Post by: NotSoStu on September 20, 2005, 12:12:24 PM
8 months is too long. >_<
Post by: Strell on September 20, 2005, 12:15:52 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on September 20, 2005, 12:18:58 PM
Post by: NotSoStu on September 20, 2005, 12:28:38 PM
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=11639
However, hopefully this "within the next month" stuff will be *gasp* GAMES?!
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on September 20, 2005, 12:32:02 PM
And then there's always CES and GDC, so I expect that we'll know a lot more when E3 2006 rolls around.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 20, 2005, 12:32:18 PM
Unless what they're hiding is bad. If the graphics are total ass or they don't have any decent games in the works then I could see the need for secrecy. But if that's the case they're f*cked anyway so they might as well let the cat out of the bag now instead of letting us get hyped up for a disappointment.
I am pretty concerned that they've let these "the Rev is underpowered" rumours go on without making any effort to kill them. Have they not revealed the specs yet or shown any screens because the Rev IS underpowered?
Post by: Artimus on September 20, 2005, 12:35:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Unless what they're hiding is bad. If the graphics are total ass or they don't have any decent games in the works then I could see the need for secrecy.
Or the games need to be 'blow them away' before being unveiled, and they're not that far along in development.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 20, 2005, 12:53:25 PM
That too, but they SHOULD be a little further along than that at this point.
I'm not the only person sceptical about this controller. They can't leave us hanging forever. We need to see something to sell us on the concept like Super Mario 64 did for the analog stick.
Post by: KnowsNothing on September 20, 2005, 12:59:55 PM
Post by: ThePerm on September 20, 2005, 01:04:34 PM
Post by: Artimus on September 20, 2005, 01:06:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Or the games need to be 'blow them away' before being unveiled, and they're not that far along in development."
That too, but they SHOULD be a little further along than that at this point.
I'm not the only person sceptical about this controller. They can't leave us hanging forever. We need to see something to sell us on the concept like Super Mario 64 did for the analog stick.
The system is about a year away. Assuming an 18 month development cycle that would mean the games were around 1/3 done. When you consider all the things like graphics, sound and such come in the last third of the cycle...not so likely. They could show off renders, but that hardly does anything.
Sony hasn't showed a playable PS3 game yet, remember.
Post by: KnowsNothing on September 20, 2005, 01:16:59 PM
Quote
Sony hasn't showed a playable PS3 game yet, remember.
While I agree with you point, that's hardly a convincing argument
Sony has showed off movies of what they claim to be real time- whether it will look like that when you're playing doesn't matter, it's certainly gotten a lot of people pumped.In the case of the Rev though, Nintendo wants people to see the Rev and play the Rev at the same time, so it's likely that we'll get a ton of info at E3 and not much until then...
Post by: Artimus on September 20, 2005, 01:24:43 PM
If Sony isn't ready for their traditionally controlled games to be played, it's a hard argument to blame Nintendo for the same.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 20, 2005, 01:35:27 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on September 20, 2005, 01:39:13 PM
I think Nintendo will show something before E3, though. The company has become much less secretive. It used to be that you could expect to hear almost nothing between Christmas and E3 except for games that were actually being released in that period, but lately there are no surprises left at E3, they give them all away during the first quarter or so of the year (kind of disappointing, in a way). My guess is they'll show one or two key games at GDC or some such in spring. Between now and then, there will be a steady trickle of rather boring information.
Post by: KnowsNothing on September 20, 2005, 01:52:09 PM
Quote
But the argument is Nintendo needs to convince people the controller is good, and that has to be done with playing. So videos won't be enough.
I didn't word it clearly, but that's basically what my last sentance said in my prior post
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 20, 2005, 02:51:41 PM
Post by: Caliban on September 20, 2005, 05:06:16 PM
Post by: NotSoStu on September 20, 2005, 05:12:25 PM
And we've seen the controller.
So now what?
Post by: Caliban on September 20, 2005, 05:15:25 PM
Post by: NotSoStu on September 20, 2005, 06:30:21 PM
Post by: IceCold on September 20, 2005, 07:32:33 PM
QuoteMSRP of 19.99 pounds? That's $40 Canadian! Even with the reduced price, that's $30 CDN. I expected at least 5 or 10 dollars less for the USB dongle, especially with how cheap routers which I can use for anything are going. In fact, I saw a more than decent router for $30 after all the rebates. Maybe it's the whole convenience thing, but it's still pretty expensive.
A Nintendo-branded USB Wi-Fi access point will appear on the shelves along side the first Wi-Fi enabled game for use by gamers who don't have a wireless Internet connection already set up - which would suggest that third party wireless access points can also be used.
Online retailer Play is already taking pre-orders for the "Nintendo DS USB Access Point", due for release on November 11. The adaptor is priced at GBP 14.99, a saving on what Play claims is an RRP of GBP 19.99.
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 20, 2005, 09:53:44 PM
It's a smart move as all the details that we get will be closely examined and not passed over for other less important crap. But yeah, I really want to see some game footage before Christmas. And it would be VERY smart of Nintendo to show some before the x360 comes out.
Post by: ShyGuy on September 20, 2005, 11:38:04 PM
Post by: Michael8983 on September 21, 2005, 08:57:23 AM
It could probably whip up some amazing looking demos representing the games that are in developer like it did at the Spaceworld where the Gamecube was revealed the problem is the actual games could still go through major changes by the time they're actualy released.
Nintendo showed an ultra-realistic Zelda at Spaceworld but ended up making it a cartoon.
It showed Samus running around in a third-person view but ended up putting her in a first-person-perspective game. Luigi was running around, sliding down banisters and most notably NOT carrying a vacuume when his game was first revealed. People were p*ssed off when these titles were finally revealed in detail the nexy year and were nothing like what people had imagined them to be.
Post by: Nile Boogie on September 21, 2005, 10:14:46 AM
Post by: stevey on September 21, 2005, 12:06:48 PM
Post by: Caliban on September 21, 2005, 02:02:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Nile Boogie: NRS
Heh I like that one, Nintendo Revolution System = NRS. NRS+NRC=? I have no idea yet, only when I get my hands on it.
On topic, yeah, ah, I care just a little bit about the NRS specs but just because I'm somewhat of a tech geek and the innards of that beast will be very pleasing to my eyes *crawls back into cave*.
Post by: majortom1981 on September 21, 2005, 02:21:02 PM
They also said there are still some surprises that they have yet to reveal with the revolution .
Post by: nickmitch on September 21, 2005, 05:45:44 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 21, 2005, 06:47:12 PM
Post by: Nile Boogie on September 21, 2005, 07:44:09 PM
Post by: mantidor on September 21, 2005, 07:53:51 PM
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 21, 2005, 09:13:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Michael8983
I think Nintendo is just worrying about repeating the Zelda incident.
It could probably whip up some amazing looking demos representing the games that are in developer like it did at the Spaceworld where the Gamecube was revealed the problem is the actual games could still go through major changes by the time they're actualy released.
Nintendo showed an ultra-realistic Zelda at Spaceworld but ended up making it a cartoon.
It showed Samus running around in a third-person view but ended up putting her in a first-person-perspective game. Luigi was running around, sliding down banisters and most notably NOT carrying a vacuume when his game was first revealed. People were p*ssed off when these titles were finally revealed in detail the nexy year and were nothing like what people had imagined them to be.
Your theory may be correct. I know that in retrospect in seems like Nintendo took an awful lot of heat for changing key details to games that we had already assumed too much about. But hey, that was better than seeing nothing and having nothing to talk about for a prolonged period of time. I mean we still bought the damn games. Just look how well LM has sold. And MP sold great as well. MP 2 didn't do as hot because a lot of gamers still haven't beat the first one!
Regardless of how paranoid Nintendo may be (and are) they need to get those Rev demos and in-game footage out before Christmas. Granted E3 will help make up for any lost public perception momentum but still, a steady flow of information is a much healthier way to promote the Rev. Especially since we already know the BIG surprise.
Post by: mantidor on September 21, 2005, 09:22:20 PM
or do we?
Theres a quote on a Nintendo PR guy that says something like this " this is the same case that when we announced the double screen for the DS, we wanted people to get used to that idea before we talk about the touchscreen, is the same case with the Rev new regarding the controller".The sad thing is... I cant remember if it was a fake quote or not
damn the internet!
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 21, 2005, 09:44:12 PM
And if there is a surprise bigger than the controller...well Nintendo would be screwed then. Innovation is great but people can only stand so much change, innovation and vision before they vote for George W. Bush, I mean before they buy a 360 or PS3 instead...ahem.
Post by: BlkPaladin on September 21, 2005, 10:00:21 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on September 22, 2005, 05:45:15 AM
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 22, 2005, 11:16:26 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 22, 2005, 12:56:59 PM
Post by: nickmitch on September 22, 2005, 04:23:43 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on September 22, 2005, 04:40:53 PM
Post by: The Omen on September 22, 2005, 05:03:29 PM
Quote
And if there is a surprise bigger than the controller...well Nintendo would be screwed then. Innovation is great but people can only stand so much change, innovation and vision before they vote for George W. Bush, I mean before they buy a 360 or PS3 instead...ahem.
People are very adaptable. While we are creatures of habit, we form new habits rather easily. This has been proven in the technology field time and time again. Think about Lp's, and the switch to 8 track, then cassette tapes, then CD's. As long as the technology is truly a step forward, and it's significantly more convenient, are these changes universally appealing. For instance, albums sound better than CD's, but for pure convenience, cd's win in a landslide. The difference in sound quality is negligible to all but the trained ear, so for the consumer, it's a great trade-off.
That's why I think this extreme change will be good. It's been 20 years since the last major innovation, with the NES, and that's too long.
Post by: mantidor on September 22, 2005, 05:23:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"Properly done" also being a synonym of "Nintendo"...
except marketing ^_^
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 22, 2005, 09:06:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: The OmenQuote
And if there is a surprise bigger than the controller...well Nintendo would be screwed then. Innovation is great but people can only stand so much change, innovation and vision before they vote for George W. Bush, I mean before they buy a 360 or PS3 instead...ahem.
People are very adaptable. While we are creatures of habit, we form new habits rather easily. This has been proven in the technology field time and time again. Think about Lp's, and the switch to 8 track, then cassette tapes, then CD's. As long as the technology is truly a step forward, and it's significantly more convenient, are these changes universally appealing. For instance, albums sound better than CD's, but for pure convenience, cd's win in a landslide. The difference in sound quality is negligible to all but the trained ear, so for the consumer, it's a great trade-off.
That's why I think this extreme change will be good. It's been 20 years since the last major innovation, with the NES, and that's too long.
People ARE adaptable. But as I said, only to a certain extent. The controller is one thing. But if there is something more than that, then people will start becoming weirded out by the Rev and we don't want that. Sure people upgraded from tapes to CDs, yeah. But they didn't have to listen to music through their butt or anything once CDs came out.
Change is good. But all things are good in moderation. Change being no excepetion to that rule.
Post by: MrMojoRising on September 23, 2005, 12:54:04 AM
I don't see how they could do anything too crazy, unless they neglected to announce that Nintendo On is real or something...which it definately isn't. I don't think whatever else they have is going to scare people away, remember they keep talking about bringing people in.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 23, 2005, 08:58:18 AM
Gaming is an active experience so it's much harder to adapt to. You have to get used to doing different things to get the same results. It's not like switching from tapes to CDs. It's more like switching from guitar to piano. You have to do different things to produce the same note.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 23, 2005, 09:04:10 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 23, 2005, 09:13:06 AM
Like going from a 'phantom of the opera' organ to a really nice keyboard...
I can still do everything that the organ can do, but I can do much much more,
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 23, 2005, 10:27:09 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 23, 2005, 10:51:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Don'tHate742
Rancid Planet: You crack me up man...keep up the good work!
Post by: The Omen on September 23, 2005, 11:00:29 AM
Quote
Comparing a controller change, particularly one this major, to the switch from tapes to CDs isn't a good comparison. Listening to music is a passive experience. You don't have to do anything. Provided you're still hearing music and it still sounds pretty much the same then any change is easy to adapt to. Same with tapes to DVDs. You look at a screen and watch a movie.
You are forgetting the main factor-they had to buy new equipment to view the same movies, or listen to the same music. Get it? And they were willing to do so, sometimes at outlandish prices. (DVD players, and CD players debuted for over $1000). In that regard, it is a good comparison. It's buying a whole new tech, to do the same things, only easier. But in Nintendo's case, they want to do this, and supply even better material, not just the same old, same old.
Both examples are a change in the way of doing the same things. The point is not the music, the games, or the movies. It's the technology in which we listen/watch/play them.
Post by: Caliban on September 23, 2005, 12:38:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Comparing a controller change, particularly one this major, to the switch from tapes to CDs isn't a good comparison. Listening to music is a passive experience. You don't have to do anything. Provided you're still hearing music and it still sounds pretty much the same then any change is easy to adapt to. Same with tapes to DVDs. You look at a screen and watch a movie.
Gaming is an active experience so it's much harder to adapt to. You have to get used to doing different things to get the same results. It's not like switching from tapes to CDs. It's more like switching from guitar to piano. You have to do different things to produce the same note.
And this coming from the guy that used the release of New-Cola to substitute the Old-Cola as an anology for the NRC. Hey, we all make mistakes, don't we?!
Post by: Ian Sane on September 23, 2005, 12:46:09 PM
Someone obviously has never played an instrument before.
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 23, 2005, 12:47:57 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 23, 2005, 12:51:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"You are still doing the same thing, so comparing it to switching from guitar to piano isn't logical...You are taking a 'guitar' and making it easier to use..."
Someone obviously has never played an instrument before.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about videogames...
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 23, 2005, 12:53:35 PM
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on September 23, 2005, 12:54:06 PM
Quote
Gaming is an active experience so it's much harder to adapt to. You have to get used to doing different things to get the same results. It's not like switching from tapes to CDs. It's more like switching from guitar to piano. You have to do different things to produce the same note.
But thanks to the controller shell, this is a piano that can be held and played like a guitar
Also Ian, why are you so critical of everything that nintendo produces before you get a chance to try it? As I recall you hated the DS idea when it was announced and that's turned out pretty well for nintendo.
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 23, 2005, 12:57:58 PM
And a piano you can hold like a guitar? Yeah if you're The freaking Big Show.
Post by: vudu on September 23, 2005, 01:01:03 PM
QuoteWhat about the Whammy bar? I'm sure that seemed pretty far out there when it first came out. Or how about that pedal that makes your guitar go wah-wah-whaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!?
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"You are still doing the same thing, so comparing it to switching from guitar to piano isn't logical...You are taking a 'guitar' and making it easier to use..."
Someone obviously has never played an instrument before.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 23, 2005, 01:17:09 PM
So do I. Things were so much more fun when I thought the N64 was a fluke and that without the stupid cartridge goof-up Nintendo would be able to make up tons of lost ground. It really sucks to watch a company you love screw up some of the most easy things imaginable all while eating away at your patience and enthusiasm until you're all cynical and don't trust the company to do anything right anymore. Being a Nintendo fan for the last five years has been like watching a loved one destroy their life in front of you.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 23, 2005, 01:28:09 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 23, 2005, 01:44:58 PM
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on September 23, 2005, 01:58:04 PM
Not only that but it solves the problems of traditional games with the controller shell and GCN ports.
Basically you'll be able to play pretty much every game type currently on the market, along with a bunch of new ones as well.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 23, 2005, 02:03:33 PM
No I want them to do what they SHOULD have done this gen. That would not drive them into the dirt. The Cube's "failure" is not due AT ALL to traditional games. It has entirely to do with Nintendo f*cking stupid little things up that anyone with half a brain spotted 100 miles away.
Nintendo would be on the way back up if they just stopped shooting themselves in the foot. This new strategy is just going to alienate them more from the current gaming market. They'll either dig themselves into an even bigger hole or they'll be forever niche with their precious non-gamers while the hardcore gaming crowd completely ignores them.
Nintendo's biggest problem can be summed up with "Xbox 360 or PS3?" This strategy won't fix that.
Post by: Kairon on September 23, 2005, 02:39:11 PM
I don't think that's how Nintendo themselves measure success. You gotta ask yourself, "What would Miyamoto do?"
The man who made Mario, I believe, could care less whether he sells 20 million consoles or 40 million, he could care less over whether the games he's put his heart and soul into are described as homosexual or whether he's protrayed as an out-of-touch eccentric who isn't relevant to today's age.
It's the fanboys who seem to feel the need to prove themselves by demolishing an imaginary opponent. In the meantime, all Miyamoto is hoping to do is create new games that are fun, innovative, and rediscover the magic that we all associate with his best games.
We all say we love Nintendo. We all say we really want them to succeed. But do we want them to succeed according to our standards or their own? How do we measure our love? Our success? Do we love Nintendo enough to let them risk failure?
Are we parents forcing their child to become a TV pop idol, or the next Olympic skater, or the star football quarterback? Are we people who can define our satisfaction in celebrities by how often they pop up in the tabloids, or whether their divorce was messy or clean? Are we people who only measure art by how much it can sell for, who only measure a college basketball team by how many star players it can bribe to sign up, who will only stay friends with someone as long as they've got money and radiate success?
I don't think Miyamoto is any of those people. I don't think he even cares about the same things, the market, the mindshare, the perception, the money.
And I don't think I want to be any of those people too. As a Nintendo fanboy, I'm willing to let Nintendo succeed or fail on their own terms, because I believe in them enough to accept that it's not beating a game that counts, it's how much fun you had while playing.
Actually, that's it. I judge my Nintendo by the fun they can create. And they've never once failed me on that point.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: wandering on September 23, 2005, 03:07:25 PM
^Quote
Originally posted by IanSane:
No I want them to do what they SHOULD have done this gen. That would not drive them into the dirt. The Cube's "failure" is not due AT ALL to traditional games. It has entirely to do with Nintendo f*cking stupid little things up that anyone with half a brain spotted 100 miles away.
You keep talking about Nintendo's obvious mistakes Ian, but I honestly don't see them.
Smaller disk sizes? That was a good trade-off between load times and disk space, and it worked well for 90% of the games. Toyish appearance? They were trying to make the system more fun-looking and inviting. Inferior graphics? They found a good middle ground between power and price, and the system produces extremely impressive visuals. Poor launch line-up? I'm sure launching with a photo-real Star Wars game, Super Smash Bros, a new Miyamoto IP, a new Wave Race AND a new luigi game didn't seem like a bad idea at the time....especially in comparison to PS2's lineup. No DVD player? They were keeping costs down by removing extraneous extras. Bad advertising? Cube's ads were pretty cool in the beginning, actually. Not great, but not nearly as bad as the N64's early ads apparently were.
Now, some of these things, in retrospect may look like bad desiscions. But I wouldn't call any of them obvious mistakes. If you want to talk about obvious mistakes, talk about launching with a crap lineup, or making over-hyped overly fragile hardware, or not making enough hardware for launch, or launching with the most gigantic/uncomfortable controoller ever, or making the biggest/ugliest system ever, etc.
You did get one thing right, though: you don't want Nintendo to do next generation what they did this generation. You want Nintendo to make a CLONE of their competitor's systems, and then put Nintendo's games on it. And if Nintendo did that, they wouldn't be Nintendo.
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 23, 2005, 03:36:40 PM
I've seen you make this point before but I never saw you back it up. How come the NES sold better than the SNES, Ian? Wasn't SNES the better console in your opinion? Do you think Nintendo made any really obvious mistakes there? Why didn't they go up further?
I think one of us is in denial here but I'm not sure who it is. Either they're failing because they're STILL offering the traditional control and games (and you're in denial because you love those games) or they're failing because they've been making massively stupid mistakes ever since the NES (and I'm in denial because I don't really believe that).
Edit: Besides, Kairon is right. The GC has definitely been my favorite console so far. I've got more games than I can count for it at the moment. Judging it by any standard that doesn't involve money, the GC was a resounding success for me... something I hadn't felt since the NES.
Post by: Artimus on September 23, 2005, 03:40:46 PM
Post by: The Omen on September 23, 2005, 04:54:25 PM
Quote
I've seen you make this point before but I never saw you back it up. How come the NES sold better than the SNES, Ian? Wasn't SNES the better console in your opinion? Do you think Nintendo made any really obvious mistakes there? Why didn't they go up further?
I'll field that one, Ian. The NES sold better because they kicked Segas ass. The SNES would have done the same, were it not for the massive ego of Nintendo, and the oppurtunism of Sega. Sega released the Genesis 2 years prior to the SNES. Which is why it didn't sell as well. Sega were ensconced as a true 16 bit system, and began to eat away at the NES stranglehold. Finally, slow witted Nintendo woke up and said, "hey, we better do something" and released the SNES, which coincidentally is still the best system of all time.
Quote
Edit: Besides, Kairon is right. The GC has definitely been my favorite console so far. I've got more games than I can count for it at the moment. Judging it by any standard that doesn't involve money, the GC was a resounding success for me... something I hadn't felt since the NES.
Poppycock! The Snes had the best game lineup possibly ever. It had the best game in every genre...perhaps ever. While I like my GC, the only thing better about it over the Snes has been the graphics.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 23, 2005, 05:06:39 PM
These are the past 5 cover-page features:
1. Twilight Princess (cool)
2. Mario Kart/Wi-Fi (cool)
3. Shadow the Craphog (OMG teh suck)
4. Harry Pothead and the Sparkle Stick (OMG teh ghey)
5. Pokemon: Fail'd Emoticon (meh, ENOUGH ALREADY)
That's 3 consecutive months of weakness. Great way to deter readers and induce vomitting. Shadow was never interesting nor cool to begin with. EA + Movie License + Pubescent Dork = TRY AGAIN NEXT MONTH. And Pokemon, one of the central causes for Nintendo's "artificial" audience -- an audience that may have bought Nintendo consoles and increased sales numbers on paper, but never bothered with the likes of Conker, Perfect Dark, Eternal Darkness, Geist (you gcn owners make me sad), Resident Evil, and countless other 3rd party games -- attracts the wrong kind of customers and deters the right kind, one with greater and varied buying potential. It displeases me to touch my mail and see these covers, and they do a good job of not being looked at and accumulating piles of unsold magazines at my local gamestores.
3 consecutive months of FAIL. Why not feature Geist? Another Code? Phoenix Wright? One Piece? Mario Baseball? Advance Wars DS? Battalion Wars? Castlevania DS? Fire Emblem will be featured next month, but why did it take 4 months to finally showcase something worthwhile? Cuz you are teh SUCK, Nintendo?
*SPEWS FORTH OPINIONATED MADNESS*
Post by: wandering on September 23, 2005, 05:07:21 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 23, 2005, 05:31:31 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 23, 2005, 06:30:26 PM
"You cannot look at mind-blowing games like Super Mario Bros, LOZ, ALTP, M64, OOT, etc, and say that GameCube has offered anything better."
We're talking about Gamecube, right? I see your LOZ, AlltP and Oot and I raise you a WW/4 swords, both of which I enjoyed more than any of those (especially OoT... massively overrated). You listed the wrong Marios... Mario 3 was the best. You forgot to mention Super Metroid, but Metroid Prime 1/2 trounces it in every way (my secondmost favorite game ever). Chrono Trigger/FF6? Tales of Symphonia (my favorite RPG). Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat? SSBM (one of the only fighters I actually care about). I never got into Goldeneye. What am I missing? Oh right... ED, RE4, VJ1, Pikmin 2. Tell me again why N64 and SNES should appeal to me more? Especially the N64... at least the SNES was decent for its time.
Hell, I like the GBA more than the SNES and N64 combined, and the DS is getting there; all it needs is Zelda and Metroid Dread (what happened to that game?).
But that's just my opinion. You can lynch me now.
Post by: wandering on September 23, 2005, 06:47:24 PM
What? WHAT? WHAT?
"N64... That was a boring console"
AAAAAHHHHH!
Okay, here's the thing. Nothing ever beats one's first time. If you live in some kind of alternate universe where the GameCube came out before the N64 came out before the SNES, etc, then I could maybe understand your opinions. Otherwise, you cannot possibly tell me that anything on the cube beat running around outside peach's castle in Mario 64, or stepping onto Hyrule field for the first time in OOT, or riding Epona for the first time, or flying with the wing cap for the first time......
(I mostly also feel the same way about the old school mario games, though your opinion about Mario 3 is more widely held.)
....
Anyway, back on topic, in a new interview with ign, Reggie spoke thusly: "We will continue to pull the curtain back over the next few months". I expect we'll know a heck of a lot more about REV before year's end.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 23, 2005, 07:01:16 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 23, 2005, 07:11:13 PM
No, actually, I played them in order. Mario 64 was nothing compared to Mario 3, Super Mario World was comparable but still worse. Running around in Mario 64 was fun for an hour but as soon as I started fighting enemies I really started missing the precision of 2D Mario. The Wing Cap was cool but I liked the cape better. After the introductory area (which was pretty cool), stepping onto Hyrule field in OoT did nothing for me, I always ran to castle town to avoid getting locked out and avoided the normal enemies because I got no enjoyment out of fighting them... until Epona, crossing Hyrule was a chore. Epona was cool but didn't make up for the rest of the game. Basically, how can I say this gently? After LttP and the ridiculous hype, OoT was a massive disappointment... I had to force myself to finish that game. The feeling just wasn't there. MM was much better but the feeling didn't come back till Wind Waker, which to me felt like what OoT should have been. I'm not sure what to think of Twilight Princess.
So basically the only appeal N64 games held for me was the initial shock of 3D, and after that I started remembering their NES and SNES counterparts and they just didn't hold up.
Anyway, back on topic. More info is probably next month.
Post by: Artimus on September 23, 2005, 07:32:17 PM
Post by: zakkiel on September 23, 2005, 07:33:48 PM
QuoteIt could be a huge problem for Nintendo. On the other hand, the question could assume that the Rev will be the second console of choice (almost certainly true, based just on their current differentiation) at which point it becomes a huge problem for Microsoft and Sony, engaged in a massively expensive head-on confrontation. I actually went searching for non-Nintendo boards to find the reaction to the new controller, and it's overwhelmingly positive thus far. I lost count of the number of people who said they will now get a Rev, simply because it offers something fresh.
Nintendo's biggest problem can be summed up with "Xbox 360 or PS3?" This strategy won't fix that.
If Nintendo tries to go up in a conventional battle against Microsoft and Sony, they will lose. They have no leverage, plain and simple. Playing it safe and avoiding mistakes will not bring back third parties or gain them mind share. By making their product radically different, they achieve credibility as innovators, visibility in the gaming community (the Revolution really was a nonentity before TGS), and have a chance to grab a whole neglected market. This is, in fact, the only strategy that could fix the problem. It's also the one that actually reflects Nintendo's philosophy of making gaming come first, which is the reason I'm a Nintendo fan.
Edit: Paladin, you are quite possibly the only gamer in existance who would rate MM over OoT. Personally, I had to force myself to finish MM, and I actually failed to force myself to finish WW, so much did I hate the story, structure and copious amounts of filler. Seriously, you can't complain about walking across Hyrule Field and two sentences later embrace WW. (And yes, the visuals failed to capture my imagination once in the way OoT did. I never changed my mind on I am a tremendous clownboat., and I probably never will. The extreme exaggeration of Link's expressions to the point I felt I was playing someone with a four-year-old's mental age didn't help).
Post by: wandering on September 23, 2005, 07:44:39 PM
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as soon as I started fighting enemies I really started missing the precision of 2D Mario.
mario 64 isn't about fighting! It's about mirror rooms and hidden paths behind waterfalls of lava and riding magic carpets over rainbow paths high in the clouds and jumping through paintings and sunken ships and racing penguins and riding monsters and.......
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I think OOT is overrated. It's a fun game but I don't think it's a very good Zelda game, or anything special.
You know, I'm not sure there's a whole lot more I can say on this issue, without going into all kinds of detail (which I'll do if you want). So I'll just say that while I try to respect all opinions, some opinions - like "Roger Moore was a better Bond than Sean Connery" "Hamlet isn't such a great play" or "Elvis was better than The Beatles" - are just wrong. This is one of those opinions.
Post by: The Omen on September 23, 2005, 08:04:58 PM
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No, actually, I played them in order. Mario 64 was nothing compared to Mario 3, Super Mario World was comparable but still worse. Running around in Mario 64 was fun for an hour but as soon as I started fighting enemies I really started missing the precision of 2D Mario. The Wing Cap was cool but I liked the cape better. After the introductory area (which was pretty cool), stepping onto Hyrule field in OoT did nothing for me, I always ran to castle town to avoid getting locked out and avoided the normal enemies because I got no enjoyment out of fighting them... until Epona, crossing Hyrule was a chore. Epona was cool but didn't make up for the rest of the game. Basically, how can I say this gently? After LttP and the ridiculous hype, OoT was a massive disappointment... I had to force myself to finish that game. The feeling just wasn't there. MM was much better but the feeling didn't come back till Wind Waker, which to me felt like what OoT should have been. I'm not sure what to think of Twilight Princess.
Although I don't agree with anything you say, at all, in that paragraph, it's an opinion, so no sense in arguing. However, I find it funny you don't mention the incredible number of outstanding third party games, a lot of exclusives. The RPG releases alone add up to more than GCs entire catalogue! (hyperbole)
We're discussing the Snes being a better system...don't you think licensed games count?
Post by: Artimus on September 23, 2005, 08:10:44 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 23, 2005, 08:30:24 PM
Did you miss what I posted before that?
Post by: IceCold on September 23, 2005, 08:33:40 PM
QuoteI think that Paladin prefers fewer but quality games for the console (GCN), rather than tonnes of fluff surrounding a few gems (SNES).
The RPG releases alone add up to more than GCs entire catalogue! (hyperbole)
Post by: Ian Sane on September 23, 2005, 09:35:11 PM
The Cube's biggest problem was that Nintendo screwed up a lot of little things during a time where people were counting them out because of the N64 and they had to prove that things were going to significantly improve. Little things like having one less button on the controller than the competition and having a ridiculous puny memory card and making it incredibly difficult to get a demo disc makes you look incompetent. Nintendo had to prove they were on the ball and they just gave people so many excuses to not buy a Cube. The marketing was terrible, they used purple as the main colour, they didn't include DVD support. Little things but you pile up all the little goofs and suddenly the Cube looks like a lemon.
Nintendo's timing was the sh!ts too. Here's my general timeline on what I feel really hurt the Cube during the first year and a half. They didn't do so many stupid things later on. It was just too late to do anything.
1. The Zelda switcheroo. Nintendo can say that the Spaceworld 2000 demos didn't indicate real games in development but that didn't change the fact that everyone felt tricked. They say they're making a Zelda game and then they show footage of the coolest looking Zelda game ever and expect us to not freak out when they show a cartoon later on? Or course Nintendo has since made the Zelda they "promised" five years ago but it will end up being one of the last Cube games released, years too late to make any difference. Had Nintendo released the Zeldas in the opposite order things could have been way different. They had their killer app at Spaceworld 2000 and they blew it.
2. Luigi's Mansion. Not a bad game but a really short one with no replay value. Microsoft's got Halo and Nintendo's flagship title can be completed in a weekend. People still played Halo until the sequel came out. That's what Nintendo needed at launch. They could have even released the same launch lineup but given the flagship focus to something else like Rogue Leader. Rogue Leader, like the Zelda demo, was a killer app before it was released yet it received very little attention in the initial ads. It got like 1 second of footage in a overall console commercial while Luigi's Mansion got it's own ad.
3. The drought. I'm not sure what Nintendo could have done to avoid this but this is what killed the Cube more than anything. A lackluster flagship title followed by six months of nothing. When people talk about Nintendo getting third party dev kits out for the Rev THIS is what they're talking about. Had they been quicker getting the third parties going then maybe some games could have been released during this time. The bad part is that the games that were released were HORRIBLE ports made by third parties who didn't have enough time to provide something worthwhile. That gave the impression that the Cube was inferior because the same games were better on the PS2.
4. Super Mario Sunshine. This is a big blob of problems. The big one was no Mario at launch. They needed him there. The second was the really crappy marketing ie: the worst commercial ever made and the name "Sunshine". The third problem was that Nintendo needed the most killer game ever and they basically delivered Super Mario 64 with a very lame waterpack and graphics that looked worse than the launch titles. This is a rare scenario where I feel Nintendo should have made a different game entirely. Usually they nail the game and then screw up on the timing of the release or the marketing but this was a game that had to deliver and didn't. Personally I think it would have been better if Nintendo tried to make the ultimate 3D Mario game instead of trying too hard to be innovative and coming up with a lame gimmick as a result.
5. E3 2003. This is was the last nail in the coffin. No one thought the Cube had a chance after this. After two years of dodging specific questions about online gaming and providing vague promises regarding the concept Nintendo revealed that their delayed "online plans" didn't exist. Instead we got connectivity, a neat idea in theory that Nintendo didn't have any actual ideas for early on. And the big focus of the show was Pac-Man Vs which was such a minor game that it ended up being given away as a promotional item. The no online thing was bad enough but the fact that they dicked us around about their "online plans" really made them look like liars. They promised a feature and never had any intention of providing it, more or less.
6. Wasted devs. This doesn't fit into any time table but it's a wasted opportunity. Nintendo could have really delivered killer games within the first few years of the Cube but didn't and went with Mario spin-off junk instead. Intelligent Systems, Treasure and Camelot have the talent to deliver killer games that are unique and original and totally unlike Nintendo's other games. They could have provided variety but instead they made Mario games that only appealed to existing Nintendo fans when something new could have attracted other gamers as well as Nintendo fans. They handcuffed other developers too. Rare was forced to use Star Fox. Silicon Knights was assigned to a glorified port (Too Human is now an anticipated Xbox 360 game, if that's not a wasted opportunity what is?). Nintendo got Square back but they made them make a connectivity game instead of, you know, a GOOD game. Nintendo even got Sega and Namco to design games for them and what did they do? They had them make Nintendo franchise games. ARRRGH! Nintendo's "everybody" way of making games totally killed variety on the Cube and thus ensured that on one outside Nintendo's hardcore fanbase gave a sh!t. Devs that provided unique talents were wasted on games that played exactly like something EAD could make themselves. It was like lineing up an all-star concert and then having every act play Stones covers.
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 23, 2005, 11:11:12 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I remember when Ian was more positive."
So do I. Things were so much more fun when I thought the N64 was a fluke and that without the stupid cartridge goof-up Nintendo would be able to make up tons of lost ground. It really sucks to watch a company you love screw up some of the most easy things imaginable all while eating away at your patience and enthusiasm until you're all cynical and don't trust the company to do anything right anymore. Being a Nintendo fan for the last five years has been like watching a loved one destroy their life in front of you.
Heh, heh...Amen to that.
You know Ian, you and I see very "eye to eye" with this stuff. Nintendo HAVE screwed up. Your post up there^ with your list of reasons why, has debatable parts for some, I'm sure. But the major point to be made is this. Nintendo have made mistakes. So far as the business side of things go. I'm definately not going to bash the cube's game selection because compared to what I got on the N64 (I never played PSONE) it was freaking heaven.
It is fair to say "Nintendo blew that one" one on several different GCN topics. But I don't think it's fair to say that they haven't brought high quality games to us. We've had plenty.
The difference between myself and Ian Sane is this, I don't let the negatives get me so down. I try and remain unvested (not a word) in some way so that I can just stand back and let my company go. I love Nintendo and want the best for them fiscally, because that means I get to keep playing my precious Mario, Link, Donkey Kong yadda yadda. But I don't want to ever get totally down on them either.
Because what matters is that I am happy with the games I play. Yes I could list about a dozen different things Nintendo should have done better just over the last five years! And I do, quite often. But through all of that I refuse to not be hopeful, not blind, just hopeful. I will point out the mistakes on the way. But hey, if Nintendo want to go with this controller then damn it, I'm going to get behind them untill they screw up so badly I make empty threats about leaving the Nintendo brotherhood.
Do Nintendo need to get on the ball in a dozen different ways to save their image and their company's future? YES.
Will I have a heart attack when I see that the next Mario game involves you brushing your teeth with the remote controller and your hair as well as the game had been retitled "Mario Bathtime!"...because clean is better than dirty? YES.
But will I also appreciate the first Revoltuion game to blow me away? To set new standards? To disprove non-believers? YES.
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 24, 2005, 04:49:24 AM
Reggie: "We will continue to pull the curtain back over the next few months and we expect you'll be there."
(cube.ign.com Nintendo Minute)
Post by: Plugabugz on September 24, 2005, 05:35:31 AM
Nintendo have done dangerously badly in europe because they focussed so much on America and Japan.
Delaying Metroid Prime 6 months after the American/Japanese release (even though the Japanese don't like Metroid all that much) for seemingly no reason was bad enough because there was little else at the time I wanted to buy.
The only first party game we got ahead of everyone else was Mario Kart: Double Dash, and then that was by 2 days.
Nintendo honestly thought that promoting Donkey Konga like THIS, and the £79.99 price drop will honestly attract attention? Advertise the cube now being £80 and show the purple one instead of black? I know very few people who liked that colour coz it sticks out too much.
Having seen that ad, particuarly the DK one several times when it launched, I reckon someone at NoE needed to be shot. More than once.
Someone listened it seemed because when the DS hit (6 months later than everyone else), the ads improved vastly, and they even spent some money sponsoring some Friday evening TV shows on Channel 4 (which air right after Big Brother UK - the lead-in from BB meant, potentially, at least several million see the promo's). See the sponsorship ad, and the the DS launch ad.
Yes Nintendo made mistakes, but given their complacent nature they became bigger ones here. We don't want to wait 6 months for the DS (that said, we waited 9 for the PSP!), 2 years for Animal Crossing (which apparently was changed very little), and an eternity for the biggest first party games, when a quick hop over the pond (along with a freeloader) causes little problems.
Nintendo made Pennant Chase and Mario Baseball for the Americans, and while one has vanished, anyone who has a PS2 can simply play Pro Evolution Soccer 4/5 on the PS2 or Xbox. Neither PC/MB fit the European market, and Konami isn't interested in making PES for the Cube (or any other title for that matter), so why hasn't Nintendo made their own equivalent?
The problem I'm seeing is, Europe and the USA clearly are different markets and need to be treated differently but with the same urgency involved. Just because we aint selling as well, because no one around here fancies a purple GameCube next to a silver TV, or wants to play Mario Sunshine, it's no reason to abandon us in the way that it is has happened.
Apple, for example, are stamping on Creative with the iPod because it's aesthetically better (technically no, but never mind) and their marketing has a clear label. When you see the ads, you think Apple with them. People are choosing them over Creative products because of how they look and their appeal they now garnered, vs Donkey Konga whose ads nobody understand because there's dancing monkeys and an announcer who's talking too fast to catch anything.
Yes Nintendo have made mistakes, but I'm hoping next generation they'll realise that as long as Europe has a different attitude to things to how THEY like it then we're in for better things to come - There's been hints, for example, that Twilight Princess will launch worldwide simultaneously. Metroid Prime 2 already did that. It's a start.
Nintendo quirk doesn't work here.
Post by: wandering on September 24, 2005, 09:57:12 AM
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Nintendo honestly thought that promoting Donkey Konga like THIS
That. Was. Awesome.
Post by: The Omen on September 24, 2005, 01:42:45 PM
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The RPG releases alone add up to more than GCs entire catalogue! (hyperbole)
I think that Paladin prefers fewer but quality games for the console (GCN), rather than tonnes of fluff surrounding a few gems (SNES).
Excuse me? There are far more quality games for the Snes than the GC, that's for damn sure. Sometimes I get the feeling some of you have never played the older systems, and have only heard they were good or bad. There were literally dozens of 'gems' for the Snes. Take a gander yourself:
SNES GAMES LIST
/ off topic
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 24, 2005, 02:15:02 PM
Okay now you just sound like an elitist jerk. I did play the SNES and I did like the games but apart from Super Metroid there was nothing I liked as much as Mario 3 or (later) WW, Metroid Prime 1/2, Tales of Symphonia and RE4. Your list of games doesn't change my opinion because as far as I'm concerned the only shining gem on the SNES is Super Metroid. The rest may be gems but in my opinion they're not comparably shiny to the games I just listed. And the N64 had nothing worth comparing.
That's the last time I'm gonna try to explain my opinion.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on September 24, 2005, 02:28:35 PM
Post by: The Omen on September 24, 2005, 03:21:02 PM
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Okay now you just sound like an elitist jerk.
For someone who claims the only great game from the Snes days is Super Metroid, I'll take the statement to mean the exact opposite of how you intended.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 25, 2005, 12:19:54 AM
HOW ABOUT SOME OCTOBERTON, EH?
Post by: nickmitch on September 25, 2005, 07:36:26 AM
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 25, 2005, 09:09:30 AM
Are there any shows planned next month or are they going to issue a press release?
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 25, 2005, 11:19:33 AM
Post by: BlkPaladin on September 25, 2005, 07:53:46 PM
