Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on February 08, 2006, 02:22:09 PM
Not much revealed really, I just thought it was kind of interesting. The first anser kind of puzzled me...does Nintendo really plan on revealing new things all the way up till launch? I'm not sure how I feel about that. Oh, and for those of you (myself included) who were looking for Rev online to be more like Xbox Live or something of the sort, you're going to be disappointed...Reggie states that Nintendo's plan is to make online friend-based and peer-to-peer.
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 08, 2006, 02:41:55 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 08, 2006, 02:42:09 PM
Post by: mantidor on February 08, 2006, 02:53:27 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on February 08, 2006, 03:57:45 PM
YES! This is awesome! I hate it when they tinker for no reason. If you're interested in the retro download service odds are you want to original versions so it makes sense.
I'm not too keen on the "friends only" design of the online service. It is possible to CHOOSE to only play with friends with more open systems like Xbox Live. No one forces anyone to play with strangers, you just CAN if you want to. If there's a cost reason to go with the friend system, as in that's the very reason why Nintendo can afford to offer online for free, then I support it. But it's kinda lame to intentionally offer such a restriction. I'm getting a little tired of Nintendo deciding what's best for me and denying me options.
I think it's just plain dumb to continue to hide stuff after E3. There's no point for all this secrecy. Sony and MS aren't going to copy the Rev because they think it's lame and don't consider old fuddy-duddy Nintendo to be a threat. And it's hard to take Nintendo seriously when they're talking about all this innovation and they've shown no proof. They made a big deal about connectivity too and it SUCKED. Nintendo doesn't have the credibility to be overly secretive. If the Rev is so great PROVE IT. No one wants just a bunch of talk from a company that's been underdelivering for nearly ten years now.
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on February 08, 2006, 04:19:22 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 08, 2006, 04:23:31 PM
Come on, the controller wasn't innovative enough?
Isn't Reggie's speech tomorrow? Where's the hype?
Post by: KnowsNothing on February 08, 2006, 04:30:59 PM
NWC is just fine, most of the changes we want would happen on a software level. Mario Kart wasn't so hawt because you couldn't directly choose which person to play agianst. This has to be a software issue, because you could choose in Animal Crossing. Although I'm not sure about the speed of connecting to peers, I fear that that may not improve too much. Still, it's FREE, and that's the most important part.
While Nintendo is being secretive, I'm positive they're going to reveal most important stuff at E3, and only minor things after. They're probably envisioning tweaks and changes they may make, and I think they'll wait to reveal the definite pricing till after E3. We'll get enough new info at E3 to get the hype train started, and nothing ground-breaking will be revealed after. It seems natural to get the big thing out at E3, and then slowly get more specific with the details up until launch. Plus, don't forget games, details about all the games needs to be revealed, and there just isn't going to be enough time at E3 to do all that. They can afford to be plenty secretive, but they have to choose just what to be secretive about
Post by: odifiend on February 08, 2006, 04:37:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I'm not too keen on the "friends only" design of the online service. It is possible to CHOOSE to only play with friends with more open systems like Xbox Live. No one forces anyone to play with strangers, you just CAN if you want to. If there's a cost reason to go with the friend system, as in that's the very reason why Nintendo can afford to offer online for free, then I support it. But it's kinda lame to intentionally offer such a restriction. I'm getting a little tired of Nintendo deciding what's best for me and denying me options.
I think it's just plain dumb to continue to hide stuff after E3. There's no point for all this secrecy. Sony and MS aren't going to copy the Rev because they think it's lame and don't consider old fuddy-duddy Nintendo to be a threat. And it's hard to take Nintendo seriously when they're talking about all this innovation and they've shown no proof. They made a big deal about connectivity too and it SUCKED. Nintendo doesn't have the credibility to be overly secretive. If the Rev is so great PROVE IT. No one wants just a bunch of talk from a company that's been underdelivering for nearly ten years now.
Well I'd assume you could still play strangers a kin to Mario Kart DS and Animal Crossing. I think it kind of sucks that you can't get to know some cool people online but there are probably more uncool gamers out there - so lesser of two evils, both socially and expense-wise. Ian, Nintendo's goal is not to make you miserable. If there is a 'restriction' in place online, it is probably cost (to both them and the consumer [cost = restriction]) since they've been talking about profit for years.
Ian, you really can't say that Sony and MS won't copy Revolution. Nintendo has practically made the home console industry and largely the competitors have simply improved or marketed their ideas better or in the case of Crash Bandicoot went to market first. As for connectivity it wasn't that it wasn't a good idea - it was poorly implemented and not as good as even past 'connectivity' attempts like Pokemon/Transfer Pak. In any case, 4 years of lack of innovative hardware can not speak for 20 years of pioneering on both the hardware and software front.
In the case of the Revolution, Nintendo is actually seeking patents and the like. And the Revolution could be a revolution, if Nintendo wants everything set just right, I'd rather they unveil it near perfect later than hear you bitch about how the Revolution was rushed.
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on February 08, 2006, 05:07:15 PM
Here's hoping for SOMETHING to be shown tomorrow...
Post by: Chris1 on February 08, 2006, 05:24:00 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 08, 2006, 05:38:07 PM
Post by: willie1234 on February 08, 2006, 06:34:52 PM
on the other hand - sony still hasn't revealed their controller yet, so it's not entirely irrational for nintendo to keep their cards close to the chest.
Post by: Talon on February 08, 2006, 06:42:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: willie1234
There's no point for all this secrecy. Sony and MS aren't going to copy the Rev because they think it's lame and don't consider old fuddy-duddy Nintendo to be a threat.
on the other hand - sony still hasn't revealed their controller yet, so it's not entirely irrational for nintendo to keep their cards close to the chest.
Actually SONY did reveal their controller, everybody laughed at them and they got the batman fanboys all excited. So then they said it was only a prototype or a mockup of what it actually could look like. It still wouldnt suprise me when SONY does release the final design of their controller it has some sort of gyroscopic sensor in it or perhaps a magnet so you can stick it to your belt.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 08, 2006, 08:18:51 PM
Without a decent demonstration it's all theoretical. When Nintendo revealed connectivity I thought it was a really cool idea. But then they didn't actually show anything for it and when they finally did it was pretty weak stuff for the most part. The idea isn't good enough. It's all about the implementation of the idea.
"In any case, 4 years of lack of innovative hardware can not speak for 20 years of pioneering on both the hardware and software front."
With gaming it's "what you have done for me lately?" Atari used to be THE gaming company but how awesome they were in 70s had no bearing on the crash they would cause in the 80s. Sega used to have a fantastic reputation and now it's generally assumed that everything they announce will suck. What about Rare? Five years ago they were considered one of the greatest developers around. Now they're really not that big of a deal. With developers you can't take the past into account when discussing the present and future.
Post by: Kairon on February 08, 2006, 08:35:56 PM
~Carmine Red
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 08, 2006, 08:38:06 PM
2) Atari and Sega slowly began to degrade...It wasn't a "Oh look, an awesome game, and then they started making crappy games the next day"...The last awesome Nintendo game I bought was Animal Crossing a couple months ago, and I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt they will be degrading that quickly...
Post by: King of Twitch on February 08, 2006, 08:41:18 PM
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on February 09, 2006, 02:10:49 AM
Post by: Terranigma Freak on February 09, 2006, 04:09:14 AM
Post by: Pale on February 09, 2006, 04:25:38 AM
And no, I haven't been staff long enough to have any inside info or anything.. it's just a complete guess.. =P
Post by: couchmonkey on February 09, 2006, 05:33:56 AM
I do agree that Nintendo needs to show the goods at E3, though. If the company wants to keep some little secrets between then and launch, okay, but we need to see the controller in action on real games. We must.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 09, 2006, 06:23:42 AM
Quote
No one wants just a bunch of talk from a company that's been underdelivering for nearly ten years now.
So the DS is just chopped liver, then?
I agree that it's all BS until we see some proof, but the DS was the same way and look how well THAT turned out.
If they don't screw it up, Nintendo could do some great things with this new concept.
–SB
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 09, 2006, 06:39:47 AM
QuoteReggie: "We'll be showing a lot of titles at this year's E3, and we think that's where consumers will get a flavor for the full range of titles and the full range of activity that we will have for our launch window."
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
I do agree that Nintendo needs to show the goods at E3, though. If the company wants to keep some little secrets between then and launch, okay, but we need to see the controller in action on real games. We must.
Post by: Chris1 on February 09, 2006, 07:28:37 AM
Post by: BigJim on February 09, 2006, 07:35:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Chris1
Does anyone else know what Reggie said at the D.I.C.E. Summit? Did Zelda or the DSL get a release date?
Reggie announced a demo download service for DS... There's a thread in the DS forum.
Post by: Pale on February 09, 2006, 07:35:38 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 09, 2006, 07:35:42 AM
Except connectivity was very well implemented. It was just too great an expense to play, and an impractical focus for some of their stuff.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 09, 2006, 07:43:43 AM
Both are innovative ideas for a Nintendo console that Nintendo made a huge deal about. One of them didn't turn out that well thus there's concern.
"I agree that it's all BS until we see some proof, but the DS was the same way and look how well THAT turned out."
I still have yet to see a game that really demonstrates the touchscreen as essential. Most of the best DS games are like souped up GBA titles. They're great games but they could have been done without the touchscreen. It's certainly nothing like the N64 analog stick where practically every game used it in such a way that the very idea of playing those games without it seemed impossible. That's what Nintendo needs for the Rev. That's a rare accomplishment so there needs to be some proof to show that the remote is at that level. The remote should be the future of gaming. You can't take something as having that kind of significance at face value.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 09, 2006, 07:49:22 AM
DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR DUR
Kirby Canvas Curse
Yoshi Touch & Go
Nintendogs
Brain Training
Metroid Prime Hunters
Trace Memory
Ouendan
and more I can't think of at the moment...
And don't pull any of that "could be done without the touchscreen" bullcrap, because none of these games would be nearly as fun or intuitive (or would outright not even work) if you had to use the D-pad for control...
Post by: ShyGuy on February 09, 2006, 07:50:59 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 09, 2006, 07:54:40 AM
Post by: darknight06 on February 09, 2006, 07:58:48 AM
Meteos isn't a souped up GBA game with no need of touchscreen either. Nor is Trauma Center, Metroid Prime Hunters (no dual analog IS NOT a substitute for absolute control), or Kirby's Canvas Curse. I know there's more but I can't think of them off the top of my head.
Post by: Chris1 on February 09, 2006, 08:09:59 AM
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 09, 2006, 08:23:22 AM
And then he'd ditch the Revolution and drive Nintendo bankrupt researching a system better and more expensive than the other two consoles, as well as paying for the cost of games from every major third party.
This system would never be released because he would first have to make sure all of Nintendo's franchises had a sequel for launch.
Then he would resign, citing concerns about old fuddy duddy Nintendo not being able to do anything right.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 09, 2006, 08:25:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I still have yet to see a game that really demonstrates the touchscreen as essential. Most of the best DS games are like souped up GBA titles. They're great games but they could have been done without the touchscreen. It's certainly nothing like the N64 analog stick where practically every game used it in such a way that the very idea of playing those games without it seemed impossible. That's what Nintendo needs for the Rev. That's a rare accomplishment so there needs to be some proof to show that the remote is at that level. The remote should be the future of gaming. You can't take something as having that kind of significance at face value.
Nintendogs is an excellent example, but MP:Hunters is far better. The precision in aiming which will be found through the touchscreen will resemble a mouse, making a console FPS tolerable for just about the first time ever. Aiming to shoot your opponent will actually be plausible, rather than favoring explosive weapons with splash damage for easier kills.
–SB
Post by: Ian Sane on February 09, 2006, 08:38:04 AM
Right now I look at the touchscreen like a lightgun. Yeah they couldn't have made Duck Hunt without it, along with a lot of cool games, but it's not an essential feature. It wasn't that big of a deal that the N64 didn't have it. I just don't think it's significant enough. Most touchscreen games are glorified mini-games and most of the big titles don't use the feature. ALL of the big first party titles should be making great use of it. That's what it was like for the analog stick and that's why that was an essential feature and the touchscreen isn't.
"Except connectivity was very well implemented. It was just too great an expense to play, and an impractical focus for some of their stuff."
That's arguable. Four Swords Adventures was awesome but Crystal Chronicles was crap and actually probably would have been a better game without the forced inclusion of connectivity. Pac-Man Vs. is a cool idea but is so minor that Nintendo didn't even sell it as a seperate product. Connectivity definately didn't reach the potential that we all thought it would. There were some cool ideas brought up when the idea was announced and nothing that actually was released was as good. At best it was a more expensive alternative for online play as the games would work quite well with online play and headsets for voice communication.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 09, 2006, 08:52:43 AM
If that was the case, you'd claim Mario Kart would be broken since it would abandon the tried-n-true functionality of the series' classic mechanics.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 09, 2006, 09:18:35 AM
The question is "Is it more FUN because of the touchscreen?" The Rev doesn't have to justify the controller as being the only way to play a specific game, just give the player a more enjoyable experience than they would have had using a regular analogue stick.
–SB
Post by: Ian Sane on February 09, 2006, 09:20:50 AM
If it was such an essential feature it wouldn't break the classic mechanics. Super Mario Kart used the d-pad but Mario Kart 64 used the analog stick. This didn't break the game. I WOULD be annoyed if Mario Kart DS used to the touchscreen because I don't consider it an essential feature. But that's the point. It's good that Nintendo didn't force the touchscreen into Mario Kart DS because they recognized it wouldn't work as well. But a major feature like that should work as well if it's a really amazing idea.
The remote has to be that good. It has to be good enough that Nintendo will make Mario Kart use it and it won't break the game, feel forced, or make you wish you could play it the old way. The DS touchscreen isn't at that level. But it never really had to be because all the elements of the GBA were still there. Early on Nintendo tried to use it for every game and it didn't work out well. But lately they've used it more like an extra feature to be used when appropriate and the DS lineup has approved significantly as a result.
The Rev isn't in the same boat. Nintendo has stripped off major functionality. They might include the shell but they're still promoting the remote as being the future in controller design. On the Rev the new features are everything. They have to succeed or the console is screwed. If the touchscreen bombed the DS probably could have got by as a souped up GBA and Nintendo always had that big safety net of being the portable market leader to make up for any temporary stumbles. People would give them a chance because they made the Gameboy. The Rev doesn't have that sort of safety net. It doesn't have the marketshare and as a "normal" console compared to the competition it likely doesn't really match up hardware wise. If the remote concept doesn't really take off I don't think the Rev would be able to morph into a "normal" console and compete with the PS3 and X360.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 09, 2006, 10:18:07 AM
If each controller comes with a cradle, then they haven't stripped off any functionality because the Rev can still behave exactly like its competitors. If the cradle is sold separately, then I agree because Nintendo is basically forcing the notion of the remote on everyone without providing a secondary option without purchasing extra hardware.
In that vein, I think each controller NEEDS to ship with a GC controller cradle. Companies have enough resolve to try new things with the Rev's controller, and I believe (hope, anyway) that Nintendo won't be foolish enough to not give 3rd parties the option.
The "My way or the highway" attitude won't win them any friends here and I think they know that.
–SB
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 09, 2006, 10:24:24 AM
Good job, Ian...You have completely thrown out your argument...Your argument was that NO DS GAMES EXIST THAT NEED THE TOUCHSCREEN, not WHAT GAMES DOES IAN LIKE...Biased? I think so...
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 09, 2006, 10:27:50 AM
The ability to play console FPSs with the same degree of accuracy as a mouse is something which has never before been done and yet we have it now with a handheld console.
–SB
Post by: The Omen on February 09, 2006, 10:51:50 AM
Quote
2) Atari and Sega slowly began to degrade...It wasn't a "Oh look, an awesome game, and then they started making crappy games the next day"...The last awesome Nintendo game I bought was Animal Crossing a couple months ago, and I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt they will be degrading that quickly...
In Atari's case, I hardly call going from an incredible money maker in 1980 to a complete financial disaster less than three years later a gradual decline. They fell off a cliff. Sega, in fact, is exactly the same, however the market was strong enough to support multiple catastrophic decisions. The truth is, Sega fell from grace financially in 1995, and never recovered. So yes, Sega foregoing consoles was a gradual slope in the market for them, however financially, they were running on fumes for 6 years prior.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 09, 2006, 10:58:56 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on February 09, 2006, 11:18:33 AM
BTW, Yoshi TouchN'Go IS essential. I'm playing it right now.
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2006, 11:28:37 AM
Edit: BTW Ian, Trauma Center needs to use the touch screen. It would not work without it. I heard it is rated pretty highly. Regardless, it is one of my favorite games of all time. So I have the conceptual, critical, and personal levels of this game's use of the touchscreen covered, so therefore it needs it. If you don't like it, it is immaterial to its requirement of a touchscreen to even exist.
The only one beating this dead horse is you.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 09, 2006, 11:32:27 AM
That was never my arguement. I was saying that most of the top titles on the system don't need it. Tons of DS games need it. It's just that most of the ones that need it aren't very good.
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2006, 11:34:56 AM
"I still have yet to see a game that really demonstrates the touchscreen as essential."
Short Memory Ian?
Post by: ShyGuy on February 09, 2006, 11:44:03 AM
Post by: IceCold on February 09, 2006, 12:18:13 PM
1) Have you played Touch 'n Go? It's absolutely brilliant.. it was just a bit short since it was rushed, but if they had more time to add more to it, the reviews would have been much higher. The gameplay itself is just great..
2) ShyGuy and Bill are right; sure you wouldn't miss it if it never existed. Tell that to the people who have Kirby as their favourite game.. or Nintendogs, for that matter. Sure, you may not like them, but to state that they're unconvincing examples of how the touchscreen improves games is just wrong.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 09, 2006, 01:52:22 PM
I think it makes sense. I don't think the touchscreen is essential. For me personally there's not a game that you can point to that makes me think it's a big deal.
My opinion relates to my faith in Nintendo to deliver with the Rev. I need to see something because connectivity was lame and I don't think the touchscreen is all that hot. And I'm not the only person who thinks this way. And I don't think anything to do with the DS applies to the Rev. The DS is a the followup to one of the most successful videogame systems ever. The Rev is the follow up to the least popular Nintendo system of all time except for the Virtual Boy. The DS could coast over a crummy first six months and a hardware innovation that isn't as big of a deal as Nintendo thinks it is. The Rev can't. So don't say "well the DS strategy worked so it will work for the Rev" because it's a night and day difference. Do you honestly think the DS would have survived the dismal launch period if the PSP was the one following up the GBA?
Post by: Requiem on February 09, 2006, 03:02:53 PM
Post by: Mario on February 09, 2006, 04:30:26 PM
Quote
I'd say the best titles on the DS are games like Mario Kart, Castlevania, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing and they don't really need the stylus largely because they existed before without one.
That's just a matter of opinion. Since that can't be settled, let's look at the best selling DS titles. Nintendogs and Brain Training, neither could exist without the DS features. Also you have bad taste in games because Yoshi Touch N Go is awesome.
Post by: Deguello on February 09, 2006, 05:54:42 PM
You can try to spin and damage control your way out of this, Ian. You lose. Your argument was flawed from the beginning and become even more flawed under every revision. It seems the person who wants a company like Nintendo to accept some "hard facts" has a little trouble with it himself.
Post by: King of Twitch on February 09, 2006, 06:11:39 PM
--
B-b-b-b-b-but what about PSPdogs?
Post by: trip1eX on February 09, 2006, 06:31:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
Also, Games like Nintendogs and Trauma Center and Pac Pix require the very existance of the touchscreen. Without them, they do not exist. Essentianl to their very existance,
You can try to spin and damage control your way out of this, Ian. You lose. Your argument was flawed from the beginning and become even more flawed under every revision. It seems the person who wants a company like Nintendo to accept some "hard facts" has a little trouble with it himself.
Come on. That guy's arguments flawed? That's like saying the Pope is CAtholic. Anyway the guy is an anti-Nintendo broken record. Whenever a press release, product, game or service comes out he asks himself, 'How is this bad for Nintendo?' and that's his stance. YOu don't need to read his posts. YOu can write his posts for him yourself as you already know what he's going to say. IF Nintendo did it then it's wrong.
I think it stems back from his childhood when the NES fell on his head when he was crawling around.
Post by: zakkiel on February 09, 2006, 06:46:16 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 09, 2006, 09:37:32 PM
Though sometimes I wonder if he doesn't just ignore my posts
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 09, 2006, 09:44:49 PM
Back on topic... I was hoping Reggie would give us more to discuss. I can't help thinking that enabling voice chat for metroid would be a disaster unless you could choose exactly who you wanted to play with...
Post by: nemo_83 on February 09, 2006, 10:23:05 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2006, 04:04:55 AM
His posts take the critical aspects of every announcement, yes, but he usually always expresses what changes he'd like to see to make it better.
Of course, that's only as long as I've been here. He might have been worse before and I wouldn't know.
Post by: Pale on February 10, 2006, 05:05:22 AM
Well maybe he's happy sometimes, but he never expresses it on the forums.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2006, 07:03:01 AM
I've found it hard to be optimistic because I was optimistic about the Cube and then watched Nintendo flub routine stuff and sink themselves even deeper into the pit they were in with the N64. That's very frustrating and demoralizing. And in the last year it was hard to be positive because, well, I wasn't playing games. I wasn't impressed with the DS at first (they only first party launch game is a port; what an insult) so I didn't buy one until December and the 2005 Cube release schedule was pretty bare. It's easier to be positive when you're having a blast playing great games. When virtually nothing that interests you comes out for almost a year then you get pretty annoyed.
Plus I've noticed a big change in Nintendo lately that I'm not really cool with. I don't like the non-gamer strategy and not just because I don't think it will work. I also fear Nintendo is abandoning me for non-gamers. I'm afraid they're just not going to make games that interest me anymore (or not as frequently as I like) which is going to make me a little bitter because I've supported them and have been loyal for a long time and thus don't really deserve to be cast aside. Sony and MS don't offer me what I like so if Nintendo stops doing it too then I'm screwed. I've got a feeling in the back of my head that gaming as I like it is almost dead and that, well, sucks. If the Rev fails Nintendo's dead. If the Rev succeeds then Nintendo might not be Nintendo anymore. What do you root for?
I think the forum used to be more balanced in terms of praise vs criticism but I've noticed a lot of the regulars that were here when the Cube launched aren't here now. I'm wondering if those that were critical don't have the patience I do and have just given up on Nintendo. It kind of makes sense that during a very low point in a Nintendo's history that most of the fans are going to be the optimistic type.
Plus I find there's not much point in sharing an opinion if 50 other people have already said the same thing. So if something really impresses me and everyone has already made the point I have then I'm less likely to respond. Who needs another "wow this is great" post? However if my reason on why it's great hasn't been covered I'll respond. At the same time if a critical opinion I have hasn't been addressed I'm going to bring it up. Lately this board hasn't been too critical so I've had more reason to post those kinds of opinions.
I'm here because I like Nintendo. If I didn't why would I care what they did?
Post by: Kairon on February 10, 2006, 08:09:55 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: trip1eX on February 10, 2006, 08:37:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
Ian's only problem is that he is never happy with anything. That makes it hard to take any of his opinions seriously.
Exactly.
HIs views have nothing to do with Nintendo because no matter what Nintendo does he will complain.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2006, 09:08:31 AM
If anyone bothered to read his last post, he explained rather clearly why he feels the way he feels.
I don't think his feelings are unwarranted: based on Nintendo's last two home consoles, they've been declining, losing market share regularly.
Frankly, if they hadn't released the DS, I'd be pretty goddamn pessimistic myself. I think the Rev has hope because Nintendo's angle with the DS worked well on acquiring 3rd party developers which would have otherwise probably not cared.
With the Rev being something new and different, 3rd parties are pressured into supporting it from fear. No one wants to be left out in the cold when it comes to developing for a console and accidentally develop for the "loser" console (like the GC was last gen). Because it's so different, no one can say whether or not it will fail or possibly succeed in such a big way that it captures the market this gen.
Will it likely capture the market? No, but you don't know what could happen because this is a different concept. It might make other means of gaming look stale and outdated by comparison, making players around the world yawn at the notion of using an ordinary controller. Or it could bomb completely.
All I know for certain is that I'm not ruling Nintendo out this gen, but there's plenty of reason to be skeptical based on their past performance alone and Ian has the right to point that out without being bitched at.
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 10, 2006, 09:25:29 AM
Also, if you haven't noticed, Nintendo is improving. Gamecube hasn't done as well as the N64, but it's improved most things that went wrong. N64 only did well because it rode on the coattails of the SNES. I strongly believe Nintendo was much stronger this generation than last, both in terms of the games they made and the decisions they made.
Ian fails to recognize any improvement, and continually complains about the DS, despite its apparent success (which only looks to improve).
So I understand, and I don't hate Ian. I think he's virtually essential to the board. But he could be a little less doomy gloomy.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2006, 09:40:17 AM
Expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed. Ian's just been disappointed one too many times to expect anything but.
That might change this gen, but again, expect the worst.
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 10, 2006, 09:52:48 AM
I take issue with that philosophy. If all you do is expect the worst, you've got nothing to dream about anymore.
So, are we going to be talking about this Reggie thing anytime soon?
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 10, 2006, 10:24:46 AM
As for the article, this intrigues me the most...
Quote
Fils-Aime: As much as I think [Nintendo President Mr. Satoru] Iwata likes me, if I shared that with you I probably wouldn't be here. [Laughs] You know, here are the facts: Come [this May], we'll disclose a lot more. After [that], we'll disclose even more, and right about the time of the launch, we'll disclose even more. There are certainly elements to everything we're doing about Revolution I'm talking beyond the controller, the virtual console, all the different element we'll be sharing all the way up to launch. And I believe as consumers understand the full range of benefits and the full functionality, the more and more they're going to get excited. I really do.
There are still elements to the Rev beyond the controller which Nintendo hasn't even discussed. I admit, I find it enticing, but my policy stands.
Right now, I'm morbidly curious about the whole thing more than anything...
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2006, 10:28:39 AM
Ian fails to recognize any improvement"
It's not that I fail to recognize any improvement it's that I have a different opinion. I thought the N64 was a better system. I think it benefited from having some of the best games of all time on it. The N64 was largely limited by one really dumb decision by Nintendo. That was unfortunate and frustrating but everyone makes mistakes and Nintendo unfortunately just made one that affected everything. It seemed to me at the time that Nintendo was for the most part on the ball except for one thing. The Cube didn't have that big reason for it's underperformance. It had no excuse. Nintendo just kept messing up routine stuff. There is no excuse why the Xbox beat the Cube in North America. The same hardware and even a lot of the same games could have beat the Xbox if Nintendo was more on the ball in regards to marketing and the timing of game releases (ie: release cool Zelda first and cartoon Zelda second) and a better handling of routine stuff.
That to me changed everything. Now I question the company as a whole. Did the N64 really flop because of the cartridges or did Nintendo just not know what they were doing and it would have flopped even if they used CDs? Did they really know what they were doing with the NES or did they just luck out because there was no one else? Seeing a company trip over their own shoelaces like that really hurts their credibility in your mind.
When the Cube was annouced I was incredibly optimistic about it. I'm not with the Rev. I don't have that confidence. So that to me suggest things didn't improve. That's everything. Nintendo has improved a few things but those a minor compared to that. If I'm more concerned over Nintendo's future now then I was then then I can't say things are better now.
I love how Nintendo is finally going online and what the Rev case looks like and how they're including an optional DVD player for it and the whole download system. Those are things I see that are major improvements. But Nintendo can't seem to take any steps forward without taking steps back. They're not supporting HD and they've got this weird controller that they claim has a shell for traditional games but they won't go into details about it or show the shell or clarify if it comes with every controller. They're being all secretive and not showing any screenshots or games or trailers or announcing third party support. There are rumours about the Rev being underpowered and Nintendo has not denied this and has made all sorts of dodge comments downplaying hardware. Any Nintendo fan knows that when Nintendo does that sort of things it's secret code for "yes that negative rumour is true".
So they're fixing some things but doing other questionable things. Is that improvement? If you break your leg to put your arm in a sling are you better off? I would consider improvement to mean they're doing less questionable things and that there's a real change in attitude regarding negative traits. They're still being secretive and saying weird stuff and downplaying things that most people consider positive features and making questionable decisions and acting like they're not competing. Well that's pretty much the same old Nintendo.
I'm happy they've made some improvements. That's better than nothing. But they can't just fix one group of problems and then create a whole bunch of new ones.
Post by: animecyberrat on February 10, 2006, 11:39:09 AM
I ended up getting both of the otehr 2 and I was still disapointed with PS2 so eventualy got rid of it, as for Xbox well It hasnt goten as much play as I thought it would but it still is nice to nolonger have to sit back and get pissed I wont be abel to play a game I have been anticapating, now I am not restricted. In the SNES days itw as different, even if you were a Nintendo only fan or Sega only fan it didnt matter, the 3rd party supports was basicaly equal and the 1st party stuff on either system was more than satisfying.
Also yo haev to factor in, dont take this the wrong way either, the fact that nobody is goign to be very excited abotu rooting for the loosing team and GC was undenyably the losing team.
I have doubts as well about Nintendos stratgey in regards to the rev but where Ian sees doom I actualy see some major improvemnts that gets largely over looked. Mostly what I see is Nintendo is TAKING AWAY everything that makes Xbox great, and thats whats going to win them in the end, tehres no argument this next time. Xbox inticed a lot of 1st person shooters fans by having the best lineol up and the best control for the genre, GC was pretty good also but its missing buttons did make a difference.
GC didnt have any good 1st person shooters and rigth now Nintendo is doing evrythign they can to show that as far as 1st perosn shooters are concerned teh rev is THE ONLY option, its going to have the perfect interface, its goign to be online, also have LAN single disk play, its going to have voice chat (recently confirmed) and its online is goignt obe FREE. Right tehre they take EVERY thing that Xbox has and basicaly shoot it down, Free is always superior to costly in consumers minds, and 1st person shooter fans are going to most likely flock to REV once they get their hands on it.
Then theres the HD thing, but unliek Ian and others I see this as ana dvantage not a disadvantage because first off by the time tehres enough HD TV in houses xbox 360 ps3 and rev will all be old news. Sony and MS are building it into thei rsystems not to sell systems but to sell HD, plain and simple. For NIntendo to stay out of this right now is better because for one it saves them money and they dont have to cater to a certain limited market, expamle, on a HD TV Xbox 360 is fantastic and is worth getting the system and trying some games, but for a normal TV that doesnt suport HD and doesnt support tha aspect ratio and such ytur goign to be nmissing out on a lot of the game it your going to feel liek yu got cheated if you got an xbox 360 and no hd tv especialy when everytime yo goto teh store and see it running on HD TV your going to feel more cheated, or liely will buy an HD TV which is all MS or Sony want you to do.
Nintendo wont have that feeling yu will play it on any TV and it will look great no matter what. It will still support Progressive Scan so if yo lay it on your HD TV you are still getitng a good pciture so tehres hsouldnt be any complaints there.
Ltes say for instance Nintendo was going to go with HD also heres what I see, peopel who DONT have HD TVs are going to see the difference and are going to feel liek they got ripped off and arent going to suport the system any longer, now since Nintendo is the only system taht wont have that "i got ripped off' feel that gies them a major advantage. a consumer is going to want barain and feautres. Rev offers a major bargain and plenty of features for the average consumer, and offers plenty of neat stuff for the hard core gamers. All thats left is for Nintendo to make great games to show case what it can do and thast where the toruble is rigth now, can Nintendo still maek great games? Well DS certainly has a few but GC hasnt had any really great games in along time, the best they have look better when you see tehres nothing else avauilable but when yo compare to other great games the ebst for GC sstill dont stack up as well, not saying they are all crap cuz tehres still some great games, but its been along time sicne they made a game that was really truely great, tahst why Zelda TP is so impoirtant if it is as good as we all want it to be than they will have acheived 2 things regain conficende in the fans and possibly win back some strays who jumped ship.
Reasing TOP close to REV and making it KNOWN that it will work on the REV wiull also have a major impact.
Post by: BigJim on February 10, 2006, 12:04:28 PM
I thought the PlayStation was a fluke and that GameCube was going to wipe PS2 out. So I can't be accused of not being extremely optimistic at the start of this round. But it's been one step forward and two steps back. That's painful for a Nintendo diehard.
For what it's worth, I think they'll do better next gen than they did this one, because I couldn't fathom them doing worse, sales-wise. They're too good to only have a base of 20 million, or whatever the latest count is.
They're fixing a number of critical errors -- The Cube's late entry to market has been underplayed, but damn, almost 2 years headstart for PS2 was just plain deadly. The Rev design is improved. The DVD support. Built-in online. Virtual Console. etc.
There are still some problems this generation that Nintendo hasn't shown they've solved yet:
- Marketing/product perception/image (they've embraced their passe/k!ddie image for the last 15 years.)
- Narrow audience/demographic (The Cube is for Nintendo fans. Nothing else sells.)
- Weak support, lack of variety (Due to the previous.)
- No killer apps (semi-related: prove why the next controller should be standard)
The HD thing. I really do wish there was optional support for it. I feel like a tool now for having bought an HDTV to partly to prepare for the next generation. But I see it like this... By the time it becomes important to the market at large, the fate of the consoles will probably already be decided. We're going to know who will be first, second, and third (or roughly tied) 2-3 years in. At that point, the inclusion of HD isn't going to compel most swing voters to go one way or another. They'll be living on momentum just like PS2 was even though it was the weakest performer of the bunch. It would, however, help Nintendo's perception/image, as I mentioned above. They shouldn't give people any excuse to be dismissed again, and this might be one of those. I don't know. Personally, yes throw it in. Overall, I begrudgingly tolerate its absence.
There's still room for critical error, and the track record for the last 2 generations isn't beaming, so concern is a fair emotion for anybody that does care.
Post by: trip1eX on February 10, 2006, 12:09:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
... he explained rather clearly why he feels the way he feels.
That's the problem. We all knew how he felt about 400 posts ago.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 10, 2006, 12:33:30 PM
Yeah but at that point pretty much nothing is going to swing people one way or another. Once people think a console is going to "lose" they don't buy it. It's not like people are going to be totally oblivious to HD prior to getting an HDTV. Some people will but the types that have the kind of money to buy consoles won't. If you ever walk into stores like Best Buy you know of HD. It's a buzzword that's thrown on everything to do with TVs. You have to be the type of person still using VHS tapes to not have at least heard of it. So to someone buying a console, even if they don't have HD, the ability to potentially use it someday is going to have some affect on their decision. Basically there's a feature that Sony and MS have and Nintendo doesn't and at first glance that makes the Rev look inferior. Nintendo's been playing catch-up for two generations now so it doesn't look good if they're still behind with the times.
I'll admit that it's not nearly as big of an oversight as cartridges or no online for the Cube. If Nintendo is going to continue to make oversights regarding future technology they might as well make them less significant each time. It might not even matter if Nintendo is really competent in the more important areas. But I think Nintendo has to make a really good impression and it just looks bad if their chronic problem of playing catch up is STILL an issue. Nintendo's got to prove their detractors wrong and an ideal way to do that is to not give people the SAME ammunition to use against them every time. People thought Nintendo made childish games on the N64. So Nintendo turns Zelda into a cartoon after showing a trailer that made Zelda look incredibly cool. Yeah that really helped the k!ddy issue. It's really OBVIOUS stuff like that that always hurts them. So if detractors use Nintendo's inability to match features as an excuse to rag on them why is one of the first pieces of news regarding the Rev about a feature being cut?
Post by: wandering on February 10, 2006, 01:02:18 PM
Quote
Any Nintendo fan knows that when Nintendo does that sort of things it's secret code for "yes that negative rumour is true".
Nintendo doesn't comment on rumors or speculation!
Quote
When the Cube was annouced I was incredibly optimistic about it. I'm not with the Rev. I don't have that confidence. So that to me suggest things didn't improve. That's everything. Nintendo has improved a few things but those a minor compared to that. If I'm more concerned over Nintendo's future now then I was then then I can't say things are better now.
Well, I'm sort of the opposite. Not that I wasn't optimisitc about the cube... I was, especially after Sony and Ms made so many mistakes (PS2 with a weak launch, graphics that didn't look better than the dreamcast for a long while, and an ugly case. Xbox with it's ridiculously huge case and lack of games.) But there was never any strong reason for the cube to succeed: it fixed the mistakes of the previous gen, but didn't offer much of anything over the competition. ..Well, apart from a giant green A button and the color purple.
This time around though, Nintendo is coming out with a console that has 'mainstream ipod-like mega-hit' written all over it.
But then, if you list the rev's 'weird controller' as one of the rev's faults instead of a huge, possibly competition-crushing strength, then I guess you wouldn't agree with that, would you?
Quote
They're still being secretive and saying weird stuff and downplaying things that most people consider positive features and making questionable decisions and acting like they're not competing. Well that's pretty much the same old Nintendo.
Heaven forbid Nintendo be secretive and say weird stuff!
Post by: ShyGuy on February 10, 2006, 01:05:33 PM
Post by: Kairon on February 10, 2006, 01:32:14 PM
Sure, they lost the market because of em. But then again, those cartridges were deemed necessary by Miyamoto so that he could make the best games of that generation, and perhaps even of all time.
I can think of only three major ways for obervers to interpret this event:
1. Miyamoto was wrong, the cartridges were a pig-headed mistake and are indicative of Nintendo's persistance in making unnecessary destructive moves.
2. Miyamoto was justified, Nintendo has always stood for creating the best gaming experience that they envision and they were doing that with the N64. They lost the market leadership and third party support, but that's small potatoes to the thought of Mario 64 not existing in the world.
3. Miyamoto lied. When he later made a comment that Mario 64 would not be possible using CD technology of that day, he was completely off base.
I think the way a gamer views this shapes their relationship to Nintendo:
Viewpoint 1 implies that the observer is valuing market success over the game creator's vision.
Viewpoint 2 implies that it's ok if Nintendo is forever third place in the console war as long as they remain independent, free, financially viable, and capable of bringing videogames where they want to bring them, ala the analog stick, force feedback, satellite buttons and now the Revmote.
Viewpoint 3 implies that Miyamoto is the element that is holding Nintendo back. His push for no load times with the N64 was a selfish demand that was unnecessary and hurt Nintendo. (Compare: Miyamoto allowing his team to turn Windwaker over to Toon-shading, another creative decision that could be argued to be selfishly motivated and damaging to Nintendo as a whole)
...I'm personally a mix of 2 and 3. Make of that what you will.
~Carmine Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: King of Twitch on February 10, 2006, 02:38:33 PM
Post by: trip1eX on February 10, 2006, 03:17:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel
Since this has ceased to be about anything productive and has devolved into Ian flaming, I'll say this: I'm always impressed with his forbearance and restraint in the face of constant rudeness. It would be nice if more people on the internet could manage that.
Hey I take offense with the above statement. This thread was never productive.
I guess it's just sad the boy hangs out here all the while hating what's coming. Wtf is that? That's some sado-masochist sht man. Hey I'll just hate this thing until it's released. I guess I just feel sorry for him. It's like being in a bad marriage. Instead of leaving you just yell and bitch at each other all day every day too afraid to strike it on your own and find joy in something else.
Post by: BigJim on February 10, 2006, 04:34:34 PM
Quote
I'm personally a mix of 2 and 3. Make of that what you will.
So... you think he lied justifiably?
I do vaguely remember an interview with Miyamoto discussing CDs at the time, and it left the impression with me that he wanted to stick with carts because CDs were disruptive (not destructive) and just basically said "I'm used to carts." Funny how that comment is still with me. But he's also later said it was impossible. So, which to believe. There were 3D games on CDs in that era; I don't know why Mario 64 is a special case that would make it literally impossible. There would be loading, but PlayStation had loading too. So it would be a wash. Not to mention, the 64DD wouldn't have been a speed demon either. How was Ura Zelda possible without carts?
So I lean towards a mix of 1 and 3. I respect creative vision, but I think the comfort of carts was more prevalent in the decision. "We aren't making movies," he said in an interview. That sounds more like justification than creative vision.
Side topic: Speaking of interviews (I am digging them up to look back), Miyamoto often spoke candidly about his vision and how Mario 64 and Zelda 64 came about from concept to product. I don't recall Miyamoto ever explaining exactly where the vision for the Revmote came from. All we've heard is company PR, and not from Miyamoto himself. His brain has yet to be picked.
Post by: Kairon on February 10, 2006, 07:07:52 PM
So I don't think he lied, I just think it never occured to him that Mario 64 might've been possible in the way he envisioned it if he had delayed the game for 3 years... but that suggestion brings up a whole slew of OTHER quandaries, lol.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Deguello on February 10, 2006, 10:37:50 PM
The prime example was the conference last year Nintendo held to announce a preponderance of new DS titles. A Ridiculous amount really. From third and first parties. A New Tales game, A new Castlevania (which Ian likes, because it is a longcore hardtime traditional game for longcore hardtime traditional gamers), Almost exclusive Square Enix support (save for a movie or something), Several new games from Nintendo themselves, all of which demonstrated a range of genre. Good news period, no bad news, at all.
What did Ian do? Bitched, at length, about Mario Basket 3v3. One game out of Dozens. He also bitched that it was a waste of Square Enix's talent upon learning it was in fact them doing it and not Nintendo. One S-E game out of the Seven S-Enix games that S-E has planned or already released. He bitched and bitched and bitched some more. And frankly, at that point, even the mods couldn't take it anymore, including myself.
He hates Nintendo's failures yes, but it seems he hates their successes as well. That they could even find a way to succeed with the DS without listening to his ideas must offend him to his core. That the hot new thing in Japan is Brain Training and not something that he likes. He laments their focus on "non-gamers" and passes summary judgement on said games without thinking. He further laments Nintendo "milking" Mario as if it is something they have only been doing recently. He also whines that nobody is original, when he refues to talk about or like original games, and treats every new game with scorn for not being "traditional." He eschews that no DS game needs the touchscreen to exist, that it is not essential to any games concept, which is in the top ten stupid things I have heard this decade. Not misguided, not misunderstood or mis-contexted. Just stupid.
He has become a sad parody of himself. The thing most of the forum feared he would. In that, whenever there is news about Nintendo, any news whatsoever, good or bad, Ian will post and bitch about it, warranted or not. His "devils advocate" scthick may be appealing to those uninitiated, but to anybody that has been here longer, he is just an old, tired "sparkling innovation," changing his stances and picking unwinnable arguments complete with gigantic multi-paragraphed posts in damage control upon any layman's discovery and exposure of the simple and basic flaws in his argument.
Fun at first, thought-provoking seldom, annoying currently. These are the traits of Ian Sane through years of careful examination.
P.S. I do not mean to come down hard on Ian, however, this is a big problem, as he originally was quite prized in my view, as a sort of The_cubed_canuck without all the mental disease. However, lately he has shown to act like him, almost word for word, and it pains me.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 10, 2006, 10:46:47 PM
Post by: Kairon on February 11, 2006, 12:03:27 AM
In Before The Lock.
~Carmine M. Red
(Also a WoW Gamer)
Post by: animecyberrat on February 11, 2006, 04:36:12 AM
Post by: Arbok on February 11, 2006, 05:27:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: animecyberrat
Horrible nasty things!
lol, I forsee a long future of posting for you here....
Post by: Berto2K on February 11, 2006, 08:31:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: animecyberratIntolerable Cruelty
uh oh, is someone having a bad day?
Post by: IceCold on February 11, 2006, 08:37:46 AM
QuoteCalm down man.. he isn't even talking about you in this thread. And in that other thread, all he said was in good fun.. someone had already answered your question about if slang is allowed..
Originally posted by: animecyberrat
Shameful misdeed
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 11, 2006, 08:55:24 AM
Quote
Bannable offense
Well okay, your place or mine?
Post by: animecyberrat on February 11, 2006, 03:42:17 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on February 11, 2006, 04:57:32 PM
Post by: IceCold on February 11, 2006, 06:11:13 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2006, 07:37:33 PM
Post by: Berto2K on February 11, 2006, 11:29:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You won't see me complain much because I just ignore badly written posts. Too much work to decipher that.
Ya, all I see is words, words, words, words.
