Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 08:49:25 AM
), but here is the man himself confirming my theory.http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/shiggy/miyamoto-on-the-wii-the-hardware-is-basically-a-gc-205086.php
Told you guys I wasn't crazy!
Post by: Ian Sane on October 04, 2006, 08:55:46 AM
We all suspected the Wii was just a Cube with a new controller but more or less confirming it seems kind of odd. Isn't that bad? Why would Miyamoto want people to know about that?
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2006, 08:58:27 AM
Once again, you're a genius.
But you proposed a technical reboxing of GC, which is factually false.
However, Miyamoto confirms the spirit of your ponderings.
/nod
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2006, 09:00:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I remember the "remaking Cube games" comment came up a while ago.
We all suspected the Wii was just a Cube with a new controller but more or less confirming it seems kind of odd. Isn't that bad? Why would Miyamoto want people to know about that?
He has this little thing called integrity.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 09:00:54 AM
Nintendo realizes that speaking the obvious isn't going to hurt them one bit, PLUS get them some cool points with the "keep it real" set, like myself.
Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 09:02:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I remember the "remaking Cube games" comment came up a while ago.
We all suspected the Wii was just a Cube with a new controller but more or less confirming it seems kind of odd. Isn't that bad? Why would Miyamoto want people to know about that?
He has this little thing called integrity.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Hello Kairon!
Yeah, it's old, but I caught so much flak (BLASPHEMY!) when I stated this a year ago that I'm still kinda sore! LOL!! But thanks for having my back even then!! At least we got to go to the last ever E3, eh?
Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 09:04:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Old.
Once again, you're a genius.
But you proposed a technical reboxing of GC, which is factually false.
However, Miyamoto confirms the spirit of your ponderings.
/nod
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Well, it's all semantics now. I said "repackaging", Shiggy says "....basically a GC".
It's all up to interpretation now. *shrugs*
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2006, 09:04:45 AM
Hey, I happen to own the entire audio recording of all the workshops and conferences and sessions they held for guests to attend. Suda 51 showed up and I got a shirt signed by him and told him that Killer 7 was awesome! I asked a question to a panel moderated by David Perry!
So... will they sue me if I copy the MP3s?
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 09:06:35 AM
In other news, I also (not necessarily in here) told everyone I knew to start buying Ninty stock earlier this year....NOBODY LISTENED
.
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2006, 09:07:47 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: vudu on October 04, 2006, 09:13:36 AM
QuoteYou mean this thread?
Originally posted by: Knoxxville
Couldn't find my original thread (an overzealous mod musta deleted it as blasphemous
Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 09:15:18 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 04, 2006, 09:19:17 AM
The reality is that this isn't a big deal. The last console wars were won by inferior consoles and handhelds.
The NES won over the Master system
The Genesis won over the SNES
The PSone won over the N64
The GB won over the Gamegear
The DS won over the PSP
The PS2 won over both the XBOX AND the Gamecube
Hell, the Dreamcast was ages ahead of the N64 and PSone and they still won over it.
Graphical power is worth crap. The only reason the aforementioned consoles won was because they had a huge library of games that appealed to all sorts of gamers.
Also, we all knew that the Wii was going to be underpowered anyway, so why the big fuss?
Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 09:28:56 AM
Post by: JonLeung on October 04, 2006, 09:35:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
I'm sure Sony and MS fanboys are going to start arguments with Nintendo fanboys because the console is not graphically intensive.
The reality is that this isn't a big deal. The last console wars were won by inferior consoles and handhelds.
The NES won over the Master system
The Genesis won over the SNES
The PSone won over the N64
The GB won over the Gamegear
The DS won over the PSP
The PS2 won over both the XBOX AND the Gamecube
The part about the Genesis...that's not what I heard.
How about this...they're won by the grey consoles.
The NES was grey, the Master System wasn't.
The Game Boy was white (close to grey), the Game Gear wasn't.
The Super NES was grey, the Genesis wasn't (though apparently who "won" is up for debate).
The PlayStation was grey, the N64 wasn't.
Okay, forget that, because you have the dark-coloured generation (black and green Xboxes, black and blue PS2s, black and purple GameCubes) but now a light-coloured generation (white and green Xbox 360s, white and blue Wiis, and silver PS3s)...
Now I'm wondering why grey was so popular. Or that Nintendo liked it so much.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 04, 2006, 09:58:56 AM
The Genesis never amounted to anything in Japan so I really doubt in the end it beat the SNES. The concensus from everywhere I've ever looked up this stuff is that the Genesis initially was beating the SNES in North America but the SNES eventually beat it with Donkey Kong Country. But they were really close and Sega did abandon the Genesis for the Saturn a year or so before Nintendo released the N64. I figure the Japan factor would ensure Nintendo winning worldwide. The SNES did have much more third party support which is an obvious sign of what console is selling better.
I wouldn't consider the comparison in hardware as being the same thing this gen. The Wii isn't just weaker hardware it's pretty much last gen hardware. That's more like having an NES competing against a Genesis. Personally I think the PS3 is such a gong show that it won't matter though.
"Personally, Ian, I find it rather refreshing that Nintendo respects the minds of intelligent gamers everywhere....or at least Shiggy does. I mean, you have to admit, this is MUCH better than Sony trying to convince us that rumble and motion sensor tech cannot co-exist, when really they are just sore at Immersion, you know?"
Yeah but you also have Nintendo closely guarding the specs. It's kind of dumb to hide the specs and then have one of your execs blurt out how "weak" they are. Plus the "respects the minds of intelligent gamers" logic kind of goes out the window when in the same breath he's talking about double-dipping Cube games, a strategy that requires a lack of intelligence from gamers in order to be successful.
Post by: Knoxxville on October 04, 2006, 10:04:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"The Genesis won over the SNES"
The Genesis never amounted to anything in Japan so I really doubt in the end it beat the SNES. The concensus from everywhere I've ever looked up this stuff is that the Genesis initially was beating the SNES in North America but the SNES eventually beat it with Donkey Kong Country. But they were really close and Sega did abandon the Genesis for the Saturn a year or so before Nintendo released the N64. I figure the Japan factor would ensure Nintendo winning worldwide. The SNES did have much more third party support which is an obvious sign of what console is selling better.
I wouldn't consider the comparison in hardware as being the same thing this gen. The Wii isn't just weaker hardware it's pretty much last gen hardware. That's more like having an NES competing against a Genesis. Personally I think the PS3 is such a gong show that it won't matter though.
"Personally, Ian, I find it rather refreshing that Nintendo respects the minds of intelligent gamers everywhere....or at least Shiggy does. I mean, you have to admit, this is MUCH better than Sony trying to convince us that rumble and motion sensor tech cannot co-exist, when really they are just sore at Immersion, you know?"
Yeah but you also have Nintendo closely guarding the specs. It's kind of dumb to hide the specs and then have one of your execs blurt out how "weak" they are. Plus the "respects the minds of intelligent gamers" logic kind of goes out the window when in the same breath he's talking about double-dipping Cube games, a strategy that requires a lack of intelligence from gamers in order to be successful.
Actually, at this point, the spec sheet is pretty much common knowledge. Maybe if he had come out with that a few months ago I could see you point. Also, when I say "respects the minds of intelligent gamers", and least they are being honest and forthwith, regardless of the subject matter. I mean, they assume that most of us have already put 2 and 2 together, so why not confirm it?
It's kinda like a pimp telling this chick, "Look, you're gonna hoe for me and I'm gonna get the money." She already knows what time it is. He didn't have to sit there and try to con her into doing it and then try to hit her for the cash after the fact....she knows what she is getting into before she does. So, by him stating the obvious helps more than hurts.
Post by: The Omen on October 04, 2006, 10:59:37 AM
Post by: TrueNerd on October 04, 2006, 12:07:53 PM
Post by: jasonditz on October 04, 2006, 04:03:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I remember the "remaking Cube games" comment came up a while ago.
We all suspected the Wii was just a Cube with a new controller but more or less confirming it seems kind of odd. Isn't that bad? Why would Miyamoto want people to know about that?
He has this little thing called integrity.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
That's something which seems to be in short supply in this business lately. I wonder how his integrity sits with a marketing department that's bound and determined to make a silk purse out of last generation's sow's ear.
Post by: Neodymium on October 04, 2006, 04:15:22 PM
Genesis = 35 million units.
lol nintedno lost
Post by: mac<censored> on October 04, 2006, 09:57:00 PM
In other words, exactly what they've been saying all along: it's an evolutionary improvement over the GC, but not dramatically different, and shares most of the basic architure. They've almost certainly added a few cool features here and there
- .
It's sort of like the Intel core 2 duo is basically an evolution of the pentium iii -- you can easily develop for the piii architecture using old compilers and your programs will work fine on a core 2 duo, but there are most certainly improvements in the latter! Developing specifically for the newer processor will buy you even more. - My personal wish is for real programmable shaders of some sort, as they're a very important development in modern GPUs (the things you can do with them are quite insane), but perhaps that's too big a leap. Still, I'd hope for at least good normal mapping support; sure it's bling, but it's a particularly pretty sort of bling... :-)
Post by: wandering on October 04, 2006, 10:15:42 PM
There's something else in the interview that I found a thousand times more interesting. Not sure if I should make a new topic or just post it here. Probably should make a new topic.
Post by: IceCold on October 04, 2006, 10:26:47 PM
Post by: thejeek on October 05, 2006, 12:07:19 AM
Quote
All he's saying is that the architecture is similar to the GameCube's, which we've known for a long, long time
'basically a gamecube' seems to me to mean more than just similar, it means, well, basically, it's a game cube. This strikes me as a potential PR gaff of epic proportions - why go to extreme lengths to cover up what's in there so small boys can't argue vertex rates in the playground only to have your top developer compare it to the console you're trying to distance yourself from because said small boys thought it was g@y? I'm increasingly wondering if Miyamoto is still an asset to Nintendo
Post by: ProtoNY on October 05, 2006, 03:51:32 AM
Quote
'basically a gamecube' seems to me to mean more than just similar, it means, well, basically, it's a game cube.
Shiggy is not infallible. I would put more money on the fact that Shiggy is not a hardware guy, while people at ATI are saying that no one has even seen the tip of the iceberg - regarding the capabilities of the GPU.
Since everyone seems to have a pet theory, let me share mine. The first final dev kits that are in the hands of developers will act as a bridge. It easily brings people with GC experience on board and developing games. Some of the games look like GC games because that is what they are used to developing. The developers will start pushing the limits of these dev kits, all the while Nintendo is preparing a more advanced kit that shifts from the Gamecube paridigm over to the Wii. The framework will be familiar and have a smaller learning curve than picking up a dev kit for another platform. Why? Just like the Wii is the evolution of the Gamecube, the dev kits will advance as well.
Yes, we all know it isn't a PS3 or an XBox360. Judging by what I have read, I will say that when it meets its full potential, the Wii will be a lot closer to the new generation than the last generation. Nintendo's strategy is simply to bring as many developers on board, then to increase the quality of the games through their technical channels.
Post by: thejeek on October 05, 2006, 04:28:37 AM
Post by: ProtoNY on October 05, 2006, 04:49:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeek
OK he's not a hardware guy, but with his position in the company he must surely have had input into the design process and be familiar with the machine in some detail. For example, how can he make design decisions about games he's working on without detailed information about what the machine is capable of?
The answer is a lot simpler than you would think. Like everyone else, he is confined to the capabilities of the current dev kits - or possible beta versions of improved ones. Console developers do not write to the specs of the console, they write within the confines of the tools that they have. It is the same with traditional software development. You are given a toolkit that defines the functionality that the system is expected to handle.
I am a Shiggy fan, don't get me wrong. But still, you are right. He is not a hardware guy. Regardless of what input he had in the design process, if one of the chip manufacturers says that there is a large amount of feasibly untapped power, my money is going on the person who designed the physical chip, not the one who said, "Hmmm... Sounds good to me.".
Post by: jasonditz on October 05, 2006, 06:18:18 AM
But then again, it's not like this is our first hint that this is the case. If Nintendo is unhappy with that perception maybe they shouldn't keep their specs a secret.
Post by: thejeek on October 05, 2006, 08:09:39 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on October 05, 2006, 08:33:11 AM
Exactly. The natural assumption as to why someone wouldn't release the specs is that the specs are weaksauce. The fact that negative misinformation has spread about the Wii hardware and Nintendo hasn't used the specs to put out the fire just confirms the assumption.
I figure most of the R&D for the Wii has been for the controller. I also suspect that Nintendo originally was going to go with a more conventional console (this would be like five years ago before Iwata was in charge) and some of IBM's and ATI's work was on that. The Wii, the DS and all this non-gamer stuff is a direct response to why Nintendo thinks the Cube didn't sell that well. When they assumed it would sell well they probably had a different plan for the next gen.
Post by: couchmonkey on October 05, 2006, 09:01:22 AM
There definitely was R&D for the Wii hardware, make no mistake. But all that went into making a very small console with no fan rather than a more powerful one. While Microsoft and Sony's behemoths experience various heating issues and require fancy cooling solutions (that don't work well enough in many cases), Nintendo's tiny machine doesn't even need a fan.
All of this is part of the plan to make a machine that is inobtrusive. It has to be able to fit anywhere without annoying anybody with noise, visual clutter, or wasted space. Those were the hardware requirements, not more power.
Post by: Kairon on October 05, 2006, 11:41:03 AM
Quote
There has been some discussion about an alleged Shigeru Miyamoto interview by GameBrink. In it, Miyamoto apparently says about Wii:
The hardware is basically a GC. We’ve upgraded our development tools to new versions but, you can still use GC programs as they are.
The interview is over a month old. And, according to Joystiq, Miyamoto really said:
The machine is based on GC. We'll be upgrading the development tools, but GameCube code can be used for the most part as is.
Funny how a small syntactical error can make such a big difference semantically.
Thanks to: Nintendo-wii.blogspot.com
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on October 05, 2006, 11:44:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: jasonditz
I wonder how his integrity sits with a marketing department that's bound and determined to make a silk purse out of last generation's sow's ear.
Miyamoto told them to do it. Miyamoto told us they're doing it. And if people buy it, it'll be because they really want it. Everybody wins!
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: jasonditz on October 05, 2006, 09:33:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Yep, I agree Ian, and in fact the recent Miyamoto interview confirms it: at first Nintendo's next-gen strategy was all about timing and getting certain games out on a specific schedule. But then they started to consider whether or not gaming can remain the way it is for another 5-10 years.
There definitely was R&D for the Wii hardware, make no mistake. But all that went into making a very small console with no fan rather than a more powerful one. While Microsoft and Sony's behemoths experience various heating issues and require fancy cooling solutions (that don't work well enough in many cases), Nintendo's tiny machine doesn't even need a fan.
All of this is part of the plan to make a machine that is inobtrusive. It has to be able to fit anywhere without annoying anybody with noise, visual clutter, or wasted space. Those were the hardware requirements, not more power.
I can buy that, but only to a point. It's not like Nintendo had to pay IBM to invent the low-heat CPU.
