Post by: WindyMan on February 13, 2007, 07:31:58 PM
The Evolution tournament has been around since the year 2000, bringing the best fighting game players from all over the world together to see who's the best of the best. Now heading into its seventh championship season, the stakes are higher than ever with more than $100,000 on the line over five tournaments across the United States.
Recently, the organizers have revealed the list of games that will be featured at in the tournament. Among the usual suspects—Street Fighter 3, Capcom vs. SNK 2, Guilty Gear XX, Tekken 5, etc.—a new game will be making its Evolution debut. That game is Super Smash Bros. Melee.
SSBM has really never been taken seriously by the fighting game community over the years, despite the complexity hidden beneath its simplicity. It gained some notoriety as a true top-level tournament game by being featured during the 2006 Major League Gaming campaign. However, now that the Evolution boys have picked it up and placed it along side legendary fighters like Street Fighter 3: Third Strike and Super Street Fighter II Turbo, it seems about time for Melee to truly be considered a real fighting game.
The Evolution championship series will get underway next month in Austin, TX. If you think you're good enough to take on the best Smashers in the world, hit up the Evolution website for details on how to enter.
Post by: 18 Days on February 13, 2007, 10:25:12 PM
Post by: Shift Key on February 13, 2007, 10:29:04 PM
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Originally posted by: 18 Days
It better be 4 player with items on random stage. Otherwise you might as well catch cancer.
I endorse this match setup. Anything else is just not crazy enough to tolerate.
Post by: 18 Days on February 13, 2007, 10:35:06 PM
Post by: Nick DiMola on February 14, 2007, 12:48:41 AM
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Originally posted by: 18 Days
It better be 4 player with items on random stage. Otherwise you might as well catch cancer.
Any tournaments I have ever played in are usually 1v1 no items on a stage like Final Destination or Battlefield. I have seen a 4 player free-for-all with items/random stages but that one wasn't really very competitive and didn't really guarantee the winner was the best fighter.
Post by: Galford on February 14, 2007, 12:57:41 AM
Well I'll say this is a simpathy vote for the GC.
Every other AAA on the GC can be found on other consoles.
How are they going to do this? SSBM is a fighting game for people
who can't play real fighting games. Four player mode turns into a button mashing mess.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 14, 2007, 01:30:13 AM
Post by: Ceric on February 14, 2007, 01:52:10 AM
Post by: Vance on February 14, 2007, 02:33:51 AM
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Originally posted by: Ceric
I just th ink its a pretty big coincidence that they are just getting around to doing this.
Actually, it isn't. As someone who has actively participated with the discussions at shoryuken.com (one of the main forums by the people who organize, promote, and contribute to EVO), people have been pitching to add Super Smash Brothers Melee to the fighting game tournament for years. The only problem besides getting enough momentum and support to add the game to the list was coming up with a standard list of tournament rules (like what stages, characters, and game settings are/aren't allowed) that's fair to all players while being consistent as possible to how previous SSBM tournaments have been organized.
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Originally posted by: 18 Days
Wavedashing isn't a skill, it's a glitch. Exploiting it is lame.
This is like saying exploiting combos in Street Fighter II is lame, or exploiting snaking in F-Zero GX and Mario Kart DS is lame. You could choose to ignore the fact that these moves exist but you're probably not going to win a lot of tournaments in the process.
Post by: Ceric on February 14, 2007, 03:14:41 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2007, 03:26:31 AM
Post by: darknight06 on February 14, 2007, 04:37:29 AM
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How are they going to do this? SSBM is a fighting game for people who can't play real fighting games. Four player mode turns into a button mashing mess.
Nobody EVER plays 4 player mode with items on in a tournament, and you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT button mash in this game. This is actually one of the most unfriendly games I've ever seen for button mashing, it arguably comes second only to Virtua Fighter in terms of mashing. Now if the only way you ever played the game was 4 player Melee with items, then of course you're gonna say something like that, but anyone who plays this through the 1v1 tournament rules knows that 95% of the crutches a beginner could use in 4v4 items play are gone in 1v1. You actually have to understand how the engine works and believe me when I say the engine is quite extensive for something that was believed to not be a serious game.
Post by: Galford on February 14, 2007, 04:39:10 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 14, 2007, 05:07:27 AM
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Originally posted by: darknight06
Nobody EVER plays 4 player mode with items on in a tournament, and you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT button mash in this game.
He meant "C-stick mashing".
I've been in four player games where a lone Marth player will stand in the middle of the stage and just C-stick back and forth, picking people off.
The sad truth is, you either mercilessly hunt the Marth player (which then results in them whining about being picked on) or they'll steal kills by waiting for you and a better player to be tearing into each other and then come in with that goddamn near-instant smash attack which actually gets stronger when you use it from further away and hit with the tip and snake kills that way. Marth is a lethal force, be it in tournaments or in 4 player matches.
But C-sticking in a game like SSBM is still guaranteed to net you some kills anyway, just because the game moves so quickly and is so hectic that a C-sticker is bound to catch people with their smashes, especially if they cherry-pick players who are locked in combat with someone else. Thus, button mashing is still a somewhat legitimate strategy, compared to SSB64 where button mashing would get you absolutely creamed every time.
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The only problem besides getting enough momentum and support to add the game to the list was coming up with a standard list of tournament rules (like what stages, characters, and game settings are/aren't allowed) that's fair to all players while being consistent as possible to how previous SSBM tournaments have been organized.
See, that actually sounds encouraging.
Ban the top tier and you could have some very interesting matches.
Post by: Nephilim on February 14, 2007, 05:47:54 AM
I ended up being beaten by the winner in sudden death lol
4 play can be pretty damn exciting
only peple who seem to hate melee is the damn sf alpha kiddies anyway, doesnt seem like the other fighting game fans would really care
Post by: Ian Sane on February 14, 2007, 05:54:21 AM
This sounds like the most boring horsesh!t in the world. The only reason I like SSBM is because of the crazyness of four player battles with random items. If I want to just play one on one in a fighting game I'd prefer to play something like Street Fighter. I've never recognized SSB as a fighting game because I find if you actually play it like a fighting game it isn't any fun. It works best as a wild crazy battle royale game.
Though when playing SSBM my friends and I do have two rules. Random fighter selection and no C-stick smashing. Hell I didn't even use C-stick smashing when unlocking the sound test. I usually forget it even exists. Random fighter selection is to make up for any unbalanced characters and is used in virtually every fighting game we play.
Post by: Vance on February 14, 2007, 05:59:48 AM
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Originally posted by: Ceric
Hey Vance, you seem to be in the know. Will they be using the Tournament feature int SSBM and is there some place where I could look at the rules and restrictions there going to use? I'm sort of curious.
They haven't posted game-specific rules for SSBM yet, but if you go to the Player's Guide in the Evolution website, they list the rules that are going to be applied to all games, as well as the game-specific rules for games that have already been established (like Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Guilty Gear XX Slash, etc.) Hope this helps.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 14, 2007, 07:31:03 AM
Post by: Nephilim on February 14, 2007, 07:46:52 AM
whole point of touraments is to crown the best player... kind of lazy for top players to say final destination only
Post by: Ian Sane on February 14, 2007, 07:51:15 AM
I understand that. I'm just saying that I personally would find playing SSBM in a tournament setting to be incredibly dull.
Post by: JonLeung on February 14, 2007, 08:19:22 AM
QuoteI was going to say exactly the same thing.
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Ian: Chaos is nice at a party but at a tournament you don't want random factors involved since you want to see how good these players are, not how much luck they have. Maybe SSBB could have a standardized item spawn order for tournaments that would avoid randomness but still involve item fighting skills...
It's a pain in a torunament with items when you're jumping around and something appears from the top of the screen giving you next to no time to react and you get "Smashed" off because it happened to be explosive. In a case like that, you were defeated by bad luck.
Items are cool, so if they only appeared in a particular spot and timed intervals or something, some sort of more controlled thing, then it could be more fair.
The SSB games ARE fighting games...just a different sort of fighting game, that's all. Remove the randomness and you still require skill to win. I'm bored of SSB:M, however, I still say, ABOUT TIME!
Post by: darknight06 on February 14, 2007, 08:31:01 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 14, 2007, 08:32:39 AM
This phenomenon typically occurs while standing on an incline when a Bob-omb spawns right at your feet, hits the incline, rolls for .001 seconds, registers contact with the player and detonates.
So yeah, it's entirely possible for a player to be winning and then just be randomly wiped out of the game by a retarded item spawn. That's the kind of thing you DON'T want at tourneys.
Post by: Galford on February 14, 2007, 01:34:12 PM
I guess it's my own personal gripe against the game itself and some of it's players. I've been beaten by many a player on pure speed and reflexes only to watch those same people not last 2 matches against the computer in DOA. I just wish many of the people who played SSM went on to play other fighting games. They don't they just stay with SSB because their sorta good at it and don't want to lose or try something harder.
Oh well the entire fighting game community is fractured as hell. One look over at SRK proves that.
Post by: Dasmos on February 14, 2007, 01:40:50 PM
QuoteThose things are lame. You're lame.
Originally posted by: VanceQuote
Originally posted by: 18 Days
Wavedashing isn't a skill, it's a glitch. Exploiting it is lame.
This is like saying exploiting combos in Street Fighter II is lame, or exploiting snaking in F-Zero GX and Mario Kart DS is lame. You could choose to ignore the fact that these moves exist but you're probably not going to win a lot of tournaments in the process.
I don't really see how wavedashing is that helpful, except for edgehogging.
Post by: Arbok on February 14, 2007, 05:15:52 PM
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Originally posted by: Dasmos
I don't really see how wavedashing is that helpful, except for edgehogging.
Do it with Luigi, it's amazing how quickly he can move across the level with it. Another huge plus of it is being able to do Smash attacks while moving.
Post by: Shift Key on February 15, 2007, 12:21:37 AM
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Non-Fox/Falco players need not apply.
I throw my gauntlet at your face. I lost count of the number of times that I've dominated Falco/Fox players using Link or Pikachu. Bring it.
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Ian: Chaos is nice at a party but at a tournament you don't want random factors involved since you want to see how good these players are, not how much luck they have. Maybe SSBB could have a standardized item spawn order for tournaments that would avoid randomness but still involve item fighting skills...
Tell that to the people who lose a Mario Kart match because someone else got a lucky Thunderbolt or Red Shell.
There are some items that are damn cruel (a well-placed proximity mine that you forget about) and others that can be hilarious (the "chink" sound of the Home Run Bat when you get the timing right) but I say that items are part of what SSBM is about - they add a layer of luck to the fight. Take them out and you may as well go play DOA or something.
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Originally posted by: Galford
I just wish many of the people who played SSM went on to play other fighting games. They don't they just stay with SSB because their sorta good at it and don't want to lose or try something harder.
Harder? No, just because other fighting games have a lot more buttons to use, doesn't make them any more harder than SSBM. I find SC, MK and other fighting games to be simply too linear. Sure, linking together a 25-hit-combo takes skill, but how will that help you if your opponent gains momentum in the fight? I guess real fighting games don't give much opportunity for swinging momentum (hence the 3 rounds per match) where I rather see a single match which lasts longer but gives people more chance to take control of the fight.
I remember having some epic battles with my brother on Hyrule Castle in SSBM (which is so badly designed but leaves a lot of areas to corner your opponent), and that was because you had to think about your surroundings at the same time as thinking about the fight. Position, items, opportunity, momentum. Levels like Final Destination take away that SSB feel of the game and leave it as nothing more than a generic fighter.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 15, 2007, 12:39:13 AM
Post by: Shift Key on February 15, 2007, 05:00:01 PM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If you want to have randomness in the game you'd need a large number of matches to even that out in a tournament (because it'd suck to see a match go to the weaker player because of a lucky item spawn) so the better player will still win more. Since noone has the time to run multiple matches for each bracket the randomness gets minimized so the skill becomes apparent immediately.
Its called multiple lives.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 15, 2007, 05:39:15 PM
Post by: Shift Key on February 15, 2007, 07:32:18 PM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Would still need to be 30+ to eliminate the effects of randomness. 3 lives means losing one to an unlucky bobomb spawn can turn the match.
The good players deal with the Bobomb or GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE.
If you're still complaining about this then you should go back and play the game again. Its not that hard to see the items drop.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 16, 2007, 01:56:18 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 16, 2007, 07:54:03 AM
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Originally posted by: Shift Key The good players deal with the Bobomb or GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE.
Did you miss where I said...
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Sometimes, while playing SSBM, a player will just randomly explode and be hurled off the screen.
This phenomenon typically occurs while standing on an incline when a Bob-omb spawns right at your feet, hits the incline, rolls for .001 seconds, registers contact with the player and detonates.
I've seen this happen on quite a few occasions, especially with boxes. When there's zero time elapsing between when the item appears and starts to roll on top of you, it would take nothing short of Jedi powers of perception to avoid it.
Again, you DON'T want that in a tournament.
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Originally posted by: Shift Key I throw my gauntlet at your face. I lost count of the number of times that I've dominated Falco/Fox players using Link or Pikachu. Bring it.
Let's make a bet: If anyone gets into the top 5 in the 2007 Evo tournament with Link or Pikachu, I'll buy you the Wii game of your choice. Otherwise, you buy the Wii game of my choice for me.
Deal?
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on February 16, 2007, 10:31:56 AM
Have you ever read this essay? It seems to me that that argument could be used in support of wave-dashing. I think it's okay to exploit wave-dashing even though it's a bug (and I hope it's gone in Brawl). I can't pull it off, but I'd never enter a tournament with the expectation that it wouldn't be used against me, because anyone who whines that it shouldn't be allowed is, to use that essay writer's term, a scrub. A scrub sets up rules of engagement, holding back his game. In fact, he's not even playing the same game as competitive players. To me, turning off items and only playing on two stages sounds extraordinarily scrublike. Something random might happen and cost you* the match, you say? That's part of the game. You didn't get the best items? That's part of the game. Maybe you could have gotten the best items if you had ever learned how. Maybe you could have made do with the items you got if you had learned how to use them.
I don't expect to change any minds. I understand why tournaments are played that way. I just think it's weak. I might actually find it exciting to watch a replay of a tournament match if it weren't for all the limitations the players put on themselves. As it is, the ones I've seen were very, very boring.
*This is a hypothetical you. Not you, personally.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 16, 2007, 10:55:44 AM
In that sense, they're only competing on one aspect of the game, not the entire game. SSBM with random items and 4 players is a completely different game to what they'll be playing at Evo.
I likewise hope wavedashing is eliminated in Brawl.
Post by: Entroper on February 16, 2007, 12:29:47 PM
You can't play without items, items are an essential part of the game. I can see an argument for eliminating, say, the Bob-omb, since they add too much randomness. But most items don't have this problem. Using items, getting to them quickly, preventing your opponent from using them, defending against item attacks, these are all important skills in Melee.
I also don't have a problem with 4-player matches in a tournament setting. Keeping a level head, taking opportunities as they come, and avoiding being juggled by 3 other players are, once again, important skills. If I were to design a tournament, there would be 4-player matches and 1v1 matches, and your standings would depend on points scored in each match.
Post by: Shift Key on February 16, 2007, 01:21:20 PM
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
ite a few occasions, especially with boxes. When there's zero time elapsing between when the item appears and starts to roll on top of you, it would take nothing short of Jedi powers of perception to avoid it.
Again, you DON'T want that in a tournament.
Two strategies immediately come to mind.
1. Stay away from sloping areas. On the huge maps this is easy to do. Think of it as King of the Mountain or something - find a favourable area and defend it like a drunk protects a keg. Some players perform better on flat areas, others do better from above or below an opponent.
2. Move around. This won't be a guaranteed strategy due to the randomness of the item spawns. But in generalities, the place where an item just dropped is less likely to have another item drop there in the next x seconds when compared to the rest of the map. Fighting in the same area is asking for randomness to have an impact.
I'm all for a subset of items being used randomly, but if you take out items completely then you just aren't playing SSB.
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Let's make a bet: If anyone gets into the top 5 in the 2007 Evo tournament with Link or Pikachu, I'll buy you the Wii game of your choice. Otherwise, you buy the Wii game of my choice for me.
Deal?
Get nicked. The odds are stacked heavily in your favour because its a tournament. Link is actually pretty limited unless you use his weapons to damage from a distance at every opportunity - and the logistics of using the weapons correctly requires a lot of combo-style moves to deal significant damage. Pikachu's just hilarious to use - thunderbolting a player from the bottom of the level in particular. I don't think there will be many people using these characters because their fighting style is different to the safer and easier to execute style of, say, Fox - blast blast blast, jetpack, throw, etc.
But that doesn't change my opinion that they are very powerful in the right hands.
Post by: UncleBob on February 16, 2007, 02:56:28 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 16, 2007, 03:35:18 PM
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Originally posted by: Shift Key
1. Stay away from sloping areas. On the huge maps this is easy to do. Think of it as King of the Mountain or something - find a favourable area and defend it like a drunk protects a keg. Some players perform better on flat areas, others do better from above or below an opponent.
Actually (and I should have mentioned this sooner), given that matches are only going to be played on flat levels anyway, it won't actually be an issue.
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2. Move around. This won't be a guaranteed strategy due to the randomness of the item spawns. But in generalities, the place where an item just dropped is less likely to have another item drop there in the next x seconds when compared to the rest of the map. Fighting in the same area is asking for randomness to have an impact.
I'm all for a subset of items being used randomly, but if you take out items completely then you just aren't playing SSB.
Again, I'm inclined to agree, but the idea behind these tournaments is to remove randomness. Nothing but a 1v1 fight to see who can do the most with their character and raw skill.
It's actually rather surprising that SSBM was brought into this tournament at all, and while I'm not a tournament buff, if items were always set to on, I can see why they wouldn't allow it in the Evo tournament because any randomness would make the game unfit in their eyes.
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Get nicked. The odds are stacked heavily in your favour because its a tournament.
Ya think?
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But that doesn't change my opinion that they are very powerful in the right hands.
Naturally. I'm not arguing that these characters can be very powerful in the right hands. My only argument is that the game has tiers, not that skilled players can't do well with the characters, only that they could do better with the higher-tiered characters.
FYI, I'm a die-hard Bowser player and I convinced a friend to learn Marth just so I could practice against him.
Post by: Koekoenutt on February 17, 2007, 08:56:04 AM
From what I've known from tournies around the US, I thought the loser picks the level. I thought only moving levels were restricted, and that the loser or new comer gets to pick the level. I just think that since everyone ussually is the same characters, due to character tier and popularity, that the same levels are always getting picked. I've seen a lot of interesting and fun 1v1, no item matches online and I really don't think the tournie style of playing is really that dull. You can actually learn a lot from watching them, and I don't mean wavedashing. Sure, A lot of tournies are won with the higher tier characters, but I have seen A LOT of videos and tournies won by Peach and Link. Lately, The Ice Climbers have been winning a lot of matches to, becuase of a new "glitch" that always you to have complete control over both characters, for the most part.
I personally can't do wavedashing effectively, and I do think it should be taken care of in Brawl. Although, I do see where it has now became an underground move, and seeing them make it an actual legit move in the game and making it easier to pull off for the sake of everyone. I don't fully agree with it, but I can still see it being thought about in development.
I really can't stand any new MK games, and DoA really never interested me either. I do love fighting games though, especially Soul Caliber titles, but I can't stand how newer fighting games just don't flow with each other. Mostly all the moves are kind of choppy, and I understand it's to stop people from button mashing, but the moves and combos don't really flow together in my opinion. SSBM is a very intense and smooth playing 1v1 game, and it really does show off the cream of your crops. When my friends and I get together to play Smash Brother Melee, we don't let each other use C-Sticking and we don't use items. Personally think items makes some people cowards and sit at the end of the screen and constantly running around from people until they get an item. A good example is having Samus sit at one end of Hyrule Castle, and constantly using ranged attacks until an item falls by them to come into a battle. Don't get me wrong, we play with items here and there, but showing off your raw skills and not having to deal with trying to organize and control the chaos around you is really fun. Situations like this, your every move is vital and the slightest bit of hestitation can cost you a life. You can also really find your weakness with a certain character doing 1v1 and improve your game a lot just in that respect.
It's still an epic battle that is chaotic, fast paced, and intense. I also think throwing and short jumps becomes more insential with no items, but this is just my opinion and don't really expect to change other peoples minds about how to play the game. I support 4 player items all the way, but I also understand the depth of 1v1 in Melee. I just fully support the 1v1, no items tournies and think it opens another element to the game that most people don't see for themselves. Everyone has their own style and way of playing the game, and in the end, I would like to see every option and way of playing the game open to everyone, even in the tournies.
Post by: Mesu on February 18, 2007, 04:17:52 PM
Having meelee at evolution could pull more people into the smaller smash brothers tournaments and maybe it will carry over into brawl.
I think they made the right decision not to make it 4 player free for all, too much opportunies for someone to get ganged 3 vs 1(you might have a scenerio where someone has enemies who don't care about fairness). Smash bros. is alot of different things and one of those is a great one on one fighter.
Also free for all just doesn't have much potential as entertainment for some crowd watching. I know some people are bored watching one on one smash bros, but then alot of people also aren't. I'm not sure that could be said about free for all. When people talk about watching 1 on 1 being boring they are comparing it to playing free for all.
I don't know about items though. I've been to 2 tournaments before, one with items and one without items, both were fun and were basically the same, except the one with items had a better crowd response(things like when someone gets a poison mushroom, it's was very supsenseful to see if they survive). Those tournaments were probably just not large enough to have controversy though.
Wavedashes are fun and very useful. Very subtle movements are possible in meelee and that's one of its strengths. The only downside is they feel like it wears the controllers down much faster.
