Post by: Kairon on May 09, 2006, 08:57:13 PM
One of the things he said about the controller is that it only seems to have, I don't remember exactly, 30 degrees of pointing sensitivity. He rotated his wrist slightly to illustrate this. He also said that if something passed in front of the sensor bar the gameplay would get disrupted.
He may be wrong, but we'll find out soon enough anyways.
So, this implies that the sensor bar has the same limitations as the superscope: if something physically obstructs its line of sight it can't do its job.
Also, while his comment with regards to the small range of degrees the wii remote can sense when pointing may imply that as a pointer it doesn't really know it's location in 3D space, but uses some kind of other technology to determine its screen pointing position...
... He may have simply not had the chance to explore or test possibly fuller uses of the wii remote, or he was making small movements from his wrist because he had figured out a way to play the game that way instead of with big arm movements (much like IGN says Tennis can be played either with the big full-arm racket movements, or with smaller wrist gestures).
Anyways, I'm pooped. Gotta get up early tomorrow to finally hopefully get my hands on some Wii gameplay, and I also sorta want to write-up my experiences in full, ugh. Not enough hours in a day!
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on May 09, 2006, 09:05:16 PM
Post by: Shecky on May 09, 2006, 09:11:52 PM
Bad ascii art....
--------TV-----------
X <-You
Post by: The Omen on May 09, 2006, 09:59:11 PM
Post by: Kairon on May 09, 2006, 10:03:30 PM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Crimm on May 09, 2006, 10:05:19 PM
Post by: wandering on May 09, 2006, 10:15:01 PM
Post by: Shecky on May 09, 2006, 10:22:14 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on May 09, 2006, 10:24:36 PM
I hate when this happens..
Post by: trip1eX on May 09, 2006, 10:34:09 PM
Also the 30 degrees of pointing sensitivity means nothing more than you'll have a hard time playing while standing 1 foot in front of your TV. ie the closer you are to the TV the greater the angle (from your pointer or remote) to either edge of the TV screen will be. ie it will exceed 30 degrees. That's all. Nothing to see here. Move on.
IF this 30 degree number is true and you want to get an idea of how far you have to be far your TV to play then here's the calculation.
Measure width of TV. Tan 30 degrees ( or ~.577) = Width TV/2/X with X equaling distance you must be from the TV.
For the 23" standard TV in my office I would have to be at least 16.9 inches away from the TV.
If you have a 50" widescreen TV you have to stand at least a shade over 3 ft away from the TV.
edit: The above is done with the assumption that 30 degrees means in either direction of center. IF it's total then the numbers are doubled and then some.
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on May 10, 2006, 12:37:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Nye
SCIENCE!
Post by: RickPowers on May 10, 2006, 05:24:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Today I sat in on a couple of E3 workshops and I this morning I attended one where a cautious and skeptical game developer was commenting on the Wii controller in response to a question posed to him.
One of the things he said about the controller is that it only seems to have, I don't remember exactly, 30 degrees of pointing sensitivity. He rotated his wrist slightly to illustrate this. He also said that if something passed in front of the sensor bar the gameplay would get disrupted.
So, this implies that the sensor bar has the same limitations as the superscope: if something physically obstructs its line of sight it can't do its job.
Also, while his comment with regards to the small range of degrees the wii remote can sense when pointing may imply that as a pointer it doesn't really know it's location in 3D space, but uses some kind of other technology to determine its screen pointing position...
... He may have simply not had the chance to explore or test possibly fuller uses of the wii remote, or he was making small movements from his wrist because he had figured out a way to play the game that way instead of with big arm movements (much like IGN says Tennis can be played either with the big full-arm racket movements, or with smaller wrist gestures).
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
From what I understand the limited angle of pointing is a given. Look at the distance between the TV and the controller, and do the geometry.
In fact, the further away from the TV you are (and the smaller the TV, for that matter), the smaller the degree of sensitivity.As for the "line of sight" issue, I expect that this will only be a problem for games that need to sense 3D position. The accellerometers should work fine regardless.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 10, 2006, 08:01:19 AM
That's kind of crummy. I figure we would find it if it was an issue very quickly from impressions from the floor. They couldn't "hide" something like that for long if it was a problem.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 08:12:14 AM
I really need confirmation of how the controller actually works.
Post by: zakkiel on May 10, 2006, 09:05:31 AM
QuoteSo far as we know, the controller has no connection to the TV. If it did, it would make the entire Wiisports package impossible, because golf and tennis both require sensing precise orientation while the controller is most definitely not pointing at the TV. I don't know what developer gave Kairon this information, but it sounds like he's completely off-base.
rom what I understand the limited angle of pointing is a given. Look at the distance between the TV and the controller, and do the geometry. In fact, the further away from the TV you are (and the smaller the TV, for that matter), the smaller the degree of sensitivity.
Post by: The Omen on May 10, 2006, 09:14:14 AM
Post by: AnyoneEB on May 10, 2006, 10:17:27 AM
Post by: RickPowers on May 10, 2006, 10:25:00 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on May 10, 2006, 10:29:54 AM
I'm sure we'll all enjoy holding still while an enemy is killing the sh!t out of us. I think they need a method we're more in control of.
Post by: AnyoneEB on May 10, 2006, 11:35:52 AM
Post by: vudu on May 10, 2006, 11:58:41 AM
QuoteIan, I hate you so much.
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"According to Jonny, calibration takes place automatically if you simply hold the controller still."
I'm sure we'll all enjoy holding still while an enemy is killing the sh!t out of us. I think they need a method we're more in control of.
Post by: zakkiel on May 10, 2006, 12:03:35 PM
Post by: RickPowers on May 10, 2006, 12:03:35 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 12:43:10 PM
Post by: The Omen on May 10, 2006, 12:45:59 PM
Quote
If you read the MP3 impressions, you'll find he has a point.
To think that's going to be the final product is quite foolhardy. There's 6 months of bug fixing and adjustments to clean it up. I expect Nintendo to make this a non issue.
Post by: Ceric on May 10, 2006, 12:47:58 PM
So since we know that the Full feature Wiimote has about a 4th of the range of a Wavebird (or half, I think Nintendo's Official Wavebird spec is 30 feet). We can surmise that if Someone fat walks inbetween you and the Wii or if Someone wearing a dense sheet or you try to play from under a dense sheet that it will probably get muddled. If I knew more about the Bluetooth Spec we could have more fun with stats.
Not to surprising. Nintendo probably had to lower the power because of all the stuff they are putting in the controller.
Post by: 31 Flavas on May 10, 2006, 12:59:06 PM
QuotePlease, don't hate the village idiot... That's like picking on a cripple...
Originally posted by: vudu
Ian, I hate you so much.
Post by: 31 Flavas on May 10, 2006, 01:03:12 PM
QuoteYet, Ian figures that takes 5 minutes or something...
Originally posted by: RickPowers
Actually, what I meant is that if the controller loses calibration, you simply hold it still, and it syncs up again.
Edit: It's really something to be defending Ian in post and bashing him in the next, but Ian's leaps of logic always amuse and amaze me.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on May 10, 2006, 01:04:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: 31 FlavasQuotePlease, don't hate the village idiot... That's like picking on a cripple...
Originally posted by: vudu
Ian, I hate you so much.
Ian's not really a village idiot, he's way to smart. He's more of a village super-pessimist.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 01:06:15 PM
Quote
Up to four Wii Remotes can be connected at once using wireless Bluetooth technology. The wireless signal can be detected within 10 meters of the console. Both the Wii Remote and Nunchuk controllers include a three-axis motion sensor. The Wii Remote also includes a speaker, rumble feature and expansion port, and can be used as a pointer within 5 meters of the screen.
If it worked the way I originally thought, there would only be one conceivable reason for the pointer ability to be range limited, which is that the triangulation of the controller's position would be less accurate the further away from the sensor bar it moved. It seems unlikely that it would be imprecise enough for such a short range limit, however. I see the writing on the wall now. The good news is that only one of my fantasies is actually crushed by this revelation. I had previously thought that if the Wii knew where the controller was in relation to the TV, then it also knew where it was in relation to the game world, meaning that you'd actually have to shoot around things. I would have enjoyed that added level of immersion, but it's not a major loss. It does mean that Sony's ripoff is closer to the real thing than I thought it was, though.
Eesh. I'm trying not to let this shattering of my illusions dull my excitement. Time to go read more Super Mario Galaxy impressions!
Post by: zakkiel on May 10, 2006, 01:28:14 PM
QuoteOr, uh, the standard limit for a good signal from remote to receiver? This information actually means nothing at all.
If it worked the way I originally thought, there would only be one conceivable reason for the pointer ability to be range limited, which is that the triangulation of the controller's position would be less accurate the further away from the sensor bar it moved.
QuoteIt does. Did you notice the ping-pong demonstration? With sufficiently precise accelerometers you need only the occasional input from some fixed reference (like a pair of IR sensors) to keep track of space. The fact that there are only two sensors - which doesn't allow any vertical location at all - suggests that the accelerometers are the more important feature.
I had previously thought that if the Wii knew where the controller was in relation to the TV, then it also knew where it was in relation to the game world, meaning that you'd actually have to shoot around things.
Post by: Jensen on May 10, 2006, 01:39:02 PM
Analog Devices Wii press release
ADXL330
Tilt functionality is just a detection of the acceleration of gravity. To the contoller, gravity is sensed the same way as any other acceleration. The IR gives a frame of reference.
Only being $1 to $2, I wouldn't be suprised to see the traditional controller have the 3 axis accelerometer.
Post by: 31 Flavas on May 10, 2006, 01:40:07 PM
QuoteBluetooth! Wai! I wonder if we can use it and the sensor bar with our PC computer's too then? Maybe even future PC games could use the Wii-mote. Oooooo.
Originally posted by: PartyBear
I finally paid attention to the few specs Nintendo mentions on the official Wii site:Quote
Up to four Wii Remotes can be connected at once using wireless Bluetooth technology. The wireless signal can be detected within 10 meters of the console. Both the Wii Remote and Nunchuk controllers include a three-axis motion sensor. The Wii Remote also includes a speaker, rumble feature and expansion port, and can be used as a pointer within 5 meters of the screen.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 04:28:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel
Or, uh, the standard limit for a good signal from remote to receiver? This information actually means nothing at all.
The range of the controller and the range at which it can be used as a pointer would be the same if that were the deciding factor.
QuoteQuoteIt does. Did you notice the ping-pong demonstration? With sufficiently precise accelerometers you need only the occasional input from some fixed reference (like a pair of IR sensors) to keep track of space.
I had previously thought that if the Wii knew where the controller was in relation to the TV, then it also knew where it was in relation to the game world, meaning that you'd actually have to shoot around things.
That's not quite the same thing I was thinking of. The paddle in the table tennis game has to start somewhere. From that point, the accurate accelerometer is good enough to map real world motion to virtual world motion. However, there's no way for that starting position to be related to any real world position. If it were possible to know exactly where in the room the controller was, you could take it one more step. Imagine a room with a column in it. Now imagine that the player's viewpoint is directly behind the column, so that it's in the middle of the screen. If the player is sitting directly in front of the TV, he can shoot straight ahead and hit the column. If he reaches around to the right, he can shoot around the column, hitting the wall behind it even though he can't see it. With the controller's absolute position known, the bullet's trajectory can be traced from the controller all the way into the virtual environment instead of from a virtual gun in that environment. That can't be done on relative position alone. It can be approximated using the pointing function combined with the motion sensing, but that's beyond the point I'm trying to make. Knowing the absolute position of the controller could have allowed for some gameplay ideas that aren't feasible without it.
Quote
The fact that there are only two sensors - which doesn't allow any vertical location at all - suggests that the accelerometers are the more important feature.
I was operating on the assumption that it was the controller that had three transmitters in it.
Post by: Shecky on May 10, 2006, 04:57:41 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 05:02:56 PM
Post by: stevey on May 10, 2006, 05:20:12 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 05:48:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: stevey
Accelerometer only sense rapid change in speed, but the wiimote has gyro's that are the tilt / twist senser that can make up for the limited pointing detection and the wiimote not even finished yet, give nintendo time fix stuff before bitching.
Here's the most relevant text from the page Jensen found (emphasis added):
Quote
About the ADXL330
The ADXL330 is a small, low profile, low power, 3-axis accelerometer with signal conditioned analog voltage outputs. With a ±2 g range, it is capable of measuring the static acceleration of gravity for tilt-sensing applications, as well as dynamic acceleration resulting from motion, shock, or vibration. Power consumption is extremely low, less than 200 microamps at 2.0 V (typical). Supply voltage range is 2.0 V to 3.6 V. The ADXL330 is compatible with applications requiring bandwidths ranging from 0.5Hz to 1.6 kHz. The ADXL330 is offered in a 4 mm × 4 mm × 1.45 mm, 16-lead, plastic lead frame chip scale package, with a shock rating of 10,000 g.
Judging by this, the accelerometer is way better than I expected. There are no gyroscopes in the controller. It doesn't need them. Also, I'm not complaining. I guess that may be assumed since that's been the norm around here lately, but I'm just talking about something I find interesting. I hope that doesn't offend you too much.
Post by: Jensen on May 10, 2006, 06:07:54 PM
Holding the controller upside down will give the same 3 numbers as pushing the controller downwards at 2g. But turning the controller upside down requires it to first be on its side, so you can infer that the controller was turned.
Without harsh lateral movement, Pitch and Roll detection is absolute, because it is sensing the constant force of gravity. Yaw detection is relative, so it can drift. Lateral vs. Rotational motion is just infered. You could use the remote as a pointer without the sensor bar, but the horizontal orientation would quickly drift. The IR sensor bar gives absolute orientation along the horizontal/yaw axis. The IR can also detect distance by comparing how far apart the sensors are.
Post by: Ceric on May 10, 2006, 06:18:04 PM
Post by: jasonditz on May 10, 2006, 06:25:31 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 06:48:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jensen
This is very simple guys. There are 3 acceleration sensors in the controller. The only feedback is 3 numbers: the amount of acceleration in each of the three directions.
Your own link makes a good case for there only being one sensor in each controller. One chip can detect acceleration on 3 axes, and it can detect the pull of gravity. Color me impressed.
Quote
Holding the controller upside down will give the same 3 numbers as pushing the controller downwards at 2g. But turning the controller upside down requires it to first be on its side, so you can infer that the controller was turned.
Not to mention that as soon as it came to rest, it would detect a sudden, constant 1g pull in the opposite direction that could be assumed to be gravity. There's no way anyone could keep it moving in the same direction at 1g for long.
Quote
Without harsh lateral movement, Pitch and Roll detection is absolute, because it is sensing the constant force of gravity. Yaw detection is relative, so it can drift. Lateral vs. Rotational motion is just infered. You could use the remote as a pointer without the sensor bar, but the horizontal orientation would quickly drift. The IR sensor bar gives absolute orientation along the horizontal/yaw axis.
That's an interesting point. I'd wager the sensor is actually in the controller, and the bar has IR emitters on it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the bar was horizontal. The sensor would see two bright spots in the IR spectrum, and the controller's orientation could be determined based on the line between them. However, twist the controller 180 degrees and it will see the exact same thing. I don't think that's what the IR is for, regardless.
Quote
The IR can also detect distance by comparing how far apart the sensors are.
True, as long as the sensors are in view. Acceleration detection can make up for when they aren't, and it may explain the need to continuously recalibrate under some circumstances.
All of that still only gets the position of the controller within its own reference frame, though. The virtual world is a different reference frame, and the only way to know the controller's absolute position in the virtual world's reference frame is to start with a known point in both. That would be the TV screen. The game knows which point in the virtual world is being used as a POV. It could paint a dot on the screen and ask you to touch the controller to it to calibrate, and then the two reference frames would be in sync right up until the moment you exceeded 2 g with the controller, which is probably pretty easy to do based on the examples at the end of this article.
Let me reiterate that I am not whining. The controller does not suck. The controller is awesome. I just want to understand it.
Post by: Jensen on May 10, 2006, 07:18:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Ok Jensen to much technical in one setting. What's that expanded into laymen? I think I know but its to late. Maybe I'll read it again tomorrow.
It's like a bubble level, with one bubble thing along each axis.
I'm not the best at explaining technical things, so I probably understand it better than I am explaining it.
Post by: Jensen on May 10, 2006, 07:50:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PartyBearQuote
Originally posted by: Jensen
This is very simple guys. There are 3 acceleration sensors in the controller. The only feedback is 3 numbers: the amount of acceleration in each of the three directions.
Your own link makes a good case for there only being one sensor in each controller. One chip can detect acceleration on 3 axes, and it can detect the pull of gravity. Color me impressed.
I don't know how the sensor works, but the output is a 3d vector (magnitude of force and direction)
QuoteQuote
Holding the controller upside down will give the same 3 numbers as pushing the controller downwards at 2g. But turning the controller upside down requires it to first be on its side, so you can infer that the controller was turned.
Not to mention that as soon as it came to rest, it would detect a sudden, constant 1g pull in the opposite direction that could be assumed to be gravity. There's no way anyone could keep it moving in the same direction at 1g for long.
My example was a bit extreme. Moving laterally up and to the left would make the same force as rolling to the right and then back to neutral. (Without the IR and IR sensor)
QuoteYeah, you're right, I was just used to it being called a sensor bar. And based on photos, it is horizontal.
I'd wager the sensor is actually in the controller, and the bar has IR emitters on it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the bar was horizontal.
QuoteThe gyroscopic mice work because the only sense input while holding down a button, they are relative, like a mouse. The Wiimote has to work differently.Quote
The IR can also detect distance by comparing how far apart the sensors are.
True, as long as the sensors are in view. Acceleration detection can make up for when they aren't, and it may explain the need to continuously recalibrate under some circumstances.
Quote
Let me reiterate that I am not whining. The controller does not suck. The controller is awesome. I just want to understand it.
The controller isn't magic :-) It can't always detect 6 discreet degrees of absolute control.
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 10, 2006, 08:02:23 PM
QuoteWho said anything about mice? Have you read the MP3 impressions? There's mention of recalibration.
Originally posted by: JensenThe gyroscopic mice work because the only sense input while holding down a button, they are relative, like a mouse. The Wiimote has to work differently.
QuoteAw, crap. Why don't you just crush all my dreams while you're at it?
The controller isn't magic :-)
Post by: Jensen on May 10, 2006, 08:20:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PartyBearQuoteWho said anything about mice? Have you read the MP3 impressions? There's mention of recalibration.
Originally posted by: JensenThe gyroscopic mice work because the only sense input while holding down a button, they are relative, like a mouse. The Wiimote has to work differently.
That was me thinking to myself... On why gyroscopic mice don't need IR or calibration.
I'd be more excited about MP3 with a traditional mouse and the nunchuk. The edge sensing stuff makes it harder to watch videos.... it just doesn't look as slick. PCs are still the best platform for FPS games.
Post by: Athrun Zala on May 10, 2006, 08:32:07 PM
Quotehow about pausing the game?
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"According to Jonny, calibration takes place automatically if you simply hold the controller still."
I'm sure we'll all enjoy holding still while an enemy is killing the sh!t out of us. I think they need a method we're more in control of.
Post by: Jensen on May 10, 2006, 09:09:50 PM
Link
