Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 19, 2006, 08:26:19 PM
My conversation was long, and it was nearly a year ago, so I'll summarize and paraphrase.
Walker's comments to me on the direction of the series:
- Multiplayer in Echoes was a fun experiment, partially successful. If they do multiplayer again, it will be something completely different.
- Worried about complaints of Echoes being too difficult, particularly the Boost Ball guardian and a sometimes unhelpful hint system.
- In serious internal discussions of how to develop Samus as a character, which will ultimately determine whether space battles, bounty hunts, etc. are added to the series.
- Looking for more ways to use third-person view, after the success of Screw Attack.
- The MP3 teaser was made in a matter of days and was not originally intended to be shown at E3. It was an internal demo only. If Retro had known the teaser would be shown to the press and public, they would have done it differently (no details given).
My feedback to him:
- When asked to rate Samus's morality on a scale of 1-10, 1 being Boba Fett and 10 being Luke Skywalker (I'm not kidding, he used Star Wars characters), I answered "Han Solo", explaining that Samus puts up a front of greed (as a bounty hunter) but is actually motivated by pure intentions.
- The controls could feel less cumbersome if Samus had movement systems such as Speed Boost and Spring Ball, and if the turning speed was tuned up (he replied that it was slowed to appease Japanese tastes).
- Upgrades should change how the game is played, if only slightly. Avoid upgrades that act like glorified keys to open special doors. Avoid actual keys entirely. Players would rather find a way to reach a high ledge than find an otherwise useless visor to open a specially colored door.
- Potentially cool abilities like the grapple beam are wasted because they require predetermined situations to be used at all. Abilities like Screw Attack are best because they can be used anywhere, optional uses can be found, and they can still unlock new areas and move the game forward.
I'm pulling these from memory, so if I remember something else, I'll add it later. Hope I did Metroid fans justice with this feedback to an extremely influential guy.
Post by: wandering on February 19, 2006, 08:35:14 PM
I agree with all of your feedback as well, except perhaps the bit about turning speed....I wouldn't really want metroid to feel like Timesplitters.
Post by: BiLdItUp1 on February 19, 2006, 08:35:50 PM
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 19, 2006, 08:41:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BiLdItUp1
That's some pretty cool info, Jonny - but were you muzzled or something? e32k5 is long gone.
It was an off-the-record conversation at a party. (That's how I got to talk to him for over an hour...this was no supervised interview.) I think it's been long enough that I can share this information publicly, especially since he gave only the tiniest concrete details on MP3.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 19, 2006, 08:45:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
I agree with all of your feedback as well, except perhaps the bit about turning speed....I wouldn't really want metroid to feel like Timesplitters.
I wouldn't either. I do want Samus to feel more like she does in the 2D games, instead of like a walking tank. It's a power suit, not a mech. Hitting the sweet spot is more difficult in three dimensions, but I think they've missed the mark in the first two games. The pacing would be more acceptable if you had the option of playing more of the game as the morph ball, not just the specially designed tunnels. Since the morph ball has slow and limited jumping, and it can't open most doors, it's usually not an efficient way to move around the map. Spring ball could fix that, as well as changing the way beam doors work (so you only have to shoot them once with the designated beam, and they become blue doors thereafter).
Post by: Mario on February 19, 2006, 09:24:35 PM
Quote
- Worried about complaints of Echoes being too difficult, particularly the Boost Ball guardian and a sometimes unhelpful hint system.
NO! I love the hard difficulty! I can see how it would turn some people off though, so I think they could have made the first play through of MP2 a bit easier, but kept the hard mode really hard, for gamers who enjoy a challenge. Nobody has any right to complain about a "hard mode" being too hard.
I want LESS HINTS too. Well, less hints of the obvious type, subtle clues that aren't immediately apparent are cool.
Quote
(he replied that it was slowed to appease Japanese tastes)
Wow... that's interesting, I would have thought it was slower because of the games emphasis on exploration rather than action. I thought the pacing of the Prime games was perfect, and I can't really see how the old 2D games were much faster (besides Fusion...). Faster walking would have hurt the atmosphere a bit for me, as I enjoyed examining the awesome environments while playing.
This game has been off my radar recently.. i'm getting hyped for it again now! It's going to be really interesting how they make use of the new controller, and even if the Revolutions graphical power isn't as high as PS3 or 360, i'm REALLY looking forward to seeing next gen Retro Studios detail.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 19, 2006, 09:44:22 PM
Not sure if faster movement should be in there, that'd create problems with the look system and since moving faster will be a requirement in the boss fights then that could end up disorienting.
Were those key-only items only in MP2 (as I said I didn't play past the boost guardian)? Except for the artifacts I don't seem to remember anything in MP that didn't have other uses as well.
The grapple was always limited in use, some enemies could be hurt with it but usually you could only use it to attach to special "attach grapple here" blocks.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on February 19, 2006, 09:53:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
When asked to rate Samus's morality on a scale of 1-10, 1 being Boba Fett and 10 being Luke Skywalker
I take offense to that. Boba Fett is more like a three or a four. Jabba the Hutt would be a one. And Luke Skywalker would be closer to a seven.
...
That's not what this thread is about, is it?
Post by: ThePerm on February 19, 2006, 11:40:34 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on February 19, 2006, 11:49:08 PM
I can sympathize with the people who felt Prime 2 too dificult, but with the revmote things will go smoother. I wouldn't be upset if part 3 was easier to get into; what I want though is a greater sense of AI (or lack there of) in characters like in Halo.
Samus I feel is more a bounty hunter than a starfighter, but vehicular options during the game can be fun; once again, I point to Halo as evidence. But if the vehicular sequences were like say, StarFox Adventures, count me out. I'd rather think of the vehicle in gameplay the same way it is thought of in GTA or a horse in Zelda. Back to bounty hunting; it would be interesting to do some actual bounty hunting, and I would figure Samus might have a few hunters after bounties on her head.
The third person view in my opinion should still offer up all the controls of first person (though auto aim would likely get used more in third person), but the revmote could be toggled to allow you to do special melee and stealth moves when in third person. A sword would be nice in the game. Jumping would be easier in third person. Samus definately needs to be faster on foot (the revmote should solve turning speeds) and a rocketpack upgrade near the end of the game could be fun. Or you could just snatch them from dead enemies like you take an enemies gun in Halo. The catch would be you eventually run out of fuel, the pack slows you down when on foot, and you can't jump so high when carrying the pack.
"Potentially cool abilities like the grapple beam are wasted because they require predetermined situations to be used at all."
I think the grapple beam should either be included into Samus' arm canon arsenal or should be a type of electric gauntlet you attain; anyways, it should be used anytime you want. One should be able to grab enemies and throw them, pull in power ups, and generally grab any environment and swing from it. I could see players grabbing pirates and beating other pirates over and over with the dead pirate's body from a distance using the remote. Or you could torture an enemy shocking them repeatedly until they give up information.
Edit: I tried to be short but since I failed I'm going to share some of my ideas for the next Prime. I want to use the mic to not only talk to in game characters and to other players (coop or team deathmatch), I want an echo canon that generates a beam according to the sound you create. The pitch, volume, key, note, rhythm, etc. will affect color, shape, size, strength, accuracy, reach, etc. of the beam.
Stealth cloaks specific to the visor technologies of the particular enemy you are facing. This would play out best in death match where pirate, marine, and other characters other than Samus will feature different hubs with unique visor set ups. So maybe you're invisible to the naked eye, but your pirate buddies have heat vision available. Or you think you are safe in the dark, the only one who can see, but behold the other bounty hunter has green night vision. There definately need to be more alien creatures with unique technologies in the next Prime. When playing through the first prime I kept thinking about what the pirate saw, because there was such an emphasis on Samus' hub and visors. It all made me think of Predator.
Also, what about remote controlling the rockets, even sticking them in enemies, and blowing them up when you feel like it (like when they run to their friends for help).
And I think it would look cool to have a beam with a rotating barrel.
Post by: blackfootsteps on February 20, 2006, 12:04:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
i dided several times on the boost gaurdian, but..once i figured it out it was freaking easy...but i was so worried about dominating i didnt get a chance to scan em.
Wow, same thing here. After my fifth attempt for some reason I didn't scan even though I had for every other go. When I beat it and realized, I was devo. Didn't retry, my win was probably luck!
Post by: Mario on February 20, 2006, 12:43:54 AM
Vehicles and GTA elements? Samus is not Jak, and this isn't Halo, it's Metroid.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 20, 2006, 02:46:19 AM
What? Proof of Samus putting up a front, please...
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 20, 2006, 04:22:01 AM
Post by: stevey on February 20, 2006, 04:29:42 AM
Boost ball guardian is easy once you figure out the patter and I love the hardness of mp2.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 20, 2006, 04:31:58 AM
Post by: Strell on February 20, 2006, 04:33:42 AM
In all reality, though, she's hardcore. I believe Tycho said it best: "She's a bona fide bad-ass - she doesn't call her mom, and she doesn't apologize for sh*t."
Post by: KDR_11k on February 20, 2006, 05:02:09 AM
Bill: If she didn't act different in public her job description would be "knight and defender of all that is good", not "bounty hunter".
Post by: ThePerm on February 20, 2006, 06:23:52 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 07:18:33 AM
Basically, every time I see a door which I know I cannot open and will need to return to later, it diminishes my desire to play the game. MP1's backtracking was tolerable but it seems to have increased tenfold in MP2, making the game equal parts gameplay and backtracking.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 20, 2006, 07:26:27 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 20, 2006, 07:56:44 AM
Always...
Post by: Ceric on February 20, 2006, 07:59:08 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 20, 2006, 08:35:30 AM
I don't mind the relatively slow pace, nor the difficulty, but I wouldn't mind seeing a new approach. The new approach to multiplayer sounds like it could have awesome potential.
I cannot wait to play this game, I love Metroid. I'm also interested in seeing how they deal with the story, the last part of the Prime (phazon) trilogy. I hope it involves the phazon more than the second (like the first), although I enjoyed Prime 2's story.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 20, 2006, 08:47:54 AM
- Samus moves too slow. There are times where an enemy is behind me and I want to turn around and kill them and I can't do it quick enough to avoid taking damage. It's something they have to tinker with and really test to find the right speed.
- The stupid key hunt at the end. Metroid Prime is not a short game. There is no need to tack on two hours of crap to make the game longer. No one enjoys that time anyway so it's not like anyone would miss it if it wasn't there. If they feel the need to add something like that make it another area to explore or something cool like that. In Super Metroid the assumption at the start of the game is that Ridley is the last boss. But when you beat him you still have more to do. That's fun and it's a nice surprise. Having to collect useless junk to kill more time isn't.
- I'd like it if scanning saved automatically. I try to get a perfect scan record and it's very annoying when I die and have to rescan everything I've done since the save point over again. This includes rescanning the boss. It's just a feature I would like included. It can even be temporary in that it's stored only until I save again or turn the game off. So if I turn the game off without resaving I have to do it again but if I'm just repeatedly trying to beat a boss I don't.
- Growlers or whatever they're called. In Metroid enemies respawn. This can be really annoying in some games but in Metroid there's a trick that makes it work. Usually the first time you meet an enemy he's hard and intimidating. But then when you get some more beams and items and such he becomes easier. So later on when you're backtracking you're all like "screw you sucka! I've grown more powerful since the last time we met" and then you school him with your new beam. These enemies I found never got easier. They were harder then some bosses to begin with and never became easier. And that made going back to any area with them frustrating.
- Expectations to do something I was either not "trained" to do or the game design just doesn't compliment. This relates to two bosses. The first is the spider ball boss. This boss required mad skills with using the boost in halfpipes. The problem is I sucked at half-pipes because there was not really any need for me to be good at it prior to that point and thus I never practiced. Suddenly I meet this boss and it's like a whole new game. All my Metroid Prime skills don't mean crap. That kind of sucks and makes the game much harder for no reason. The second boss where this issue bothered me was the Ing Queen (or whatever its name was). That boss required me to look up at things from above. I'm required to do this with a game system designed so that I never have to look up. Looking up in Metroid Prime is incredibly awkward and difficult and now I was required to fight the game to overcome this obstacle. I never beat Metroid Prime 2 because of this. I just got tired of fighting the game.
Overall though they've made two amazing games. There's just, as always, things that can be improved.
Oh yes and DON'T TURN METROID INTO A FIRST PERSON SHOOTER! Ignore everyone who suggests this.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 08:51:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Backtracking >>>>>>>>> Linear
Like I said, the backtracking in MP1 was fine. It had just enough that you could generally remember where you needed to return to in order to progress. MP2, on the other hand, overdid the backtracking to the point where I didn't care to see any further in the game.
I don't care how "core" of an element backtracking is to the game: it's a game mechanic used to artificially extend the play time and too much of it is just obnoxious.
I'll rent MP3 before I buy it, unless I hear from reviews that the backtracking was drastically toned down.
Furthermore, what's so great about backtracking? Why would anyone be so enamored with the concept of walking back through an area (often repeatedly) that they've already been to in order to access an area which you've already seen but the game didn't allow you to enter until you picked up an item from ANOTHER area?
Post by: ThePerm on February 20, 2006, 08:52:31 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 20, 2006, 08:56:24 AM
I think I'm the only one who liked the treasure hunt...If the game outright told you exactly where the pieces were, then yeah, but it was basically solving minature riddles...I enjoyed it!...MP2's key trek was pretty tiresome though...
That boss required me to look up at things from above. I'm required to do this with a game system designed so that I never have to look up. Looking up in Metroid Prime is incredibly awkward and difficult and now I was required to fight the game to overcome this obstacle. I never beat Metroid Prime 2 because of this.
Well you obviously have nothing to worry about anymore, thanks to the Revmote...
I don't care how "core" of an element backtracking is to the game: it's a game mechanic used to artificially extend the play time and too much of it is just obnoxious.
No, it's a mechanic used to naturally produce non-linear gameplay...If you don't like backtracking, why are you even playing Metroid games?
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 09:08:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
No, it's a mechanic used to naturally produce non-linear gameplay...If you don't like backtracking, why are you even playing Metroid games?
You can produce non-linear gameplay in a number of creative ways which don't involve the boring retracing of steps. Making the player walk back through an area which they've already been to numerous times is just as repugnant as Rare's practice of making players collect endless piles of unnecessary crap to extend the overall play time.
I enjoy the bosses in Metroid, the combat, and the puzzle solving. I do not enjoy checking the map to figure out which doors can now be opened with the latest item I've acquired from a defeated boss.
Like I said, unless MP3 tones down the backtracking or adds some excellent online multiplayer, I don't intend on buying it.
Post by: Ceric on February 20, 2006, 09:10:00 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 09:19:45 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 20, 2006, 09:41:41 AM
The keys in Metroid Prime 2 were just more of an annoyance. They never really bothered me that much (except for the nine at the end), but they could have been done away with. The ones at the end were dumb, they should have had another ending thing, or at least just three keys.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 20, 2006, 09:42:36 AM
Post by: vudu on February 20, 2006, 09:51:56 AM
QuoteWhich ones were Growlers? I remember I hated those floating things in the Fortress (there were 3 of them in the verticle shaft in the same room where you fought one of the robot mini-bosses). I can't remembe why, but I was stuck there looking for something for like two hours and I had to kill about 90 of those things. God they were annoying.
Growlers or whatever they're called. These enemies I found never got easier. They were harder then some bosses to begin with and never became easier. And that made going back to any area with them frustrating.
Also, bring back the Super Missle. Five regular missles at once don't cut it.
Finally, no one-time scans except for bosses.
Post by: Galford on February 20, 2006, 10:00:32 AM
While MP2 was hard, but it wasn't so hard that it couldn't be beaten. I always thought the Spider Ball Guardian was harder then the Boost Ball Guardian. Also the game didn't get downright mean until you fought the second main boss, you know the one that morphs three times. The one that required the grapple beam.
You have to be careful how you do a grapple beam in 3d. The way it's currently done works well within the context of a 3d Metroid. The only reason Super Metroid could get way with it's grapple beam, was because it was a 2d game.
I'm more interested in seeing how the story of Metroid will evolve. At the end of Fusion it's implied Samus may or may not be a good guy the next time around. I hope MP3 at least has a story beyond let's save the world b/c Samus is a nice lady.
Post by: vudu on February 20, 2006, 10:15:13 AM
QuoteCome again? I certainly don't remember that implication.
At the end of Fusion it's implied Samus may or may not be a good guy the next time around.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 20, 2006, 10:33:59 AM
That's because in Zelda the world resembles something more like reality. There are towns and rivers and mountains and things we can identify as different. In Metroid it's like the game is one big dungeon. If Zelda was one big dungeon you would get lost more too.
Metroid needs backtracking. It just wouldn't be a true adventure game without it. Though I don't consider that backtracking but rather exploration. "Backtracking" is a term I use for lousy game design. If it's a big pain in the ass to go back somewhere then it's backtracking, otherwise it's exploration. The trick I suppose is what you get from retracing your steps. Going back to get a key sucks. Going back to open a door you couldn't before to access a whole new area is awesome. I LOVE that feeling.
Though one thing that would be cool is the ability to flag areas on the map that have something you know you can't access yet but will later. I've found with a lot of games like this I get stuck because I can't remember where I saw something that my new ability would allow me to access. Sometimes the map can help because there's a big unexplored blob or a door with nothing behind it. But sometimes you saw something under a vent or something that the map can't indicate as unexplored because you've been in the room. So you should be able to flag things to remind yourself to check them out later. They could have multiple flag types like specific flags for missiles or bombs. So you know that that flag just means you saw missiles you can't reach yet as opposed to the opening of a new area.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 11:03:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Going back to open a door you couldn't before to access a whole new area is awesome. I LOVE that feeling.
I think it's horribly cheesy when the game forces you to go make two trips to an area you only wanted to see once, but to each their own, I suppose.
Quote
Though one thing that would be cool is the ability to flag areas on the map that have something you know you can't access yet but will later. I've found with a lot of games like this I get stuck because I can't remember where I saw something that my new ability would allow me to access. Sometimes the map can help because there's a big unexplored blob or a door with nothing behind it. But sometimes you saw something under a vent or something that the map can't indicate as unexplored because you've been in the room. So you should be able to flag things to remind yourself to check them out later. They could have multiple flag types like specific flags for missiles or bombs. So you know that that flag just means you saw missiles you can't reach yet as opposed to the opening of a new area.
This would have helped a GREAT deal in making MP2 finishable for me. Having to say, "Ok, I just picked up the _____. Now what can I open?" was the least enjoyable part of the game.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 11:10:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Backtracking >>>>>>>>> Linear
Always...
I just realized something: Metroid IS linear!
If there's always one "right" place to go (and there is), then the game is linear.
If it were NON-linear, then I could choose which of 3-4 pieces of equipment I wanted to hunt down first. Maybe I'd pick the magnet ball which would make boss X easier or maybe I'd go for the jump boots because I just love the "flying" feeling. But no, that's not how Metroid works. Just because the game forces you to backtrack over an area you've already been does not prevent it from being a linear game.
There is a very SPECIFIC order in which you have to open doors, defeat bosses, and find items. The fact that the hint system exists at all is iron-clad PROOF that the game is linear.
If the game can tell you the next location you NEED to be, then the game is linear, period.
Post by: Strell on February 20, 2006, 11:11:11 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 11:16:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Ian, I am beginning to think you need a new hobby. I don't think this gaming thing is working out for you.
Give him credit where it's due.
The "flagging" idea for Metroid games would make them infinitely better. Rather than having to say, "Now where the f*ck was that Benzozate rock again?!?" being able to mark its location would greatly reduce the frustration with the game, especially if you could use the map to search for only flags which involve Benzozate, green doors, or whatnot.
Post by: ThePerm on February 20, 2006, 11:32:07 AM
Post by: Bloodworth on February 20, 2006, 11:37:50 AM
The biggest flaw in the transition to 3D is that Samus moves entirely different. She's much slower and can barely jump - Mario in 3D controls more like 2D Metroid than 3D Metroid does. The irony being that Mario wasn't nearly as acrobatic in 2D.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 11:40:06 AM
Still, the game ushers you from one area to the next in a linear fashion...it just happens to require walking back through places you've already been.
There's a reason why OoT employed the teleport songs to get around faster.
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 20, 2006, 11:40:14 AM
I'm also going to have to say that I outright disagree with smash brother on several points, especially the backtracking (though some parts I will admit are tedious). Backtracking is a part of Metroid games, always has been. It adds to the atmosphere of the game. You're playing a different game if you're not backtracking.
Also, Metroid is pretty linear. But who cares? Every good game I play is linear. I hate GTA after playing for about thirty minutes.
I'm also going to have to say that the Spider guardian was probably the most fun boss for me, and I never died playing it. The half-pipe is simple, it shouldn't take some insane skills to master it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 11:48:21 AM
Not saying you shouldn't enjoy the game. I just think it's an outdated concept which should be retired.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 20, 2006, 12:17:13 PM
Even the um, Boss-Boss where you have to "look/aim up" a lot... If you stand under a flag pole, of course it takes more effort to look at the top (given how the game's aiming mechinics are set... looking up slows down as the angle from the horizontal increases). If you stand much further away, the looking angle is much more gentle. Samus, at that point in the game, does have an ability to get her across the room safely and quickly, and the arena is fairly big. I know, looking up is a sore point in the game, but for that particular fight, you're in much greater danger standing "under the flag pole" ANYWAY. If anything, it's a hint to move to a better spot [which i take as a valid part of the fight design], but i suppose seasoned gamers don't identify the same obvious STRATEGERIES.
I'm sure the Bounty Hunter Samus Aran continually improves her efficiency by learning from each experience. I guess it's too much to ask of most players.
~~~~~
I do agree with the marker and the scan ideas.
Post by: Ceric on February 20, 2006, 12:19:20 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 12:26:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
I'm sure the Bounty Hunter Samus Aran continually improves her efficiency by learning from each experience. I guess it's too much to ask of most players.
Show me where Samus fights the "Boredom Monster" without complaint and then we'll talk.
Walking back over the same area I've been to is tedious and I can only tolerate so much of it in a game.
When I learned that, in DK64, the entire game would consist of collecting the same crap five goddamn times with different monkeys, I promptly returned it to the rental store and never thought of buying it.
The MP games aren't NEARLY that bad, but backtracking is tedious and a horrendous way to extent play time.
Dan is right, though, backtracking wasn't as bad in 2D because you could get around much faster whereas 3D is slow and clunky by comparison.
Post by: mantidor on February 20, 2006, 12:34:57 PM
The only complain I have for Echoes was the hub levels. Even if the game was longer it didnt feel that way. Is analog to traveling. When you go to somewhere unknown, the trip seems really long, but once you are there and return to the point of origin, the trip seems shorter, even if it takes the same time to make both trips. With echoes you knew already there were these three areas to clean, while with Metroid Prime you had no clue what was coming, the phazon mines or phendrana drifts were completly unexpected.
And about Samus agility, shes actually pretty fast in both Primes, but first person doesnt let that to be seen easily. If Retro can make her to act more agile with the remote it would be great, but I honestly have no idea how could that be pulled off in first person. I think that the actual speed of the visor while aiming is perfect, if they make it faster it would be just disorienting and makes precision aiming a lot more difficult.
and oh yes Dont change it to a third person shooter! because it would suck tons. Third person shooters dont work in claustrophobic enviroments, and it wouldnt be Metroid without claustrophobic enviroments.
Also Dont even think about putting Samus out of her suit! except some ultra extremely rare ocasion or the final scenes. She loses all her mistery and game companies cant help to sexualize thier female characters, like the art of Metroid Zero Mission, and I dont care if Bill liked it, it was disgusting
she shouldnt be sexualized at all, MP1 was on the right track, in some of the art galleries she's naked but feels like a real woman, not that big-breasts japanese fetish thats so hideous, not to mention the anime style of Samus in Echoes (basically it was a 3D version of the horrible art from Zero Mission), because it doesnt fit at all with Metroid's art direction and enviroments, Nintendo should really give up on Japan with this game, they will never like Metroid like we do, and trying to appeal to japanese only hurts the game in the process for their big fans in the west.And also another vote for NOT MAKING THIS A PLAIN FIRST PERSON SHOOTER OR ANY OF THAT HALO-ESQUE NONSENSE so basically dont listen to nemo at all.
Post by: King of Twitch on February 20, 2006, 12:36:23 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 20, 2006, 12:40:07 PM
Metroid Prime 2...
And there's really no mystery to Samus to being a woman anymore, so who cares if she's out of her suit at the end? (And the first Prime's Samus art is horrible...HORRIBLE...MP2/Zero Mission Samus for the win!)
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on February 20, 2006, 12:45:52 PM
In the next Metroid Prime, I want to see a MASSIVE boss, big enough to dwarf quadraxis. So huge that you can't damage it from the ground and have to use the grapple beam to reach its weak spots.
Post by: nemo_83 on February 20, 2006, 12:55:28 PM
It's pretty safe to say they are doing vehicles in the next game considering the E3 video. The question is will they be slapped in poorly or will the game be built from the ground up with ships and tanks in mind for deathmatch and single player/coop. Will it be a sparkling innovation only allowing player two to control the ship during coop or will vehicles be an open option for traveling distances outdoors and fighting enemies anytime like GTA, Zelda, Halo, or an ideal Star Wars game. I want to actually get in the ship while in first person rather than the camera switching the third person behind the ship automatically when Samus gets in to drive.
I think Samus was created originally as a bounty hunter to keep the character from being flat, noone likes a boring hero with no faults; I like the idea that money is her initial motive and they need to show that in the next game.
And the grapple beam (with its limited reach) would only allow jumping to involve greater distances and hights. It wouldn't make platforming pointless. Plus with a rocket pack there should be as many advantages as disadvantages to using it; yes, you may reach new hights but you won't be as agile.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 20, 2006, 01:01:18 PM
I agree 2D backtracking seems to not be a big deal. But I think, in addition to faster mechanics in the 2D games, the fact that the game map scrolls by with minimal on-screen time factors a lot into feel -- just "see-and-forget." Whereas in the 3D viewpoints you usually see where you're heading, so large portions of the room remain on your screen -- you feel like you're in the room longer.
Unlocking MULTIPLE new areas from an existing room I still want to see. "Resident Evil 4 Starring Samus" I do not.
I've never encountered the "Boredom Monster" in the Metroid Primes. Must be some hidden boss on your disc. Samus never complained either.
~~~~~
I acknowledge what trees are growing on your side of the fence, but I'll remain on my side.
Post by: mantidor on February 20, 2006, 01:26:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
She loses all her mistery and game companies cant help to sexualize thier female characters, like the art of Metroid Zero Mission, and I dont care if Bill liked it, it was disgusting
Metroid Prime 2...
BOOOOOOO!
And do you people really think that this isnt a sexualized deciption of her? or that this isnt just plainly superior?
this one is better though.
And I like very much japanese animation and comics, but for it to fit with the Prime games they should be cellshaded or something, after all I liked fusion's artwork, but ZM is disgusting, DISGUSTING I tell you
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 20, 2006, 01:27:49 PM
People will say it rips of Shadow of the Colossus, even if it did turn out to be twice as much fun. Which is totally possible.
Prof put it will when he said: "I acknowledge what trees are growing on your side of the fence, but I'll remain on my side." And I happen to be on his side.
I preferred the MP1 art. It wasn't great, but the one from 2 bothered me for some reason. She looked too fake, I think for a game that realistic graphically she should match that.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 20, 2006, 01:31:33 PM
First of all most vehicles in games that otherwise don't revolve around vehicles SUCK. They design them using the engine of the game which is ill suited for driving and the whole thing feels clunky and horrible. Or there's Rebel Strike which has the opposite problem. The only way to make it work is if the dev basically designs two games: the person one and vehicle one. It's doable but it takes a lot of dedication. Otherwise one or both components suffer.
Second of all vehicles require wide open spaces. Metroid doesn't have many wide open spaces. The very design of the game requires that wide open spaces be very uncommon. So Retro would be stuck. If they added too many open spaces the game would cease to feel like Metroid but without them vehicles would be damn near impossible to use. The best they could do is have a few parts of the game that use vehicles but I find that sort of thing forced. I'm of the idea where if you let me do something I should be able to do it in 90% of the game. That's why Yoshi is Super Mario World is cool. I can use him in every level except for castles and ghosthouses. In Super Mario Sunshine Yoshi is lame because I can really only use him at certain points in the game where the designers decided he was to be used. Vehicles like that are equally lame but with Metroid that's probably the best we could get.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 20, 2006, 01:44:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
[And do you people really think that this isnt a sexualized deciption of her?
I really don't...And this is from someone who truly respects women...Maybe if you showed skin, yes, but putting her in a body suit does nothing of the sort...
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on February 20, 2006, 01:46:30 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 20, 2006, 02:08:37 PM
The only vehicle I could see as plausible is her ship or maybe a means of faster transportation which she could employ. It'd be nice if you could call the ship to any location above ground and have it carry you around the map.
As for the "Boredom Monster", I still haven't beaten it, but it could more accurately be called the "Discouragement Monster", as it's not the boredom so much as the knowledge of the upcoming boredom as I make my way back to the places I've already been but could not yet enter.
Post by: mantidor on February 20, 2006, 02:09:53 PM
But being honest is just a minor complain of mine. I do think though that it should at least match the game's art direction, something Echoes didnt. And if they really give her missions outside the suit oppose to my wishes, it would be even more important to follow the art style of the whole game.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 20, 2006, 03:23:53 PM
Post by: ThePerm on February 20, 2006, 03:33:20 PM
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on February 20, 2006, 03:38:23 PM
Post by: Mario on February 20, 2006, 03:40:14 PM
I did have a few issues with MP2 though, one that sticks out is the progression of the game, I just had to guess which way to go sometimes because not much made sense, and also the dark world -while having some good ideas- was too dull overall. It's been a while since i've played it though, and i've only beat it once unlike Prime 1 which i've beaten a million times. This topic makes me want to play through both again...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 20, 2006, 04:04:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
god i hate the map system in mp! it looks cool and all, but it does't help me much, plus the damn thing repositions itself everytime you move.
Call me nuts. I played MP2 with the hints turned off to 1) prevent the game from holding my hand 2) reduce the linearity of the game. I say the map system is GREAT because without it, the way it is, I would never have finished the game (in time to play RE4). Save for 1 very specific instance, the map shows the minimum amount of info needed to traverse the entire game. It may just look like nifty blocks with colored doors, but they SAY A LOT. You know what upgrades you have, and you know what doors are locked; if you see a door on the map that has no room drawn behind it, it's probably worth visiting -- simple as that.
Post by: nemo_83 on February 20, 2006, 05:22:11 PM
Post by: vudu on February 20, 2006, 05:28:54 PM
QuoteThat might be the smartest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
When asked to rate Samus's morality on a scale of 1-10, 1 being Boba Fett and 10 being Luke Skywalker (I'm not kidding, he used Star Wars characters), I answered "Han Solo", explaining that Samus puts up a front of greed (as a bounty hunter) but is actually motivated by pure intentions.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on February 20, 2006, 05:41:28 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on February 20, 2006, 07:07:58 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 20, 2006, 08:41:37 PM
Wherever it's pointing, the closest room to there usually has a way to get there. And with it off, it doesn't bug you anymore.
Post by: Shorty McNostril on February 20, 2006, 08:46:20 PM
My thoughts.
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 20, 2006, 09:48:03 PM
Like, she's been hardened by her lifestyle, having constantly having to kill things, but she still has the essence of good left in her. The greed part may be a factor, but a lesser one.
I'd say Darth Vader, just less ridiculously evil.
Post by: ruby_onix on February 20, 2006, 10:32:51 PM
- I think the problem with "backtracking" is when you start to see through the illusion of the game, and start to recognize things as straight lines. I think a good way around this is to have multiple legitamite pathways to any given area, from any given area (and don't wuss out and make several "bottleneck" points with only one way through them, which mark your progress through the game), in addition to making numerous paths across particular rooms. Plus you can try to make paths through rooms that offer direction-specific experiences (jumping down a ledge for one direction, climbing it going the other way, for instance), or you could go with enviroments that can shift/change over time (and don't just go with triggers to cue the harder enemies).
- I think Bill's comment about Samus and money comes from the total lack of Samus's character development as a bounty hunter. I don't think that's something that should come from dialog writers, but more from the gameplay. There have been a number of games that try and capture the spirit of bounty hunting (if only just as side quests), but I can't think of any good examples offhand. Metriod has traditionally done none of that, and has stuck to heroic adventure.
And on the subject of Samus's character development, I think there won't be any more character development without more sexualization of her. Samus is sexy. She's not ugly. Making her more human (and less of a player-controlled robot) will only make her more sexy. And there's nothing wrong with that.
- Regarding Ian's suggestion of being able to make marks on your map, I remember saying/thinking the exact same thing about the Metroidvania games. Having a touchscreen map on Dawn of Sorrow would've been so much better than a dumb "sealing" system.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 20, 2006, 10:35:54 PM
At least it doesn't go "Hey! Listen!" all the time.
Post by: couchmonkey on February 21, 2006, 05:44:03 AM
Post by: trip1eX on February 21, 2006, 05:45:44 AM
I'm kind of scared the developers are going to Americanize this title and make it like all the other first person shooters out there. Please don't.
The turning speed? It didn't need to be faster. The challenge of the game was developed around the turning speed and other variables.
I liked the grapple beam and knowing that eventually you'll find it and use it at certain locations. This builds up anticipation and suspense for me and finally satisfaction after discovering the item and getting across that point.
I hope they just don't give you random moves. I don't want a thousand ways to kill the enemy. Sure a couple ways is fine. But I like this game and Zelda where you actually need to use your weapons or abilities in certain spots to progress in the game. The game is more thought out that way and more fun. This also helps distinguish it from every other game. Where you're given 10 weapons to use whenever you want. I think that's a bit lazy on the designers part. I hope they resist butchering this title.
IT also disturbs me they are going to go for more 3rd person views in the game. That's a mistake imo. Metroid Prime was kickass because of it's immersion factor. Everything was basically in-game.
I agree opening colored doors ain't as fun as getting abilities to reach higher ledges. I don't agree Samus is greedy. I'm not sure where that came from. I always saw her as more 'Super Hero' than 'Bounty Hunter.'
Post by: trip1eX on February 21, 2006, 05:57:19 AM
The 3d map is phenomenal. It really helped me move around and visualize the scope of the world.
And the hint system, at least in the first one, was great. Everytime I got stuck a hint seemed to pop up at the right time. Not too soon and not too long. The hint system kept the game moving for me. It also helped because sometimes I'd go a week before picking up the game again and would forget where I was supposed to go. And if you didn't like it you could turn it off.
I agree the key hunt at the end of Prime was a bit much. Altho I did have clues to most of them, I had to resort to GAmeFaQs for a couple of them. I wasn't going to wander around forever trying to find them.
The boost ball guardian in Echoes was tough? I have the boost ball and I don't remember him being that tough at all and I'm not that great at these kinds of games.
Post by: zakkiel on February 21, 2006, 07:12:34 AM
For morality, I can't take the Metroid stories seriously enough to give it much thought. Samus isn't a bounty hunter; she's a machine that kills bad guys, as MP2 clearly demonstrated. I spent a lot of that game hoping for a twist to redeem the nauseatingly simplistic "battered forces of good v. armies of evil" cliche. Oh well. I haven't finished it yet, maybe it's still waiting. And anyway, I don't play the games for the story.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 07:46:28 AM
Frankly, I didn't see ANY motivation from MP2. I'd like to THINK that the Luminoth perhaps remind Samus of the Chozo and as such she felt obliged to help them but that's only conjecture. She's going through an AWFUL lot, putting herself in harm's way, for no real reason other than her own personal motivation.
Then again, I think Samus' motives are supposed to be shrouded in mystery because that mystery is part of her character.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 21, 2006, 07:52:38 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 08:05:08 AM
Personally, I prefer characters who have their own attitude as well as voice acting. That way, it's like I'm playing WITH that character instead of AS them. Good examples of this are Solid Snake, Fox McCloud and Alex Roivas.
Post by: Ceric on February 21, 2006, 08:11:24 AM
I just like them to develop the things that we've been told instead of always forgetting them. But Nintendo is like that with a lot of there characters. Link is a jobless bum. Mario is a plumber that doesn't plumb. Samus is a Bounty Hunter that doesn't get paid. I mean the only ones who fit is the Starfox gang, you see there bill at the end, and F-Zero, Captian Falcon does drive a car.
Post by: Requiem on February 21, 2006, 08:12:39 AM
Metriod Prime is my favorite game of this generation.
The immersion is crazy. The way you scan an enemy and how x-ray scans and drawings would pop up all added to the immersion. Running through a water fall resulted in mist covering your visor and so on.
It was a well built game from top to bottom. My only complaint is the auto-aim system. While it worked beautifully, I felt like at some points it made the game easy and other parts harder. Now I feel with the REVmote, it can level the playing field so to speak. I can now blast three space pirates according to how well and how quick I aim rather than how fast I press lock-on and the fire button.
So, basically....I'm definitely looking forward to MP3
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on February 21, 2006, 10:28:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onix
-
And on the subject of Samus's character development, I think there won't be any more character development without more sexualization of her. Samus is sexy. She's not ugly. Making her more human (and less of a player-controlled robot) will only make her more sexy. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Who says she needs to be sexualized to let us see a better picture of her? Female heros don't need to be Laura Croft or Bloodrayne ripoffs, you know. In my opinion, her personality should be like her lifestyle: Hardend, grim, silent and lonely (but not sad about being alone). There's not much human in her, remember, she was orphined after a Space Pirate raid destroyed the colony she and her family were living on, and brought up with the Chozo as a warrior, even infused with their enhanced blood. She fights for he livelyhood. She doesn't curl up in a fetal position when faced with fear, even if that fear takes the shape of a 20-stories tall war-robot hell-bent on killing her at all costs.
Samus is one of the few female heroes who isn't sexualized. As a Metroid fan, I don't want her to be another Bloodrayne.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 21, 2006, 10:50:16 AM
Post by: Plugabugz on February 21, 2006, 10:58:44 AM
I wasn't fond of the samus art at the end of MP2, she looked almost plastic and barbie like in comparison to the first art in the previous game. In Prime she looked like a woman for a brief moment you can see a little emotion on her face, and then in Echoes she's throwing her weave about the camera.
Post by: Artimus on February 21, 2006, 11:23:42 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on February 21, 2006, 11:26:53 AM
Morphball?
Samus doesn't really have a personality. Nintendo wanted to make a sidescrolling game where the game is one big level and you explore and find items to allow you to access more areas. Games can't just look like Pong so they needed a setting and picked space. They needed some sort of main character so they used a dude in a space suit. A game is more marketable if it has some sort of basic story so they came up with some generic stuff to fill a few pages in the manual. The enemies were called Metroids and Space Pirates and the spaceman was called Samus Aran. The bounty hunter background just makes things a little more interesting and probably no real thought was put into it. Then they made it so that the ending of the game revealed that the spaceman was actually a woman. It was probably thought of as a neat twist and there were no real plans yet for a sequel or anything like that.
So exploring Samus' bounty hunter backgrounds makes about as much sense as Mario laying pipe. She just comes from an era where all that we needed for story was "you're a ninja and you kill bad guys to save someone or something".
"Does Metroid need Metroids?"
I think as long as the game involves Samus exploring an alien planet then there is no need for Metroids. Super Metroid doesn't even have any Metroids at all until the last part of the game. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening has no Zelda but it still works, even if the name no longer makes sense. I wouldn't mind no Metroids. Right now the Prime storyline takes place between Metroid and Metroid II which as they make more games is going to get pretty silly. How much stuff occured between those two events? Plus it's getting kind of stupid for the pirates to keep resurrecting Ridley. It's assumed that the main sequels will continue with the 2D games and Metroid Prime will remain a spin-off so really the only time period that has a lot of wiggle room for Retro is pre-Metroid. That means no space pirates and no Metroids. I wouldn't care and I doubt the game would sell worse considering the brand name really isn't that strong with the mainstream anyway. If they feel the need to have a Metroid they could have an "unidentified" creature as a boss that is clearly a Metroid though is not referred to as such in the scans.
Storylinewise it's getting silly for Samus to lose all her stuff again and again as well. A major challenge would be to start a Metroid game with everything and then have entirely new stuff as the upgrades. They could even make it so that the bad guys designed their base with Samus in mind so her abilities aren't very useful but for some dumb reason they built their base on old Chozo ruins.
Post by: trip1eX on February 21, 2006, 11:26:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I kinda figured that as well. The "cipher" issue rears its ugly head with Link, Samus and a few others in the Nintendo universe.
Personally, I prefer characters who have their own attitude as well as voice acting. That way, it's like I'm playing WITH that character instead of AS them. Good examples of this are Solid Snake, Fox McCloud and Alex Roivas.
Oh man I'm the opposite. I think Nintendo is spot on with LInk, Samus and Mario..... It's totally more immersive when I'm the hero instead of me playing some guy who's talking for me and doing things for me. Most of the time those characters are way too corny for me to handle.
PLus those types of games are usually heavy on the cutscenes where all you're doing is sitting there and watching them. Those games turn me off.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 21, 2006, 11:34:21 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 21, 2006, 11:40:21 AM
You've obviously never played Super Metroid or Metroid Fusion. We see some emotion at the end of MP1, presumably for the Chozo temple. We see some for the marines in MP2. We see little, of course, because she's always in the suit, and she is hardened and ruthless. But it's there, it's just this thing that some of us like to call subtlety.
In regards to sexualization, I think the point Ruby was trying to make was that a female form, especially an attractive one (which Samus is), has some amount of inherent sexuality, and it's something that you're going to see occasionally, at least when she takes off the suit. It's not overly sexualized, like Lara Croft and Bloodrayne, but its existence can't be denied.
"I wasn't fond of the samus art at the end of MP2, she looked almost plastic and barbie like in comparison to the first art in the previous game. In Prime she looked like a woman for a brief moment you can see a little emotion on her face, and then in Echoes she's throwing her weave about the camera."
Agreed on this point, though not on the map one. I love the map system.
Post by: wandering on February 21, 2006, 11:41:58 AM
Quote
Storylinewise it's getting silly for Samus to lose all her stuff again and again as well. A major challenge would be to start a Metroid game with everything and then have entirely new stuff as the upgrades. They could even make it so that the bad guys designed their base with Samus in mind so her abilities aren't very useful but for some dumb reason they built their base on old Chozo ruins.
I agree with this completley. One of the reasons Majora's Mask is my all-time favorite video game sequal is that they took what was there from the first game and ran off in a different direction, instead of just trying to re-create the first game.
Quote
Seriously...I especially hate it with FPSers, because you're in the eyes of the character, yet in cutscenes you are no longer part of it...It really takes away from the experience for me...
You mean, like the ones in Prime?
Post by: Ian Sane on February 21, 2006, 11:43:20 AM
I find this too, even for a games Metroid and Zelda. It seems that too often these days the natural instinct of a developer is to take any part of the game where the player can't control anything and make it like a movie with the most dramatic camera angles and such. I think that takes away from the game. In Super Metroid when Kraid rises up and shows how huge he is you can't move but the games still looks exactly the same. So it feels more like I'm experiencing it instead of watching it. I think it would be much cooler to walk into the "arena" and have the boss just pop out of their hiding spot without any pause or introduction. In fact if I happen to be looking the wrong way I don't see him pop up, I just start getting hit from behind. I think that would be much more scary than some dramatic cutscene to introduce the boss.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 11:44:12 AM
Ganondorf is probably the only Nintendo villain I can take seriously because he acts and talks the part of what he intends to do. Bowser is just a "bully" villain and Metroid games lack a true nemesis for Samus aside from Ridley which never had any explanation that I can recall from MP1.
In MGS, the villains are organized and that makes them more intimidating because I've learned that the only thing people will truly fear is something which they know is smarter and better prepared than they are, especially in movies and gaming.
Remember, the hero will only ever be as impressive as the villains he/she faces.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 21, 2006, 11:57:27 AM
Gee, my incentive usually is "this thing is going to kill me unless I kill it first." Typically my hatred for a game villian is based on how difficult it is to beat him. I hate him more if I've died on him a few times.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 12:08:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
You've obviously never played Super Metroid or Metroid Fusion. We see some emotion at the end of MP1, presumably for the Chozo temple. We see some for the marines in MP2. We see little, of course, because she's always in the suit, and she is hardened and ruthless. But it's there, it's just this thing that some of us like to call subtlety.
No, I never played the originals, nor do I think that doing so should be a prerequisite for enjoying the Prime games.
As for subtlety and ciphers, I think it's the cowardly way out of handling a character. Rather than risking developing a character and presenting to the audience a personality they might not like, they choose to instead chicken out completely and leave the character as blank as an unused canvas. The minor emotions these characters demonstrate is only apparent because they're "safe" in regards to not being able to read terribly much into them: no one will be "mad" at Samus for a twinge of sadness, nor will they scowl at Link for saluting a giant skeleton warrior in dismissal.
I don't like ciphers. I never have and I never will. My favorite games have always been those with characters who aren't uncharacteristically silent for fear of alienating the audience. Games with ciphers don't risk their sales with characters which lack "universal appeal" but as a result, my connection to those games never transcends the realm of "entertainment medium" into something more engaging.
Games where a character actually has an opinion, personality and a voice do risk alienating some of the audience, but in exchange for that risk, that is a game which people who relate to the character will carry with them for far longer than a game with a cipher-protagonist.
After all of my friends had completed Eternal Darkness, we actually discussed the imagery, the implications of what the ancients were, some of the loose ends in the plot, the characters and their depth, and whether or not there was a colossal secret ending which none of us had found. Same with MGS, same with Phoenix Wright.
You just can't do that with a great deal of games because, when the lead character has no implied personality, there's nothing to relate to.
Clinging to an empty shell and saying, "Well, maybe there's really something inside it after all!" is the epitome of sadness.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 12:13:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Gee, my incentive usually is "this thing is going to kill me unless I kill it first." Typically my hatred for a game villian is based on how difficult it is to beat him. I hate him more if I've died on him a few times.
That's fair, but I don't recall many last bosses from recent memory which take many tries (Pious didn't, either).
Makes me miss the days of Konami games like Rocket Knight Adventures which boasted great and difficult bosses which had no regrets about being hard as all hell.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 21, 2006, 12:51:18 PM
You shouldn't have to play the originals to enjoy the Prime games but I think if you haven't played the original games you can't complain about Samus' personality. I know that sounds kind of immature but I think it's important that the Metroid games take into account the desires of Metroid fans first and foremost. Most Metroid fans would be really turned off to have Samus develop a really distinct personality just as Zelda fans would be turned off by Link talking. So Nintendo shouldn't do it. That's why I've been very hostile towards Metroid Prime Hunters because to me they're making a Metroid game for people who aren't Metroid fans. If someone doesn't get Metroid then tough sh!t. So at the same time if you don't like Samus as a character and you're not even familiar with the original games, tough.
Though the real issue here is that there are two big differing points of view in regards to game design. Some people care only about the gaming experience while others want to hear a good story. If you're in the story group then Samus is going to be pretty boring but if you're in the gameplay group you can't stand games where you watch everything and have no real choice over your own actions. My general attitude is if I want to see a movie I'll pay a couple bucks at the theatre instead of paying $50 and being made to work for my movie, which is usually laughably poor in the first place. Gaming is probably the worst choice of medium for telling a story since user interaction affects the author's control. So I say since gaming provides the option for user interaction it should make the most of it and focus on providing an experience for the player. There should be some setting and plot in the background to spice up the experience but it should feel like it's your experience.
Post by: Ceric on February 21, 2006, 01:56:14 PM
Post by: Mario on February 21, 2006, 02:45:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Seriously...I especially hate it with FPSers, because you're in the eyes of the character, yet in cutscenes you are no longer part of it...It really takes away from the experience for me...
Good thing FPS games aren't about story and/or immersion.
Post by: Galford on February 21, 2006, 03:16:25 PM
Nintendo needs to do something. Look at Fusion, when the game starts we find out Samus isn't human anymore. By the time the game ends, we find out that she has been left for dead and double crossed by the very people she was working for. Nintendo now has a golden opportunity to take the series in a new direction.
Also about the map and backtracking, if you don't like doing it, go play Metroid 2.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 03:18:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Gaming is probably the worst choice of medium for telling a story since user interaction affects the author's control.
I couldn't possibly disagree more.
I have never had a movie plot rope me in the same way I've been drawn in by games like Eternal Darkness, Phoenix Wright and Deus Ex where the player is pulled into the middle of the events. It's BECAUSE my actions dictate the outcome that these games are so incredibly great.
This, IMHO, is why survival horrors like Resident Evil will work in game form but tend to suck in movie form: remove interactivity and there's nothing left. RE has the effect it has over players because your actions are what determine the outcome. When your character dies, it's YOUR fault, YOU got them killed because you didn't react in time. In the movie, how can you bring yourself to care about a character when they'll likely blunder into their own demise?
I think games are a BETTER storytelling device than movies and books combined because they can bring the player to a point where the reader and the audience will never reach: the point where they are responsible.
I readily admit that 95% of games out there do not strive to reach this goal, even those that do boast story, but the ones that reach said goal give me experiences that I will NEVER forget, experiences which I will talk to my friends about afterwards and make references and jokes, even.
I'm not saying that cipher games are bad games or don't have a place in the market, it's just that I feel they absolutely pale in comparison to a game with a solid storyline which involves the player to the extent where they care about the outcome of the game.
Granted, games can do this and still be cypher games: Wind Waker and OoT both made you care because there was so much drama behind the storyline and so much "riding" on your success.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that stories in games (that try) are often better than those in movies these days and I don't think that's JUST because hollywood sucks right now (although it does). I think pulling a person into a storyline is far more likely if they are an active participant in its outcome.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 03:20:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
Good thing FPS games aren't about story and/or immersion.
That's a sweeping generalization.
Play Deus Ex, Half-Life 2 or Geist.
All three have better stories than what passes for good movies these days.
Post by: zakkiel on February 21, 2006, 03:42:21 PM
I'm just gonna go ahead and register my disagreement with that now. And I agree with Ian; it's almost impossible to tell a good story and have a good game. The plot has to be lose and vague enough that you spend most of your time not worrying about it and getting on with the actual game. I can't think of a single video-game plot that would be even slightly palatable in any other medium.
That's not the same as saying that a video game story can't be just as compelling; the fact that you are participating adds a powerful element. But this is despite the raw mechanics of the plot, not because of them.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 03:54:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel
I'm just gonna go ahead and register my disagreement with that now. And I agree with Ian; it's almost impossible to tell a good story and have a good game. The plot has to be lose and vague enough that you spend most of your time not worrying about it and getting on with the actual game. I can't think of a single video-game plot that would be even slightly palatable in any other medium.
That's not the same as saying that a video game story can't be just as compelling; the fact that you are participating adds a powerful element. But this is despite the raw mechanics of the plot, not because of them.
Care to cough up some counter-examples? What movies featured a similar plot which pulled you into it to anywhere near the same level as these games did?
MGS told an excellent story and had awesome gameplay to boot: it reminded me of the days when games weren't afraid to be challenging without fear that the mass audience would bitch the developer out for making it too hard for the lowest tier of gamer.
Phoenix Wright was a effectively a puzzle game which tested your deductive logic and, in doing so, made going after each guilty murderer a personal ordeal: when it's your brain vs. the game, how can it not be personal?
Deus Ex was a FPS which a plot so intricate that it touched upon theology and the corruption of the power structure before it was over. It was a game in which every single person who was close to your character would die...OR you could figure out how to save their lives. Then, in the end, you were being influenced by three separate forces and could choose any of the three endings, whichever suited you, all the while developing your character's abilities how you saw fit in an RPG-style (shame Deus Ex 2 sucked so badly...).
Geist managed to make it feel like every time you figured out a way to push through an area, you had accomplished something. This was actually true to an extent because there were multiple ways to accomplish most every objective. The story was a bit cheesy but I maintain that it's better than 90% of the maggot-infested filth that hollywood regurgitates on us every year.
These games are rarities, I know, but they do a damn better job than most movies of grabbing their audience and making them care about the experience.
Post by: trip1eX on February 21, 2006, 04:21:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel
...... it's almost impossible to tell a good story and have a good game. The plot has to be lose and vague enough that you spend most of your time not worrying about it and getting on with the actual game. ......
Definitely agree here. My favorite vidgame stories are mostly the vague ones with the main character who doesn't talk like Zelda, Metroid, HL2, etc. The things I do are the story. The bad guys I kill. The secrets I uncover. The equipment I find. The information I dig up. The doors I open. yada yada yada. That's the story. What I do in the game. That's what immerses me. The interactivity of it all. I don't mind a story within that framework of doing.
IN HL2 the npcs talk with you at various points in the game and you find out bits of info from the guy on the videoscreen, etc.
In Metroid Prime, you find out what happened thru the use of your scanner. You find out about the world. About the death and destruction. IT's all pretty vague, but it makes you feel like you're doing something and experiencing something.
IN Zelda you find out a little background info here and there from the characters at least in the last game. (I can't say I've played many Zeldas yet.) IT's never too much of passive experience tho where you are left hanging watching a movie.
Cutscenes remind me of those lazy teachers in high school that would always play a video or movie instead of teaching. INstead of getting some interaction going with the class they'd take the easy way out and join pop in a vid. That was boring. A time to nod off. Well it's the same with games at least for me.
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 21, 2006, 04:25:37 PM
You don't watch enough good movies.
I haven't played much of MGS, but from what little I've seen and what I've heard, the story is actually rather ridiculous. The gameplay didn't look spectacular to me, either, but that's another issue entirely.
Also, I think you're too hard on movies. First off, it's a sweeping generalization to say that Hollywood churns out filth; I'd say more crap games come out than crap movies. In the past year we've seen Jarhead, Brokeback Mountain, Crash, 40 Year Old Virgin, Wedding Crashers, A History of Violence, Munich, Lion Witch and the Wardrobe, and several other great movies. All of these are Hollywood caliber movies and they're all (by either my seeing them or word of mouth) very good films. It's easy to see Big Momma's House 2 and say all Hollywood movies suck, but the fact is that's just not true.
Now I'm not arguing that these games aren't better than some films. But games have several advantages that movies do not. They can be up to 50 or so hours long, if the developers so choose, rather than just two. They have optional side stories. That's a lot more potential content and storytelling time.
I consider all creative mediums to be equal, and the individual products of those mediums have varying quality. It's true that a lot of story-driven games are lacking in gameplay: Eternal Darkness and Killer 7 are both exquisite stories with mediocre gameplay.
"These games are rarities, I know, but they do a damn better job than most movies of grabbing their audience and making them care about the experience."
Full Metal Jacket grabbed me more, far more, than any war game I've ever played, period.
Pulp Fiction and Snatch and Layer Cake and Resevoir Dogs and Lock Stock and Goodfellas and the Godfather far more than any crime game that I've ever played.
On the other hand, Killer 7 is the most weird, psychadelic experience I've ever had with a creative work. And I've seen Godard and read House of Leaves and Tom Wolfe's The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, Donald Barthelme and all the rest.
Metroid Prime one of the most immersive faux-realities I've experienced, and one of the most interesting methods of storytelling I've encountered.
Link's Awakening is one of the most powerful endings I've ever seen, one of the most memorable experiences I've ever had overall with any sort of creative work.
One's no better than the other, it all depends.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 21, 2006, 04:58:15 PM
I find though that rarely do my actions dictate the outcome in story-heavy games. I like MGS. It's a lot of fun. But it felt more like I was an actor playing Solid Snake then a spy trying to stop terrorists. Everything was so planned and structured. It was like Kojima was telling me "okay in this scene Snake does this" and then I did it and watched a cut scene and the next pre-planned gameplay sequence occured. I find with gaming if the dev wants to really control the story they need to greatly limit what the player can do so you feel more like you're watching then playing. But if you let the player have more control then you have less control over the story. That's why I think gaming is a weak storytelling medium. If you want a lot of control over what happens you have to make a crappy game.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 21, 2006, 05:43:25 PM
MGS isn't even the best example. Deus Ex is THE prime example because it's a game where you will likely only ever watch half of the cutscenes because you chose your own path to take and in doing so alter the path you take through the game dramatically.
Here's where I think I'm lost on the whole situation...
The simple fact is, games are always going to end. From the beginning of the game to the end of the game is where I will either find some form of entertainment or yawn so hard that I have to put down the controller for fear of the onset of a coma. I like puzzles. I like puzzles but I like enemies that in themselves are puzzles, usually only found in bosses during your struggle to defeat them.
If the game is not engaging my mind, it is losing me. Either it's doing something interesting, making me glad I can pay attention to the game and not listen to any of the sh*t going on in my head, or it's boring me, making me wonder if I could slay the clerk/reviewer who recommended it and evade detection.
The reason why I object to games in which I have to collect piles of worthless items or walk back and forth over the same areas repeatedly is that, as a man who craves mental stimulation, they starve me of it for long periods of time, only giving the next payoff in the form of a boss fight, a room with an intricate puzzle or a cutscene which forces me to snap out of the near slumber and act.
I love games with strong storylines because, whether or not I'm interacting with the game at the time, I'm being told a good story which moves at whatever pace I want to see and even reacts to my decisions. It's engaging, even if I'm not controlling my character, what's happening in the screen is something worth paying attention to and will keep me motivated to push further into the story.
I've played just about every type of game in existence to death. There is nothing that someone could present to me which I haven't seen done in some form or another (hence why I look forward to the Rev and upcoming DS titles). I liked MP1 because it was something new when it was introduced. MP2 didn't go over as well because it was simply more of the same from MP1. In order for a game to be playable in my eyes, it has to engage me somehow, and since I'm familiar with most every form of gameplay offered in this day and again, often a strong story with frequent plot is the only way to accomplish that.
But to each their own. I'm not telling you what to enjoy or NOT to enjoy, I'm just saying why I enjoy what I do enjoy and vice versa.
Post by: Strell on February 21, 2006, 07:41:47 PM
Did none of you play Chrono Trigger, FF4/6, Earthbound, Loom, Day of the Tentacle, Indigo Prophecy, Beyond Good and Evil....
I could do this for a while, you know.
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 21, 2006, 08:15:41 PM
Post by: wandering on February 21, 2006, 08:41:47 PM
Killing badguys and saving princesses is exciting when you're the one doing it...but, in the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of stories about a lot of killing...and your particular experience with zelda isn't, frankly, all that interesting.
Could a videogame provide a good story? Where your character had deep motivations and every human being and piece of architecture has a long history and what you are doing in the game is actually intersting? Of course. And I'd consider games like that to be good stories. Stories that change with each telling, sure...but then, most good stories do.
A game like that wouldn't be like time you visited the grand canyon. It would be like the time you divorced your wife because she had connections to the reggie mafia. Or something.
Unfortunatley, most people's ideas of 'games with good stories' are games where you have to sit through 20 minute cut scenes that, by movie standards, are downright mediocre.
But we're getting there.
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 21, 2006, 09:28:07 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 21, 2006, 11:06:06 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 22, 2006, 04:59:40 AM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I think it's funny to see SB complain about "ciphers" while praising Half-Life 2 which has the ultimate cipher. Gordon Freeman has a name, nothing else. Originally they didn't even want to show you what he looks like but unfortunately there were elements in HL1 MP that did.
You caught me: I never played the game.
I've had a reliable friend praise it and he's not the type to dig a game without a decent story.
Also, I do praise Zelda as a game with an excellent story. OoT was my first Zelda game and it was all in all just incredible, despite the fact that Link is a cipher. I also loved the cutscenes in WW, the most memorable being when the giant bird was holding Link up for "you know who" to see, and he makes a gesture to the horizon and the bird flings you halfway across the world.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 22, 2006, 05:03:29 AM
Post by: thejeek on February 22, 2006, 05:40:09 AM
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 22, 2006, 06:42:04 AM
I do want to clarify that I was not implying that Samus has been greedy in past games or that she should act greedily in future games. But going the Han Solo route is the only way I can think to push the bounty hunter role (which, as has been noted many times, Nintendo has never pursued whatsoever until MP:Hunters) without destroying her characterization from past games. Retro could, alternatively, continue to ignore the bounty hunter thing, or write it out in favor of something else (soldier in the GF). A year ago, they were actively discussing these issues and were very concerned about how fans would deal with changes to her character. My response was designed to provide the most potential for expansion of her character while preserving the most consistency with her previous actions. Although Samus has never been directly shown to be greedy, or pretending to be greedy, she is ostensibly a BOUNTY HUNTER. In the Star Wars context, which was the producer's choice and not mine, the obvious comparison is Boba Fett, which would be a terrible template for expanding/rewriting Samus's character. Han Solo is a smuggler who engages in some of the same activities as Fett (sometimes as self-defense, as in the cantina), but his true motives are completely different.
Post by: trip1eX on February 22, 2006, 06:46:15 AM
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
In order for a game to be playable in my eyes, it has to engage me somehow, and since I'm familiar with most every form of gameplay offered in this day and again, often a strong story with frequent plot is the only way to accomplish that.
IF you're bored of gameplay mechanics and need a good story & plot then why play videogames? You're going to find better stories elsewhere.
One gets tired of stories too when you've read a ton of books and watched a ton of movies. AFter that stooping to cheesy videogame stories for 15 yr olds get old man.
Also 20hours to watch a couple hours of cutscenes doesn't seem worth it. Rent a movie instead.
I mean you're tired of gameplay mechanics anyway.Anyway yeah to each their own. Personally, when it comes down to it, I like the ability of videogames to make me the star. I'm the one who has to solve the puzzle. Kill the bad guy. Find the key. yada yada yada.
I like the active experience. That doesn't mean there's not a story. I mean Metroid Prime has a story. But the way you find it and experience is up to you for the most part. Same with HL2. And Zelda. Their method of design keeps me locked in.
GAmes are like visiting the Grand Canyon. They're an experience. They're also like solving a math problem in school. You know the satisfaction and stimulation you get from figuring out the answer. That's the stuff that grabs me. Passive stories? Other mediums do that better and take up less of your time in doing so.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 22, 2006, 07:10:10 AM
I'm not. My arguement is just that games aren't really a good medium for telling a story. Some games have good stories and manage to have good gameplay but it's a rarity. I'm of the idea that if you're a gamer or a developer and story is your main focus then you probably have the wrong interest. Literature or film would probably be more up your alley.
Check out today's Penny Arcade comic for a good example of the problems with story focused games. Funny stuff and reason number one why I'm bored of RPGs.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 22, 2006, 08:42:49 AM
I think that's the strength of Half-Life, the script never demands that your character does something you don't want to do, it still makes you do things but it does so by having e.g. a character come up to you and tell you that you have to get into the teleporter. If an enemy gets away he does so because it's impossible to stop him, not because a cutscene made you stand and stare while he kidnaps your girlfriend and runs off laughing (sorry, Final Fantasy comparisons coming up again).
Post by: zakkiel on February 22, 2006, 09:36:20 AM
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What movies featured a similar plot which pulled you into it to anywhere near the same level as these games did?
You're talking past me, not to me. I explicitly said these game stories can be just as immersive, if not more, than any other medium, but that's because of one unique advantage in video games: you're the one doing the action. When you really try to use a book- or movie-level plot in a video game, it constrains your action so much that it loses that critical advantage. Further, a video game is built around a few select types of action that constitute the real game - shooting, slashing, opening, moving, what have you. Thus a game has to be pretty repetitive. This level of repetition would be boring beyond belief in a movie or book. When you talk about a game's story, you're really just extracting certain tidbits while ignoring the bulk of the game. Even a plot-intensive game like ED (which is basically just a collection of Lovecraftian tropes and underdeveloped side characters suffering one gruesome fate or another) is still 90%+ fighting monsters and solving puzzles.
I didn't offer any counterexamples because all three of the games you mentioned would make terrible movies and worse books. MGS is like a parody as far as I'm concerned, HL2 has almost no story elements, and Deus Ex as a movie would be worse than the second Matrix, particularly in terms of prentiousness. Besides which, insofar as you are making the decisions, the game is not telling a story. Having the characters under the authors control is practically the defining element of stories.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 22, 2006, 11:06:50 AM
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Originally posted by: trip1eX
You're going to find better stories elsewhere.
No, I'm not. I know that because I've spent time looking.
Furthermore, in case this fact somehow slipped by everyone, I'm stating that a game can pull you into its plot to a greater extent than any movie or book if the game can personally involve the player, making them feel like a part of the story.
Single player games lacking story are like running on a treadmill: if the puzzles, monsters and challenges are just there for the sole sake of the player overcoming them with no pretense of motivation, then why bother?
I look forward to TP because I know it WILL be a game rich with story, and I often question whether or not Link will die at the end of the game because, from what I hear, this is supposed to be a prequel to WW, and as we know from the intro of WW, the hero disappeared and did not return when Ganon came back to claim Hyrule.
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I didn't offer any counterexamples because all three of the games you mentioned would make terrible movies and worse books. MGS is like a parody as far as I'm concerned, HL2 has almost no story elements, and Deus Ex as a movie would be worse than the second Matrix, particularly in terms of prentiousness. Besides which, insofar as you are making the decisions, the game is not telling a story. Having the characters under the authors control is practically the defining element of stories.
You confuse my meaning. I didn't ask you to imagine these games as movies or books: that NEVER works.
I asked if you could name some movies which rope you in the same way. I can name a few, but I've still yet to have anything top some of the games I've played. LOTR, the FIRST Matrix movie, Syriana... these are all movies that do their best to put the audience IN the movie so they feel involved, but even these cannot come close to a scenario where the audience has interactive control over the events.
But again, I'm not here to tell people what to enjoy or not. I'm looking forward to the Rev because it's at least hope that gaming will be changing for the better.
And I agree with Ian that RPGs are wearing thin. They all seem to have the same basic plot with a few variables here and there and most of those plots aren't even very good or engaging.
Post by: Fro on February 22, 2006, 11:49:35 AM
I want to be Samus and accept bounty hunting missions. I want to visit Space Stations, get information and buy equipment upgrades. I want to be able to get in Samus's spaceship and fly around. Some vehicles (well-done of course), for sections of the game would be great as well.
Something like HL2 with NPCs who talk to you while you're still in a first person perspective would be great.
There's a way to do all that while still keeping true to the spirit of the original games.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 22, 2006, 11:56:47 AM
Well I don't think anyone is suggesting to not have a story outright. I just personally feel that I don't need much of a background story for motivation beyond something very basic.
Here's my idea of good game story:
'You are Argrim, the last of the warrior race of the Shinok. The grand wizard Thulsa-Savage has discovered the Wand of Wisdom and has used his new found power to overthrow the king and dominate over the lands of Rehm. You must come forth from your home in the caves and travel across Rehm to find the seven Crystals of Courage. Only when all seven Crystals are formed together can you gain the power needed to defeat Thulsa-Savage. Go forth for Rehm is counting on you!"
That's pretty generic but for me that would be enough provided the adventure between was entertaining. There's a basic plot and you would encounter interesting enemies along the way and see strange locales but as a narrative it's pretty weak.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 22, 2006, 12:09:24 PM
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Originally posted by: Fro
I want to be Samus and accept bounty hunting missions. I want to visit Space Stations, get information and buy equipment upgrades. I want to be able to get in Samus's spaceship and fly around. Some vehicles (well-done of course), for sections of the game would be great as well.
Holy CRAP that would rule...
"As Samus Aran, the infamous bounty hunter, you must track down your target through any violent and extreme means necessary:
-Enjoy slaughtering innocent alien bystanders who know nothing of your bounty but unfortunately happened to be standing between you and those who do!
-Torture captured alien thugs for information, with a torture chamber which can be improved through the purchase of upgrades!
-Dead or alive? It's all up to the contractor who put the bounty on their heads in the first place, but within an inch of their life is STILL technically live!"
In all seriousness, a game which combined detective work with action sequences set in the Metroid universe would be just about the greatest thing ever.
Post by: zakkiel on February 22, 2006, 12:26:21 PM
QuoteBut I've already said twice that games could conceivably rope you in in a way movies or books can't. That's not how you measure the worth of the story. To get a sense of how strong a story is, we should just ask "Could this story succeed in anything but a game?" My answer is definitely no, at least not the stories of good games. n any medium that relied on story alone to keep your attention, game stories would fail. They work in video games because there's so much else going on besides story.
I asked if you could name some movies which rope you in the same way. I can name a few, but I've still yet to have anything top some of the games I've played.
Post by: Shecky on February 22, 2006, 01:18:41 PM
I think it's good to note (and thus recognize) some of the changes MP2 make over MP to benefit the experience so that they're not reverted in further sequels.
For example, one major plus of MP2 over MP (contains end game snipits):
Metroid Prime had a very frustrating segments of flip the visor/weapon. In particular the end boss and the visor/weapon madness that accompanied it. MP2 was much better in this regard... employing the visors in battle, but never in a way that was frustrating.
Post by: Galford on February 22, 2006, 01:43:11 PM
Fro, I do like the traveling to other space stations/planets bit.
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 22, 2006, 02:06:40 PM
You have never read a book, attended a play, or watched a movie, have you? Games lack so much that can be found in these: complex characters (very few games have them), symbolism (can't think of any game, offhand, that utilized any metaphor or deeper storytelling techniques), social or political commentary, and more. I've yet to find a game that rivals something like Hamlet or 1984 or Catcher in the Rye in terms of sheer depth and meaning (though I have played games that rival the genius, just in terms of game design rather than story, which is what is important to a game). And I'll be the first to enjoy and appreciate and praise a story that doesn't necessarily have "deeper meaning", but even most books and movies that lack this have superior stories.
I'm not saying a game is incapable of this. I'm merely saying they seldom, if ever (I cannot think of an example), bother to make a complex and meaningful story.
Ian is right about game narratives. Most people interested in telling a narrative story go toward writing or something, rather than gaming; those mediums are better suited for it. I work on creative writing and film, and I really like games and would like to make them, but I realize that games are, above all, about game design. So I stick to what I'm good at, which is narrative.
Stories in games are basically people who make games giving an actual narrative their best shot. Some games pull it off really well, because really talented game designers can do that. But their true skill lies in game design, not storytelling.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on February 22, 2006, 02:36:07 PM
Post by: trip1eX on February 22, 2006, 02:44:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherQuote
Originally posted by: trip1eX
You're going to find better stories elsewhere.
No, I'm not. I know that because I've spent time looking.
Furthermore, in case this fact somehow slipped by everyone, I'm stating that a game can pull you into its plot to a greater extent than any movie or book if the game can personally involve the player, making them feel like a part of the story.
Single player games lacking story are like running on a treadmill: if the puzzles, monsters and challenges are just there for the sole sake of the player overcoming them with no pretense of motivation, then why bother?
I look forward to TP because I know it WILL be a game rich with story, and I often question whether or not Link will die at the end of the game because, from what I hear, this is supposed to be a prequel to WW, and as we know from the intro of WW, the hero disappeared and did not return when Ganon came back to claim Hyrule.
Well you haven't spent anytime looking for good stories if you think videogames are where stories are at.
But hey some folks like the stories in porn movies so to each their own.The motivation for playing games is being the hero. Who doesn't dream of being a hero?
I don't think Zelda is a game rich with story. Altho I do think it's rich with atmosphere and feeling. It's a perfect videogame story. It's fairly vague. It's a basic save the world story. IT also is mostly told thru a 1st person point of view. And the satisfaction of Zelda: Wind Waker for me was being the one to solve the puzzles and defeat the monsters and help save the world. If the story was the main purpose I'd go watch the Hobbit or something.
It doesn't take much to tap into my desire to help people.
Anyway Zelda is different from say Eternal Darkness because in the latter you were really playing to see how the story unfolds in the cutscenes. There's a bit of a disconnect there. ON the contrary I didn't play Zelda to see what's going to happen to so and so. I played it to successly help out so and so and ultimately find a way to save the world.
I think Metroid Prime had about as much story as a Zelda did tho yeah there's almost zero npcs in the game. That's because it's a mostly 'solitary' type of story. The lone bounty hunter sent to a ravaged world in deep space by herself to track a bad guy and in turn help save the world or whatever the story is.
So I don't think ZElda:TP supports your case much. I think it's more of an example of the type of 1st person vague story game I enjoy.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 22, 2006, 05:39:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Galford
Smash Brother, you're version of Metroid was already made. Except it was called GTA3.
Umm, I WAS kidding about the violence parts...
But I think actually having Samus hunt some bounties instead of just toting the title would be a good idea. You know, something to pay the bills. Track down some intergalactic criminals and bring them in for a handsome reward, that sort of thing.
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You have never read a book, attended a play, or watched a movie, have you?
If you're not going to read my posts, I'm not going to bother reading yours, either.
For the LAST time: it's the interactive element of the story which I enjoy. When they let me jump on stage and break up the murder scene in Othello, then I'll give credence to the theory. And I've done more theater than likely anyone at PGC.
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I think Metroid Prime had about as much story as a Zelda did tho yeah there's almost zero npcs in the game. That's because it's a mostly 'solitary' type of story. The lone bounty hunter sent to a ravaged world in deep space by herself to track a bad guy and in turn help save the world or whatever the story is.
Umm, what?
Link is having this adventure unfold right before his eyes. Samus is an archaeologist by comparison, reading up on facts about the dead and stories of all this space pirate activity which you never actually see happen. Where are these space pirate researchers? Where are these mining crews? I'd like to see some types of space pirates which turn tail and run at the sight of you. God knows, they should.
I don't think Zelda and Metroid should be compared on the basis of storyline, considering how Zelda could actually elicit tears with some of its cutscenes. The story in Metroid is there, sure, but you're basically just reading it, and it's optional. I don't think the comparison can be made.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 22, 2006, 05:52:05 PM
