Post by: Wackman on May 20, 2006, 08:25:23 AM
Will the Europeen/Pal Wii console support a component cable? The europeen Gamecube doesn't. They have the rgb scart cable, wich is fine on a normal television. But for really good progressive scan display, you'll need a component cable so you can play the game at 480p.
Post by: The Omen on May 20, 2006, 08:38:44 AM
Post by: mantidor on May 20, 2006, 09:23:22 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 20, 2006, 09:43:46 AM
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Originally posted by: mantidor
The say its going to be standard, and theres no longer two different outputs like the GC, so Ill say that it might even be included with the console from the start.
I know, but i'd like to have this confirmed for the Pal wii. For some reason they dleft this fuction out on the gamecube (probably cause there weren't that many televisions with component input).
I also think that component will be supported but i'm just trying to make sure...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 20, 2006, 11:46:47 AM
I imagine, if p.scan and interlaced connections are included in the same cable, NTSC land would get a component + S-Video/AV cable, while PAL land would get a component + RGB Scart cable.
But will Nintendo %&$@ us again and go the cheap way with a flimsy default patch cable?
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 20, 2006, 06:11:07 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on May 20, 2006, 08:45:30 PM
Post by: Wackman on May 21, 2006, 02:07:52 AM
The games supported it, But the Pal Gamecube concole didn't support progressive scan. There is no Component cable functionality......That only works on cubes in japan and the US.
Post by: mantidor on May 21, 2006, 07:25:03 AM
Its like they realy didnt like progressive scan, and went trough all the trouble to make it as unaccesible as possible while still offering it as an "option".
Post by: KDR_11k on May 21, 2006, 07:30:56 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 21, 2006, 07:49:22 AM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Well, it had the port but there was no cable for it.
It had the port, you could buy/ import the cable, but the PAL Cube actually didn't support it. REALLY!
Post by: KDR_11k on May 21, 2006, 08:48:23 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 21, 2006, 12:01:34 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 21, 2006, 12:47:33 PM
Post by: thejeek on May 22, 2006, 06:01:42 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 22, 2006, 12:16:31 PM
And with the World Championship Soccer in June, the HD televisions will sell like hot cakes. I have a projector that supports HDMI and Component. I really want to play the Wii games the best way possible..
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 22, 2006, 04:45:39 PM
It seems to be more of a matter of time and marketing/LYING to the public that they need HD and simply having an HD monitor automatically grants them HD content.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 23, 2006, 01:44:36 AM
If you don't consider "physical resolution of at least 1280x720" a requirement for HD, that is.
I've got a CRT with component connections on my other desk, it's a computer monitor. Can't they push component through SCART? The Wii should have a digital/computer plug (HDMI, DVI, VGA, whichever you prefer), of course.
Post by: thejeek on May 23, 2006, 04:15:41 AM
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Can't they push component through SCART?
Yeah - sorry that's what I meant - SCART is capable of carrying a component signal (i.e. RGB) but it's not what people usually mean when they say a component cable or component inputs. Also, I dunno if SCART is quite the same quality or can handle the same bandwidth as proper component cables - the individual wires in SCART are much thinner and the connector isn't so substantial.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 23, 2006, 09:17:31 AM
Post by: thejeek on May 23, 2006, 11:54:24 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 23, 2006, 12:19:50 PM
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Originally posted by: thejeek
SCART can certainly carry RGB, and Wikipedia confirms it. Do you mean that component video is YPrPb?
Scart can carry rgb (RGB scart) but can't carry component (YPrPb). Scart RGB contains the separate informations for the red, green, and blue as separate channels.
Component video YPrPb (YUV) consists of three signals. The first is the luminance signal, which indicates brightness or black and white information that is contained in the original RGB signal. Monochrome signals contain only intensity luminance information, also called luma. It is referred to as the Y component. The apostrophe indicates that the component is gamma corrected.
The second and third signals are called 'color difference' signals which indicate how much blue and red there is relative to luminance. The blue component is B-Y and the red component is R-Y. The color difference signals are mathematical derivatives of the RGB signal.
Each of the three channels R, G and B include the color signal and the luminance information. Viewing any of the three channels separately, a black and white image is visible, because the Y information is included in all three channels. This is a wast of bandwidth, because it is actually three times the same signal.
By using just a channel for the luminance information and two channels for the color information, bandwidth can be saved by carrying the same information. (component/YPrPb).
Post by: thejeek on May 23, 2006, 12:31:24 PM
I'm suprised to find it's YPrPb instead of RGB for component cables - I thought color spaces encoded as separate luminance and chroma is only useful for saving bandwith if you subsequently compress the signal by throwing away some of the chroma. How is this a benefit for a high bandwidth connection like HDTV over component cables (as opposed to analog broadcast or digital compression)?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 23, 2006, 02:18:13 PM
What's stupid about component cabling is the fact someone decided to label the cables with the colors "Red-Green-Blue".
CONFUSION. INSANITY.
Post by: Wackman on May 23, 2006, 02:46:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
What matters is Japan/US NTSC is built on YUV color, so YPrPb/component is dominant. And the vast majority of DVD video is stored in YV12, which conveniently passes thru YPrPb. DV format is also YV12. YUV is lovely becuz it's compresses quickly digitally; it gives me great results for my video captures.
What's stupid about component cabling is the fact someone decided to label the cables with the colors "Red-Green-Blue".
CONFUSION. INSANITY.
exactly! People think that the component cables are R (red), G (green) and B (blue), but they aren't. It's understandible though that they make that assumption.
Post by: thejeek on May 23, 2006, 10:28:53 PM
This does mean that we WILL need different Wii video output here in the UK versus the US though because the vast majority of older and cheaper TVs here support only composite and either S-Video or RGB input. HD TVs may well support YPrPb component input but HD TVs are still a rarity here as there is no real broadcast service for it yet (although Sky satellite and NTL/Telewest cable are in the process of rolling out HD)
Post by: Wackman on May 23, 2006, 11:51:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeek
Ahhhh. How incredibly mad! That certainly caught me out.
This does mean that we WILL need different Wii video output here in the UK versus the US though because the vast majority of older and cheaper TVs here support only composite and either S-Video or RGB input. HD TVs may well support YPrPb component input but HD TVs are still a rarity here as there is no real broadcast service for it yet (although Sky satellite and NTL/Telewest cable are in the process of rolling out HD)
Exactly!. Now, as long as the Wii supports RGB Scart and Component at the same time, no problemo. But if the Pal Wii only supports RGB Scart,...... then no progressive scan for us..... (and i want component output for my projector and lots of people have a HD reday Television these days) That means more jaggies, interlacing artifacts and flicker, and a less calm/steady image because the image is't shown at once, but in two times (odd horizontal scan lines and even horizontal scan lines). In Progressive Scanning all the horizontal scan lines are scanned on to the screen at one time.
Post by: thejeek on May 24, 2006, 12:34:09 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 24, 2006, 12:50:31 AM
Post by: thejeek on May 24, 2006, 01:11:53 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 24, 2006, 01:35:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeek
If Gamecube in Europe is anything to go by, the Wii will supportwhatever the cheapest commonly available interface is that's one step up from composite - I can't imagine for a second it'll support component. Nintendo will look at the installed base of TVs across Europe with component input, bearing in mind that they don't care about HD, count the resulting beans and support either RGB over SCART or S-Video.
That's my worry! People are discussing all these games and expect to play them on wide screen and progressive scan when it's likely that they will not be able to play them in progressive scan. And most televisions in the nearby furture will support component input. all new LCD's and plasma's do and all the new dvd player support component output. You should hear how much of these displays are being sold at the time of the world cup soccer in Germany this year. I think it's an option that sould be built in (but i also think that 5.1 dolby surround should be supported, but that's not going to happen).
Post by: thejeek on May 24, 2006, 02:06:44 AM
I don't have HD or even progressive scan support in my current TV and I likely won't have for a few years yet so I personally don't want the price of the Wii driven up by features that I won't benefit from. I'm not convinced of the need for HD support at all when 720p seems only a marginal quality increase over 576i PAL anyway. Progressive scan seems like even less of an issue - especially if you have a 100Hz TV that reduces flicker anyway.
Having said all that, I don't want the Wii to fail because lack of HD or progressive scan support puts other potential users off.
Post by: Wackman on May 24, 2006, 02:17:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeek
I think the problem is that TVs fall into two broad categories - old, non-HD with no component input and new, HD with component input. It seems pointless to me for Nintendo to support component input if they don't support HD resolution - what's the point of them including additional expensive hardware that can only be connected to an HD TV that the Wii does not fully support.
I don't have HD or even progressive scan support in my current TV and I likely won't have for a few years yet so I personally don't want the price of the Wii driven up by features that I won't benefit from. I'm not convinced of the need for HD support at all when 720p seems only a marginal quality increase over 576i PAL anyway. Progressive scan seems like even less of an issue - especially if you have a 100Hz TV that reduces flicker anyway.
Having said all that, I don't want the Wii to fail because lack of HD or progressive scan support puts other potential users off.
They support it for progressive scan reasons. In the US, a lot of televisions have component input. High Def. is another issue, asside from profressive scan. HD is just about resolution. 720p over 576i....it's the p that makes the difference. the resolution less important to me.
The p for porgressive scan makes the image much better in my opinion. Especially with moving images like in games.
Post by: thejeek on May 24, 2006, 02:30:23 AM
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In the US, a lot of televisions have component input. High Def. is another issue, asside from profressive scan.
Fair enough but I don't think that's so much the case in Europe - progressive scan and component input support is rare on older, non-HD sets.
Quote
The p for porgressive scan makes the image much better in my opinion. Especially with moving images like in games.
Progressive is unarguably better than interlaced but it's a matter of degree and I think that much of what's objectional about interlaced display is the flicker resulting from the 50Hz refresh rate rather than visual artifacts resulting from the interlace - interlaced video looks much more acceptable to me on a 100Hz TV. Still - this is obviously a matter of taste and it's no help if you don't have a 100Hz TV.
The long term solution is just to move to HD, preferably 720p as 1080i seems a backwards step to me and 1080p seems to have compatibility problems. However, with no HD content on cable TV in the UK and no support from the Wii, I've no incentive to upgrade my perfectly serviceable regular PAL TV. Plus the HDMI business leaves me worried that if I bought something now, it might be incompatible with HD cable TV when it finally gets here...
Post by: Wackman on May 24, 2006, 02:43:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeekQuote
In the US, a lot of televisions have component input. High Def. is another issue, asside from profressive scan.
Fair enough but I don't think that's so much the case in Europe - progressive scan and component input support is rare on older, non-HD sets.Quote
The p for porgressive scan makes the image much better in my opinion. Especially with moving images like in games.
Progressive is unarguably better than interlaced but it's a matter of degree and I think that much of what's objectional about interlaced display is the flicker resulting from the 50Hz refresh rate rather than visual artifacts resulting from the interlace - interlaced video looks much more acceptable to me on a 100Hz TV. Still - this is obviously a matter of taste and it's no help if you don't have a 100Hz TV.
The long term solution is just to move to HD, preferably 720p as 1080i seems a backwards step to me and 1080p seems to have compatibility problems. However, with no HD content on cable TV in the UK and no support from the Wii, I've no incentive to upgrade my perfectly serviceable regular PAL TV. Plus the HDMI business leaves me worried that if I bought something now, it might be incompatible with HD cable TV when it finally gets here...
I agree, there are some compatibilliy issues that need to be resolved with those resolutionsbefore i buy a HD tv too. But i really think that within 3 years, the majority of (gaming) people will have a HD ready television.
And ofcourse the refresh rate of a 100Hz tv is reducing the flicker. But Progressive scan reduces the flickering to none. And it really helps to reduce those jaggie edges.
We'll see. The wii will be a lot of fun. Zelda, Metroid, Mario, red steel, and lot's of new games. even with the composit cable it will be fun.
Post by: thejeek on May 24, 2006, 02:55:13 AM
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The wii will be a lot of fun ... even with the composit cable it will be fun.
Absolutely! Even plain old analog broadcast PAL TV can look really good if the source material is well produced and there's no real reason that video games shouldn't look good and, more importantly, be good fun even if the link between the console and the TV isn't the best quality it could be.
Unfortunately, I think that Nintendo are deliberately avoiding HD, and possibly progressive scan as well here in Europe, to distance themselves from the competition as well as to cut costs and it will be a bit frustrating if the Wii's TV output is not the best quality your TV can support but hopefully it will be good enough not to distract from the gameplay.
[EDIT:] fixed pasted text in wrong place...
Post by: Wackman on May 24, 2006, 03:04:56 AM
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Unfortunately, I think that Nintendo are deliberately avoiding HD, and possibly progressive scan as well here in Europe, to distance themselves from the competition as well as to cut costs and it will be a bit frustrating if the Wii's TV output is not the best quality your TV can support but hopefully it will be good enough not to distract from the gameplay.
Well, it would be strange to use it to distance them selves from compitition.... But to cut costs, sure, that will probably be the reason. Probably the same reason why they're not supporting Dolby Digital (am still hoping for it though).
My problem is not with my tv. On my tv the artifacts are much less visible than on my projection screen.....
Post by: thejeek on May 24, 2006, 03:24:51 AM
you should have an big fat old 4:3 goldfish-bowl shaped 28" Bush bought from Tesco's like me!Post by: Wackman on May 24, 2006, 05:23:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeek
That'll teach you for having far too nice a projector telly then
It's not a projector telly. It's a projector, and on the other side of the room is a projection screen. Like a cinema. These projectors are cheaper than plasma's, but are capable of displaying HD, and the great thing is that you really feel that you are IN the movie (or Game). I'm playing Metroid Prime 2 now and it's truely fantastic.
Post by: thejeek on May 24, 2006, 06:13:45 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 24, 2006, 09:39:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeek
Oh. Sounds cool. I was tempted to get one a while back as you see loads of PC projectors on eBay which I guess you could use together with a TV capture card but the cost of bulb replacement and loud fan noise kind of put me off the idea. Also there's a risk of lag with a TV capture card which makes gaming impossible (I found this out trying to use my laptop as a screen for my Cube via a USB capture card). I'm guessing since you have component input you're using a projector designed for TV use?
Actually, no. I don't want to use it to watch television (oh wel, maybe to watch a few soccer matches during the world cup). I watch my dvd's with it (=fantastic), i play games on it (including nes games) an sometimes i watch some photographes from my laptop. I have the Panasonic PT 900Ae. The fan noise is actually pretty low... Bulb replacement is a fact indeed. But that's after 5000 hours. That's a lot of dvd's and games.
I also think that in time i'll but a PS3 or a 380 for HD DVD. (and HD games ofcourse), but for now, i just want a Wii. I just think that Nintendo games are great fun.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 24, 2006, 10:15:25 AM
All I really want is a freaking VGA port (or DVI in the variant that allows using a VGA adapter). My PC monitor cost a fraction of a HDTV's price and does the same resolutions at much higher frequency. Also it doesn't have a tuner that wants to find TV stations when I don't have the TV cable plugged in for a few months or spontaneously decides that it's a widescreen TV...
Post by: Kairon on May 24, 2006, 10:18:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I worded my post badly, I'm aware that SCART is the RGB thingie. First I thought YPrPb stood for something like Ytterbium, Praseodymium and Plumbum.
LOL! ...wait...omg... are those real elements? ARGH! CHEMISTRY!
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: AnyoneEB on May 24, 2006, 11:35:25 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on May 25, 2006, 12:03:57 AM
Post by: Wackman on May 25, 2006, 12:49:17 AM
Post by: thejeek on May 25, 2006, 12:59:30 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on May 25, 2006, 09:50:31 AM
As in "If you-a don't pay, Luigi here will pump you full-a plumbum, capiche?"
