Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on November 09, 2005, 12:31:28 PM
Gamerandy.com
I'm willing to put this in the believable folder because it was invented by Katuragi.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 09, 2005, 12:35:05 PM
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on November 09, 2005, 12:36:58 PM
Post by: odifiend on November 09, 2005, 12:45:24 PM
I'd add comments but i think that the way i spelled ridiculous summarizes my thoughts.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 09, 2005, 01:14:49 PM
This sucks though, I was planning on getting a PS3 because I am very happy with my PS2. However, I use it mostly as a "borrow" system. I buy some top tier games, then use those games as collateral for my friend's games. All in all, letting me play games I would normally have to purchase.
It seems like Sony has me under there sight. Targeting me as if I'm a criminal. Well sh!t, If I can't do that then it's just not worth it.
Post by: Guitar Smasher on November 09, 2005, 01:22:38 PM
Post by: ThePerm on November 09, 2005, 01:26:58 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on November 09, 2005, 01:31:15 PM
This is hilarious.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 09, 2005, 01:45:11 PM
Aside from the fact that consumers would be royally PISSED about not being able to buy used games or rent games or even have their friend come over with his game there are some big retail businesses that are going to be upset too.
What about EB? Used sales is part of the game store model.
What about F*CKING BLOCKBUSTER? This completely eliminates rental stores from being able to have anything to do with the PS3. That's a chunk of Blockbuster's business just outright GONE.
And the thing is, pirates will STILL find a way around it. Just like all these other bullsh!t anti-piracy methods the only people getting punished are the honest consumers. The pirates will make a mod chip or find a way to have fake codes and away they'll go. Piracy happens and all you do by going insane with protection schemes is scare the honest people into pirating because in some cases they have to just to use the product they paid for (this is sorta common with PC games).
Nintendo had the best anti-piracy strategy by having a console that couldn't read non-proprietary discs at all and had no way to even put pirated discs inside the console.
I actually hope Sony does this just so I can see them crash and burn. They probably won't but everyone with half a brain knew the N64 was f*cked because of cartridges and Nintendo still did it anyway so you never know.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 09, 2005, 01:55:34 PM
This is such a bad idea I can't even comprehend how many people would completely sh!t themselves with anger and disapointment.
Post by: IceCold on November 09, 2005, 01:55:48 PM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 09, 2005, 01:58:37 PM
If that happened, which it most definitely could, then BlockBuster might not even bother.
Post by: PaLaDiN on November 09, 2005, 02:00:30 PM
Post by: Guitar Smasher on November 09, 2005, 02:11:56 PM
Post by: nickmitch on November 09, 2005, 02:16:58 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on November 09, 2005, 03:30:04 PM
Post by: stevey on November 09, 2005, 04:19:30 PM
ahhhhhhh! there going to die and this isn’t there 1st timeor 2nd time they did something evil like this.
Post by: Djunknown on November 09, 2005, 04:31:25 PM
I can see them executing this concept in Japan, where selling used games is a big no-no last I heard. Even then it'd be a big stinker.
But this news make Kutaragi look a bit loopy. Hell, it makes Iwata look almost sane!
Post by: nitsu niflheim on November 09, 2005, 04:44:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
The most amusing thing is that Sony's hardware is by far the worst of the 3 (though XBoxes tend to have a lot of problems too), thus all your games would become unplayable if it broke...Unless there is some way of them working on a "virgin" PS3...
That is the very first thing I thought of when I read about this early today. I take it as just another way for Sony to bump up their sales figures. PS3 breaks... have to buy a new PS3, and since each game is encoded or whatever for the system that broke... you'll have to buy them all over again to play them... Sony racks up money and Media is blind because Nintendo is Evil!
And just to point it out... Your PS3 is going to break, just like your PS2 broke and just like your PS broke. It's Fate!!!
Post by: mantidor on November 09, 2005, 05:19:03 PM
sorry to burst your bubble hehe
Also, as far as I know, Japan is the holly land of used games ( or just games for that matter), they still sell used famicom and superfamicom cartridges on a regular basis in Akihabara.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 10, 2005, 04:41:12 AM
Post by: Pale on November 10, 2005, 05:31:57 AM
I just still don't get why so many people let EB and Gamestop rip them off so much by buying the used games. They marke them up to like 10% below the cost of the new game itself and make a SIGNIFICANTLY larger profit than they do selling the new ones. They could sell used games for half the price they sell them for and still come out way ahead, yet people still think saving two dollars is worth lining the retail outlets' pockets instead of the people who actually made the game.
I won't argue that a decision like this wouldn't hurt Sony tremendously, but I wouldn't hold it against them at all. To them and everyone else who makes games, selling used games is only one notch below pure piracy.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on November 10, 2005, 06:11:32 AM
I for one only buy used games if I can't get them new. And the 5 dollar discount that Gamestop.com and EBGames.com sell used games as opposed to their new game counterpart is not an incentive to buy because even if the game is only a month old, you will run the chance of not getting the case and instruction manual. And five dollars really doesn't cut it either, anyway you look at it. It it were like 15 or 20 dollars cheaper them yeah, maybe, it would be a good thing to look into.
And then you look to next generation where games are going to sell about 10 dollars more per game than the current generation, used games are going to evenmore important because that extra 10 dollars you will be paying isn't going to be for extra content (some cases, yeah, maybe, but on a average game, no.) so you are going to be paying 60 dollars for a game that you used to get for 50 dollars and people who don't have a lot of money to spend on games are going to be taking a closer look at the prices. And parents, who I think it has been proved, (not sure though) buys more games than any other group is going to look at the price and probably won't buy as many games for their children anymore. That extra ten dollars can go for food or clothes.
I think next gen used games are going to be more important than this gen.
Post by: Pale on November 10, 2005, 06:42:11 AM
You do have a point about the out of print games though. Assuming this possible trick by Sony involves some sort of online validation, maybe they could shut it off after a game has been out of print for a sufficient amount of time. Again though, you can't fault them for trying to protect their new games. People are stupidly using places like gamestop and eb as rental places, buying a game used, trading it in so someone else can buy it used. There is a reason why rental places have to pay a lot more for a game they are going to rent out than normal retail. If a dozen people get to play a game and beat it in its first 2 months of release, and to Sony it appears they only sold 1 copy, that just isn't right. It's not fair to the publisher and it's not fair to the developer.
As far as the concept of out of print games being hard to find, this is the biggest argument for online distribution of titles. I for one still like to get hard copies of my games, but something could be said for being able to purchase any game, even if it is 3 years old.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 10, 2005, 08:26:58 AM
Hey, MS would still be in this. Nintendo would still have to put up a good fight with them.
You know Pale some of us get used games from places other than EB and actually get a good deal on them. Case in point this local store in my area marks used games down by at least $20 so there is significant savings to the consumer to get a used copy. I don't think it's fair to damn used game sales just because idiots let EB and Gamestop jerk them around.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on November 10, 2005, 09:23:13 AM
Post by: vudu on November 10, 2005, 09:35:10 AM
QuoteMost pirating on the PS2 and Xbox is done through hard drives, not burned discs.
Originally posted by: Guitar Smasher
And really, what's the point? PS3 will use Blu-Ray. I don't know about you, but I don't have a Blu-Ray burner. I'm not to knowledgeable about this pirating business, but wouldn't that be required?
Post by: KDR_11k on November 10, 2005, 09:40:31 AM
Post by: Arbok on November 10, 2005, 11:15:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
EB and Gamestop would just mark their used games 2 dollars below that and people would still buy them.
No they wouldn't, at least I wouldn't. If it's a choice between buying a new game for $50 or a used one for $40, I will go with the used one. If it's a choice between buying a new game for $30 and a used one for $28, I will take the new one which I know will work and doesn't have the chance of having any scratches or other problems.
Post by: Pale on November 10, 2005, 11:41:16 AM
But I'm honestly curious what all of your opinions are of the fact that it DOES take money away from publishers and developers (when the game is still in print). Are you all just of the popular opinion that these people already have all the money they need so why not rip them off a bit?
I was always careful to imply that the stupid people will allow themselves to get ripped off by places like EB and Gamestop when it comes to buying used games. I understand most (if not all) of the people that are into video games enough to post on forumsm about them will look for the good deals and not allow themselves to be ripped off. That doesn't change the fact that you are still robbing the owners of the IP of financial gain. To make an extreme example... Eternal Darkness didn't sell very well. It's probable that this had something to do witht he fact that SK is now deving for the X-Box. What if twice as many people actually played ED in it's prime than actually sold it, because every person that beat it sold it on the used market? What happens if all those people who bought it used, sold it again? Wow, maybe it would actually have been a successful game if all those people went out and bought it for real.
Obviously I am playing devil's advocate a bit here, but so many people ignore the other side in situations like this. Who cares about them if it makes our life easier and cheaper right?
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 10, 2005, 12:05:57 PM
Look Below....
Post by: Ian Sane on November 10, 2005, 12:07:16 PM
It doesn't take away money because for that physical copy the publisher/developer has already been paid. Bob bought the game and at that point that physical copy is his. He owns that disc and can do whatever he wants with it. That's what a sale is. So later he sells it to EB. Now the disc is there's. They sell it to me. Now it's mine. It's no different then buying something from a thrift store or a garage sale.
Plus where it does it stop? If you make it so that you can't sell used games then why not make it so I can't sell ANYTHING used? Mattel doesn't get paid for that used He-Man figure I bought at Value Village. Just because this is electronic doesn't make it different. Both required R&D and manufacturing expenses. It's just that the music industry has made people feel like crooks over anything involving electronic IP and toy makers, furniture manufacturers, car companies, etc haven't.
Plus if used game sales are eating significantly into your game's sales it means your game SUCKS so tough sh!t. People keep better gamers longer. The games where a week after release you see used copies next to new ones are crap. Make great games and people will want to buy your game on the first day (ie: when there are no used copies available yet) and won't return them the next day.
Post by: Arbok on November 10, 2005, 12:13:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
Wow, maybe it would actually have been a successful game if all those people went out and bought it for real.
The problem is that there can be a huge difference in price between used and new. For example, I bought Def Jam Vendetta used at a EB for $7. Fun game, but would I have been willing to slap down the full price for it? No. So I wouldn't have been effecting EA's bottomline by doing that. Also... didn't your mom ever teach you that recycling was good for the environment?
Post by: couchmonkey on November 10, 2005, 12:44:16 PM
I generally agree with Ian's summary of why used games (and anything else) are okay. If people aren't buying new games, maybe the games aren't good enough, or maybe the market is saturated? That's the cost of doing business.
It's also why a lot of products suck. When LED Christmas lights were first put out on the market, the claim is that they had thousands of hours of life. Basically, you'd never need to buy a bulb again. The following year, my sister's company started selling some LED Christmas lights which were under one of the popular Christmas light brands, and the bulbs were burning out right there in the store after a few hundred hours of use. Now, I shouldn't go blaming the corporation, it may be that the lights were never as good as advertised, but I can't help but wonder if the corporation purposely bought and crippled the technology, knowing that it would go out of business if someone was selling Christmas lights that could last for years and years without new bulbs.
Post by: Pale on November 10, 2005, 02:02:37 PM
I don't promote the idea of silly protection on the games themselves. What I think is a good idea is for all of the big companies to stop giving stores that thrive in the used game market as many new games to sell. If they want to sell their used games let them. There are plenty of other outlets that you can sell your new games through.
I will never EVER buy a in print used game from one of those stores. I will however, buy one from ebay if I find a good deal. Pure owner to owner swapping is a lot different than having a middle man mark things up.
Post by: Galford on November 10, 2005, 04:37:53 PM
I hope Sony does realize one of the reasons the PS2 didn't die an early death,
was the large library of PSX titles that could be played during that first critical year of
the PS2's life.
Does this would kill one the maint features of the PS3 and piss of a lot of
developers/publishers at the same time.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 11, 2005, 04:09:57 AM
Post by: foolish03 on November 11, 2005, 04:33:25 AM
Post by: mantidor on November 11, 2005, 05:28:20 AM
, anyway, I afterwards found out that the patent in fact, is real, but its old and this 2003 thing was just a revision. It makes sense with sony's strategy though, they have been craving to have full control of a mainstream media format since the mini disk (or even the Beta max), if Blue Ray is succesful, expect sony to pull this ugly trick. And then expect to see it biting them in the ass.
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on November 11, 2005, 08:04:27 AM
They don't know.
gamespot.com
Bogus or not bogus?: Sony has the technology, but it's too early to tell if it will use it.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 11, 2005, 08:55:41 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 11, 2005, 09:24:52 AM
The Bluray No used games format block makes sense. Used games and renting games have been eatting into profits. My question is how does this effect game rentals?
I guess I don't completely understand what Sony is trying to do.
Post by: mantidor on November 11, 2005, 09:56:13 AM
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on November 11, 2005, 11:07:11 AM
Post by: vudu on November 11, 2005, 11:32:39 AM
QuoteAlso porn. You forgot porn. A format only succeeds if there is a ready supply of porn.
A format blooms if and only if its easy to pirate, theres overwhelming evidence of such thing and zero evidence proving the opposite.
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on November 11, 2005, 11:49:49 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 11, 2005, 10:41:37 PM
Stevey posted a link to that already, I'll give you the Register version. Apparently they have stopped producing it after a severe backlash including lawsuits but they don't apologize. Sony never apologizes, not for the Disk Read Errors, not for the PSP's [] button, not for this virus.
Basically they put a "DRM Driver" into the system that acts exactly like a rootkit (a kind of virus that compromises system functions to hide itself), it conceals everything with a $sys$ name from the Windows API and prevents reading of CD audio data from some CDs and if you delete the rootkit those parts of the API will fail completely. There already are worms that use the $sys$ name to hide themselves from your anti-virus software. To me this rootkit qualifies as a virus and illegal computer intrusion (250k$ fine, 15 years of jailtime).
Post by: UncleBob on November 12, 2005, 04:44:44 AM
Remember, this is pure speculation.
What if the majority of games do not use this tech. Spongebob's Big Adventure or World Poker Tour 200X are just fine and dandy used or new.
But the Big releases... Grand Theft Auto 5: Rape Yo Mama - no used games here... Socom 3 - ditto.
Would that be enough to hurt Sony?
Post by: KDR_11k on November 12, 2005, 06:30:24 AM
Post by: UncleBob on November 12, 2005, 05:47:49 PM
Post by: Kairon on November 12, 2005, 08:52:27 PM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: KDR_11k on November 12, 2005, 10:37:23 PM
This is Sony we're talking about. They have created a format that just might be able to succeed so now they're bogging it down with idiotic features so it will perpetuate the Sony track record.
Post by: wandering on November 12, 2005, 11:27:16 PM
Quote
But we're still talking about the gotta-have games... is some lame copy protection enough to stop people from buying the games?
If the ps3 prevents me from even sharing or reselling my ps3 games, then for me, yes. Because if that were to happen, there's no way I would buy a ps3.
Post by: Kairon on November 13, 2005, 11:01:07 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ian Sane on November 14, 2005, 08:39:44 AM
But the Big releases... Grand Theft Auto 5: Rape Yo Mama - no used games here... Socom 3 - ditto.
Would that be enough to hurt Sony?"
If anything the big releases are what matters most because that's what affects the most people. If World Poker Tour 200X had it odds are very few people would even know about it. But GTA? Everyone would know about it and this is like a universally bad thing in the eyes of consumers. If Sony wanted to do this their best bet would be to limit it to minor titles and gradually introduce it. Though that's not a good idea either, it would just let them get away with it for a little while longer. Basically if Sony gets caught doing this by the general public they're screwed.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 15, 2005, 05:16:49 AM
Post by: wandering on November 15, 2005, 05:55:15 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 15, 2005, 07:39:11 AM
Copyright does not cover volatile (RAM) copies the devices make in order to interpret the data.
Post by: stevey on November 15, 2005, 11:05:42 AM
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on November 16, 2005, 11:55:28 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 17, 2005, 02:24:12 AM
