Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 31, 2006, 09:13:22 PM
Interface:
-Slick and clean inteface
-Easy to use
-Needs a better way to organize channels
-VC channels for each game needs to be modified in favor a more organizational way of sorting your games
Wii Channels:
-The weather channel needs some work, at the moment it is a fun freebie but it needs more consistent updating
-Internet Channel is quite intuitive and easy to use, but it still needs some tweaking. If done correctly it could turn out to be pretty neat (please add keyboard compatibility Nintendo!)
-Mii channel needs more variety in character creation
-Some other channels would be great, and could add more incentive to owning the Wi
Online gaming:
-Well not much is known about this but I do have a few suggestions
-PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE require all online games use the Wii's address book for friend codes. It is bad enough to have friend codes, but to force you to input another set is ridiculous
-Some kind of pairing system similar to Xbox Live would be great, maybe not as complex but something to link gamers together with similar skill levels
Virtual Console (this is the biggie):
-The online store is easy to navigate but I get the feeling the current design may not be adequate later on, there has to be a search function of sorts later on
-Emulation is solid in the VC games
-Is it that hard to tell you what percentage of the game is downloaded? It is a must that Nintendo lets you see percentage downloaded, especially for larger games that will most likely be out in the future
-Pricing is fine in my opinion for the most part. More flexibility should be provided for NES games though, I'm sorry but some of those games shouldn't be priced similar to the better NES titles
-It would be great to have some enhanced versions of games. Perhaps have the "new" more expensive version of a game and the classic version which is cheaper. This could be farmed out to 3rd parties to get them more involved
-Home brew content is probaly coming but I hope Nintendo doesn't forget, like they sometimes do
-This 3-5 releases a week has to go, most of us will be long dead and gone by the time VC has most of the SNES, Genesis, TGX, N64 and NES libraries released
-Give us some games that have not been released in our region
In conclusion:
I'll admit I am impressed by Nintendo's first real attempt into the "multimedia" realm with its channel and VC system, but it still has lots of bugs to work out. As with every other online interface for consoles, it takes time to put it together, but I think Nintendo has something special if they stick with it. Hopefully it will not go the way of the GC, where Nintendo could have made great strides in putting together their online interface. In regards to Virtual Console, I think it is a must that more titles should come out on Mondays, even though I have already spent more money on VC than Xbox Arcade. Nintendo has an amazing library but they can't keep stretching it out, and PLEASE give us some revised games, preferably with an option to purchase the enhanced or the original version at different price points.
In regards to the Internet channel, I think Nintendo may have hit on something if opera can fix the bugs. The Wiimote makes for an intuitive mouse, and all we need is keyboard compatibility. I see potential in Internet Channel being a selling point for the Wii if handled properly (the resurrection of Web TV?).
I think we have to realist in regards to online play, friend codes are here to stay but I think it is imperative that you only need one friend code and that is the one on your address book. Not only that but Nintendo could benefit greatly from some sort of linking for players who choose random play, to best balance online gameplay like the XBox Live even if you can't add them as a friend.
ANYWAY, I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts. It is exciting to see what Nintendo can do with online, but they still have alot of work left. Just don't give up hope, it will take time to put together a functioning online structure, like Xbox Live before it.
Post by: UERD on January 01, 2007, 01:36:25 AM
Post by: Hocotate on January 01, 2007, 01:41:07 AM
The friend’s codes don't bother me as much as some people... It's free so I don't mind; now if I was paying a monthly fee I'd be upset. Overall I'd say Nintendo is doing a wonderful job for their first real delve into an online console (but then again I don't hold online gaming to the same high regard as some here).
Post by: MorningStar on January 01, 2007, 02:13:40 AM
I second that question about Nintendo being capable of handling MMORPG's.
Post by: Artimus on January 01, 2007, 02:40:07 AM
Post by: Mario on January 01, 2007, 02:48:20 AM
Quote
-PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE require all online games use the Wii's address book for friend codes. It is bad enough to have friend codes, but to force you to input another set is ridiculous
I have no idea how spending 20 seconds to input another number is "ridiculous"
Post by: Artimus on January 01, 2007, 04:11:23 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on January 01, 2007, 04:13:55 AM
Quote
I have no idea how spending 20 seconds to input another number is "ridiculous"
It's ridiculous because you really shouldn't have to do it. Period. There's no valid excuse for having to have multiple friend codes other than this nebulous "child-safety" thing that's been thrown around lately.
Anywho, I agree with just about everything there. Especially your points about the virtual console. My biggest fear was always that they were going treat the VC as a buffer, and they have yet to convince me that they're not going to. The virtual console can be a great asset, but only if they treat it like what it really is: a library of their old games. trying to spread the releases over the console's life isn't acceptable. Reggie saying that there's going to be a Christmas "surprise" from Nintendo and having it be SMB isn't acceptable. The very possibility that anOLD game I really want on the VC could not be released until 3-4 years from now isn't acceptable.
I said it in some other thead: I really believe that, in order for the VC to become the huge draw it can be, Nintendo's going to have to get most-if not all-of its old content uploaded by Q3 2007, and really focus on new online content for Christmas '07. That way they have both the gamers and non-gamers covered with what will be a more complete service.
Post by: SixthAngel on January 01, 2007, 04:28:31 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on January 01, 2007, 06:54:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
I have no idea how spending 20 seconds to input another number is "ridiculous"
...except that you have to do it for every other person you intend to play that game with.
Post by: Plugabugz on January 01, 2007, 07:41:01 AM
Post by: Artimus on January 01, 2007, 09:11:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Plugabugz
The parental controls should be able to extend to online features. For example, if a console has the controls deactivated, a person regardless of their age, shouldn't be able to play against a minor without the unlock password.
This, to me, has always been the dead obvious solution. You have a fully functioning online system where you can chat with people and add them to your address book and everything you want. But you can turn off all those 'dangerous' things with parental controls and then just play against people already in your book or random opponents you can't talk to. Best of both worlds. If the parents don't turn it on then that's their own doing.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 01, 2007, 10:25:35 AM
Post by: Kairon on January 01, 2007, 01:16:25 PM
I think Nintendo needs a proof of concept game for it's online. If you want online play the clear choice is XBox Live. Nintendo needs to offer something different and new. They SHOULD NOT beat MS at their own game, they DO NOT need an FPS. What they need... is Animal Crossing!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Artimus on January 01, 2007, 02:04:14 PM
Post by: IceCold on January 01, 2007, 04:29:44 PM
QuoteWell, RAB brought this up, and I am wondering about this too. What if there are multiple users on one Wii, and all of them want different profiles? Then the single address book code won't be enough.
I think we have to realist in regards to online play, friend codes are here to stay but I think it is imperative that you only need one friend code and that is the one on your address book.
Post by: Pittbboi on January 01, 2007, 06:13:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
The whole Pictochat fiasco shows exactly why Nintendo should be using friend codes..QuoteWell, RAB brought this up, and I am wondering about this too. What if there are multiple users on one Wii, and all of them want different profiles? Then the single address book code won't be enough.
I think we have to realist in regards to online play, friend codes are here to stay but I think it is imperative that you only need one friend code and that is the one on your address book.
I don't think there would be a huge problem with having several accounts under one friend code. The friend code is only tied to the Wii you own; not the person. Thus you could easily introduce a log-in system that allows several accounts under one Wii friend code.
Post by: Kairon on January 01, 2007, 10:13:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
MMOAnimalCrossing has been needed badly for a long time. The lack of that is why I never bought Wild World. Imagine thriving cities and such for you to putt around in. That would, I agree, be a killer app.
ARGH! I DID NOT SAY MMO!
MMO Animal Crossing will basically turn into a big 'ol Sims Online. PRIVATE PERSONALIZED SPACES are what gives AC its charm, and its ability to drive us to acquire new furniture. Animal Crossing should be just as MMO as PSO is.
ARGH! MMOs ARE NOT GOD'S GIFT TO VIDEOGAMES! IF YOU'RE NOT WOW, THEN YOU HAVE A 150k user base! THAT IS NOWHERE NEAR KILLER APP FOR CONSOLE!!! KAIRON SMASH
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: couchmonkey on January 02, 2007, 03:10:29 AM
Personally any inconveniences with Nintendo's online are cancelled for me by the fact that it's free.
I agree that VC organization both in-store and on the channels could probably use some improvement. I have a suspicion Nintendo is going to expect us to delete games we don't want anymore to download new ones. (With the old ones still being downloadable for free). It works, but it's not really the best. There should just be one channel to store all VC games, and you could optionally put them as individual channels if you want.
Post by: NeoThunder on February 11, 2007, 04:50:31 PM
If the whole idea of friend codes is to keep preditors away from kids. Then I want to know is, when did preditors start stalking kids on online console gaming. I've never heard of a case where a kid was suduced while playing halo2 on xbox live. I mean really, lets face it. When your online playing you can't really talk private stuff that you don't want your parents to hear. From the preditors point of view it's not the easiest way to meet and suduce kids cause it's so easy to get caught....just one call to microsoft, they have the credit card #, address, and a lot more information that is easier to hide when your chatting online.
OK, so again I ask, is there really a risk of exposing kids to preditors on a gaming console online? Maybe you'll run into some jerks, and a system to avoid or turn them off should always be in play, but in my opinion. I really don't think this is a serious worry.
Post by: denjet78 on February 11, 2007, 06:29:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: NeoThunder
Ok...this is what i wana know.
If the whole idea of friend codes is to keep preditors away from kids. Then I want to know is, when did preditors start stalking kids on online console gaming. I've never heard of a case where a kid was suduced while playing halo2 on xbox live. I mean really, lets face it. When your online playing you can't really talk private stuff that you don't want your parents to hear. From the preditors point of view it's not the easiest way to meet and suduce kids cause it's so easy to get caught....just one call to microsoft, they have the credit card #, address, and a lot more information that is easier to hide when your chatting online.
OK, so again I ask, is there really a risk of exposing kids to preditors on a gaming console online? Maybe you'll run into some jerks, and a system to avoid or turn them off should always be in play, but in my opinion. I really don't think this is a serious worry.
Actually, there are cases. Someone posted a link in another topic. I'll see if I can dig it up.
EDIT: Here's a couple quick links to one case that made the papers. It's like roaches though. You see one and there's probably at least a hundred in the walls that you don't.
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/05/151223
http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/171996.html
If there's any possible way that a predator can get in contact with a child without their parents knowing about it someone is going to be there ready and waiting to take advantage of it. Friend Codes aren't fool proof either, but it's an extra layer of protection that does make it somewhat more difficult.
Besides, Friend Codes are also for the non-gamer and people intimidated by online. They streamline the entire process. You want to play with your friend, you trade codes, enter them into your games, and away you go. No searching, no random matching (unless you want that as Nintendo has offered that feature before), and no having to deal with morons who wander the net just looking for people to piss off. You can basically create your own little gated online community. Right now, I think that would make a lot of people feel safer about the whole thing. Remember, the media has played up the internet as this horrible place where everyone is out to steal your identity and molest/murder you and your family. Live isn't helping that image. It's so hardcore that it makes online feel unreachable, and unsafe, for most gamers.
Nintendo's just trying to create a stress free environment for new and lapsed gamers. Would a more feature rich network be preferable for existing ones? I don't know since I don't even play games online. Most of them just suck. But I can understand why some would want them. Nintendo will probably slowly add features as it's network evolves. As for right now though I think just making people feel comfortable is the most important thing.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 11, 2007, 06:44:15 PM
Quote
If there's any possible way that a predator can get in contact with a child without their parents knowing about it someone is going to be there ready and waiting to take advantage of it. Friend Codes aren't fool proof either, but it's an extra layer of protection that does make it somewhat more difficult.
But see, this is just a risk that is going to be taken when dealing with anything that involves the internet. I don't see why Nintendo is taking such outlandish precautions. Gamers who want to play online with the world will go around friend codes to do so. How many websites out there are providing means to trade friend codes with people you don't know? The risk is still there, and it always will be (and there's not much of a risk, anyway. The number of cases of predictors stalking children via video games is drastically lower than on other chat functions on the internet). The friend code system right now is more of an annoyance than an actual safety precaution. As an actual safety precaution it's just too flawed.
Quote
Besides, Friend Codes are also for the non-gamer and people intimidated by online. They streamline the entire process. You want to play with your friend, you trade codes, enter them into your games, and away you go.
Your logic here is flawed. You imply that without friend codes, it wouldn't be easy to play online with friends, and that's just not true. With Xbox Live and even PS3, it's actually a lot easier to connect with your friends, because you don't have to worry about entering in each other's friend codes. And you can connect with people around the world just as easily through the provided system. Whereas with Nintendo's friend code system, if you want to connect with people you don't know, you have to deal with the hassle of outside means provided by various websites. Add to this the fact that it still hasn't been confirmed that you won't have to enter friend codes on a per-game basis, and that could possibly mean needing several codes per person for every game you want to play with them. I fail to see how that's easier in any sense. The friend code system isn't streamlining the process, it's just making it harder to connect with the world at large.
At the end of the day, Nintendo's going to have to choose between having a "comfortable" service, or one that would actually be supported.
Post by: denjet78 on February 11, 2007, 06:56:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
If there's any possible way that a predator can get in contact with a child without their parents knowing about it someone is going to be there ready and waiting to take advantage of it. Friend Codes aren't fool proof either, but it's an extra layer of protection that does make it somewhat more difficult.
But see, this is just a risk that is going to be taken when dealing with anything that involves the internet. I don't see why Nintendo taking such outlandish precautions. Gamers who want to play online with the world will go around friend codes to do so. How many websites out there are providing means to trade friend codes with people you don't know? The risk is still there, and it always will be (and there's not much of a risk, anyway. The number of cases of predictors stalking children via video games is drastically lower than on other chat functions on the internet). The friend code system right now is more of an annoyance than an actual safety precaution. As an actual safety precaution it's just too flawed.
You're looking at this from the perspective of a gamer who already knows a lot about gaming. You'd probably fall well into the lines of what is considered a hardcore gamer. You automatically assume that others already know what you know. Problem is, they don't. True there is risk in everything but the gamers Nintendo is going after aren't the ones that frequent sites like this. Most likely they'll never post their friend codes online here or on any other site. The desire and the reason simply won't be there. They'll trade with a few of their friends and be happy with that. And if a friend introduces them to someone else, they might add them. Point being, they're going to feel comfortable knowing that they can control exactly who they're playing with at all times, and the fact that they can keep everyone else out.
QuoteQuote
Besides, Friend Codes are also for the non-gamer and people intimidated by online. They streamline the entire process. You want to play with your friend, you trade codes, enter them into your games, and away you go.
Your logic here is flawed. You imply that without friend codes, it wouldn't be easy to play online with friends, and that's just not true. With Xbox Live and even PS3, it's actually a lot easier to connect with your friends, because you don't have to worry about entering in each other's friend codes, and you can connect with stranger through the provided system. Whereas with Nintendo's friend code system, if you want to connect with people you don't know, you have to deal with the hassle of outside means provided by various websites. The friend code system isn't streamlining the process, it's just making it harder to connect with the world at large.
At the end of the day, Nintendo's going to have to choose between having a "comfortable" service, or one that would actually be supported.
But it is simple to gamers who don't use the internet much. A number that they can trade with their friend to play with online makes a lot more sense than going online and having to search for them, and dealing with all the other extraneous features and information. Live is intimidating. Nintendo's system is clean and simple. I'm not saying it's easier for hardcore gamers to use. It just that it makes more sense to people who aren't net savvy. A little inconvenience for you now may be a boon to Nintendo later. And if comfort brings in the gamers, it will be supported.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 11, 2007, 07:14:58 PM
Quote
You'd probably fall well into the lines of what is considered a hardcore gamer. You automatically assume that others already know what you know. Problem is, they don't.
Trust me, I am far from a hardcore gamer. The first (and last) online game I've ever played was Starcraft, and that was about 5 years ago. I don't own a 360. I just know computer basics. My main contention with friend codes is that, in an effort to cater to a demographic that has for the most part avoided online console gaming like the plague, it's becoming more and more obvious that the gamers who enjoy online gaming and would be most receptive to it are getting the short end of the stick.
Quote
But it is simple to gamers who don't use the internet much. A number that they can trade with their friend to play with online makes a lot more sense than going online and having to search for them, and dealing with all the other extraneous features and information.
I still fail to see how it would be easier and more comfortable to remember a double digit friend code for possibly each game per person than it would be to remember an account name that would apply for every game. The key to making a service that appeals to all people isn't limiting the options for the know-how group in order to appeal to the inexperienced; the key is providing an interface that appears simple and intuitive for those who don't know what they're doing, while still providing the "advanced" options for the people who know what they're doing and won't invite iMnOtAraPIst69 over for a game of hide the flesh puppet.
The online gaming realm has been, is now, and will continue for a long time to be gamer territory. Nintendo shouldn't short change themselves just to make the service more appealing to people who most likely won't play any game more sophisticated than Literati on yahoo! games online.
Post by: denjet78 on February 11, 2007, 08:42:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Trust me, I am far from a hardcore gamer. The first (and last) online game I've ever played was Starcraft, and that was about 5 years ago. I don't own a 360. I just know computer basics. My main contention with friend codes is that, in an effort to cater to a demographic that has for the most part avoided online console gaming like the plague, it's becoming more and more obvious that the gamers who enjoy online gaming and would be most receptive to it are getting the short end of the stick.
I don't feel online gamers are getting the short end of the stick at all. Isn't the point of online gaming to play games online? Trading friend codes may seem a bit harsh and controlling to those in the know but you yourself have already shown that there are ways around the system. You can simply go on message boards and swap codes there. How do friend codes hinder online play? You say it's more complex, but not for the market Nintendo is after. DS online seems complex, but it's online numbers DWARF Live. Why is that? 1. It's free but also 2. It's accessible. People understand it. Again, you just enter a number and boom, you're playing. That concept isn't hard to grasp at all.
Quote
The online gaming realm has been, is now, and will continue for a long time to be gamer territory. Nintendo shouldn't short change themselves just to make the service more appealing to people who most likely won't play any game more sophisticated than Literati on yahoo! games online.
And why exactly shouldn't Nintendo try to change that? Why can't online gaming be for everyone? What you're basically saying is that online is hardcore, and always will be. That's a sad perspective. Live is not fit for new online users. It is EXTREMELY hardcore. Sony's network will most likely follow suit as well. Unless someone caters to the rest of the market, online will never grow. I don't necessarily agree with Nintendo cutting out all features with their network but I can understand why they're doing it. Besides, what's to stop 3rd parties from developing their own advanced features for their games? Nintendo has already shown that even the DS can handle most online features, including VoIP. Nintendo isn't going to stop them from doing what they want. The only "problem" anyone seems able to come up with are the friend codes. The only problem I see is that you're never going to see your grandmother on Live. You could very well see her on Nintendo's network playing Wii Sports 2 Bowling with her grandchildren on the other side of the country though.
Post by: Ceric on February 12, 2007, 02:40:13 AM
Post by: NeoThunder on February 12, 2007, 07:49:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Look in the end if I can go and randomly face people thats great. If all I have to do is trade my Wii Console Number once with a friend to play any game we both own. Thats great. If I have to trade a Friend Code for every game with my friend thats not great.
And if I have a game thats online and can only be played with people you know on your friends list, and you have nobody on your friends list...........wait, THAT SUCKS!!!!!
Ohh, and I guess the point I was trying to say at the top was that online preditors don't use "Just" an online gaming console to get to their victims, the story at the top says they exchanged information over the computer via chatting and e-mail. Sure the xbox live was the gateway, but I think the computer was the enabler that allowed it to go as far as it did.
Post by: denjet78 on February 12, 2007, 08:38:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: NeoThunder
And if I have a game thats online and can only be played with people you know on your friends list, and you have nobody on your friends list...........wait, THAT SUCKS!!!!!
Who says you won't be able to randomly match? Nintendo's offered that on most (all?) of their online games on the DS. Why would you think it would be an issue to do on the Wii?
Quote
Ohh, and I guess the point I was trying to say at the top was that online preditors don't use "Just" an online gaming console to get to their victims, the story at the top says they exchanged information over the computer via chatting and e-mail. Sure the xbox live was the gateway, but I think the computer was the enabler that allowed it to go as far as it did.
They very well could though. If you can IM or voice chat, send pictures, video. Who's to say that even if a computer wasn't in the picture that the situation wouldn't have gone as it did? It is easier on a PC true. There are less barriers. Those barriers are dwindling on consoles though. You're basically saying that the PC was REQUIRED for the situation to have developed as it did and that's patently wrong.
Post by: denjet78 on February 12, 2007, 09:09:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: NeoThunder
And if I have a game thats online and can only be played with people you know on your friends list, and you have nobody on your friends list...........wait, THAT SUCKS!!!!!
Who says you won't be able to randomly match? Nintendo's offered that on most (all?) of their online games on the DS. Why would you think it would be an issue to do on the Wii?
Quote
Ohh, and I guess the point I was trying to say at the top was that online preditors don't use "Just" an online gaming console to get to their victims, the story at the top says they exchanged information over the computer via chatting and e-mail. Sure the xbox live was the gateway, but I think the computer was the enabler that allowed it to go as far as it did.
They very well could though. If you can IM or voice chat, send pictures, video. Who's to say that even if a computer wasn't in the picture that the situation wouldn't have gone as it did? It is easier on a PC true. There are less barriers. Those barriers are dwindling on consoles though. You're basically saying that the PC was REQUIRED for the situation to have developed as it did and that's patently wrong.
EDIT: I also forgot to mention the whole "scare" (media overblow) surrounding Pictochat. They were as much TELLING parents that Nintendo had designed a product for molesters to get to their children. That's not entirely true but considering the open nature of the program it is a possibility. HIGHLY unlikely considering it's only local wireless, but still possible.
EDIT 2: Stupid "Quote" button...
Post by: Pittbboi on February 12, 2007, 09:58:45 AM
Quote
I don't feel online gamers are getting the short end of the stick at all. Isn't the point of online gaming to play games online? Trading friend codes may seem a bit harsh and controlling to those in the know but you yourself have already shown that there are ways around the system. You can simply go on message boards and swap codes there. How do friend codes hinder online play? You say it's more complex, but not for the market Nintendo is after. DS online seems complex, but it's online numbers DWARF Live. Why is that? 1. It's free but also 2. It's accessible. People understand it. Again, you just enter a number and boom, you're playing. That concept isn't hard to grasp at all.
Yes but you shouldn't HAVE to go around the system to play others if you're a gamer and don't know people with Wii's around. That is a basic feature that has been an online gaming staple on PCs for years and the Xbox almost just as long. There's nothing wrong with making it simple for non-gamers, but Nintendo isn't making it simple, they're making it harder. Proof is in the fact that with ANY other online system ever, you could do anything that you could do with friend codes and much more. When I was a newbie to gaming and went online with Starcraft for the first time, I didn't know what I was doing, but the experience was so simple all I had to do was click a few times and I was online playing with my friends AND strangers. Nintendo's idea of making it "simpler" is just cutting out features, not making them more intuitive.
Quote
And why exactly shouldn't Nintendo try to change that? Why can't online gaming be for everyone? What you're basically saying is that online is hardcore, and always will be. That's a sad perspective. Live is not fit for new online users. It is EXTREMELY hardcore.
I'm not saying online gaming will always be hardcore, but I AM saying that it's mostly GAMERS that have made up the base of online PC and console gaming for the last decade. You can't deny that, and neither can Nintendo. Nintendo can try to make its online service appeal more to non-gamers by introducing their own games, but in the process of trying to appease a rogue market, they shouldn't cut out the PROVEN demographic, which is what they're doing. Nintendo can do whatever they want in order to get my grandmother playing online, but in doing so they shouldn't make it harder and/or impossible for me to enjoy a good online experience.
Quote
Besides, what's to stop 3rd parties from developing their own advanced features for their games? Nintendo has already shown that even the DS can handle most online features, including VoIP. Nintendo isn't going to stop them from doing what they want. The only "problem" anyone seems able to come up with are the friend codes.
Well, it seems to me developers are still having trouble doing what they want to do. Mr. Boon said Mortal Kombat isn't going online for the Wii because the structure and support just isn't there, and Square-Enix has said that they aren't bringing games like FFXI to the Wii because friend codes make MMOs impossible and are even in talks with Nintendo to change that. This is more than an indication that Nintendo is hampering developers with this system. This isn't the SNES days, Nintendo just can't lay out a lackluster service and expect 3rd parties to make the most of it. No, Nintendo is the underdog, and if they want people to support them they're going to have to lick serious boot. Laying out a bare bones and extremely limiting structure and telling 3rd parties to suck it up won't work, because developers just won't do it (And that has so far been the case on the Wii). You may say the only thing people complain about is friend codes and that may be true, but the friend codes alone gives developers and fans MORE than enough to complain about and, if Nintendo is STILL being so bullheaded about it when they know friend codes are universaly despised, well then that's a good indication of how much "support" Nintendo's giving third parties behind the scenes.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 10:58:07 AM
After all, even huge organizations can only have so much managerial focus. Nintendo's expended loads of effort on so many things this launch: low cost, high manufacturing, reaching out to non-gamers, re-publishing and emulating games from 5 (maybe more?) older, ancient game systems, reaching out to third party publishers, and most insanely difficult of all: a brand new control paradigm and the games and game philosophy to go with it. Is it any surprise that Nintendo wasn't able to fully catch up to expectations with its online network? (especially considering that such a field is quite a ways out of their core competency?)
I believe that Nintendo deserves all the criticism it's receiving for having a less robust system at the moment. But I also believe that this criticism should have in view the idea that Nintendo had other, more important, more blue ocean priorities it had to take care of first.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ian Sane on February 12, 2007, 11:11:01 AM
If Nintendo has a better track record in the last ten years I would buy the idea of odd things they do being intentional and part of a greater plan. But often when Nintendo has done something odd it has been a major goof on their part. If those screw-ups were intentionally part of a plan then that plan sucked. History suggests that anything Nintendo does that seems like a goof-up 90% of the time is.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 11:13:49 AM
The only period that doesn't fit into this "plan sucked" idea was the transitional period of the GC, which can't really be accepted as evidence because Yamauchi was on the way out and Iwata was on the way in, and Iwata was an outsider to Nintendo's corporate structure at that point as well.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NeoThunder on February 12, 2007, 11:15:38 AM
I have no problem what so ever with parents policeing their kids, I DO have a problem with Nintendo policeing me, why can't society wake up and parents take responsibility for parenting, IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THEIR TITLE....PARENTING!!!!
If Parents became involved more in their kids lives and payed more attention to them, I think these cases would drastically decline.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 11:18:06 AM
IF
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 12, 2007, 11:29:15 AM
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Am I the only person here who see's this in a big picture where Nintendo made a conscious decision to focus its efforts on other things first and robust online gameplay second?
But see, that's just self-centered thinking on Nintendo's part. I would be more understanding of Nintendo being focused on other avenues if their efforts (or lack thereof) weren't making it difficult for third parties to do their own thing with online. But everything we know is pointing to that not being the case. Nintendo not placing importance on online is making it more difficult for developers, this is evident in the fact that we STILL have friend codes and developers JUST starting getting online dev kits about a week ago. Nintendo doesn't have to focus on online, I'm more concerned about how third parties approach the service (since Nintendo games aren't exactly known for stellar online play anyway), which is why it bothers me that Nintendo's being so bullheaded about it. It's as if they think that just because online may not be a main focus for their games right now, that 3rd parties can just suck it up and wait.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 11:35:10 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 12, 2007, 11:43:44 AM
I agree that Nintendo had to work miracles this gen. I'm just nervous about when we're going to stop making excuses for them. They're doing so much, according to you, but nothing feels complete. The wiimote still isn't proven, there are still no big games on the system outside of Zelda; third party support is still fickle at best, and people still can't find Wiis. The excuses are starting to become jokes. It's time for Nintendo to pony up, and they can start by obliterating friend codes. Even if all they did was announce that they intend to do away with friend codes, or that they're developing a new online system that is more third party friendly I would be willing to cut them some slack. But so far, outside of the wii remote straps, Nintendo's not admitting that they did anything wrong or that they're behind on anything. Heck, Perrin even had the nerve to say that Nintendo's purposefully rolling out features at a snail's pace so that we can all "get it". Right, like the news and weather are features so intense they would overload the mind if introduced at the same time.
Nintendo, we're happy with most of what you done so far, just admit that you have to make some adjustments! You would quiet so many of your naysayers if you just did that much.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 11:53:17 AM
I think that Friendcodes, in one form or another, are here to stay. What SHOULD be done though is to eliminate the double-lock-mechanism to them: both people shouldn't need to independently enter the other person's friend code in order to get on their lists. It should be a one-lock mechanism with an opt-in (and perma-ban-ignore-opt-out) option for the recipient.
i.e. Friendcodes should work more like cellphones that remember all the calls made to them (and can thus block certain numbers effectively).
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 12, 2007, 12:02:39 PM
But there was an interesting point that I didn't think about at all until Square-Enix brought it up: friend codes make certain online games literally impossible--most notably the MMO. In games where you connect to servers and NEED to interact with strangers, I don't see friend codes working in any way shape or form.
Any ideas?
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2007, 12:10:56 PM
I personally want to see Nintendo make a centralized server infrastructure that internally could support games in a B.Net (StarCraft, WarCraft III) multiplayer style, or a PSO style at most. I don't see much success in the MMO market since PC's are perfectly made for those experiences and because WoW dominates casual and non-gamer MMO players so hard right now. I think that limited multiplayer, community-centered experiences such as Animal Crossing, Spore, and cooperative action/adventure titles like PSO are much more desirable, profitable, AND achievable.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: denjet78 on February 12, 2007, 12:16:17 PM
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Yes but you shouldn't HAVE to go around the system to play others if you're a gamer and don't know people with Wii's around. That is a basic feature that has been an online gaming staple on PCs for years and the Xbox almost just as long. There's nothing wrong with making it simple for non-gamers, but Nintendo isn't making it simple, they're making it harder. Proof is in the fact that with ANY other online system ever, you could do anything that you could do with friend codes and much more. When I was a newbie to gaming and went online with Starcraft for the first time, I didn't know what I was doing, but the experience was so simple all I had to do was click a few times and I was online playing with my friends AND strangers. Nintendo's idea of making it "simpler" is just cutting out features, not making them more intuitive.
It is more intuitive and simple for non-gamers. You just can't see it from their perspective. I can see it because I want simple, I want clean, I want easy. I sure as HELL don't want Live. That mess can stay with MS for all I care. Sony can follow their suit as well. They're taking online down the road of inaccessibility. I play games all the time and I find it inaccessible. The entire experience is just plain horrible. And beyond that I don't like the direction online has been taking as it is. I don't just want to play multiplayer online. I want new types of experiences. MS is on their 2nd generation with Live and I see nothing new, nothing interesting. I see hardcore online only. Obviously the status quo isn't working.
My sister would be close to what would be considered a non-gamer. She doesn't play very much. I can get her to play Zelda and a few other games but she just isn't into the whole thing. And she certainly would NEVER think of playing online. One of the reasons is she thinks it's too complicated because it IS. Funny how that works, yah know? But, she completely understands Nintendo's friend code system. Again, it seems complicated to YOU. You're market is a gimmie though so why should Nintendo continue to cater solely to you when there's a much larger untapped market out there? The only way they're going to reach that market is to make things simple and accessible to it. I know it seems counterintuitive to you but it's really not.
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I'm not saying online gaming will always be hardcore, but I AM saying that it's mostly GAMERS that have made up the base of online PC and console gaming for the last decade. You can't deny that, and neither can Nintendo. Nintendo can try to make its online service appeal more to non-gamers by introducing their own games, but in the process of trying to appease a rogue market, they shouldn't cut out the PROVEN demographic, which is what they're doing. Nintendo can do whatever they want in order to get my grandmother playing online, but in doing so they shouldn't make it harder and/or impossible for me to enjoy a good online experience.
The proven demographic will play online no matter what. Sure they're making it a little more difficult (A LITTLE) for you because you're reasoning and understanding is greater than the norm. Should the internet have never been brought to the masses in the first place? Should it have been left the playgound of those willing and able to learn it's complicated secrets? You wouldn't even be here arguing with me if someone hadn't simplified the entire situation to where the average person could grasp it. And in simplifying it they cut out features because those features were, quite simply, unneeded by the masses and in fact only served to confuse them. Again, I don't necessarily agree with cutting all features but there certainly is a lot that is unnecessary just to play games online.
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Well, it seems to me developers are still having trouble doing what they want to do. Mr. Boon said Mortal Kombat isn't going online for the Wii because the structure and support just isn't there, and Square-Enix has said that they aren't bringing games like FFXI to the Wii because friend codes make MMOs impossible and are even in talks with Nintendo to change that. This is more than an indication that Nintendo is hampering developers with this system. This isn't the SNES days, Nintendo just can't lay out a lackluster service and expect 3rd parties to make the most of it. No, Nintendo is the underdog, and if they want people to support them they're going to have to lick serious boot. Laying out a bare bones and extremely limiting structure and telling 3rd parties to suck it up won't work, because developers just won't do it (And that has so far been the case on the Wii). You may say the only thing people complain about is friend codes and that may be true, but the friend codes alone gives developers and fans MORE than enough to complain about and, if Nintendo is STILL being so bullheaded about it when they know friend codes are universaly despised, well then that's a good indication of how much "support" Nintendo's giving third parties behind the scenes.
If you want to argue support, that is one thing. I don't know the situation surrounding MK but it would be easy enough to get a game like that online. 3rd parties are inherently lazy though. They probably want Nintendo to code the entire online part of the game for them. As for FFXI, MMOs are the only type of game that friend codes hamper but considering their limited success mixed with how difficult they are to maintain it's not hard to understand why Nintendo didn't necessarily take them into consideration. Still, the system should be able to support any and all online games. That situation will have to be worked out. Hopefully without sacrificing the simplicity of the system though.
As for gamers complaints... Give me a break! Nintendo can't seem to do anything without everyone jumping on their ass about it. Wind Waker's celshaded. HOW DAREZ THEY MAKE CELDA KIDDIZ! They reveal the Wii controller. Almost UNIVERAL hatred. I remember. I was here the day it was first shown. The only thing that proves is that gamers will bitch about anything, with or without justification. And just because they bitch that doesn't make them right. In fact, usually they're completely wrong. You can despise friend codes all you want, no one's going to stop you. But you're so blinded by your hate that you refuse to see the good that they're doing. That's your prerogative though.
Post by: Donutt007 on February 14, 2007, 11:40:31 AM
I thought I had a good idea, but proved myself wrong as I was thinking about writing it...nevermind...carry on
Post by: WesDawg on February 15, 2007, 04:07:55 AM
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Your logic here is flawed. You imply that without friend codes, it wouldn't be easy to play online with friends, and that's just not true. With Xbox Live and even PS3, it's actually a lot easier to connect with your friends, because you don't have to worry about entering in each other's friend codes. And you can connect with people around the world just as easily through the provided system. Whereas with Nintendo's friend code system, if you want to connect with people you don't know, you have to deal with the hassle of outside means provided by various websites. Add to this the fact that it still hasn't been confirmed that you won't have to enter friend codes on a per-game basis, and that could possibly mean needing several codes per person for every game you want to play with them. I fail to see how that's easier in any sense. The friend code system isn't streamlining the process, it's just making it harder to connect with the world at large.
At the end of the day, Nintendo's going to have to choose between having a "comfortable" service, or one that would actually be supported.
Wait a second. I haven't played online DS much, but from what I remember hooking up with strangers in MK
S involved hitting a single button in the game. Hooking up with friends involved entering their codes. The implementation was flawed in that you couldn't add players who you had raced online with, but it wasn't so bad as not allowing you to play ANYONE until you entered their friend code. Random matching was easy. Connecting with friends required some extra work.With the Wii, I'm really hoping that the system address book is used too. The DS was designed to be carried around with you. Friend codes could be exchanged by meeting someone in person. The Wii doesn't work that way, and so I'm hoping Nintendo realizes that something needs to change. I'm hoping, but I'm not overly optimistic about it. If it does go the DS way, odds are I won't play online with friends very often. That's all there really is to it. I may play in some random matches. Random matching is fairly fun anyway, but I probably won't deal with the friends thing at all.
