Post by: nemo_83 on February 11, 2006, 11:58:00 PM
MS and Sony claim HD is the entry fee for next gen; they believe pixel numbers are more important than polygon numbers and lighting effects. Nintendo seems confident that "graphics" have hit a ceiling. They believe HD is not the answer, but do they also believe that raw graphics are not important either? What if their system not only doesn't support HD but can't even match the other console's in SD? I would hope they are dodging HD to either have better raw effects or to have 3D.
The following is my evidence in favor of polygon numbers (shape), color, transparency effects, and lighting over pixel numbers and HD mapping techniques.
Nintendo refuses to show pics or vids of graphics of Revolution games because, they claim, the last secret (some technology we are still in the dark on that is suppossed to be as revolutionary as the controller) will affect how the importance of the graphics is judged by the industry. Translation, the raw graphical effects on 360 underwhelmed a lot of people, the Revolution may underwhelm people, but how the Revolution graphics are viewed will make the difference.
Idealy in my opinion the console would launch with Metroid, it would be online, have three times the polygons of characters in MP2 or RE4, three times the lighting effects of Doon3 on Xbox, three times the surface effects of the Doom engine, three times the amount of AI in Halo, and three times the open areas of Zelda TP.
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 12, 2006, 12:08:43 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on February 12, 2006, 12:18:50 AM
Looks like the Kart is coming out of the screen. from the recent leak
Post by: DrZoidberg on February 12, 2006, 02:07:27 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2006, 03:25:46 AM
Post by: Darkheart on February 12, 2006, 06:02:45 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2006, 06:16:52 AM
Post by: pudu on February 12, 2006, 06:26:26 AM
Post by: trip1eX on February 12, 2006, 06:37:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
Nintendo refuses to show pics or vids of graphics of Revolution games because, they claim, the last secret (some technology we are still in the dark on that is suppossed to be as revolutionary as the controller) will affect how the importance of the graphics is judged by the industry.
That's not true. Nintendo doesn't claim their last secret will how affect how important graphics are. They have merely said there is another secret to the Revolution.
Here's why NIntendo stayed at 480p.
1. No one has hdtv yet.
2. Many 480p sets look just as good as hi-def TVs.
3. Viewing distance and screen size greatly affect whether you'll even notice the difference between 720p and 480p.
4. IT's cheaper.
1. The most optimistic estimates have 25% of households with an hdtv by the end of the year. Still not all those households are going to be gaming households. Consdering most households have multiple TVs, the chances that you're going to be gaming on an hdtv even if you have one are even slimmer than the chances of your household having one.
2. NOw this isn't something that's in the conventional wisdom. But many 480p sets have better color and contrast and sharpness than the crappier true hi-def sets. This tho goes hand in hand with #3. Consumer Reports recently said they'd take the best EDTV over the lesser rated hdtvs.
3. Estimates that I've read say you need a 68" screen from 9' away to make out all the details in 720p. What am I saying? The farther you sit away from the screen and the smaller the screen is, the greater the chances are that hi-def won't look that much better. If you sit 9' feet away and have a small TV then you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between 720p and 480p. IT's one reason consoles don't look that bad at 480p while 480p on my pc monitor looks like crap. You're generally farher away from a TV. With hdtv you have to be even closer to get the full benefit.
4. Obviously it costs less if you don't have to render 4x as many pixels. And you don't force folks to go out and buy brand new televisions to fully experience your console.
I think on top of this Nintendo knows how to design for 480p. They know their medium. They know how to make 480i/p look good. If you play WindWaker or Metroid Prime or Mario Sunshine those games look good. Are any of those games photo-realistic? No. But they look good. And I play them in 480i. And they still look good. OTher companies don't know how to make good looking 480i/p games. They cram too much detail into the games and it looks like a muddy mess. Sometimes less is more. Certainly less is more fps.
I think 480i/p will shine with thru with flying colors. 480p will still look pretty good on hdtvs. If you're sitting back far and have a smaller than ideal TV then you'll be hard pressed to notice the difference.
Post by: pudu on February 12, 2006, 06:57:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: trip1eX
Sometimes less is more. Certainly less is more fps.
I agree with what you've said trip1eX...and I especially like what you said here, well put.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2006, 10:59:05 AM
HD wasn't meant to be viewed from that short of range.
Post by: Artimus on February 12, 2006, 12:31:15 PM
Post by: pudu on February 12, 2006, 12:49:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
Pudu (Bantha pudu?) is correct, that blueprint is a mapping of the MKDS victory sequence. It's a shot by shot match.
Nah it's just pudu. Thanks for the conformation on that MK: DS slide, I was about to check myself.
Post by: nemo_83 on February 12, 2006, 01:37:39 PM
Post by: pudu on February 12, 2006, 01:45:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
Reading what seems like dozens of quotes from Nintendo's people over the past few months on Revolution I have come to the conclusion that that last secret is the reason they havn't shown the graphics. Take from that what you will. I don't believe that means a secret graphical technique; I think it has to do with how games are displayed.
Actually you have a pretty good point here. Back in 2001 the only graphics they showed were some demonstations at the Space World that came before it. This time around they have basically showed nothing... Either they are trying to prove their point about how tech specs aren't there primary concern (while also possibly surprising us in the end with the graphical capabilities of the Rev) or they are hiding something about, like Nemo said, how the games are displayed. Or...they are just being Nintendo and preparing us for the best E3 ever and that's as far as we should look into it.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 12, 2006, 02:03:03 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2006, 02:59:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I've been saying this since the Revmote was revealed, but okay...
THAT'S where I heard it...
I think I agree (and I definitely hope you're right). Nintendo could use any and every edge that their new tech will provide them in the upcoming console war. Since people are nature graphic-whores, something new and ambitious with the graphics could make a great deal of difference when it comes to the Rev's broad appeal.
Post by: antman100 on February 12, 2006, 03:29:36 PM
If Nintendo is never going to utilize HiDef in the future, then they are probably better off simply not including it. And no, I'm not bitter about the fact that there are a couple plastic covers on the bottom of my GC that have never come off.
Post by: Kairon on February 12, 2006, 04:19:33 PM
~Carmine M. Red
Just playin'!
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2006, 04:38:38 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 12, 2006, 05:59:41 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on February 12, 2006, 07:31:37 PM
How many people would have guessed the first handheld after GBA would feature two screens.
Post by: trip1eX on February 12, 2006, 07:56:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
Reading what seems like dozens of quotes from Nintendo's people over the past few months on Revolution I have come to the conclusion that that last secret is the reason they havn't shown the graphics. Take from that what you will. I don't believe that means a secret graphical technique; I think it has to do with how games are displayed.
Yeah it's a reasonable assumption. I just was clarifying that they actually haven't said anything officially.
Personally I don't think it's about the way the games look. I just don't think there is any alien technology out there that could suddenly make games look better on regular TVs.
I don't think 3d is possible without a special monitor or glasses. And I don't think glasses are the answer for the mass market.
They could track the motion of the controller and let you aim off screen using sound cues or something. But that's pretty lame too.
I don't think the Revolution will beam images on your walls either. Too much setup involved their for the average consumer. Not too mention the REv is just too small.
I don't think the secret is a microphone in the controller. Certainly that would be possible, but I don't know why they would save that for last. Voice control has been done in a few games on the xbox and ps2.
My feeling now is it has something to do with alternative content and user-made content and the sharing of such content. But that's pretty vague ain't it? What if you could create your own character to use in any game you wanted to across the board? Maybe you can go in and change the monsters around etc. Ok i'm just brainstorming here.
Maybe it will have wireless video streaming to the TV. And the ability to stream to more than one TV at a time. Of course I can't believe the mass market is ready for this and I'm not sure games could be streamed fast enough to the television yet.
Maybe they'll be able to mix in a camera for backgrounds in games. Maybe they'll have some technique to mix in video quality footage. HOnestly tho I think the REv will just display games at 480p close to what the others can do at 480p.
I think the small and quiet part tho is because it will be less powerful and because it will help it remain portable and easy to transport and small for Japanese homes. And quieter will be a nice contrast to the loud ps3 and 360.
Post by: trip1eX on February 12, 2006, 08:02:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The 360 HD screens that the kiosks are set up with make the graphics look awful, at least for some games.
HD wasn't meant to be viewed from that short of range.
Well there's some truth there. Obviously hdtv like regular tv has its limits for close up viewing. However a hdtv would need to be viewed at a closer range than a same-sized regular Tv.
And look at pc monitors. I run my monitor at 1024x768. It's 19" and I sit a foot away from it. The picture is purdy.
Those kiosk monitors are Samsung lcds. LCDs still can't display true color. They still tend to not do that great on distinguishing shades of black. And the viewing angle on them is generally poor which means you need to be perfectly centered in front of them. NOt to mention the background lighting etc at those kiosks probably doesn't help.
Still most of them looked decent. Altho I had to doublecheck during xmas that a particular game was indeed an xbox game. It was on a similar lcd and from a distance it looked fairly sharp.
Post by: nemo_83 on February 12, 2006, 10:10:49 PM
Well, if they aimed Revolution at a $100-150 price I would have to say a 3D display perpheral would be more likely as they could sell the system with the device possibly for less than the PS3 (which doesn't come with an HD screen).
Otherwise they would be aiming the Revolution to be a system owned multiple times by the same customers (equals lower attach rate for software) with one in the bedroom and one in the living room as the system will be pushed like a portable with the wifi connecting consoles and TVs in seperate rooms for multiplayer. One system can only support so many remotes, but if Nintendo makes the system cheap enough they figure people could buy multiple consoles.
Post by: odilon on February 13, 2006, 03:31:18 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 13, 2006, 03:47:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
But those were used...poorly...(Haha, Sega CD... =\)
The side port was, but not every port. I assume this guy means the ports on the cube which weren't used. I have one unused port, but a broadband adapter and the GB player filled the other two ports.
Sorry, I wasn't clear on what I meant.
Post by: thejeek on February 13, 2006, 05:18:08 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 13, 2006, 05:23:37 AM
There were a few games I loved on the Sega CD (Sonic CD is still the best Sonic game ever created and I'll argue that notion to the death) but the idea was basically a flop.
Post by: thejeek on February 13, 2006, 05:30:11 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on February 13, 2006, 05:41:41 AM
I don't know what the new secret is, but I doubt it's an add-on like the Gameboy Player. Probably wireless DS connectivity is in there, but hopefully there's something more exciting than that to announce.
Post by: thejeek on February 13, 2006, 05:45:02 AM
It's really starting to eat me this secret business - I'd love it to be great but I don't have good feeling about it...
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 13, 2006, 06:50:48 AM
"The Nintendo Revolution will eject its disc at 200MPH into the forehead of anyone who says the words "Xbox" or "Playstation", and that means voice-recognition!"
Post by: thejeek on February 13, 2006, 07:58:21 AM
Post by: JonLeung on February 13, 2006, 08:19:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: thejeek
I'm looking forward to Revolution/DS connectivity. I think the better interface on the DS will make it much better than the GBA connectivity where you sacrificed at lot of buttons + analog control.
As am I.
I recall Nintendo making a big deal about connectivity, even before the GameCube came out. I remember an article where they asked these kids what they thought of the three current consoles when they were new. One kid thought he was smart for mentioning the GBA-GCN connectivity, but what he actually said was "you can use the GBA as a GameCube controller, but it has less buttons so you don't get full functionality." The article didn't even correct him. Talk about stupid. I hope the misinformation wasn't widespread...it probably wouldn't have affected much, and anyone who was truly interested in GBA-GCN connectivity would know what games it does work on, which is only a few, but I think unnecessary negative misinformation is something that Nintendo doesn't need, especially now and lately.
That said, the wirelessness of the DS, and, as you said, a couple more buttons, will probably make DS-Revolution connectivity better if Nintendo wants to keep with that route. Maybe a future Option Pak for the DS will include a motion sensor like the "Revmote"?
Post by: thejeek on February 13, 2006, 08:53:52 AM
Quote
Maybe a future Option Pak for the DS will include a motion sensor like the "Revmote"?
I'm picturing myself frantically waving my DS about, whilst scribbling wildly with the stylus and trying to watch *3* screens at once - I think that could cause sensory overload!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 13, 2006, 09:34:14 AM
Issues come up however in games where you need to use the stylus and the individual buttons on the DS. In some situations you might need to use two controllers with a shell acting as the buttons and the other remote acting as the stylus. Or you have move the whole shell with the remote inside it.
Or they could just make it so that using the Rev you can output the video of your DS to the TV. In some games you have to be able to look at the touchscreen anyway but for something like Mario Kart it would work fine.
But then there's the microphone. Eh, this is getting more complicated then I thought.
Post by: thejeek on February 13, 2006, 09:41:35 AM
Quote
Or they could just make it so that using the Rev you can output the video of your DS to the TV. In some games you have to be able to look at the touchscreen anyway but for something like Mario Kart it would work fine.
That would be very cool but I wonder - does the DS wireless connection have enough bandwidth to do this? Even with the relatively small screen sizes of the DS, 60 frames a second uncompressed would be megabytes a second.
Post by: vudu on February 13, 2006, 10:02:25 AM
QuoteHaha. Classic. I kind of miss Zoidberg.
Originally posted by: DrZoidberg
Didn't I ban you, I thought I banned you. Do you ever make sense.
QuoteThe Revolution will use vector graphics. Here's the first ever released screenshot.
Nintendo refuses to show pics or vids of graphics of Revolution games because, they claim, the last secret will affect how the importance of the graphics is judged by the industry.
Now quit talking about it until more information is revealed.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 13, 2006, 12:41:31 PM
