Post by: Artimus on May 31, 2006, 07:42:51 AM
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=140731
(found@GoNintendo)
Not sure to laugh or cry. My response to the bolded comment: Of course not, you were too busy adding analog sticks.
Post by: mantidor on May 31, 2006, 07:45:32 AM
He should have really just shut up about it, I wish the interviewer would have said "but what about Star Fox for the snes?"
Post by: JonLeung on May 31, 2006, 07:48:21 AM
I figure the Sega 32X with its Virtua Fighter must've been around the same time.
Arcade and computer games had 3D earlier (and if you count vector-ish 3D, it's been around much earlier).
And the PlayStation was originally the Super NES Play Station which was going to be Nintendo's response (of sorts) to the Sega CD. Nintendo and Sony kinda worked together on that one.
...
Wow, so many ways to show that Sony never "invented" 3D.
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 31, 2006, 07:55:12 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 31, 2006, 07:56:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
And the PlayStation was originally the Super NES Play Station which was going to be Nintendo's response (of sorts) to the Sega CD. Nintendo and Sony kinda worked together on that one.
...
Wow, so many ways to show that Sony never "invented" 3D.
I was gonna say the same thing, only differently
.Nintendo and Sony developed Playstation together, then when Nintendo backed out, Sony went and released the unit anyway w/o Nintendo. So if anything Sony stole Nintendo's knowledge, expertise and vision to help build a console that was capable of 3-D graphics.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 31, 2006, 08:25:24 AM
Sony initially revealed a PS3 with no motion control. Later Nintendo revealed their console with motion control. Then at E3 suddenly the PS3 now has motion control too, and it's a pretty half-assed implimentation of it to boot. That kind of suggests that they stole the idea. The timing of the PS3 suddenly having motion control after Nintendo revealing the remote is a little too coincidental to just be Sony coming up with a similar idea accidentally.
Post by: Athrun Zala on May 31, 2006, 09:38:58 AM
interesting that the only original thing he could think of was 3D graphics, yet... if I recall correctly, the first 3D console game was Battlezone for the Atari 2600 (I don't know if it's "real-time 3D"..)
in any case, Nintendo beat them to it, as StarFox for the SNES was released in 1993.....oh look! one year before the PSX....
obviously, I have to add the fact that maybe the PSX was the first 3D console, but it didn't have a proper way to control things in 3D......oops! beaten by Nintendo again?
one wonders.....
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 31, 2006, 09:47:12 AM
Post by: JonLeung on May 31, 2006, 10:11:04 AM
Maybe because it hasn't changed much from the PSX/PS2 Dual Shock, it just looks like someone doing the whole silly "moving the controller" thing that a lot of people naturally do. But the Wii controller is more naturally made for moving and pointing with. I could see the PS3's motion thing only good for tilting and flying. It wouldn't work at all for two-handed games (boxing, drumming), one-handed games (conducting), sports games (holding it like a bat, club, stick, etc.) or FPSes (it doesn't feel like a gun). Maybe they'll have a racing game on the PS3 where it works like a steering wheel (like a version of "Riiiiiidge Raaaacer", perhaps), but that's about all you can really do effectively with a motion-sensitive controller where you need to have two hands laterally on it.
Post by: Khushrenada on May 31, 2006, 10:50:53 AM
"If you play a platform or soccer game now, you move the controller around. Now for the first time we can use both the primary input, executed by the analog sticks, and at the same time use the movements that the player makes as a secondary input. That is an important advantage, which only the PlayStation controller has."
Ohhh. Wrong again Phil. Apparently, he has forgotten that the nunchuk also has motion sensing. So, in other words, Nintendo also has the primary input excuted by an analog stick or d-pad and at the same time can use the movements that the player makes as a secondary input.
Post by: couchmonkey on May 31, 2006, 10:54:06 AM
I'm actually willing to believe Sony had been experimenting with motion control, but I'm not convinced the company would have included motion control if it weren't for Nintendo.
Edit: Khushrenada - I think he's referring to the second analog stick as being the thing Nintendo doesn't have, but it's still a silly comment, because Nintendo is showing us how the second stick isn't really necessary anymore.
Post by: Strell on May 31, 2006, 11:12:25 AM
2. Warhawk guys> "Yea, we had 10 days to implement motion control." Yep. But Sony really had it years ago. Years ago.
3. Obligatory tie-in to PS3 E3 Conference: WELL OF COURSE SONY INVENTED 3D. DON'T YOU REMEMBER WHEN PEOPLE THOUGHT GRAN TURISMO WAS REAL BACK IN THE DAY? 'CUZ BACK THEN THE UNIVERSE WAS TWO DIMENSIONAL ONLY.
.....RIIIIIIIIIIDGE RACER!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 31, 2006, 11:44:24 AM
Post by: JonLeung on May 31, 2006, 11:50:33 AM
Aiming. Batting. Boxing. Casting. Conducting. Drumming. Fishing. Pointing. Shooting. Slashing. Swinging.
Yeah, try to do THOSE with a Dual Shock (Dual Shake?) controller.
Because the Wii controller is one-handed and like a handle or a gun, it works a lot better. Those won't be natural AT ALL with the PS3 controller, and actually looks quite silly. For the image-conscious and insecure casual gamers, that's not going to sell.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 31, 2006, 12:39:12 PM
Well there's no doubt that for motion control Nintendo's design is MUCH better. But Sony could still say "yeah but [popular game series] won't work on the Wii because there's not enough buttons." They can play up the fact that all your favourite game series just wouldn't be playable if it didn't use the "industry standard" Dualshock design that everyone apparently loves. There are certainly better angles for Sony execs to take then "well Nintendo stole 3D!"
Post by: The Omen on May 31, 2006, 12:48:49 PM
They can feel the heat, and by god they are reacting like they lost already. And Harrison is the worst of the bunch...instead of ignoring Nintendo, and the entire controller issue completely, he goes completely in the opposite direction, defending the new tech. Unbelievable.
Post by: TrueNerd on May 31, 2006, 04:03:34 PM
Also, someone should ask Phil Harrison why Super Mario 64 is considered the revolutionary 3D game when the PSX had a two year head start on the N64.
Post by: King of Twitch on May 31, 2006, 04:22:47 PM
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on May 31, 2006, 04:39:43 PM
Quote
Well there's no doubt that for motion control Nintendo's design is MUCH better. But Sony could still say "yeah but [popular game series] won't work on the Wii because there's not enough buttons." They can play up the fact that all your favourite game series just wouldn't be playable if it didn't use the "industry standard" Dualshock design that everyone apparently loves. There are certainly better angles for Sony execs to take then "well Nintendo stole 3D!"
Well Ian of all dev houses EA proved that traditional games can work on the Wii controller case and point Madden 07 for Wii. And if the developer that argubably is the leader of "safe" and sequelitus(sp?) can prove that a game can work on the Wii controller than any developer with a creative mind can incorporate the Wii controller in "insert game title here" or people can basically use the classic Wii remote if they want something like a 2D fighter.
Post by: nemo_83 on June 01, 2006, 12:48:08 AM
Post by: ruby_onix on June 01, 2006, 01:24:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
And the PlayStation was originally the Super NES Play Station which was going to be Nintendo's response (of sorts) to the Sega CD. Nintendo and Sony kinda worked together on that one.
...
Wow, so many ways to show that Sony never "invented" 3D.
I was gonna say the same thing, only differently
Nintendo and Sony developed Playstation together, then when Nintendo backed out, Sony went and released the unit anyway w/o Nintendo. So if anything Sony stole Nintendo's knowledge, expertise and vision to help build a console that was capable of 3-D graphics.
Actually, Sony got the rights to make Super Nintendo hardware when they signed up to make the SNES's sound chip (sort of like how Panasonic got the rights to make the GameCube-based Q). Then Sony made the original SNES-based "Play Station" entirely on their own. Nintendo considered this to be a threat and a betrayal, because Sony was going to grab all the royalties on their CD-based SNES games, and refused to negotiate on the matter.
So Nintendo hooked up with Phillips and made the CD-i-compatible "SNES CD" to battle the Play Station (which Sony considered a backstabbing). Since a split SNES CD market would have no winners, there was a standoff until Sony backed down, and went off to make the entirely-new (aside from some controller similarities) PlayStation-X, and then Nintendo eventually noticed that the CD-i sucked, and that Project Reality was the future, so they canned the SNES CD.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 01, 2006, 03:24:55 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 01, 2006, 05:51:18 AM
QuoteI didn't know the bolded part, I thought they worked on it together until Sony worked through some loophole that Nintendo didn't like(apparently dealing with software)
Originally posted by: ruby_onix
Actually, Sony got the rights to make Super Nintendo hardware when they signed up to make the SNES's sound chip (sort of like how Panasonic got the rights to make the GameCube-based Q). Then Sony made the original SNES-based "Play Station" entirely on their own. Nintendo considered this to be a threat and a betrayal, because Sony was going to grab all the royalties on their CD-based SNES games, and refused to negotiate on the matter.
So Nintendo hooked up with Phillips and made the CD-i-compatible "SNES CD" to battle the Play Station (which Sony considered a backstabbing). Since a split SNES CD market would have no winners, there was a standoff until Sony backed down, and went off to make the entirely-new (aside from some controller similarities) PlayStation-X, and then Nintendo eventually noticed that the CD-i sucked, and that Project Reality was the future, so they canned the SNES CD.
Well either way Sony made thier PSX based on the "Play Station" for SNES, and even basically cipied the controller. Their "Play Station" wouldn't exist w/o Nintendo and that was the point. But thanx for clarifying the details.
Post by: Athrun Zala on June 01, 2006, 07:35:07 AM
Post by: Khushrenada on June 01, 2006, 11:43:00 AM
"On August 23, 1993, Nintendo officially announced its partnership with Silicon Graphics (SGI) to create a 3D, 64-bit Nintendo gaming console."
So Nintendo announced that their next console would be 3D in 1993. Sony announced their console would be 3D in 1994. That's why Sony couldn't say that Nintendo stole their idea.
Post by: ruby_onix on June 01, 2006, 01:33:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1
I didn't know the bolded part, I thought they worked on it together until Sony worked through some loophole that Nintendo didn't like(apparently dealing with software)
There's a lot of misinformation out there about the SNES CD. When the two competing systems were both unveiled, reporters actually thought they were both the same unit, and they even combined the specs.
The N-Sider report above mentions the Nintendo/Phillips/Sony partnership that was eventually reached, and that Nintendo eventually canned the SNES CD a year later, but it fails to mention that Sony ripped up their contract and pulled out of the Nintendo/Phillips/Sony partnership one month into it (probably just long enough to get a look at the CD-i SNES CD's design specs). Just read Game Over (they might have it at your local library). That's the biggest source of reliable SNES CD info (and Nintendo info in general). Just about everything else is a derivative.
Sony had access to every scrap of documentation on the SNES, but Nintendo had no input into the original Play Station. Nintendo had no idea what Sony was even up to, until Sony started going after traditional Nintendo-supporting third parties (Square's Seiken Densetsu 3/Secret of Mana 2 and one of the Romancing SaGa games were originally made for Sony's version of the SNES CD, and had to be downgraded to fit on SNES carts), and one of those third parties ratted Sony out and told Nintendo what they were trying to do.
Post by: Hocotate on June 01, 2006, 02:37:36 PM
Post by: wandering on June 01, 2006, 11:35:37 PM
Quote
Wow, so many ways to show that Sony never "invented" 3D.
I don't think he was trying to say Sony did...
Quote
If Phil wanted to point out an advantage of the PS3 controller a better approach would be to draw attention to the fact that not only does it have motion control but it also retains the existing functionality of past controllers, thus ensuring that the existing model for games is still 100% compatible.
I think that's what he was trying to get at with the "industry-standard controller" comment.
Quote
The best part of all of this is the fact that Nintendo has been taking the high road. All they've been saying is "Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery." It's beautiful.
"Historically we're always developing new things. We know Sony have had a lot of issues with their rumble feature and they've had to withdraw it - because they didn't innovate, they copied. With Nintendo, I'm trying to think of anything we've copied... but I can't." - David Yarnton
Post by: JonLeung on June 02, 2006, 04:46:54 AM
But then again I never tried the Game Boy Camera, so I don't know what's that like. And I recall Nintendo had this "Stage Debut" game that did involve a camera. If that GameCube camera peripheral DID come out, it would be yet another thing Sony "borrowed".
Heck, maybe they got the idea from that anyway.
I thought I heard that there was a dog-raising game coming out for the PSP (though not by any branch of Sony themselves, I think...) and also Sony's own version of a brain-training game. Sheesh. Without a touch screen, they'll likely be crappy.
Not only do they copy ideas, they also can't copy them well.
Post by: Frozen Atlantic on June 02, 2006, 05:49:07 AM
Post by: EasyCure on June 02, 2006, 05:53:27 AM
Post by: JonLeung on June 02, 2006, 09:37:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hocotate
Sony just fails hard no matter how you look at it :p I lol'd after reading the article.... Its almost as if Sony is trying to lose this generation >_<
OMG MAYBE IT'S A CONSPIRACY.
Maybe some super secret uber video game company owns both Sony AND Nintendo (and maybe Microsoft and others). Those other company names like "Sony" and "Nintendo" are just fronts! And they make all this money when console wars rage up, maintaining the hype of video games and all that. After the domination of the PlayStations these past couple generations, maybe this uber game company has decided that it's time for "Sony" to take the fall and give "Nintendo" the spotlight again. And though "Nintendo"'s Wii is doing well, maybe they feel it won't kill "Sony"'s momentum fast enough, so they get people like Phil Harrison who supposedly work for "Sony" to say such blatantly stupid things until the PS3 bombs.
Unlikely?
Well, I just wonder how likely it is that all the Sony execs seem so deaf to what people have been saying lately about them. Aren't any of them gamers themselves? Come on!
If this keeps up, deliberate stupidity will seem more likely than all this silliness by mere chance.
EDIT: Okay, maybe that's a little harsh but it's like they're on top of the world with their PS2 and they've gotten complacent about it and don't seem to notice that they have the most to lose. They think they can keep the momentum going - and honestly, they do have some - but in cases like this, you have to wonder if they realize that they'd be better off not saying anything since each time they do it kills their momentum some more.
Post by: IceCold on June 02, 2006, 12:06:40 PM
QuoteThe Brain Training game already came out - it was made by SEGA, I think. And it actually did pretty well for a PSP game; it was probably bought by the same people wishing they had a DS..
and also Sony's own version of a brain-training game. Sheesh. Without a touch screen, they'll likely be crappy.
