Post by: MegaByte on January 11, 2007, 06:43:49 PM
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess has been anticipated for so long, it’s hard to believe that it’s actually here. With several years of development and hype behind the game, there will inevitably be a few people who feel disappointed. However, Twilight Princess is everything Zelda fans have been waiting for, a truly expansive adventure masterpiece and a final hurrah for the little box called GameCube. Presentation, storytelling, and game mechanics all come together for a once-in-a-generation experience.
As usual, Twilight Princess tells the story of one of the legendary Links, a chosen hero from a small village tasked with saving the kingdom of Hyrule and Princess Zelda from inevitable doom. Casting a shadow over Hyrule, the Twilight Realm embodies the duality found in previous Zelda games, and it is in this realm that Link undergoes a transformation into a wolf. Early parts of the story involve an effort to eradicate the invading twilight from the land, but through various plot developments, the tale becomes much more than that.
While reminiscent of Link’s rabbit transformation in A Link to the Past, as a wolf, Link actually retains versions of many of his attacks. Though Link in human form already possesses a unique connection with wildlife, in his beast form, he gains animal senses and the ability to talk with the animals. Controls are designed to mimic the four-legged form and have advantages and disadvantages compared to Link’s human form. Some puzzles require you to switch between Link’s two forms.
Twilight Princess has a much different tone than The Wind Waker, replacing the whimsical characters and events with far darker themes and situations. Still, Nintendo does manage to retain certain critical elements such as large facial expressions, several comic moments, and even some cartoon effects and humor, which serve to expand the personality of the game.
Midna is an imp from the Twilight Realm who helps Link escape from a jail early in the game. While Link is in wolf form, she rides on his back and helps him get to hard-to-reach places. When Link is in human form, Midna hides in Link’s shadow but can be called upon for assistance. At first, Midna differs greatly from the helpful Navi, beginning the adventure offering subtle back-handed advice while giggling to herself and even deriding Link while getting him to do her bidding. Though hiding her true motives, her character develops the most in the game, and she eventually warms up to the hero.
Though Link doesn’t start out asleep as he does in many of the Zelda games, the game begins slowly, methodically introducing each new item, weapon, and skill, which allows players completely new to the series to get into the game. The first half of the game focuses on story development, while the latter half involves mostly dungeon quests. The scope of the game is huge, and while fairly linear, the game offers plenty of locales to explore. Hyrule is big enough this time around that its lands are separated into provinces.
Like many recent Nintendo games, The Wind Waker suffered from a serious lack of challenge. Twilight Princess is not significantly more difficult, but I was pleased to actually see the Game Over screen, which I never encountered in its predecessor. Players do respawn close to where they perished, rather than restarting an entire segment, which softens the consequence of dying considerably. Combat generally proceeds as in previous Zelda games with the sword as the primary weapon and L-targeting serving as an important battle mechanic. Throughout the game, Link can learn special new techniques, which make fighting a little more dynamic and dramatic. While not too difficult to take down once their weakness is discovered, the bosses are impressive creations that often require the use of a combination of different items to defeat.
It’s not just the fighting difficulty that has been cranked up. In previous games, most Zelda puzzles seemed to naturally be completed by an “I wonder what will happen if I try this" mentality. The puzzles in Twilight Princess, while still logical, are not always as obvious, which could result in players wandering around a fair amount if the environments are not meticulously examined, but none of the puzzles are actually too dastardly in design.
While The Wind Waker was also an amazing game due to its visual style and sense of fun, it was somewhat short. Twilight Princess more than addresses this problem by including more dungeons than any Zelda game since Ocarina of Time. The dungeons aren’t trivial ordeals, either. The standard block and button pushing puzzles return, but are accompanied by others that make use of new weapons such as the magnetic iron boots and Spider-man-inspired double claw shots. Classic locations such as the Forest Temple, Zora’s Domain, and Death Mountain are re-imagined, with new locations making an appearance. Hyrule Field is expansive, but traveling it on horse is not the exercise in monotony that Wind Waker’s waters were.
A downside to the game’s length is that some of it does feel a little too much like filler. There are several collect-a-thons, some required and some not, which break up the pace of an otherwise excellent experience. A good example of what to expect is that heart containers are now made up of five pieces instead of the classic four. Of course, mini-games like fishing are included for those players who specifically want to take a break from the epic adventure.
Much of the game, from the cinematic title screen to familiar areas within Hyrule, is clearly meant to evoke a next-generation Ocarina of Time. While perhaps it doesn’t possess quite the huge jump in design that Ocarina of Time did, Twilight Princess is a more than competent evolution of the series and the dedication developers put into it shows. Twilight Princess supersedes Ocarina of Time in design, and with such a superior production, it’s hard to go back. The twilight-covered Hyrule in particular provides a unique and eerie atmosphere, and the more standard locales each exude their own type of beauty that simply must be experienced to be fully appreciated.
Though not without faults, the graphics are easily some of the best on GameCube, and outclass those found in many next-gen titles. Cut-scenes are all rendered in real-time. Especially for those replaying certain sections, Nintendo has graciously included a skip button (Start) for cinema scenes. Sound is sometimes a little bland, but offers its share of solid themes, usually rearranged versions of classic Zelda music.
Of course, with the dual format GameCube and Wii release, the big question on people’s minds is which game offers the superior experience. The answer is both and neither because both games have their benefits and drawbacks. For the minority of gamers that have 16:9 televisions, the GameCube version does lack the Wii’s widescreen support, though both versions support progressive scan. However, it does include third-person camera controls, which can be adjusted with the C-stick. Item access is also a bit more convenient due to the traditional controller layout. As for the sword controls, the GameCube version is more responsive since gestures do not need to be interpreted, resulting in gameplay that feels a little bit faster. However, the trade-off is that the spin attack cannot be performed as quickly, and any weapons involving aiming are much slower with less precise targeting. Link does gain one extra crouching move while riding Epona.
The Wii version can be played in a more laid back manner due to its split controller design, but the GC version was where the original control scheme was devised and is likely to feel slightly more natural to Zelda veterans. The control schemes between the two versions are intuitive enough that players can naturally switch between the two. The sole issue to consider is that the entire game is reversed on the Wii version, meaning everything left is right and vice-versa, which can be disorienting. For the purists, Link retains his traditional left-handedness in the GameCube version.
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is one of those few genre-defining games that while clearly dedicated to fans of the series, also serves as a wonderful adventure for those new to the series. Zelda revisits many of the ideas that made the Zelda series classic, but does include enough new content to make it an original and satisfying experience. In an era of shortened and simplified games, Twilight Princess stands as a testament to the benefit of high production games. As such, Twilight Princess is a game for all gamers and easily one of the greatest games ever crafted.
Pros:
Cons:
Graphics: 10.0
While it may not compare to some of the best next-gen graphics out there, Twilight Princess boasts some of the most gorgeous environments found on GameCube. The Twilight Realm utilizes effects more often seen on Xbox, such as bloom lighting, as well as expressing a unique almost electronic component. Other effects such as the wolf sense, as well as elemental effects such as water and lava are downright amazing for the aging system. Twilight Princess isn’t without its share of blurry textures or low polygon count models, but overall the game delivers its finely balanced realism and character in breathtaking ways.
Sound: 9.0
In its quest to provide a more atmospheric experience, the music often becomes too ambient and has little of the character that made video game soundtracks a celebrated exposition. Songs that avoid this pitfall, such as the triumphant Hyrule Field theme, embody the true Zelda experience. It’s a little disappointing to not hear a fully orchestrated score after some earlier discussion of the possibility. While there is no true voice acting, Midna’s voice reflects her unique personality and never evokes the annoying qualities of Ocarina’s “Hey, Listen!"
Control: 9.0
The key difference between the GameCube and Wii versions is the control scheme. Both versions have their strengths and weaknesses. Compared to the Wii version, aiming controls are sluggish. However, standard sword attacks are performed faster, item access is slightly more expedient, and the inclusion of camera control adds a small amount of convenience compared to the Wii version.
Gameplay: 9.5
Twilight Princess boldly captures the classic 3D Zelda feel while adding abilities like fighting while on horseback. The wolf form alters the traditional gameplay mechanics and adds unique features like wolf sense. Zelda, while endeavoring to convey a cinematic experience is only truly successful in that regard due to its excellent gameplay. Whether it is through puzzles or simple world exploration, Twilight Princess is engaging and dynamic.
Lastability: 9.0
The adventure is quite epic, easily spanning several dozen hours of gameplay even without completing all of the sidequests. While players probably won’t want to play it again immediately after such a lengthy adventure, the kingdom of Hyrule is large and beckons players to explore its depths.
Final: 10.0
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is the golden capstone of GameCube titles. The only reason any GameCube owner shouldn’t have already purchased this game is if they would prefer to have the Wii version. The fact is that both versions are nearly identical and neither outclasses the other, so preferences in control or widescreen support are the only things to consider. Though Nintendo would rather players forget it existed, the GameCube version was the original envisioning of the game and offers a spectacular adventure that all gamers should experience.
Post by: Bloodworth on January 11, 2007, 08:56:04 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 11, 2007, 11:52:31 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2007, 04:55:44 AM
I disagree. I could hum probably at least 80% of the Ocarina dungeon themes. If you played them for me I could probably identify which was which. I don't know the Twilight Princess dungeon themes at all.
I remember the Forest Temple in OoT has this sound in the background that sounds like a big monster sneaking up on you. The first time I heard that I freaked, assuming that something actually was sneaking up on me or that there was a big monster behind the next door. For some reason though whenever I think about what the Forest Temple looks like the Cure song The Hanging Garden pops in my head.
The music in the Shadow Temple sounded like the dead singing to you. The dungeon scared the hell out of me and the music was a big part of that.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 12, 2007, 05:02:24 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2007, 05:19:17 AM
I've only beaten it fully once. I've played it twice I guess. The N64 game and the Master Quest.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 12, 2007, 05:44:19 AM
Or you've spent too much time in each dungeon.
My typical Ocarina dungeon play time was 3 hours, and i'd remember the music after my first play thru (nevermind i've played the game nearly ten times, n64 drought, lols)
I remember Majora's Mask dungeon music, typical time: 3 hours.
I remember Wind Waker's music only because I've played it twice and I have the soundtrack.
I'm not done with TP yet, but my average dungeon time is 2 hours sharp, and I don't clearly remember any of their themes. Maybe cuz my mind was busy zelda-ing.
Post by: Caliban on January 12, 2007, 05:44:54 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 12, 2007, 06:36:28 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2007, 06:55:05 AM
Well I am a musician.
I typically know the music from older games more just because the music is less subtle. In the old days game music was all loud bleeps and bloops of the same volume so you noticed it more. They couldn't do ambient music then so they didn't.
There isn't anything particularly wrong with the TP dungeon music. It just isn't catchy but that doesn't really hurt the game at all.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 12, 2007, 07:40:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bloodworth
Aaron has a great point here with the music. The dungeons could use more than deep tones and clanking chimes.
I agree with him as well. Save for some select songs and the great remixes of the classic themes, I thought the soundtrack was a little too subtle and lacks the "oomph" the earlier musical scores had.
However, I see this as both a good thing and a bad thing. Good because you don't have a glaringly annoying song playing in the backgrounds, and lets you focus on the task ahead. Bad because it fails to give the dungeon the ambiance it needs.
Despite this, I think the soundtrack is an improvement over the WW soundtrack, which felt even more lacking.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 12, 2007, 08:28:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
Originally posted by: Bloodworth
Aaron has a great point here with the music. The dungeons could use more than deep tones and clanking chimes.
I agree with him as well. Save for some select songs and the great remixes of the classic themes, I thought the soundtrack was a little too subtle and lacks the "oomph" the earlier musical scores had.
However, I see this as both a good thing and a bad thing. Good because you don't have a glaringly annoying song playing in the backgrounds, and lets you focus on the task ahead. Bad because it fails to give the dungeon the ambiance it needs.
Despite this, I think the soundtrack is an improvement over the WW soundtrack, which felt even more lacking.
I agree about WW soundtracks which, even though I loved the game, felt was really lacking. Twilight Princess had some great music, though nothing to to shout about in the dungeons. I would like to know Nintendo's specific reason for toning the dungeon music down.
Post by: mantidor on January 12, 2007, 08:45:24 AM
And talking about that, I can't wait for the full soundtrack of the game, the one that came with that promotion is too limited.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 12, 2007, 11:59:09 AM
Plus Twilight Princess has the whole "I want to call Epona, oh there's none of that special plant here, guess I have to walk" routine.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on January 12, 2007, 12:58:26 PM
Post by: Mario on January 12, 2007, 02:17:42 PM
Post by: mantidor on January 12, 2007, 02:27:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
The best song in TP, and the reason I was impressed by its soundtrack, is the song that plays when you first go to Hyrule Castle to meet Zelda. That song reminded me of Chrono Trigger music.
Which song is that? isn't it just the generic theme of the twilight realm?
Post by: IceCold on January 12, 2007, 05:15:33 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 12, 2007, 06:25:54 PM
Post by: Klapaucius on January 12, 2007, 10:20:08 PM
Then the review. Well, I see no problem whatsoever with the music in Twilight Princess. It's as beautiful as any other Zelda, and I can't wait to import the OST as soon as its released in Japan.
I love the Gamcube version, and I'm quite happy to never play the Wii version. The controls suit me fine, and I can't imagine playing the game mirrored, and with a Wii-mote. Sections like the Sky Temple boss make me think how frustrating it would be with a Wii-mote. But then, I'm just a rubbish gamer.
Thanks for the review. It confirmed what I already knew - the Gamecube version of TP is brilliant.
Post by: sycomonkey on January 13, 2007, 11:31:47 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on January 13, 2007, 11:44:18 AM
The only song that stand out to me now from the Zelda series are Song of Storms and the music on Mt Tamaranch in Link's Awakening. I'd just sit and listen to those sometimes. But they would have been distracting if they had been in a dungeon or something.
I love the ambience in this. Arguably games like Metroid Prime have done the ambience/enjoyability mix better, but it's good. I love the night-time field music.
Post by: IceCold on January 13, 2007, 02:18:15 PM
QuoteAfter putting time into both games, I completely agree with you.. which makes me even more excited about the next Zelda.
Originally posted by: sycomonkey
After having beat it on the Wii I can not possibly imagine playing this game on a cube controller.... Just the pointing function alone is fantastic. I would say that it's worth it to trade in your cube version when you get a Wii, because honestly being able to point where you want to shoot arrows/slingshot/clawshot is completely worth it. Gesturing the wiimote to swing the sword is perfectly responsive and the item inventory is just about the coolest one I've ever seen in any game, so basically I would say that this review misses the mark. But that's just me.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 13, 2007, 02:52:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceColdQuoteAfter putting time into both games, I completely agree with you.. which makes me even more excited about the next Zelda.
Originally posted by: sycomonkey
After having beat it on the Wii I can not possibly imagine playing this game on a cube controller.... Just the pointing function alone is fantastic. I would say that it's worth it to trade in your cube version when you get a Wii, because honestly being able to point where you want to shoot arrows/slingshot/clawshot is completely worth it. Gesturing the wiimote to swing the sword is perfectly responsive and the item inventory is just about the coolest one I've ever seen in any game, so basically I would say that this review misses the mark. But that's just me.
Not only do I agree with both you of you, but I think most people can agree that the next Zelda, made just for the Wii should be amazing. They already have a solid design from integrating Wii controls but the possibilities of them focusing their efforts on making it for the Wii is exciting!
Post by: Bloodworth on January 13, 2007, 03:41:35 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 13, 2007, 04:05:41 PM
I absolutely HATED the water temple and the sky temple. The water temple made me drop F bombs like I was a sailor (ask SB, he was there). The sky temple wasn't as annoying but did have an irritating design.
Which begs the question; WHY is the water dungeon always the most annoying dungeon in the Zelda games? The dungeon in OoT and MM were annoying as well hell, and the dungeon in TP carries on that tradition proudly.
I know they just want to make hard, challenging levels, but they really don't need to go down the aggravating path.
Outside those issues, I loved TP. The story is perhaps the best in all the Zelda games. It is also the best presented. The facial expressions added a grand level of emotion to the characters and the story.
Post by: Smoke39 on January 13, 2007, 04:30:30 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 13, 2007, 05:27:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39
The water temple was the first one that I really liked. The sky temple wasn't bad. Definitely not aggrivating. Nothing in TP is very hard.
Just to clarify the water temple is dungeon 3 right? If so it was relatively easy besides finding the big key which was hidden in a stupid place. At the moment I'm on the sky temple, and can see why some are frustrated.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 13, 2007, 07:28:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolutionQuote
Originally posted by: Smoke39
The water temple was the first one that I really liked. The sky temple wasn't bad. Definitely not aggrivating. Nothing in TP is very hard.
Just to clarify the water temple is dungeon 3 right? If so it was relatively easy besides finding the big key which was hidden in a stupid place. At the moment I'm on the sky temple, and can see why some are frustrated.
What annoyed me the most is the overall level design of the water dungeon.
It gave me a headache trying to figure where the stairs in the central room lead to, and the small water caves near the end had me and SB pulling our hair trying to figure out where the exits were.
Tedious, annoying level...
EDIT: Another thing, me and SB agreed that they should've made the wolf transformation a quick button press affair. Just in case, I KNOW that we need to press Z in order to summon Midna and transform. But what I mean is that they should've made it so that you can assign the transformation onto one button, and when you press it, you instantly transform into the wolf.
Again, I know that the time it takes to summon Midna and transform into a wolf is short, but considering that you transform a lot in the game it should've been a very quick, instant option. After a while, the process gets tedious.
Post by: Klapaucius on January 13, 2007, 07:44:10 PM
My favourite dungeon is the Temple of Time. Every room had puzzles, it seemed no space was wasted, and the mini-boss was so much fun. I had loads of fun with the boss too, which not only looked cool but the surprise after killing it... Haha. ^_^
Sky Temple was a challenge... I don't mind it, but I despise the boss.
I don't see your problem with the Water Temple. Dropping bombs? What were you bombing so much? X_X
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 14, 2007, 07:12:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Klapaucius
I loved the big spinning stairs, personally. It turned the whole dungeon into one big puzzle.
My favourite dungeon is the Temple of Time. Every room had puzzles, it seemed no space was wasted, and the mini-boss was so much fun. I had loads of fun with the boss too, which not only looked cool but the surprise after killing it... Haha. ^_^
Sky Temple was a challenge... I don't mind it, but I despise the boss.
I don't see your problem with the Water Temple. Dropping bombs? What were you bombing so much? X_X
It's a matter of preference, then. Me and SB were very annoyed at the water temple, and we both agreed that the Zelda series have the tendency of creating water dungeons that are hard and annoying (the water dungeon in OoT perhaps has the most infamy). Hell, SB had already finished the game when I finally got it and even he couldn't figure out how the dungeon worked.
Not dissing anyone that loved the temple. I was just annoyed by how it was designed and it was one of the few instances in TP which made me wish it would end.
As for the bombs, if I remember correctly there were parts where you had to drop bombs in order to open passages.
Or are you talking about my F-bombs? I simply got annoyed of constantly running in circles trying to find the next room.
Post by: Vert1 on January 14, 2007, 08:42:48 AM
Post by: Caliban on January 14, 2007, 09:54:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Klapaucius
Sky Temple was a challenge... I don't mind it, but I despise the boss.
Opposite for me, annoying dungeon but it had one of the coolest boss-battles.
Quote
Originally posted by: sycomonkey
After having beat it on the Wii I can not possibly imagine playing this game on a cube controller....
Definitely.
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
One other thing that keeps me away from giving TP a perfect 10 is the dungeon design.
I absolutely HATED the water temple and the sky temple. The water temple made me drop F bombs like I was a sailor (ask SB, he was there). The sky temple wasn't as annoying but did have an irritating design.
I think TP had the best overall dungeon design, the dungeons were made so that we would have to use a little bit more of our brain. Kids shouldn't play TP unless they can handle such comlexity, isn't that why the game is rated T for Teen (and up), I guess not.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 14, 2007, 09:58:33 AM
Doot-doo-odoot-doot-doooo!
Post by: Klapaucius on January 14, 2007, 11:43:27 AM
Quote
Or are you talking about my F-bombs? I simply got annoyed of constantly running in circles trying to find the next room.
Hehe. I think you confused me with the "F-bombs". :P
Quote
the dungeons were made so that we would have to use a little bit more of our brain
So true, and I love it. I understand not all gamers like to get a mental workout, but for me its no fun if I don't breakdown into tears once in a while from sheer frustration - only to be overjoyed and so proud of myself when I figure it out. There's no feeling that compares to finally working out a puzzle in Zelda after an age of head-scratching. I thought over a puzzle for almost a whole day, and then when I worked it out I couldn't get home fast enough to put it into action. ^__^ Satisfying.
Did anyone else love the mini-bosses? Not any boss in particular, but the fact that so much effort had clearly gone into their design? The mini-boss in the water temple stands out to me, and the disturbing Twilight Realm giant insect thing.
As a grumble, I wish attacking the Cuccos would do more than let me control one for a bit. Pointless, that. Amusing at first, then confusing, then very dissapointing. I want to be chased by a swarm of angry birds! Or at least some pigs.
Post by: mantidor on January 14, 2007, 12:30:45 PM
Aiming is better of course but that was painfully obvious since the remote unveiling, the remote is perfect for it, however I never felt the game to be difficult with the GC controller, maybe a little in the Stars game after I managed to do it in less than 40 seconds, breaking that record is hard with the cube's controller, and I guess it might be easier with the remote, but at that point in the game I didn't need to break the record anyway since I already got all the rewards the game could give you.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 14, 2007, 12:51:48 PM
Post by: Smoke39 on January 14, 2007, 01:05:53 PM
Post by: Shecky on January 14, 2007, 02:06:16 PM
Anyone saying that they didn't experience even one puzzle that took a while to figure out - by themselves - is lying.
There were a lot of challenges in TP when it came to puzzles. However, I can see if the overal challenge or difficulty was on the light side, as most brain puzzles don't leave your life in danger. When the final boss is taking away half hearts per hit, it's not intimidating. Sure I took me a life bar or two to figure out what to do, but execution thereafter is easy. 2D boss battles were usually really easy to figure out but took skill to execute, the exact opposite.
And water temples in Zelda are kind of always extra challenging. I remember the water temple in LoZ:LttP wasn't exactly a slouch.
Post by: mantidor on January 14, 2007, 03:36:49 PM
Seriously? I don't see anything intuitive in that, at least not more intuitive than pressing and holding a button, just compare it with aiming, or fishing, now that is trully intuitive, the other controls are just the same, you are asociating an action, whether is pushing a button or waggling the remote, with an action on screen.
Which isn't really my problem anyway, even if the response of the remote was perfect for the basic motions I would still not see anything fun in doing that, I can't do a parry or a helm splitter in real life with the remote, but I want them on the game and I find it incredibly fun to do them, when the game tries to read the motions perfectly but for such moves it has to break that rule it just makes the whole thing fall apart, it loses consistency, and sword fighting without those impossible but neat moves is just boring.
Post by: Blue Plant on January 14, 2007, 03:51:36 PM
Post by: IceCold on January 14, 2007, 03:52:04 PM
QuoteTo do a spin attack quickly under the traditional method, you needed to spin the analogue stick in a full circle, then press B. This could just be done by wiggling the attachment, which is much easier.
Seriously? I don't see anything intuitive in that, at least not more intuitive than pressing and holding a button
QuoteYou can do a parry. Remember that the context sensitive button (A) is still used the same, so if Nintendo chose to, they could have you press A for the parry. You don't need motion controls for that.
Which isn't really my problem anyway, even if the response of the remote was perfect for the basic motions I would still not see anything fun in doing that, I can't do a parry or a helm splitter in real life with the remote
Post by: Smoke39 on January 14, 2007, 03:53:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky
Anyone saying that they didn't experience even one puzzle that took a while to figure out - by themselves - is lying.
How long is "a while"?
Post by: Shecky on January 14, 2007, 04:41:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smoke39Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky
Anyone saying that they didn't experience even one puzzle that took a while to figure out - by themselves - is lying.
How long is "a while"?
> 1 - 2 mins
Gets you to stop and think. A lot of people spend way more time than they think on some of these puzzles too.
Post by: Smoke39 on January 14, 2007, 06:55:17 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 14, 2007, 08:13:42 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 15, 2007, 05:07:33 AM
Probably because of the very nature of water. One thing one often thinks of with water is water flow so they always include all sorts of water level stuff in the water dungeon to make it unique. Personally I don't mind it as much as dungeons with large sections of the floor being untouchable as you often get with any fire or sky related dungeons.
The worst though is any dungeon that requires a lot of magic or some other consumable item so you have to load up on jars of the stuff and hope that you don't run out or that you'll find the option to refill inside.
In Twilight Princess the problem is bombs since you don't get bombs from jars or cutting grass. Never start a dungeon without a near full bomb bag.
Post by: mantidor on January 15, 2007, 05:36:18 AM
Post by: Shecky on January 15, 2007, 05:52:49 AM
Personally, I would have been ok if grass didn't drop arrows either (although drops from the archers would still be fine).
Post by: Artimus on January 15, 2007, 06:51:58 AM
Post by: Klapaucius on January 15, 2007, 07:56:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky
They outright feed you bombs and arrows in dungeons that made heavy use of either.
Personally, I would have been ok if grass didn't drop arrows either (although drops from the archers would still be fine).
Indeed, not only useful but also a subtle hint at the item you'll need to solve puzzles/defeat the boss.
Arrows doesn't come from grass very often, so that's okay. It is more realistic to have no bombs from grass, after all who would leave bombs lying around in the grass? I can believe arrows might be left on rare occasions, after all Hyrule Field is teeming with arrow wielding moblins.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 15, 2007, 08:16:35 AM
But having money in every pot and clump of grass IS realistic? I think realism is flaky excuse regarding Zelda design since it seems to have a fair bit of videogame conventions that make for good game design but make no sense in the real world. Link can also take multiple hits with bladed weapons and after he dies you can just continue and he'll be alive again.
Honestly the only time it really became an issue was when I was exploring this huge cave full of ghosts that required a lot of bombing so I ran out and then discovered that I couldn't just cut grass to refill.
Post by: Caliban on January 15, 2007, 08:22:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
Am I the only one who didn't find the water temple challenging at all?
You're not alone.
Post by: KDR_11k on January 15, 2007, 08:24:46 AM
Post by: Shecky on January 15, 2007, 08:45:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: CalibanQuote
Originally posted by: Artimus
Am I the only one who didn't find the water temple challenging at all?
You're not alone.
A lot of the dungeons were challenging, and I didn't find the water temple overly challenging. It was a bit slow paced though. Partially because I didn't know how to swim fast untill I had already finished the game (and saw someone else doing it). I also like how I took the *slow* climb up the waterfall to revisit a chest only to be greeted by chump change. Entirely my option and I don't hate the dungeon because of it.
As for the bombs in grass issue. In reality, they were trying to build an economic system for the title - aka SPEND SOME MONEY. I think they blew it a bit as everything was inflated beyond controll. As for the realism of bombs as a drop, your taking the wrong approach. Bombs are a finely crafted device and have a sole source in this game. Money on the other hand is common gem to run across. By shear example you collect 10000 worth easy in the game. Makes sense that you run across tons of it
"seriously, who'd expect camera orientation to have an effect on this?" - one of those puzzles that have been used before (OoT: Gohma) and goes with my point earlier.
Post by: Smash_Brother on January 15, 2007, 09:10:23 AM
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Originally posted by: Artimus
Am I the only one who didn't find the water temple challenging at all?
Not challenging, just irritating.
Post by: IceCold on January 15, 2007, 09:31:33 AM
QuoteIf in doubt, look around..
"seriously, who'd expect camera orientation to have an effect on this?" - one of those puzzles that have been used before (OoT: Gohma) and goes with my point earlier.
Post by: mantidor on January 15, 2007, 11:34:07 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on January 15, 2007, 11:46:02 AM
What the hell is up with that? I assume it's a reference to Ocarina of Time's Castle Town but that was supposedly because of hardware limitations or a deadline or something like that. I doubt it was required for the Cube/Wii hardware and I really think it's an odd reference because everyone I've ever met didn't like that about Ocarina. If I can look around whereever I want in Majora's Mask I think I should be able to do the same thing in Twilight Princess.
Did anyone here upon encountering that for the first time think "Cool! This annoying restriction is just like in Ocarina of Time"? While we're referencing lousy Zelda stuff let's make us have to hold down the reset button to save for that old school feel.
Post by: KnowsNothing on January 15, 2007, 12:01:06 PM
Post by: Arbok on January 15, 2007, 12:13:16 PM
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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
The best song in TP, and the reason I was impressed by its soundtrack, is the song that plays when you first go to Hyrule Castle to meet Zelda. That song reminded me of Chrono Trigger music.
Not ringing a bell, I'm afraid, this game really needs a full soundtrack released for it. My personal favorite cue from the game was Gerudo Dessert. Man, I would just go there to hear the tune even if I had nothing to do. Been a standard listen on my computer for awhile now too, but then I have always been a sucker for themes with a chorus. I will agree, though, that none of the dungeon music stands out in memory, sadly.
On a semi-related note, I was ecstatic when I saw Michiru Oshima's name in the credits, as she is one of my favorite composers with her "Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla" score being a personal favorite of mine. However, seems she only did the "trailer" music. Going back and seeing that trailer again, it's quite clear that it was using a full orchestra and sounds fantastic... a real shame that none of that was used in the game itself. Hopefully that makes it onto a CD sountrack someday.
Post by: Shecky on January 15, 2007, 12:46:17 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"that you couldn't go into first person in castle town."
What the hell is up with that? I assume it's a reference to Ocarina of Time's Castle Town but that was supposedly because of hardware limitations or a deadline or something like that. I doubt it was required for the Cube/Wii hardware and I really think it's an odd reference because everyone I've ever met didn't like that about Ocarina. If I can look around whereever I want in Majora's Mask I think I should be able to do the same thing in Twilight Princess.
Did anyone here upon encountering that for the first time think "Cool! This annoying restriction is just like in Ocarina of Time"? While we're referencing lousy Zelda stuff let's make us have to hold down the reset button to save for that old school feel.
Notice how you can never see into the next "loaded" area. Just a limitation of the engine, giving you first person access in the crowded town would look really bad if you gazed at one of those boarders and saw nothing
In fact it would probably look exactly the same as when you gaze into some of the houses in K town. This is a Gamecube game remember...
Post by: KnowsNothing on January 15, 2007, 01:11:22 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 15, 2007, 02:03:10 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on January 15, 2007, 02:50:44 PM
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Originally posted by: VGrevolution
I don't miss the camera at all in Zelda: TP, the game is so well designed that camera is seldom a problem. You still get the magnificient sites even if you have to go into camera mode.
That's another thing. I felt the camera in WW was problematic. I always got some awkward angles or I couldn't find the right angle to work with. The camera is much better in TP, even if it gets stuck in some places and I get the occasional weird angles.
Post by: Bloodworth on January 15, 2007, 03:25:31 PM
Post by: Artimus on January 15, 2007, 03:45:25 PM
Post by: mantidor on January 15, 2007, 04:32:40 PM
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Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
I'm pretty sure from the South exit you can see into the Fountain Area, with people walking around and everything. The strangest part is that those are the two busiest areas of the town....
You can also see people moving before you even enter the town.
Post by: Shecky on January 15, 2007, 04:40:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mantidorQuote
Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
I'm pretty sure from the South exit you can see into the Fountain Area, with people walking around and everything. The strangest part is that those are the two busiest areas of the town....
You can also see people moving before you even enter the town.
The people aren't the biggie... as for seeing into the town, they do provide some viewing overlap between areas and the fixed camera allows them to regulate how much they show.
Basically, my point is that by having loading times between the different areas, it shows that they couldn't have *all* of the castle town loaded, thus you can't exactly free look as some areas would be blank.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 15, 2007, 06:44:44 PM
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Originally posted by: Bloodworth
OoT's camera couldn't be moved in Castle Town because it was pre-rendered. I have no idea why they did it in TP.
That is one of the few things that bothered me about TP was the fixed angle in Castle Town, it feels awkard, like it is hiding limitations (which in itself is fine but when it FEELS like something was created to avoid problems, that is something that bothers me) within the town's graphical design.
Post by: Klapaucius on January 15, 2007, 07:01:13 PM
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It sucked you couldn't zoomed any closer tooIt sucked you couldn't zoomed any closer too
Did you not find the Hawkeye? Or do you mean zooming in third person mode, in which case yeah it did suck slightly. But on thr Gamecube I have much more camera freedom so its okay.
Post by: KDR_11k on January 15, 2007, 11:44:08 PM
Considering that there's already enough slowdown with the restrictive default view I don't want to see the framerate you get when you look across the central place.
I'm pretty sure from the South exit you can see into the Fountain Area, with people walking around and everything. The strangest part is that those are the two busiest areas of the town....
At such distances you can use low res models or sprites.
Post by: Ian Sane on January 16, 2007, 04:21:21 AM
That could be avoided with clever level design. In Majora's Mask Clock Town has an archway or tunnel between each of the four areas of it. Thus the town is in full 3D and you can free look without seeing blank nothingness.
Post by: KDR_11k on January 16, 2007, 05:16:52 AM
Post by: mantidor on January 16, 2007, 06:41:07 AM
Post by: Shecky on January 16, 2007, 01:51:36 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 16, 2007, 02:43:30 PM
