomes semantics and syntax. Point being that if the guy calls Nintendo unable to achieve art, then no one else is either, because I haven't seen too many games that approach stylistic visuals. Sure, there are some out there - Okami, Rez, Katamari Damacy, etc - but the point is that Nintendo has always been driven to inject their games with unique visual flair.
That's all I can say, because I don't think the "can games be art?" argument will ever be settled.
Post by: hudsonhawk on March 07, 2007, 03:49:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
Take for example, the PSP and DS. EVERYONE in the industry and even the fans said that the DS would tank and that the PSP would destroy Nintendo's handheld dominance, mainly because it was the thing gamers wanted in a next gen handheld. 3 years later and the DS is a worldwide phenomenon.
Everyone said that? I think you're getting a little revisionist there. A lot of industry people thought the PSP would have a tough battle ahead of it, and there were an awful lot of comparisons to the GameGear and Lynx, which both went up against Nintendo and failed badly. Very, very few people thought that Nintendo's decade of handheld dominance would just collapse when the PSP came along.
But anyway, this guys comments are being taken way out of context. It's a rants forum - it's for developers. They're supposed to bitch about the state of the industry, the tools they use, and the platforms they develop for. Last year he bitched about multi-core processors and how they were a bitch to use. This year he's bitching about the Wii being underpowered. He's a PC developer, used to powerful systems that are easy to program for.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 07, 2007, 04:07:10 PM
In regards to PSP, there were tons of people, including publications that were attacking the DS for being gimmicky, while PSP was pretty much going to walk over Nintendo because of its traditional controls, multimedia features, Sony brand name, and purty graphics. Heck you could see that confidence come through with the UMD format which various publishers supported heavily, you don't do that for a system that you fear is going to struggle.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 07, 2007, 04:14:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: hudsonhawkQuote
Originally posted by: pap64
Take for example, the PSP and DS. EVERYONE in the industry and even the fans said that the DS would tank and that the PSP would destroy Nintendo's handheld dominance, mainly because it was the thing gamers wanted in a next gen handheld. 3 years later and the DS is a worldwide phenomenon.
Everyone said that? I think you're getting a little revisionist there. A lot of industry people thought the PSP would have a tough battle ahead of it, and there were an awful lot of comparisons to the GameGear and Lynx, which both went up against Nintendo and failed badly. Very, very few people thought that Nintendo's decade of handheld dominance would just collapse when the PSP came along.
I don't know where you read that, but you are mistaken. From the very beginning people were placing money on the PSP being the winner.
Gold just summed it up for ya. Brand name, pretty graphics, a powerful system, good games and many, many other things made the PSP very appealing.
Hell, I remember clearly when Tommy Tallarico of G4 said; "If I was a gamer, I would pick the PSP". The PSP was seen as being the gaming machine while the DS was seen as a huge gimmick. People even went as far as to question Nintendo's mentality of competing against their own powerful GB brand.
The DS was so big of a success that it was able to downright destroy the Gameboy's legacy by creating a new one.
I'm not exaggerating here, its a fact. Look for articles detailing the DS and PSP struggle and you'll see that fans were betting on the PSP being the winner.
Post by: IceCold on March 07, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
That's why Mario Galaxy is so visually appealing to me.
Post by: Strell on March 07, 2007, 04:19:19 PM
Someone please show me one game with good AI. Please?
I have never seen one in my life.
Post by: SixthAngel on March 07, 2007, 04:20:09 PM
Does anyone actually believe some guy who plays second fiddle in a game he is making will actually change anyones mind? This will not change a thing.
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 07, 2007, 04:28:05 PM
Nintendo, as far as I'm concerned, does that better than anyone else out there.
Post by: capamerica on March 07, 2007, 04:57:15 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if he's looking for a new job come Monday. Its okay to let the developers comment on the difficulties of developing, but when you have a ass hole like Chris Hecker bitch up a retard storm it not only looks bad on him but the company too.
Sure the Wii doesn't have the graphic power of the PS3 and Xbox360, but it doesn't need it since its not working with HD. A lot of the PS3 and Xbox360 power is lost when it works with HD. The problem we have right now is that 90% of your Wii games are just GameCube ports. The Wii has a lot more graphic power then you all truly know about, and we're just now starting to see a few games be shown off that truly start to use the Wii's power.
Just look at the Xbox360 launch, the games all looked like slightly better Xbox titles. and I bet if it wasn't for the fact that the 360 had been out for a year already your PS3 games wouldn't have looked much better too.
Has anyone looked at a PS3 or Xbox360 on a normal TV, you really don't see a HUGE difference, yes they look better but not a whole lot better then last Gen. Its not till you plug your system into a HDTV that you really see the difference. And like 85% of a America I still don't own a HDTV and I don't plan on getting one till my current TV dies. And thats cause I don't see a need for a HDTV the quality isn't that much better with DVDs and TV only part of HD I like is the wide screen.
Graphics only matter when you have a sh!tty game that can't stand on Story and gameplay alone. If you need graphics to sell your game then thats a sign to me that they game is going to be sh!tty. A sign of a good game is one that can be downgraded and still be a lot of fun to play.
Dead Rising could have been just as fun on the Xbox as it was on the Xbox360, It may have a 1/4 less zombies but it would have been just as fun.
Gears of War could have been done with the Unreal 2 engine and still have been a blast to play. If last gen should have shown us anything its that graphics don't matter. If they did then the PS2 should have been dead last with the Xbox and GameCube taking the #1 and #2 spots and the Dreamcast being #3. Hell even the handheld war has shown us that a superior system doesn't stand a chance to a new and innovating system that has a generation behind graphics.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 07, 2007, 05:24:56 PM
I think there's a lot of retrospective thinking here. From what I remember, one of the reasons people thought the PSP was going to topple the DS was because it seemed to have a lot more going for it. Heck, when the PSP launched it had more games than the DS had managed to collect in its several month head start. It was more advanced,with a huge screen, and major developer backing. What killed the PSP was all that extra functionality making it cost more than people wanted to pay for a handheld. Honestly, if PSP had sacrificed some of the bells and whistles in order to price the PSP more competitively, it would definitely be a bigger threat to the DS than it is now.
It's easy to say now that the DS creamed the PSP from day 1, but at the beginning nobody was certain. With the DS starting out so slow, everyone thought the PSP looked like a real threat, and for good reason. The DS was less powerful and had less games, and with the touch screen not being put to good use yet the only real benefit the DS had was its price. Luckily, that was more than enough to give it an edge. The DS' and Wii's success are very much similar: they're owed not only to their own design, but also to Sony just royally screwing up and making it easier for them to pull ahead.
Post by: IceCold on March 07, 2007, 05:42:31 PM
Post by: Plugabugz on March 07, 2007, 07:28:04 PM
Games developers want more power under the hood so they don't have to be inventive. Windows Vista is a good example of that - 512 horses, when other systems needs less than that. I don't know how developers can say they want more complicated AI - F-Zero GX has 29 other computer players right?
Post by: Smoke39 on March 07, 2007, 07:57:58 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 07, 2007, 08:12:38 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on March 07, 2007, 08:30:27 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on March 07, 2007, 09:54:08 PM
Post by: UncleBob on March 08, 2007, 12:58:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Just wondering, besides the unproven-on-the-market Spore, what has Chris Hecker created?
Anyone?
Post by: KDR_11k on March 08, 2007, 01:44:39 AM
Post by: hudsonhawk on March 08, 2007, 03:26:53 AM
Again, I think you're all taking it way out of context. Sorry to upset your daydreams about him losing his job because you disagree with what he said, but he'll still be there Monday. Chris Hecker has taken part in this forum every year since they started it. The whole point of the forum is to be contentious, to stir up discussion, to be funny and over the top. Read the past transcripts and get a little perspective on it.
You'll also see where he's coming from on the games-as-art thing. You'll either agree with him or disagree with him, whatever, but at least you'll know what you're reacting to. Right now I'm not convinced you do.
Quote
OK so.. why are games and films . I mean comics and films interesting to talk about with respect to games, they’re the art forms that have come around in the recent history.. we know what they did. Film was the most important medium of the 20th century. Comics started to be important and then failed. Why? They just did the same thing. They found something easy: superheroes in bright costumes and they just did it. More and over and over and all of a sudden they weren’t stocked anywhere. In the 50s they were in any store you walked into. Now they’re in stores with men in the back playing games involving dice.
You really wanna be happy at an award ceremony, so I realised I didn’t wanna rant, I wanted to rave. Games are really totally amazing. How often do you get to be there at the start of an art form? Once every 100 years?
Games are different from other art forms: they’re interactive! There is feedback! No other art has this. I don’t care whether you call it games or storytelling, it’s all the same in my mind. Games will allow us to be affected emotionally unlike any other medium in the history of mankind. Power Fantasy is not the only tool in our toolbox! You can play some games right now that show hope. Interactivity is important and can be more so if we do the right thing. Games are really cool, and that’s my rant.
Post by: Deguello on March 08, 2007, 03:41:41 AM
Considering the evidence that he argued contrary points only one or two years earlier means he is just orally masturbating, which means there is probably a good reason nobody really pays attention to this weird rant forum at GDC of all places.
Post by: Strell on March 08, 2007, 03:47:36 AM
I AM NOT SAYING IT COULD BE PORTED AS IS. You'd definitely have to drop some of the characters on screen or drop their polygons. But I imagine it would be doable.
However I am not much of a tech guru so maybe someone can clarify my theory here.
Post by: hudsonhawk on March 08, 2007, 04:21:11 AM
I don't think he's being disingenuous here, just hyperbolic.
Post by: ryancoke on March 08, 2007, 05:20:52 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 08, 2007, 05:23:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Just wondering, besides the unproven-on-the-market Spore, what has Chris Hecker created?
A lot of CO2 and 5 metric tons of feces since birth.
Post by: couchmonkey on March 08, 2007, 05:37:40 AM
Anyway, I understand what he's getting at, but I think Nintendo realized that if it wanted to appeal to the mass market, it had to give up some of the power that everyone loves to bandy about.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 08:11:55 AM
Post by: Ceric on March 08, 2007, 08:38:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBobQuote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Just wondering, besides the unproven-on-the-market Spore, what has Chris Hecker created?
Anyone?
Wikipedia Entry
It seems to me the most notable thing he has actually done that effects my life is writed 3D Graphic drivers for Windows.
Post by: Khushrenada on March 08, 2007, 09:03:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Man, I gotta tell ya - I am really sick of the "Wii is so underpowered it can't do good AI" jazz.
Someone please show me one game with good AI. Please?
I have never seen one in my life.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Battalion Wars has the best A.I. I've seen in a game. And that was GameCube game which makes his rant look worse.
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
I should punch each and every one of you in the vagina for making this joke thread about a joke quote from a joke developer spawn four pages. IN THE VAGINA. There's no escaping. Not even for Infernal.
Wait! I have a WHAT? When did this happen?
Post by: hudsonhawk on March 08, 2007, 09:13:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
The point about Chris is he came accross as unprofessional and petulent. In regards to Hudson saying Dead Rising can't go on Wii, do you have any facts? You realize that games with tons of characters on screen has been happening since the PS2 days right? Dynasty Warriors and State of Emergency being two.
Because you're talking orders of magnitude more enemies in games like Dead Rising. Where DW and SoE have hundreds of (identical looking) enemies on screen at once Dead Rising has thousands of different looking characters, all with independent paths. A better analog would be Dynasty Warriors to 99 Nights. Where DW5 on the PS2 could do something like 100-150 characters on screen, N3 can do 2,000. This isn't because the PS2 developers were lazy. Nor does it inherently make N3 a good game (it is, in fact, a terrible game). It's just the kind of thing that plays to the strengths of the multi-core machines like the PS3 and the 360.
Look, you're obviously not capable of accepting the notion of the Wii being low-powered as anything but a myth, but it's true. Hopefully, in the long run, it won't matter because developers will find other, more fun things to do with the Wii's hardware. The Wii has a lot of strengths and will have lots of great, new, exciting gameplay experiences on it. But games like Dead Rising won't be among them. They aren't feasible, they don't play to the system's strengths and wouldn't be worth the level of effort necessary to make it happen.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 09:23:06 AM
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 08, 2007, 12:50:37 PM
As for Dead Rising the zombie AI is dumb during the day cycle and more vicious once they "wake up at night" but don't get me wrong its a fun game but the save system in Dead Rising is one of the most frustrating ever made.
Post by: capamerica on March 08, 2007, 05:46:07 PM
Quote
Remember Maxis developer Chris Hecker calling the Wii a "piece of sh!t"? He has an apology for you.
"I don't know who has read the internet, yesterday. In a [unintelligible] panel I said a bunch of things. I was trying to be thought provoking and entertaining and fun and a lot of the stuff went too far over the top—on the entertaining and fun side, so that it was no longer thought provoking, just inflammatory. And in the process I hurt a bunch of people I care about. And so, I want to apologize now.
When I'm on stage, I'm me. I'm talking talk from me. From me. I'm not representing EA or Maxis.
I want to make two things perfectly clear.
I do not think the Wii is a piece of sh!t. Nintendo needs to be applauded for trying to interface on the controller front, the user interface front, on making games accessible, on making a console that you don't need to mortgage your house to afford.
Secondly, it's totally obvious—and I'm sorry that I implied otherwise—that everyone at Nintendo is passionate at making great games. Some of the games give me hope that we will be seen as an art form on par with movies and books."
Whether or not he was made to apologize by his bosses isn't clear, but it's a good gesture nonetheless.
http://kotaku.com/gaming/wii/spore-developer-chris-hecker-apologizes-for-calling-the-wii-a-piece-of-****-242822.php
I bet EA gave him two options;
Do a public apology or clean out his desk
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 08, 2007, 06:09:14 PM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 08, 2007, 07:45:05 PM
It would be one thing for him to say, "Look, what I said yesterday in regards to Nintendo being a piece of sh*t was definitely overboard and I apologize. However, with that being said..." and then construct an intelligent argument defending himself. It would have been more believable than this. Those comments yesterday didn't come from thin air. He may have been trying to entertain but it was obvious that behind his immature remarks there was some genuine dissatisfaction with Nintendo; and for him to just completely take back everything he said in a "oops, no! I really LOVE Nintendo and don't disagree with anything they're doing!!" manner is just spineless and makes him look worse.
Post by: WuTangTurtle on March 08, 2007, 07:54:01 PM
Post by: Adrock on March 09, 2007, 01:29:50 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on March 09, 2007, 04:48:00 AM
When you're only representing yourself that makes sense. That's sure as hell what I would do. But when you're seen as representative of an organization that does not share your opinion then you kind of have to apologize, just to protect that organization. It isn't fair for them to get negative publicity because of things you said.
If I said something controversial on the news or something where I'm just identified as Ian Sane, local citizen then I wouldn't apologize if I didn't mean it. But if I made a controversial statement at my employer's annual conference and was identified as Ian Sane, employee of Company X then I would apologize. In that case I would consider that the right thing to do.
Chris Hecker looks like an idiot, but not Electronic Arts or Maxis.
Post by: Dryden on March 09, 2007, 05:16:14 AM
That's not to say that the appology isn't warranted - just to say that his original comments should have been put in better context. Anyone have any idea what else was said by anyone - anyone at all in that hour long panel?
Post by: BlkPaladin on March 09, 2007, 05:55:34 AM
We must remember he is progamming a simulation and their AI's are known to eat a lot of CPU power and memory. And spore was considered to be a very ambicious project when it was origanlly announced for the PC where the amount of RAM and the processing power can be set by the developers. In a console setting were the processing power and availbe RAM is decided by the manufactures it can be a major hurdle for developers to port to such machines it is especially disheartening when you have to cut features that may have been "your baby".
And the stuff about the "art" of video games is just pretensious. True there is an art component in any game but games don't sell because they are consider artistic. (ICO comes to mind it a beutiful game but the sales were bad and I found the game play lacking.) The fun aspect is what gets games bought (for the most part) not just because they are considered works or art. If I want art I can go any of many museams in Milwaukee or Chicago. If want want a compelling game experience I go up into my room ploop my but down and play a game.
Post by: Rancid Planet on March 09, 2007, 11:54:26 PM
