Post by: natas on March 05, 2003, 05:36:31 AM
Last Week I decided to buy myself a brand new Toshiba 57HDX82 HDTV. Thats right 57inch widescreen HDTV. Knowing that my T.V wouldn't be here until monday March 3rd I ordered the HDTV compat cable from the Nintendo store. Well The t.v came monday but the cable wasn't there yet. Well yesterday to my surprise the cable was on my doorstep.
So I hooked this bad boy up. The only issue I have with the cable is that I have to use the other cable for audio and the fact that it lacks a nice Digital audio connector on it. No worries. My idea here is to buy a extra cable and power cable for the living room that way I can switch from my room to the living room. (My girlfriend tends to play Animal Crossing for atleast 3-4 hours at a time...so its better that she plays that in my room).
Well anyway I guess this could be a review of the cable. Here it goes:
First game I popped in of course was Metroid Prime. I held down the "B" while turning the game on and it prompted me for Progressive Scan. I said yes. Right from the opening screen I could see a difference. Color was way brighter and the black and white levels were alot cleaner. The image on the 57inch screen T.V went from blurry to sharp like a computer monitor. I actually got bored of metroid prime on the smaller t.v but after hooking this cable up I played last night for 3 hours and noticed a ton of things I was missing mainly because this cable sharpens things up so much that you actually get a better depth perception.
The next test was Skies of Arcadia. The game is not Progressive scan. Knowing that a component (Y/Pb/Pr) cable should give you better quality than a S-Video or standard composite cable I figured the picture should clean up a little. Well it did. Its not the biggest improvement in the world...but it makes a difference on a huge screen. When you have a large HDTV you start to notice alot of stuff about cables, power etc you didn't before. With a normal t.v a little blur, static, vertical/horizontal lines or ghosting won't show up as much...with this T.V you see it all. Sat TV looks like complete crap unless you have a very clean signal...in fact DVD's you even start to notice noise etc if the DVD is done bad. Anyway to my point...this cable does help out and when hooking it up and playing a non-progressive scan game the Picture quality did improve a little.
If you have a HDTV this is a must buy hands down. I give the cable a 9/10. It would get a 10 in my mind if it came with audio connections and even better digital audio connection.
I will try to get a pic of the T.V playing Metroid prime. If only Metroid prime was in 16:9
Post by: theaveng on March 05, 2003, 05:51:34 AM
QuoteHave you tried a VHS tape? With only half the DVD resolution, it should look like absolute crap.
Originally posted by: natas
When you have a large HDTV you start to notice alot...in fact DVD's you even start to notice noise etc if the DVD is done bad...
Post by: ThePerm on March 05, 2003, 06:32:00 AM
Post by: betamac on March 05, 2003, 06:34:37 AM
these have a much higher resolution than standard DVDS so will look much better, obviously you have to sacrifice the extras
I would like a setup like that been planning on replacing my 32" Widescreen Sony for a plasma, but just dont know
Post by: EggyToast on March 05, 2003, 06:42:21 AM
Anyway, yeah, it's great with progressive scan on big TV's. I have a 53" panasonic HDTV and it makes me actually look forward to playing games, instead of just something to pass the time
Games like Pikmin where the landscapes are beautiful and the colors just POP look great spread across the screen.And, just so you know, apparently if you have the component cables plugged in, you don't need to hold "B" for progressive scan. I never do any more and I still get the prompt. It's automatic.
Post by: betamac on March 05, 2003, 06:46:00 AM
plus they are so much smaller (Flatter) and easier to position than a standard TV and for me to have the perfect position for my home cinema setup i need to hang on the wall
Post by: nolimit19 on March 05, 2003, 06:54:21 AM
Post by: Mingesium on March 05, 2003, 08:56:49 AM
Kidtendo is reporting that the Japanese and European version of Metroid Prime will have improvements over the American version.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 05, 2003, 09:34:20 AM
Because I wouldnt know which normal TV is a 53inch. Sorry for this dumb question, dont know much about TVs.
I envy all you people that have enough money to buy those super fancy TVs.
Do Plasma TVs support Progressive Scan?
Post by: thesos21 on March 05, 2003, 09:35:55 AM
Post by: EggyToast on March 05, 2003, 09:48:44 AM
The thing about putting plasma screens on the wall is only due to their depth, being a few inches. They still weigh a good 70--100 pounds, which, granted, is about half of what a projection TV weighs. But it's not as trivial as just "hanging on the wall" -- you need mounting brackets and a quality wall to mount it against (not to mention be able to make pretty good-sized holes in the thing).
The reason that plasma doesn't look as good is because plasma works by essentially lighting up all of the plasma, which means that blacks don't look as black as they should. Normal TV's do it fine because black is simply lack of light -- nothing shines there. LCDs are also good, but the ones that aren't top 'o the line have problems with high contrast, as the white "bleeds" into the black, causing some ghosting.
And hem, we're talking about the rear projection TV's. regular TV's don't show up in retail in much of anything over 40".
I know someone who recently purchased a 94" front projection system. That's simply a high-quality screen you put on the wall, and a ceiling mounted projector. It's HDTV, extremely high quality, and cheap, too -- it only cost him about $2k (for 94"!!). The whole system is also much lighter than both plasma and LCD, as the screen is separate and very light, and the projector itself is simply stuck to the ceiling. But due to the separate components and the extremely large size, you really need a lot of space for it. You know that motion sickness warning in the front of game booklets? You start to feel that after long gaming sessions on a 50" TV -- imagine on a 94"!
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 05, 2003, 10:02:16 AM
Ive never seen progressive scan, is that something only rear-projector tvs support?
So for ultimate picture gaming quality (size irrelevant) whats the best choice? I bet something I cant afford
BTW I heard that the Xbox Soul Calibut supports something called 'D4 Progressive Scan' which runs at a resolution of 1280 x 720 Pixel only for HDTVs. Do all HDTVs support such a resolution?
Post by: kusanagi on March 05, 2003, 10:25:19 AM
Post by: natas on March 05, 2003, 10:25:35 AM
betamac: I already have a few Superbit titles coming in this week. Dark Crystal Superbit was released this week and its on it way to my house
Yes the superbits are suppose to look real nice...but there still not High Def. Hopefully at the end of this year we will start to see the new HD-DVD format in stores. Right now they are trying to decide on the standard here. So for now the only thing I get in true HD quality are a few X-box games (yes my roomate has a xbox...its not mine!) and a few local stations that broadcast in HD.Although the gamecube is not true High Def and just progressive scan it still makes a huge difference when compared to playing the game on a normal t.v or a HDTV with the non-HD cables.
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 05, 2003, 11:04:57 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 05, 2003, 11:14:15 AM
how expensive is a rear-projector HDTV?
i always thought standard rear projectors were already quite expensive
are plasma or rear-projector HDTV better (in resolution, color, for gaming etc)
Post by: KrazyJ1098 on March 05, 2003, 11:22:48 AM
Post by: KrazyJ1098 on March 05, 2003, 11:24:31 AM
Post by: Agent on March 05, 2003, 12:27:43 PM
http://www.bestbuy.com/detail.asp?e=11101557&m=1&cat=24&scat=28
for only $200. Its not hdtv but compared to my last tv this flat screen is a big step up. I don't have a gc but now having an s-video hook up also helps alot for my xbox. My last tv didn't have that feature either.
Is it true that you start to notice alot more jaggies though on an hdtv, becuase you can now notice them with all the clarity?
BTW I didn't know gc supported Doly Digital sound. Or else why did you expect a plug for it?
Post by: NickNiteQ93 on March 05, 2003, 02:24:58 PM
Post by: Trippy Pancakes on March 06, 2003, 02:16:59 AM
In my experience, yes. For instance, in Metroid Prime when you stand completely still for a few seconds Samus starts swaying ever so slightly to and fro. Due to the slow motion/drifting in this instance, some of the lines are effectively being drawn at a very slow frame rate and it becomes noticeable. It's not horrible, but it can be annoying (and in some of the areas it's not as noticeable). If you turn the sharpness down on the TV it helps.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 06, 2003, 02:52:55 AM
I wish that more games supported 16:9.
Post by: MetalHead666 on March 06, 2003, 01:16:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: betamac
With a setup like that you should buy Superbit DVDS
these have a much higher resolution than standard DVDS so will look much better, obviously you have to sacrifice the extras
I would like a setup like that been planning on replacing my 32" Widescreen Sony for a plasma, but just dont know
Superbit DVDs dont have a higher resolution. They just run at a higher bit rate. For example, "the ring" runs at 7.79 MB per second. Which is near a super bit level. but it still runs in 480p like every other DVD. you may be thinking of the upcoming HDdvds that run in 1080i.
Post by: EggyToast on March 06, 2003, 01:30:05 PM
LCD TV's are about $4000-$8000, again depending on size and quality, and plasmas are usually about $2000 more than LCD screens. And yes, those prices are on their way down, and pretty quickly, too.
With HDTV you will notice edges and jaggies more often, mostly because the images are SO clear that they stand out more. On normal TVs the low quality of the picture will often provide a sort of anti-aliasing of its own, but it's at a cost of resolution and pixels. But that's minor, as most TVs will force you to notice the limitations of the actual screen much more often than the limitations of the game hardware/software. If you've ever played a newer game on a larger normal TV, say, over 28", you probably noticed that you can see the horizontal lines on the screen if you're paying attention. That only becomes more noticeable the larger the TV gets. With HDTV, there's none of that, and the only limitations so far are how good the signal is. So you'll notice more jaggies on edges, but you're seeing what the software is actually producing, which is a great tradeoff from what I've played. You're noticing the actual jaggies, instead of the jaggies introduced by the low-quality TV.
Post by: Sean on March 06, 2003, 01:35:42 PM
Anyway, the best buy I've seen for a prog. scan TV was $1000.00 for a 26". Still, way out of my price-range as of right now, but in a year or two, something like that will be mine, oh yes.
Glad to hear the difference is all it's cracked up to be. What're we going to do with all the hundreds of millions of TV's that aren't high-def in the near-future????
Post by: Trippy Pancakes on March 07, 2003, 02:21:11 AM
Sean, go to www.BestBuy.com and Search for Samsung TVs (HDTVs). The 27" is $699.00 and the 32" is on sale for $899.00.
Post by: EggyToast on March 07, 2003, 04:42:45 AM
If you want to do the hang-on-the-wall thing, that's the way to do it
Those samsung TV's aren't the greatest (I did a lot of comparison shopping when I was hunting for my TV), and the cheaper ones don't have any 3:2 pulldown (which helps a LOT with anti-aliasing and a clear picture). But they're also dropping quickly in price -- the one for $899 was $999 just a little over a month ago.
I also noticed that the jagged edges are more due to the image being displayed on a huge-ass screen. If you compare a 13" computer monitor running at 640x480 to a 19" computer monitor running at 640x480, the 13" will probably look better because the smaller size helps hide those pixels. But the bigger monitor can display other resolutions much better. It's similar with a big TV -- most HDTVs out there right now are on really big screens, so you notice the tiniest flaws a little easier. Compared to a giant normal TV screen, though, there's a world of difference.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 07, 2003, 05:16:34 AM
Post by: Trippy Pancakes on March 07, 2003, 06:44:43 AM
Samsung 32" DynaFlat HDTV Monitor
Samsung Tantus 27" HDTV Monitor with DynaFlat Flat Picture Tube
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 08, 2003, 01:45:08 AM
Post by: theaveng on March 08, 2003, 03:41:21 AM
I don't understand why those HDTV monitors are 4:3 ratio? Shouldn't they have 16:9 widescreens? Well, whatever. The $700 pricetag is too rich for my blood. My standard 27" TV was only $200, so I'll wait 1-2 years until these "special" HDTVs come down in price.
QuoteIf you don't have S-Video cable, it's worth getting. You can see the difference even on a standard TV.
Originally posted by: Hemmorrhoid
Well, since ive never seen even S-Video let alone component input progressive scan stuff, and I still find the graphics great, I can settle with the fact that until I get a better TV I miss out on some visual quality.
Post by: Azule on March 16, 2003, 09:31:27 AM
"3:2 pulldown" - huh?
What's the smallest HDTV worth buying, and widescreen worth it or not? Is a large CRT with component inputs a good alternative? There may be some financial issues, but mainly I don't want to deal with looking at jaggies.
Please answer my questions.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 16, 2003, 11:53:00 AM
Post by: scot on March 29, 2003, 02:51:41 AM
http://www.mediaibc.com/cine/Tech/edit_tech/Pulldown%20Explained.shtml
Check out that page, or do some more searching and find some more less technical explanations.
Oh and my panasonic l300u projector (<2k) works great with my 119" hccv dalite screen. No burnin, and takes MUCH less room overall than my toshiba tw56x81 rear projection. Even though the black levels are nowhere near as good as the rptv, the colors are amazing, and the size is...
As far as which TV to buy to limit jaggies? Remember what we are dealing with here. You are taking a limited resolution and blowing it up on a large screen. NO specific tv or rptv will matter when it comes to "eliminating jaggies" since it just the size difference. Now what some of the better sets do is part of the "upconversion" or line doubling or whatever. They will try to "create" resolution by smoothing out the transitions between lines. This only works on a set that supports a HIGHER resolution than the original material, but the effect is still limited by the original resolution, and how much processing is really required for good viewing. In general the good sets use minimal processing, just enough to get everything looking right. any more and you actually change the original image, which is not good.
For gameplay I would NOT suggest an RPTV or any largeformat crt displays. The CRT can suffer "burnin" like old computer monitors. Games are notorious for having fixed items (dashboard, speedometer, rearview, health indicators etc) that will sit on the screen without moving for hours and hours. This can become permenantly "burnt" into the screen. (though technically its the other way around where those spots on the crt have LESS ability to glow, and the screen has nothing to do with it...)
Here is my personal list:
If you play at night or in a room without windows:
LCD or DLP Projector. DLP is better if you can afford one with a 3x+ color wheel (3k+) though lcd isnt far behind.
(All of the cheaper projectors are either LCD or DLP based. DLP while sounding like a great idea, can cause headaches and "rainbows" for some people when used with a 2x color wheel. The more expensive ones either use 3-5x color wheels or 3dlp chips. Some people are also affected by 3x color wheels, and require 5x wheels. ) If you think you want to go with a projector, PLEASE check around on the internet. Ask me privately if you want a few sites to go visit for more info. There are tons of projectors, and no good standards for measurements, so the quotes specs are almost 100% misleading!
If you have windows:
Plasma if you have $$$$$$$$ - Warning, cheap plasmas are AWEFUL. Bad refresh rates etc.
LCD Not really a good choice with thelimited viewing angle, but not bad either. Blacks are not as good as the plasma.
Regular Tube: Probably the best choice for the money.
RPTV: IF you are willing to risk burnin....
Widescreen or not. If you will watch dvds on the same unit, GET WIDESCREEN. If its HDTV and you think you will watch real hdtv on it. GET WIDESCREEN
otherwise 4:3 is good.
Scot
Post by: Mario on March 29, 2003, 05:49:01 PM
Post by: Azule on March 29, 2003, 07:02:35 PM
Post by: theaveng on March 30, 2003, 07:59:18 AM
Here's the REAL answers:
interlace = The TV draws odd horizontal lines on one frame (1,3,5,...) and even horizontal lines on the next frame (2,4,6,...). Repeat that cycle 30 times a second.
progressive = The TV draws ALL the lines (1,2,3,4,5,6,...) in a single frame.
The words "interlace" and "progressive" are self-explanatory if you think about their meaning. Interlaced mode interlaces the lines together on separate frames. Progressive mode draws the picture progressive down the screen without skipping lines.
Post by: theaveng on March 30, 2003, 07:59:21 AM
Also, why do you say NTSC is 29.97 frames per second? Isn't the frame frequency determined by the electric frequency of 60 cycles per second?
Troy (Sidles out of the room)
Post by: theaveng on March 30, 2003, 07:59:22 AM
Post by: Azule on March 30, 2003, 11:09:29 AM
I know exactly what it is, but I felt like giving a laymans explanation, for....the layman out there.
