When I read "control issues", I thought that the game had SEVERE problems, like the Wiimote not responding well enough. Turns out these issues are that "you can't control the characters in Tennis".
Uuuuuuuuuhhhh...and this is an issue, how?
I thought this was the idea behind Wii Tennis, make a simplified version of Tennis so that everyone can easily get into it. Maybe hardcore gamers wouldn't have problems controlling the characters AND the tennis racket, but for children, casual and non gamers, which is the audience Nintendo is aiming at with Wii sports, it could become an issue. While I admit I haven't played the game myself, I don't see not being able to control your character a "control issue" dampens the game. Maybe some hardcore gamers will bitch about it, but it should be fine with everyone else.
This is definitely bitching for the sake of bitching.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Caterkiller on October 31, 2006, 07:13:26 AM
One point Matt braught up that I thought was valid was the baseball throwing gesture. Something about cheating by ust flicking the wrist instead of actualy making a throwing motion. But then again, I think thats a good point of the game, you can relax with it and make super minimal movements, or get up and go crazy with it. And something about purpously trying to throw a slow ball and it just wasn't working at all looks like a problem.
Other than that, who cares? we are getting it no matter what, we will play it for ourselves, and even if we hate it, we are going to show it off to nongamers like crazy.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: EasyCure on October 31, 2006, 07:13:58 AM
i read matts blog too. the other complaint was that players could "cheat" by not making full gestures and instead play by making quick flicks of the wrist. these are the same type of people that thought the idea of making full blown gestures to control a game was ridiculous. nintendo has even gone on saying that yes, you could play with minimal effort but doing the full motion gestures are just more fun.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: couchmonkey on October 31, 2006, 07:18:26 AM
Actually I bet Matt's complaints are spot-on...for a gamer sitting in a room playing Wii Sports alone for "several hours". The game wasn't built for epic, 20-hour marathons, it was built for kicking back for 20 minutes or partying and showing off the Wii controller. I have to agree that the d-pad pitching thing in baseball is a little "off", but seeing as you can't hold the controller like a real ball I don't think it's a big deal.
Anyway, a number of hardcore gamers are going to be disappointed by this game because it wasn't designed for the type of play we enjoy. That said, it was designed to knock the socks off of people who don't play a lot of games, and the Wii Experience videos prove that it works. Hardcore sports gamers will be better served by Madden, and I think Matt's opinions will mirror that exactly.
Edit: "Hardcore" should really appear as Intellitxt.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 31, 2006, 07:20:27 AM
Actually, now that I think about it, having the option of doing small gestures in games is a good one.
See, my room, while large enough, is still somewhat small to accommodate the Wii and give me good space to go crazy with games. My bed is right in front of my TV and the space between them is very small, not giving me room to move the controller around.
Having the option to do small gestures is good for people like me.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: ShyGuy on October 31, 2006, 07:26:10 AM
I could cheat at Duckhunt by getting real close to the TV or by turning the brightness up on my television.
DUCKHUNT = PHAIL, NES = FLOP
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: MaryJane on October 31, 2006, 07:31:09 AM
I read this and thought, What is he an idiot?
this is a demo, why would they dedicate the same resources to this as to say Zelda? Or even excite truck?
I don't think he's ever played tennis in real life either, I personally suck, but my gf play and always wants to play me because (this is what i think anyway) she's glad to have something she can beat me in. anyway, point of the story, one of the things i only recently found out, is that if you swing left and the ball goes right, is because of how close the ball is to you, and where you made contact on the racket.
as for the baseball thing, i'm sure that once a dedicated MLB games comes out, they will include such features as actually making the curveball motion to throw one. although good pitchers throw a curve ball just like their fastball to fool batters. so again, not a real gripe with me.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Ceric on October 31, 2006, 07:49:18 AM
I would like to say in regards to the Tennis movement he did clearly say that since you were just focusing on one thing that the one thing should be close to perfect as possible. He had some problems with the swings not turning out right. Yes these are "Demos." Nintendo is using them as a Flagship for there console, this will be on the Wiiosks I guarantee. As a fan I would like them to be as good as possible because this is what the non-adopters will play. When I talk with a MS or PS fan this will probably be the thing they played because it will more then likely be the Wiiosks game.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Ian Sane on October 31, 2006, 07:56:42 AM
"we are getting it no matter what, we will play it for ourselves, and even if we hate it, we are going to show it off to nongamers like crazy."
Why would you show off something you hated? I wouldn't want something I disliked to be popular with people I know. I only want to encourage people to get interested in games I like so that I can play those with them.
Wii Tennis' issues have nothing to do with controls but rather game design. The fact that you don't even move and just swing the racket is entirely a game design decision. I think the game is going backwards to the point where even Tennis on the NES has more depth. Hell Pong probably requires more skill to play. But that isn't a control issue. Now there is some noticable lag for WiiSports in some videos. That would be a control issue.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Caterkiller on October 31, 2006, 08:12:40 AM
Well Ian, my thinking is that, some of us(probably not me) will not fully enjoy Wii sports, because of the lack of depth. We are all fairly hard core after all, but at the same time, im sure almost every one of use will use it to reel in someone uneasy with games anyway. Though I wouldn't tell people "I hate it because its so simple and lacks depth, here its great for someone likfe you." That might be a little offensive to some.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Artimus on October 31, 2006, 08:14:55 AM
I suspect most of his comments will be well founded. But his perspective is that of a real gamer, so perhaps it's irrelevant (as are our opinions). He still says its fun, make no mistake there.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: trip1eX on October 31, 2006, 08:28:59 AM
He doesn't mention the spin you can put on the ball in tennis. Either slice or topspin. or that you can lob. or the fact that you can do backhands or forehands. (afaik you don't have control of that in other tennis games.) I think the guy is expecting a miracle or something. LIke you're playing virtual reality suddenly.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: King of Twitch on October 31, 2006, 09:00:32 AM
Yet another October Surprise scandal. I thought we knew a long time ago wii sports was a nongame.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2006, 09:44:54 AM
Quote Originally posted by: trip1eX He doesn't mention the spin you can put on the ball in tennis. Either slice or topspin. or that you can lob. or the fact that you can do backhands or forehands. (afaik you don't have control of that in other tennis games.) I think the guy is expecting a miracle or something. LIke you're playing virtual reality suddenly.
Yeah, for the most part Matt's comments are pretty ridiculous.
AND purely subjective. Bowling has the EXACT same issues that the other games possess, bowling is NOT one to one control. It's just that it was easier for Matt to cheat at Tennis than to ceat at Bowling.
Oh, and he loves how you can spin the bowling ball? You can twist the racket in Wii Tennis too.
This piece was very...well.. very un-journalistic. That's probably why it's in his blog where he has more cushion room for venting shoot-from-the-hip prgnosis and opinions instead of rationale argument.
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 31, 2006, 09:59:13 AM
Quote Originally posted by: trip1eX He doesn't mention the spin you can put on the ball in tennis. Either slice or topspin. or that you can lob. or the fact that you can do backhands or forehands. (afaik you don't have control of that in other tennis games.) I think the guy is expecting a miracle or something. LIke you're playing virtual reality suddenly.
Mario Tennis series had the complete set of spin mechanics since the N64.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Pittbboi on October 31, 2006, 10:01:02 AM
After playing Wii Tennis, I have to agree with Matt. And it's the exact problem I had with Wii Tennis: it's too simple. When the novelty of the controller wears off (and it does), you realize that Nintendo removed everything that would give the game even a little edge.
And no, wrist flicks aren't just what people do to cheat, for a lot of games wrist flicks actually work better than if you actually performed the real life action, and thats a fault with the design, not the player. I play Tennis, and the first thing I did when I played Wii Tennis was try to swing at the ball the way you would if you were actually playing Tennis, and it didn't work. If the wiimote picked up my action at all it was horribly timed. The game didn't start working properly until I reduced my movements to wrist flicks. And with nothing else to do in the game but flick your wrists, when the novelty wears off, you're just kind of standing there, flicking your wrists...and that's Wii Tennis.
I don't think the fact that WiiSports is nothing but a collection of demos would have been a big deal if Nintendo had been honest about that. But they're treating it like a full-fledged game, and pricing it that way, too.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: willie1234 on October 31, 2006, 10:23:19 AM
all of this just goes to show how i can't wait to get to target and play the demo for myself...
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Edfishy on October 31, 2006, 10:29:53 AM
I'm curious, why didn't Nintendo make WiiSports a channel? Wouldn't it make more sense as an updatable, pre-installed game?
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Kairon on October 31, 2006, 10:45:08 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Pittbboi After playing Wii Tennis, I have to agree with Matt. And it's the exact problem I had with Wii Tennis: it's too simple. When the novelty of the controller wears off (and it does), you realize that Nintendo removed everything that would give the game even a little edge.
And no, wrist flicks aren't just what people do to cheat, for a lot of games wrist flicks actually work better than if you actually performed the real life action, and thats a fault with the design, not the player. I play Tennis, and the first thing I did when I played Wii Tennis was try to swing at the ball the way you would if you were actually playing Tennis, and it didn't work. If the wiimote picked up my action at all it was horribly timed. The game didn't start working properly until I reduced my movements to wrist flicks. And with nothing else to do in the game but flick your wrists, when the novelty wears off, you're just kind of standing there, flicking your wrists...and that's Wii Tennis.
I don't think the fact that WiiSports is nothing but a collection of demos would have been a big deal if Nintendo had been honest about that. But they're treating it like a full-fledged game, and pricing it that way, too.
What you say is interesting about the difficulties of using whole moves versus smaller ones and their corresponding accuracies for actual gameplay. THAT could prove a significant mark against the game come review time. RARGH!
However, they're packing in the game in for the U.S. They've effectively masked the game's price, only hardcore game buyers take the $250 of the Wii and subtract $40 for Wii Sports. Everyone else just feels like they're getting a free game, and for cheaper. The general consumer is perfectly fine with it, as long as they're already fine with the $250 price.
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Ian Sane on October 31, 2006, 10:54:45 AM
Wii Tennis sounds a lot like when someone tries to make something very politically correct where they don't offend anyone and the result is something incredibly bland and dull because everything interesting had to be removed.
In this case Nintendo is making a game for people who don't like games. So they simplify the graphics and remove any complexity, challenge or depth. The problem is that's a big part of what games are. I think it suggests that the very things that turns non-gamers off of games are the core elements of what makes games enjoyable in the first place. It's like making candy for people that don't like candy and making ricecakes as a result. The whole point of candy is lost. I don't think that there's a simple reason why non-gamers are non-gamers and that with a little tweaking games they like could be made. I think a lot of non-gamers don't like games because they don't like the key concepts of what a game is.
"I'm curious, why didn't Nintendo make WiiSports a channel? Wouldn't it make more sense as an updatable, pre-installed game?"
Marketing. Nintendo is pushing motion control as the future. Therefore it would look pretty bad if the best demonstration of the concept was some built-in title. The way they're doing it WiiSports can be considered a "real" game since it comes on a physical disc.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 31, 2006, 10:58:35 AM
Yeah obviously 1 or 2 possibly overly simplified games in a 5 game pack makes Wiisports purely a demo (and that is disregarding some of the positive impressions). Give me a break.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on October 31, 2006, 10:59:00 AM
It probably has to do with the fact that the game has to wait for you to complete a recognized motion before it knows what to do, and large, realistic motions take longer than quick flicks. Tennis requires timing that makes the difference noticeable, unlike most of the other Wii Sports games.
Wii Sports isn't built in because of expense. It would have to be stored on something.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: MaryJane on October 31, 2006, 11:34:28 AM
WiiSports is meant to showcase what the controller can do.
Showcase: You can look, but if you want to touch you have to pay more than just the admission price.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: vudu on October 31, 2006, 11:46:42 AM
Quote Originally posted by: MaryJane Showcase: You can look, but if you want to touch you have to pay more than just the admission price.
Kinda like a lap dance.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 31, 2006, 11:52:47 AM
Quote Originally posted by: vudu
Quote Originally posted by: MaryJane Showcase: You can look, but if you want to touch you have to pay more than just the admission price.
Kinda like a lap dance.
I the one I got turned out to be $40. ROBBERY, I TELL YOU
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 31, 2006, 01:25:16 PM
Quote Originally posted by: vudu
Quote Originally posted by: MaryJane Showcase: You can look, but if you want to touch you have to pay more than just the admission price.
Kinda like a lap dance.
Unless you live in Seattle where they have the 3ft law for stripclubs. So you guys better avoid coming here if you plan to do that stuff!
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Jensen on October 31, 2006, 01:47:06 PM
I think the problem is more with the controller than the software. The controller can't feel the difference between a flick of the wrist and a larger motion.
The controller does best with pointing (using a cursor), and with pitching and rolling in place. Lateral motion can not be directly detected, only inferred. General direction may not be too hard to figure out, but distance is harder.
The only way you can really do full 3d detection of lateral movements (that I know of) is to do it like most motion capture is done... Put 2 or more cameras in different places, and put an IR LED (or a ping pong ball) at the end of the controller.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: couchmonkey on November 01, 2006, 04:39:31 AM
I don't think Nintendo really intends this to be a "preview". In Iwata asks they were all raving about what a bargain the game is and how five games give it lots of longevity. So either Nintendo is crazy and wrong and crazy, or like I said before the game is meant to be a hook for non-gamers. People who don't spend "several hours" playing video games, EVER.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: SixthAngel on November 01, 2006, 05:51:50 AM
All I used to hear from people worried about full armswings was that "you will get tired too fast and it will suck." Nintendo says they will also let you control by just flicking your wrist and now suddenly this is somehow cheating. Some people just can't be pleased even when given what they ask for.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: ThePerm on November 01, 2006, 06:27:45 AM
i'v been listening to ign wiikly, and apparently one of the ign guys figured out how to hit a homerun every time
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: MaryJane on November 01, 2006, 08:32:45 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Jensen I think the problem is more with the controller than the software. The controller can't feel the difference between a flick of the wrist and a larger motion.
The controller does best with pointing (using a cursor), and with pitching and rolling in place. Lateral motion can not be directly detected, only inferred. General direction may not be too hard to figure out, but distance is harder.
The only way you can really do full 3d detection of lateral movements (that I know of) is to do it like most motion capture is done... Put 2 or more cameras in different places, and put an IR LED (or a ping pong ball) at the end of the controller.
That's strange because I swear EA said that Madden will know the difference between a lob pass and a bullet pass, but you must know more about developing for the Wii than they do.
Oh I know what the problem, this is WiiSports, an introduction to the controller.
Think about this, there are 5 games on this one disc, how much effort did they really put into each one? I'm sure their biggest concerns were smooth gameplay not 100% realism, if WiiSports offered 100% realism what would be the point of buying a major league game u could create your own Mii teams and never care about the real deal = bad for business, also it would require more than one disc I bet. Which would negate it's ability to be given free by Nintendo.
If you want to be even more (or less depending on how you look at it) cynical just say that this is a first generation game, and the games will only get better from here on out.
Speaking of which, making the games "incomplete" give Nintendo the opportunity to release WiiSports2 with improved controls, maybe packaged with 2nd gen Wiis that are different colors, or have built in DVD capabilities.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Rhoq on November 01, 2006, 09:45:23 AM
Quote Originally posted by: MaryJane Speaking of which, making the games "incomplete" give Nintendo the opportunity to release WiiSports2 with improved controls, maybe packaged with 2nd gen Wiis that are different colors, or have built in DVD capabilities.
This actually has me a bit concerned. With the latest news out of Japan all but confirming that a revised Wii will retail next year with added functionality, it makes me wonder if buying a Wii now would really be worth it, if something better is coming 6 months later (I've heard Spring 2007).
Of course it would be worth it, but I'm left wondering if being an "early adopter" would be worth the investment on a machine which could potentially be replaced by an upgraded model less than a year later. Different colors is a given (I personally would prefer a black Wii instead of the basic white one). I don't care about DVD playback - but what if there are other enhancements? More internal storage (1GB+)? Slightly more RAM (could make gameplay a bit smoother on troublesome 1st Gen Wii titles). Digital Audio Output/5.1 Surround Sound?
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 01, 2006, 09:58:16 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Rhoq
Quote Originally posted by: MaryJane Speaking of which, making the games "incomplete" give Nintendo the opportunity to release WiiSports2 with improved controls, maybe packaged with 2nd gen Wiis that are different colors, or have built in DVD capabilities.
This actually has me a bit concerned. With the latest news out of Japan all but confirming that a revised Wii will retail next year with added functionality, it makes me wonder if buying a Wii now would really be worth it, if something better is coming 6 months later (I've heard Spring 2007).
Of course it would be worth it, but I'm left wondering if being an "early adopter" would be worth the investment on a machine which could potentially be replaced by an upgraded model less than a year later. Different colors is a given (I personally would prefer a black Wii instead of the basic white one). I don't care about DVD playback - but what if there are other enhancements? More internal storage (1GB+)? Slightly more RAM (could make gameplay a bit smoother on troublesome 1st Gen Wii titles). Digital Audio Output/5.1 Surround Sound?
You may be right about the potential for Digital Sound to be put in, but I doubt that would matter much because it would take awhile for companies to deem it worth the cost to implement it. The 1GB internal memory is also a minor thing, there is more than enough memory to save patches and the system settings. If you want more for game saves or VC just buy a SD card. More ram is another I would not worry about because if Nintendo did that, it would be beyond stupid unless they let you somehow expand the memory in the older Wii system models.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Ian Sane on November 01, 2006, 10:07:17 AM
"Slightly more RAM"
They wouldn't do that. That pretty much would make it a different platform because any game that used the extra RAM would be unplayable on a launch Wii. Nintendo didn't do anything like that with the GBA SP or the DS Lite so I would assume that nothing of that sort would happen this time.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 01, 2006, 10:14:06 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Ian Sane "Slightly more RAM"
They wouldn't do that. That pretty much would make it a different platform because any game that used the extra RAM would be unplayable on a launch Wii. Nintendo didn't do anything like that with the GBA SP or the DS Lite so I would assume that nothing of that sort would happen this time.
Well they did do it with N64, but there it was included with games that required it but if I recall that was known from the start that there would be expansion ram.
Title: RE:IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: MaryJane on November 01, 2006, 11:40:49 AM
yeah the only way to reasonably add more RAM(in terms of a good business decision) would be through a similar device as the N64 had, it could go through the USB ports.
Speaking of which, oh actually I'm going to make a new topic about it after I eat some chinese food... if I remember.
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Kairon on November 01, 2006, 02:05:09 PM
RAM through USB ports?
*faints*
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: IGN (or I should say, Matt) is at it again...
Post by: Ceric on November 01, 2006, 04:13:17 PM
Ok. Everyone stop!
Nintendo might add DVD Playback like the Cube. Maybe a little bigger internal SD Card. It be the equivalent of a better scree for the portables. Different colors. Besides that. It ain't happening folks.
Nintendo has designed the system specs how they wanted. They have been tweaked by ATi and IBM to work well with there processors. Nintendo is not going to go up and change things in 6 months. I can see a smaller one in 2 years. At earliest.
