Post by: JonLeung on September 11, 2006, 03:20:00 PM
The Mortal Kombat issue in question is that Nintendo had never seen such atrocity before, and so the first game was altered - essentially censored. There was no blood, and Fatalities were changed. The Genesis had blood (or a code that enabled it, I believe), as well as the more gruesome Fatalities. The problem was that the Genesis had worse controls and worse graphics. So would you want to download both? Would they even have both available or just one or the other? Now I had mentioned that the ideal version would be a Super NES-like one with the blood and Fatalities intact. (That is until Ian reminded me that the original arcade game would be best. Perhaps Nintendo can get a hold of a few arcade games, but they probably wouldn't make a big deal about it unless they can get a lot.)
Now, in The Legend Of Zelda, the villain is named Gannon - with three Ns, two in the middle. In the rereleases of The Legend Of Zelda (Animal Crossing, Collectors Edition, GBA NES Classics) this has been changed to Ganon (two Ns, only one in the middle) to coincide with the correct spelling according the the other games in the series. Surely no one's going to be concerned if they go back and fix a few spelling errors, right? But then what about the Engrish-that's-so-bad-it's-still-somehow-funny-to-some-people like in the opening of Zero Wing for the Genesis? Or, a more spelling-related-yet-still-likely Engrish thing like the classic "I FEEL ASLEEP" line from Metal Gear? (Metal Gear also had a password that took you to the end that included a swear word - THE word that begins with F - removing that now means you have to use another password or *gasp* play the game again.)
Story retcons would be possible, but should they be? Would it matter much that the world didn't end in 1997 as predicted by the NES version of Crystalis (I forget what the GBC version said) or that Lavos didn't awaken in 1999 according to Chrono Trigger (I forget which year Chrono Cross came out in)? Would you get as much thrill from not killing a guy (even though you fought him the same way) just so that they could better explain how he comes back in a sequel? (As an example, I had hoped that Metroid: Zero Mission, being a retcon of Metroid, would have Ridley, Kraid, and the Mother Brain all escape instead of die, thus avoiding the unnecessarily unrealistic (IMO) revival of all of them in Metroid Prime/Super Metroid. However, it's already been established in Metroid Prime that they are "revived", so perhaps death is still necessary for continuity. And then, on a related note (or maybe not), how would you market this? I'm sure some of you would argue with me, but the Metroid Prime series, taking place between Metroid: Zero Mission (which replaces Metroid) and Metroid II: Return Of Samus, should make those three games all part of "Metroid 1" (also because Prime means first), since Metroid: Zero Mission implies that it's now "Metroid 0". Thus, the NES Metroid, though first released and knocked out of continuity, shouldn't they advertise it as the original zeroth game in the franchise, not the original first game? OMG - arguments against basic numbers will likely ensue! Back on a related note - shouldn't Samus make at least ONE comment about her adventures in the Metroid Prime games in her recap at the beginning of Super Metroid? Some events have nothing to do with what will happen in Super Metroid, but you'd think she'd at least make a passing comment about Ridley being a continuous pain.
Going back to The Legend Of Zelda, and related to killing... in the gold cart version of Ocarina Of Time, Link slashes Ganon in the face to finish him off. He spews red blood. Supposedly in the later-released grey cart version of the game, this has been changed to green or something less disturbing. Perhaps someone can remind me what the rereleases of this game (Wind Waker preorder bonus disc, Master Quest, Collectors Edition) have. Which should be included in the VC version of the game? Again, it doesn't matter a ton, even for the visceral effect, certainly less than Ganondorf getting the Master Sword right in his head in his human form in Wind Waker but if you change that, what else is open for game designers to go back and change? If Spielberg can go back and edit E.T. so that a character has a walkie-talkie instead of a gun, and that causes some controversy, then maybe game developers might go back and change weapons entirely, which could then be of "Han/Greedo shot first" retcon controversies.
Do you like games exactly as they were - straight up ROM code put through official emulators - or do you open them up for change? Online multiplayer, spelling fixes, that's cool. But if they can be changed, then how far can they change the games before they're not the same anymore?
Post by: blackfootsteps on September 11, 2006, 03:36:25 PM
a,b,a,c,a,b,b.
In general, stuff like that (little mistakes and what not) doesn't bother me. In the MK example I would never play MKI if I had access to MKII anyway!
Changing movies / games around to ensure continuity is going over the top, I don't really see a massive benefit to be gained anywhere. Its like the changes butchering of the original trilogy of Star Wars, did it really need to be done?
Post by: Mario on September 11, 2006, 04:26:36 PM
Post by: jasonditz on September 11, 2006, 05:37:54 PM
Post by: jasonditz on September 11, 2006, 05:41:45 PM
Post by: IceCold on September 11, 2006, 06:08:50 PM
Post by: Mario on September 11, 2006, 06:41:27 PM
Post by: AnyoneEB on September 11, 2006, 07:51:21 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on September 12, 2006, 12:02:34 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on September 12, 2006, 04:12:29 AM
Post by: Ceric on September 12, 2006, 04:27:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Of course I'd like to see changes to old titles if just to get a version of Adventure of Link with a save system that doesn't suck. And maybe even enhanced combat but at that point it might seem a better idea to just make a GBA remake of it.
QFT. Even if it's just works the way it was suppose to according to the NES manual.
Post by: Mario on September 12, 2006, 04:30:10 AM
Post by: Ceric on September 12, 2006, 04:53:04 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 12, 2006, 05:10:05 AM
If they are making content changes (sweat instead of blood) or simplifying the levels or games then I say hell no.
With the 3D games...if they can replace the game with better textures or higher resolution textures and want to spend the time doing that then I saw HELL YES!!!
Post by: KDR_11k on September 12, 2006, 05:38:54 AM
Post by: Ceric on September 12, 2006, 05:43:09 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 12, 2006, 07:51:19 AM
I say for the Virtual Console they should aim for what I would call the definitive version. That doesn't mean modern changes like when Nintendo adds stupid voices and dumbs down the difficulty. I mean they look at what versions were available at the time and take what works from all of them.
- Super Metroid was designed for the SNES and only came out on the SNES so it should be a straight port.
- Earthworm Jim came out on the Genesis and SNES at the same time but the Genesis version had an extra level. Then the Sega CD version came out with difficulty settings, passwords and another new level plus everything the Genesis version had. Ideally in that case the Sega CD version is the way to go.
- Donkey Kong was originally an arcade game. The NES version has inferior graphics and is missing a level. Since the NES version was just supposed to be a straight arcade port use the arcade version but make it say "press start" and not have "insert coin" stuff.
- TMNT IV was originally an arcade game. For the SNES version they added new levels but the graphics took a hit and they removed four player support. Ideally they should combine the two versions to have the SNES levels but the arcade graphics and four player support.
But then there's something like Bionic Commando where the NES version and the arcade version are totally different and even though the arcade version is the original the NES one is what became a classic. In that case I'm not sure what to do. I figure it would be best to have both versions since they're so different.
It really is a case by case basis. The only rules should be that if there is only one version that should be the only version and they should not try to modernize the games, just include extras that were available in different versions at the time. If they're smart they should make unaltered versions of every variation available as well. Like you can buy a definitive version and choose to buy unaltered straight ports as well.
Post by: JonLeung on September 12, 2006, 08:19:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
I go back and forth on this. If it something like Super Mario AllStars where the changes are graphical enhancements and not much else, I am ok with it. (Though perhaps an option to play the original would be nice.)
This brings up two issues:
1. The appeal of some old games (particularly the 2D games) are their graphics. I'd bet that more people have nostalgic feelings for the NES Super Mario Bros. games than the Super NES All-Star rereleases.
2. Then the next issue is about the rereleases that have already been made - Super Mario All-Stars, as you mentioned, and there are a few others, I think, like Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. There's also two versions of Super Mario All-Stars, one that includes Super Mario World as well.
Personally, I'd not make All-Stars+World available, as it's a compilation of sorts, including the already available All-Stars versions of games and Super Mario World while still on the Super NES. (For example, it's not necessary to include the standalone Super Mario Bros., the Super Mario Bros. that came with Duck Hunt, and the Super Mario Bros. that came with Duck Hunt and World Class Track Meet. Similarly, Donkey Kong Classics has Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., and I think it might have Donkey Kong Jr. Math, but I would release the three games only separately.) But about All-Stars...should that be released at the regular Super NES game price, or should you get a discount if you already have the NES games downloaded?
And then what about Sonic & Knuckles? That was a Genesis game cartridge, but it also acted like external cheat devices do - and could have the Sonic The Hedgehog games plugged into that - to play those old games with enhancements, most notably including the ability to play Knuckles in them. So would "Sonic 2 & Knuckles" become available for free if you buy both Sonic & Knuckles & Sonic The Hedgehog 2? It really should. It's easy enough with the cartridges, but is it going to require an extra download or something? I guess that's more of an oddball scenario than being related to compilations and remakes, though.
Here's another one while I'm at it - how about renaming Final Fantasy II and III to their proper numbers, IV and VI?
There are plenty of scenarios, and Ian's right, most would be determined on a case by case basis. I expect those would be based on fan support and if they're worth releasing in certain ways.
Post by: KDR_11k on September 12, 2006, 08:26:16 AM
Super Metroid could benefit from a slight change to the control scheme to make it more like the GBA versions. I just like having a missile button instead of having to select the missiles, THEN fire. Maybe even hide one extra item somewhere, tell noone about it and allow the player to reach 101% completion :P.
Arcade versions will most likely not be available, I don't think Nintendo will include a MAME-like emulator.
Post by: JonLeung on September 12, 2006, 08:40:03 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 12, 2006, 08:50:05 AM
This is the sort of stuff I don't want. That's modern game design mechanics added to a classic game that was already perfect. It really is no different than Nintendo making Link shout "yah" with every sword swing in A Link to the Past.
"Here's another one while I'm at it - how about renaming Final Fantasy II and III to their proper numbers, IV and VI?"
I'd probably suggest that just to eliminate confusion with the real FFII and III which could be made available. FFIV is really complicated because they also changed the difficulty for the American version (in Japan it's called "Easytype" or something like that). In that case the best thing to do would be to call it FFIV and when the player starts a game they can pick Easy or Normal.
Sonic & Knuckles is REALLY complicated. Is there a way for a game to know if another game has been downloaded? If they programmed that logic in then they just make it unlock if you've bought both games. "You have purchased Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Please enjoy a free download of Sonic 3 & Knuckles."
Post by: vudu on September 12, 2006, 09:29:13 AM
As far as what version of the games to use, my vote is for a straight up emulation. Nothing changed at all. The only possible exception to this rule would be Ian's often used example of Donkey Kong (NES). But I'd still prefer they offer the (inferrior) NES port as well as the original arcade version, if possible.
Post by: King of Twitch on September 12, 2006, 10:03:38 AM
Perhaps they could make a blanket save feature to use on all VC games?
Might be a good idea to fix the Metal Gear swear word, just to avoid another hot coffee brouhaha, but no Lucasing around.
For the ports like Mario All-Stars give a massive discount to download the originals instead of combining exclusive features into one game.
That's just my take.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on September 12, 2006, 10:29:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MJRx9000
Perhaps they could make a blanket save feature to use on all VC games?
They could support save states, but I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, they're handy beyond description. On the other, they make it really easy to cheat by letting you try the same thing over and over until you get it perfect, then save again. That tends to take a lot of the enjoyment out of games I've played emulated. I personally find it a very difficult temptation to resist, unfortunately. I suppose they could make it menu driven, which would slow things down enough to make them less useful for cheating.
Regardless, I doubt Nintendo will support save states. We'll have to ironman those old games, just like the old days, minus the blowing.
Post by: King of Twitch on September 12, 2006, 10:42:24 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 12, 2006, 10:46:04 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 12, 2006, 10:56:37 AM
I think the ideal way to do it is make the save delete itself when you open it. Ideally what you need a save for is to stop playing a game and resuming it later. Then you can't abuse it but you don't have to dedicate hours to beating a game in one sitting. It's effectively just pausing the game to play it later.
Though I would recommend adding saves for high scores since some games didn't have that. Another example is that Excitebike originally didn't let you save your track designs and they later added a save for that in the GBA re-release. I think that sort of change is fine.
Post by: Famicom on September 12, 2006, 11:17:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think the ideal way to do it is make the save delete itself when you open it. Ideally what you need a save for is to stop playing a game and resuming it later. Then you can't abuse it but you don't have to dedicate hours to beating a game in one sitting. It's effectively just pausing the game to play it later.
This still doesn't prevent cheating though. If I saved before a boss and died and reloaded the save, even if it deletes itself I can just save again right on the spot. The only true way around this would be to include it as a Save & Quit option, which is essentially quitting with a guaranteed restart point, then have THAT delete upon opening the game again.
But really, I'm not one of these loyalists who need their games cheat free. I don't have the patience to suffer through a class 1000 difficulty level game like I used to when I was a kid (and I didn't have much patience for it then either), I play the games for fun. And fun for me is the experience of winning! I'm not asking for automatic god mode/unlimited ammo cheats or anything, but an unlimited save point would be nice.
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 12, 2006, 11:27:46 AM
Super Metroid was great...but not perfect.
For example, Being able to use the shoulder buttons to angle attacks would make the game design much easier. All ready Super Metroid's Grappling Hook can be hard to manipulate...this is the reason it hasn't been used again. If Nintendo can find a means to make the game play, and feel better I believe they owe that to the gamer.
I understand the point of not adding powerups because it hurts the purity of the game...however, I think adding something like the Powergrip or something would be great.
Post by: vudu on September 12, 2006, 11:31:49 AM
QuoteI think we all knew that's what Ian meant.
Originally posted by: Famicom
This still doesn't prevent cheating though. If I saved before a boss and died and reloaded the save, even if it deletes itself I can just save again right on the spot. The only true way around this would be to include it as a Save & Quit option, which is essentially quitting with a guaranteed restart point, then have THAT delete upon opening the game again.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 12, 2006, 11:49:27 AM
That is what I meant but I really should have specified it.
"For example, Being able to use the shoulder buttons to angle attacks would make the game design much easier."
You already can angle attacks with the shoulder buttons in Super Metroid. One of them angles up, the other angles down, and if you press both together you aim straight up thus allowing the cool ability to duck while aiming. That's the problem with the shoulder missile idea. While a great idea in later Metroid games Super Metroid was originally designed to make use of using both shoulder buttons for aiming. Though I think the classic controller has four shoulder buttons so you would have enough buttons for it in that case. I just don't like Nintendo having the precedent for changing their games because they WILL abuse it to try to make their old games fit better with later games or appeal more to current trends. Look at what they did to the SNES-to-GBA ports.
How about you can customize your virtual console's button mapping? If I want A to be the left shoulder button I can, even if the game itself doesn't allow for customized controls. That isn't going to allow shoulder button missiles but it gives us a lot of flexibility.
Post by: Kairon on September 12, 2006, 02:37:15 PM
But the market has shown otherwise, and even though I disagree with them on principle, I must say that Square-Enix certainly DOES a lot of work "updating" and re-envisioning their FF rereleases, work that cannot be pooh-pooh-ed just to suit my belief in non-retouched ports.
Also see: George Lucas and Star Wars. *sigh*
Just give me the original as an option and I'll be perfectly content.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: JonLeung on September 12, 2006, 03:01:19 PM
See? Change is tempting.
EDIT: Then again, infinite saves can be achieved by copying and renaming files, which should hopefully be achieveable simply because of the use of SD cards which can be read on a PC.
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 12, 2006, 05:21:08 PM
The main thing I want is for games to actually introduce saves. Even if they didn't originally have them. You might argue it makes games too easy...but I have played too many old school games where the game just takes too much one time commitment, because saves don't exist...and any game with Passwords would be much better to feature saves instead, so you don't go crazy inputting in those codes. It is unneccessary and old technology that could use an upgrade.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 12, 2006, 08:41:22 PM
Most old school games I've played either take within an hour to beat if you're good enough to beat them or less than that to die trying. There are some exceptions like Super Mario Bros 3 and Jurassic Park but back in the day most games followed the arcade design of short but difficult and your play time came from replaying the game to get good enough to beat it. A game like Contra for example is designed to be completed in like half an hour. If you play longer than that you've lost enough lives that you'll never beat it in that try. Anything beyond a temp save would totally ruin the intended challenge of the game. They try making old school style games on the GBA but they have no replay value because you can save anywhere so you beat it the first night you get it. The difficulty level of a classic game is part of the design and tinkering with it can affect the balance as much as tinkering with the controls. Again it should be case-by-case. Final Fight with a save feature is ridiculous. Mega Man (the original doesn't have passwords) is not.
"and any game with Passwords would be much better to feature saves instead, so you don't go crazy inputting in those codes."
Some games benefit from having passwords though. Some have unique passwords that provide secrets not obtainable any other way and with passwords you can jump ahead a level if you're stuck or something. I think it would cool if there was a password book built into the VC so that you can store your passwords. When a game gives you a password you can choose to store it in the password book and then load passwords from the book without having to enter them in. You can enter a description of the password too and some games could automatically provide one (ie: "Level 5" or a description of your status in Metroid). They would have to add code to the games themselves to use this feature but it would effectively allow you to save while keeping the classic feel of the passwords.
Post by: KDR_11k on September 12, 2006, 11:10:48 PM
