Community Forums => General Chat => Topic started by: EasyCure on June 09, 2006, 05:33:11 PM
Title: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: EasyCure on June 09, 2006, 05:33:11 PM
found this link on IGN. its a survey being conducted to find out about what homosexual gamers like or dislike about the industry, for the most part. also touches on any prejudice homosexual gamers might feel within the industry. thought it would be interesting to post, heres the link: "www.gamersurvey.org"
Title: RE:(i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: EasyCure on June 09, 2006, 05:34:57 PM
i didnt realize that "g*y" was a no no on the forums. i wasn't using it in a negative way, but i understand why i cant post the word. so yeah, check out what is being called the g*ymer survey if you like
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 09, 2006, 06:46:57 PM
From IGN:
Quote "People had talked about being gay and being a gamer, but nobody had asked them to unify those two elements and people were excited about that," Rockwood told In Newsweekly. "Some people were hesitant though, because they didn't want to be stereotyped having games that were developed to be ridiculous toward the community. They wanted both sides to be taken seriously and if there was stereotypical content it would trivialize both identities of being gay and a gamer."
Title: RE:(i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: EasyCure on June 09, 2006, 06:58:46 PM
what the hell mine didnt work!? BLAH i say, BLAH!
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 09, 2006, 07:30:24 PM
you forgot the colon...
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Infernal Monkey on June 10, 2006, 02:39:02 AM
Quote 33. The term “gaymer” is often used to describe homosexual video gamers.
.. Is it? I've never heard of it before this survey.
Quote 35. Do you think homosexual video gamers are motivated to play video games for different reasons than straight gamers?
.. What?
Quote 36. Increasing numbers of homosexual people are taking an interest in video game culture. How do you feel about this?
..... What?
Quote 46. To what degree would you like to see homosexual content in the following gaming genres? - Classic/Retro games - Children’s - Puzzles/Quizzes
Haha yes. No wait. What?
Quote 64. How frequently do you write back-stories for your characters?
Oh dear.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: KDR_11k on June 10, 2006, 07:02:13 AM
Ahahaha D&D Nerds FTW!
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Bill Aurion on June 10, 2006, 07:11:10 AM
Quote 35. Do you think homosexual video gamers are motivated to play video games for different reasons than straight gamers?
Hahahaha, this "survey" is so unbelievably biased...Sup, homosexual gamers, according to this survey you are a completely different species!
Quote 36. Increasing numbers of homosexual people are taking an interest in video game culture. How do you feel about this?
Yep, this proves it...What a load of crap...
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 10, 2006, 09:16:11 PM
Oh, yeah, the survey sucks. What they should've done was put a few questions about sexual orientation in with a regular gaming survey. This survey is deisgned from the ground up to try to persuade publishers to make gay-themed games, whatever those might be.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: mantidor on June 10, 2006, 09:54:16 PM
Im pretty interested to the results of this survey, if anything those questions were put there to rate the homophobia in the gaming community and compare it with other groups.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 10, 2006, 10:18:24 PM
...oh, now that would be interesting.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Mario on June 11, 2006, 04:54:32 AM
Thanks a lot World of Warcraft
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Deguello on June 11, 2006, 05:51:48 PM
Question 49 is awful.
"49. Which of the following forms of homophobia have you seen in the gaming community, either online or off? (Check all that apply.)
Refusal of game designers to include well-developed (homosexual) characters."
Has this ever actually happened? I mean has anybody ever ran Miyamoto Or Will Wright down and asked them why they never put homosexual people in their games, and then called them something nasty after they say "no?" I sense a false dichotomy. For example, I have never given blood in my life, however that does not mean that I refuse to give blood. I have never given a kidney to a dying relative but that doesn't mean I refuse to.
To begin with, the first accomplishment that needs to be done before homosexual characters ever leap into Videogames in a big way is to de-sexualize homosexuality. Already you are seeing a problem, right? Homo"sexual".
One method would be to totally remove all annotations, connotations, and other such -notations of sexuality from the game. This, however, leaves a huge problem. Without any indication of homosexual activity, it would be just as easily be assumed that the character is heterosexual. Whenever sexuality is not brought up, almost all game characters and heck, almost all REAL people for that matter, are automatically assumed to be heterosexual. This is nothing that is unfair, heterosexuality is at the very least 90% of the Earth population, depending to what estimate you are looking at. So 9 times out of 10 the assumption is correct. Thus, the homosexuality of characters is something that requires "proof."
So then, the only ways to "prove" the homosexual nature of characters is to either have them perform homosexual acts in the game, or (avoiding the AO Rating that would accompany the former) simply label them as such. But unfortunately, the very label is bringing up sexuality and fails to adequately de-sexualize it. Or, another method is to include homosexual characters, but have them behave in stereotypical ways. (once again, "proof") But that won't solve anything either.
This is quite a conundrum, isn't it?
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 11, 2006, 09:38:32 PM
I agree that game designers "refusing" to put homosexual characters in games isn't a sign of homophobia. But I disagree about there not being ways to have gay characters in a game without there being any sex.
A good example, if you'll remember that kid's show on PBS that the government asked not be shown because it featured a kid with two mothers.
...In other words, you could show homosexual couples where appropriate.
There are plenty of hetorosexual couplings in games - having some homosexual ones wouldn't really be any different. Have Viewtiful Joe save his boyfriend, Fred, in the next game. In Halo 3, have Master Chief turn down a woman who's hitting on him by replying, "I don't swing that way."
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Mario on June 11, 2006, 10:45:04 PM
Developers shouldn't have to think of that. Homosexuals need to accept that they are in the minority and game companies would just rather not risk getting involved considering the demographic of most games nowdays, mostly aimed towards the cool kids who are going to stay the hell away from anything slightly homosexual that isn't Final Fantasy related.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 11, 2006, 10:48:01 PM
Quote Homosexuals need to accept that they are in the minority and game companies would just rather not risk getting involved considering the demographic of most games nowdays, mostly aimed towards the cool kids who are going to stay the hell away from anything slightly homosexual
So, homosexuals should just accept prejudice, is what you're saying?
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Bill Aurion on June 12, 2006, 04:39:36 AM
The whole "sexual" issue is pretty retarded...Any game that has a love story or innuendo can be considered "sexual" and that has never been challenged in the past...What's the difference between a male character hitting on a female character and a male character hitting on a male character? ABSOLUTELY...NOTHING...
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: mantidor on June 12, 2006, 05:08:34 AM
I think that that question wasn't worded very well, the question makes it look like they are demanding game designers to put homosexual characters just for the sake of it, but the way I interpreted it, the question was asking that if you have ever found a homosexual character in a video game that if he/she has been properly portrayed or if it was an exaggerated and stereotypical way of showing the character.
Of course there are ways of portraying homosexual characters, and wandering put some good examples, but what Mario says is very true. I wished the survey had some questions about sexism as well, about how women are really portrayed and percieved in the gaming comunity, as well as women gamers, because its apparent from my experience that the gaming comunity is the most troglodyte and sexist Ive found, worth of an ultra-conservative middle east country... but maybe it isnt that bad.
It really should be irrelevant though, left handed people are a minority, but that isnt a problem or a big deal, and Link being left handed isn't shocking or a scandal, and certainly doesn't stop the game from selling, the same should happen with g ay characters, but thats sadly not the world we are living in.
Title: RE:(i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: vudu on June 12, 2006, 09:07:27 AM
Quote Originally posted by: wandering
Quote Homosexuals need to accept that they are in the minority and game companies would just rather not risk getting involved considering the demographic of most games nowdays, mostly aimed towards the cool kids who are going to stay the hell away from anything slightly homosexual
So, homosexuals should just accept prejudice, is what you're saying?
I don't think that's what he was saying at all. He was saying that homosexuals are in the minority of gamers and therefore you won't see a lot of them. Same reason why you don't see (a lot) of female main characters (that aren't wearing metal bikinis). Blacks are the same way--how many main characters can you think of that are black? (San Andreas doesn't count; in fact, that probably counts for -1.) How about midgets? I haven't played enough games staring midgets (pre-Super Mushroom Mario doesn't count). How about married men. Why isn't Mario married? If he were married more married men (and women) would play video games.
Title: RE:(i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Deguello on June 12, 2006, 09:24:13 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Bill Aurion The whole "sexual" issue is pretty retarded...Any game that has a love story or innuendo can be considered "sexual" and that has never been challenged in the past...What's the difference between a male character hitting on a female character and a male character hitting on a male character? ABSOLUTELY...NOTHING...
I already talked about doing this. FOR EXAMPLE:
This is an example of a non-sexualized videogame. Zelda (DESPITE Bill's claims of "innuendo") is quite non-sexual. I'll use the first game in the series. First, the hero is not solely driven to rescue Princess Zelda, nor even primarily driven to do so. The main object is to save Hyrule because it is being destroyed. When this is completed, Zelda says "thanks a lot, you are the hero of Hyrule, call you when we need you." Credits roll. All sexual verbage and whatever is stricty avoided as well as quasi-sexual imagery. Link is assumed to be heterosexual. While there is no "proof," but there does not HAVE to be any as the assumption is at least 90% accurate. Metroid even more so. Samus is 100% totally focused on the job, no time for anything else, and no opportunity either. She is assumed to be heterosexual, too. Again 90%. This is the norm, accepted without discussion or debate, automatically.
Now an exampled of a sexualized game. Here is Mario, he quests, usually and primarily, to save Princess Peach. The reason FOR Mario's quest is usually Peach Herself. Mario seems to not care much about the total liberation of the Mushroom Kingdom, as he is quite fond of skipping whole worlds in order to reach Bowser's Castle quicker and slap him on the noggin and toss him into lava. After this, Peach routinely gives Mario a peck on the nose or cheek and the fan-artists take over from there. Here, there is, of course, the assumption that Mario is heterosexual, but now there is "proof." However this is only lightly displayed in the game itself, all people do not necessarily believe it goes further than just a gratuitous kiss, and it is the norm across all cultures. Now replace all the "Princess Peach"'s in the previous paragraph with "Donkey Kong" and you'll see a problem. Because of the "deviancy" (and by deviancy I mean just the difference to the accepted norm) of the act of Donkey Kong pressing ape lips on Mario's face, the train of thought tends to go much further than that (fan-artists unfortunately take over from HERE, too)
To successfully make a homosexual game character de-sexualized they need to avoid Mario's method at all costs. Zelda is good, Metroid is better. Bascially do not bring it up, ever. HOWEVER, like I said before, without bringing up ANY sexuality whatsoever, there will be the 90% assumption. This results in a mis-label and destroys the intent. There must be proof to the minority, and that proof is either having the guy pop butts in the game, having somebody SAY "This guy pops butts," or simply just saying the man is homosexual in the manual or something. But right there sexuality is brought up again. This is a definite "chicken or the egg" problem.
Furthermore it is quite illogcial to specifically go after the at most 10% hoomosexual dollar at the expense of the rest of the at least 90% heteresexual dollar. I mean it's not like their children will appreciate the progressive thinking of some game companies and also spend their dollars there, too. They won't have any children. Their adopted children might, but they might not be homosexual themselves. Even if the percentages were equal it still would not be wise to go after the homosexual dollar. After one generation, all of the 50% of homosexual consumers will be gone for good, while the 50% heterosexual consumers will have children and will enter the market soon enough.
My brain hurts.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2006, 09:48:04 AM
Are there people out there that actually would not buy a game because a minorty group wasn't well represented? You should buy games because they're fun, right? If you're busy looking for certain demographics to be represented in the game then I wonder why you're playing games in the first place.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: TMW on June 12, 2006, 10:48:13 AM
Leon was totally g to the ay. He was all hot on Luis and turned down Ashley's offer of "overtime".
But seriously, this survey is going at it from entirely the wrong angle, and sounds like more like flamebait than any serious attempt at gauging homosexual opinions on videogames.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: couchmonkey on June 12, 2006, 12:35:27 PM
If the game isn't like, "Kill all the [insert slang term for homosexual here]", then it's not anti-gay. I find this sort of thing interesting but I agree with Bill on how the treatment makes it feel like homosexuals are this really special group that isn't at all like "normal" heterosexual people.
Title: RE:(i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 12, 2006, 08:04:15 PM
Quote Originally posted by: vudu
Quote Originally posted by: wandering
Quote Homosexuals need to accept that they are in the minority and game companies would just rather not risk getting involved considering the demographic of most games nowdays, mostly aimed towards the cool kids who are going to stay the hell away from anything slightly homosexual
So, homosexuals should just accept prejudice, is what you're saying?
I don't think that's what he was saying at all. He was saying that homosexuals are in the minority of gamers and therefore you won't see a lot of them. Same reason why you don't see (a lot) of female main characters (that aren't wearing metal bikinis). Blacks are the same way--how many main characters can you think of that are black? (San Andreas doesn't count; in fact, that probably counts for -1.) How about midgets? I haven't played enough games staring midgets (pre-Super Mushroom Mario doesn't count). How about married men. Why isn't Mario married? If he were married more married men (and women) would play video games.
Well, this needs to change! Hopefully the Wii will at least help with the female issue.
Quote Originally posted by: Deguello Furthermore it is quite illogcial to specifically go after the at most 10% hoomosexual dollar at the expense of the rest of the at least 90% heterosexual dollar.
First of all, try telling the democrats that courting minorities is pointless.
Second of all, you're assuming that a game featuring a gay character or relationship would somehow come at the expense of the majority of heterosexual buyers. You act like the majority of people are prejudiced, like the majority of people don't know people who are gay.
...This is the same insane reasoning that lead movie studios to assume that white audiences would never pay to see a film with a black star...and then, when they did start paying to see films with black stars, to assume that was only because those films had white sidekicks. The same kind of reasoning that has lead Warner Bros. to decide to, in the upcomming Ender's Game movie, change the plot by making the majority of the characters white...because anything else would scare away white audiences.
This is so frustrating because this kind of prejudice, or rather, assumption of prejudice, actually helps prejudice to fester.
Quote Originally posted by: Deguello There must be proof to the minority, and that proof is either having the guy pop butts in the game, having somebody SAY "This guy pops butts," or simply just saying the man is homosexual in the manual or something. But right there sexuality is brought up again. This is a definite "chicken or the egg" problem.
Of course having gay charachters in Nintendo videogames wouldn't work. You're ignoring the fact that there are openly hetrosexual relationships in a heck of a lot of games today.
Homosexuality is a part of life. As such, there's no reason why it shouldn't be expressed in art, if videogames can be considered that.
Quote Originally posted by: Ian Sane If you're busy looking for certain demographics to be represented in the game then I wonder why you're playing games in the first place.
That's easy for you to say! You're a white, heterosexual male, and most games are targeted directly to your tastes. ....except, of course, Nintendo's recent "non-gamer" games, but you like those, right?
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: King of Twitch on June 13, 2006, 12:42:18 AM
Now you're perpetuating your own myth that Ian's tastes are being catered to just because he's a white male? Are you saying white people can't enjoy art involving people with different colored epidermis or gender?
Besides, videogames are made in white countries by probably male programmers so what do you expect. We all make Mario in our own image.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Ian Sane on June 13, 2006, 07:11:15 AM
"That's easy for you to say! You're a white, heterosexual male, and most games are targeted directly to your tastes."
Bullsh!t. Very little of any form of popular entertainment is targetted towards my tastes. Just knowing my skin colour, gender, and sexuality isn't enough to determine what I like.
Title: RE:(i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 13, 2006, 12:33:53 PM
I always make an ass of myself in these sorts of discussions.
What I should have said is that, as a white, heterosexual, male, it's easy for Ian to say that people shouldn't look for representations of their own race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and whatever. It's easy for him to say that they should just have fun... because he is fairly well represented in video games.
...It's not that a white person couldn't enjoy a game starring a black person, or vice versa. It's just that when you are never represented, I imagine you would tend to want to be. If you're gay, that's a pretty signifigant part of your life. And then to go and play games where you do nothing but save your in-game girlfriend, where all the npcs are straight, etc...you'd have to want some sort of at least respectful acknoledgement of homosexuality, in videogames, once in a while.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: Ian Sane on June 13, 2006, 01:12:27 PM
"What I should have said is that, as a white, heterosexual, male, it's easy for Ian to say that people shouldn't look for representations of their own race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and whatever. It's easy for him to say that they should just have fun... because he is fairly well represented in video games."
Okay. That makes a lot more sense. Maybe that sort of thing just isn't so noticable to me. I will say that if I watch a show like the Cosby Show or Fresh Prince of Bel-Air (old examples I know, but I don't watch much TV anymore) I don't think "man there aren't many white people on this show."
Of course gender and skin colour are easy things to spot. Those are physical characteristics so you can assume that a character that looks like a woman is a woman 99% of the time or an Asian person is Asian. You can't say that for sure with sexual orientation. Yeah if a guy is talking about a girl he's interested in or he has a girlfriend or wife or children in the game you can assume he's hetrosexual (though he could be bi or in the closet). If not though you don't know really. As Deguello mentioned how do you establish someone as a minority when it's not something that can be recognized instantly at first sight?
I think if any group is being underrepresented then ideally people that fit in that group should take the initiative. A good game designer makes a game that he likes and thinks others would have fun with. A lot of himself is going into it. Games are considered very male oriented because men make most games. Once someone stops and consciously thinks about what demographics he has to include then I think he's going to lose track of making a great game based on what he wants to play. It also seems forced. If you think "well I've got to include this group" then you're acknowledging that that group is somehow different or exceptional. That's what I've always disliked about things like that. If something truly doesn't matter then you shouldn't even notice if it's there or not.
The survery suggest that there's some significant difference between "gaymers" and everyone else. Is there? Should there be? If a game's fun it's fun.
Title: RE: (i cant put this word in my post) survey
Post by: wandering on June 14, 2006, 12:54:21 AM
Quote I think if any group is being underrepresented then ideally people that fit in that group should take the initiative. A good game designer makes a game that he likes and thinks others would have fun with. A lot of himself is going into it. Games are considered very male oriented because men make most games. Once someone stops and consciously thinks about what demographics he has to include then I think he's going to lose track of making a great game based on what he wants to play. It also seems forced. If you think "well I've got to include this group" then you're acknowledging that that group is somehow different or exceptional. That's what I've always disliked about things like that. If something truly doesn't matter then you shouldn't even notice if it's there or not.
I agree. The trouble is, the people with the money make all of the decisions, and those decisions are based around what sells. If a game designer wants to make a game with a gay main character, he could very well be told that he couldn't do that. Are things like this survey the best way to solve this? I have no idea.
