Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: BranDonk Kong on September 16, 2005, 08:23:58 PM
Title: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 16, 2005, 08:23:58 PM
...my guess is that it calibrates the sensors/controller. Say you started playing a game on the left side of the room you're in, the sensors make that location the "center" of the game, or where you're positioned basically. Now, you pause the game, go get a drink, come back and sit on the right side. Press the "HOME" button, and there you go, the sensors now know where you're sitting, and you're back to playing the game without any awkwardness caused due to repositioning yourself. Just my guess, but I bet I'm pretty close, and if I'm wrong, I bet there will be another way to do this via a PAUSE menu or something.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on September 16, 2005, 08:42:34 PM
eff yeah man; you hit the nail on the head
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Renny on September 17, 2005, 06:59:44 AM
None of the journalists mentioned this, and they could only guess that the Home button is for navigating to the system's root interface. One even mentioned that he went from flailing about to sitting down and using much smaller and simpler movements. He made no mention of calibration. It might have been a controlled setup though. But there must be some kind of calibraiton. Could be automated possibly, from unpausing or something. I hope I don't have to manually recalibrate each time I throw it across the room. ;¬]
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Don'tHate742 on September 19, 2005, 08:00:37 AM
That's a good guess brandogg, but I think the Home button will be just that. A way to go to the main menu or "home".
Nintendo, i think, took a chapter out of Microsoft's book when it comes to online. A home button would definitely be a very intuitive way to go to the online interface or even to the system start-up menu for the console.
I think when you simply tap the home button, it pauses everything that is going on on-screen and pulls up an online menu, where you can continue a conversation or read an online guide. As soon as you tap the home button again, you go right back to your game, but this time, to the pause menu (so you don't accidently die or something).
If you HOLD down the home button, it takes you to the system start-up menu.
To recalibrate your controller, you could hold a series of buttons (or if Nintendo decides to include one, a reset button) for an extended period of time.
PS.
"I bet there will be another way to do this via a PAUSE menu or something" -- Brandogg
The problem with this is that they would have to program everygame to implement a calibrate option instead of programming the system. That would lead to extra work for the developer that wasn't needed. However, you may be on to something if the pause menu included a sensitivity option.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 19, 2005, 08:44:51 AM
Why do you need a reset button? I'm imagining this thing as a 3D mouse... mice don't need reset buttons when you pick them up and put them somewhere else. It's the movement that seems to matter, not the position.
So the guy jumping over the couch in the trailer... as he jumps, his character moves forward or jumps or whatever, and then when he's sitting the character is standing still.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: KDR_11k on September 19, 2005, 10:44:26 AM
Paladin: Yes but if you have the device powered on and move to another seat the system registers a long movement and a different position. You'd need to tell it that this movement wasn't meant to influence the game.
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Mr. Segali on September 19, 2005, 10:52:10 AM
Maybe thats what the B trigger is for... the movements won't register unless it is held down or something.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: trip1eX on September 19, 2005, 10:59:57 AM
Pause the game. Move to a different chair. Unpause. This could easily do the calibration if calibration indeed needs to be done.
Anyway this technology has been around for awhile so I'm sure this won't be a problem. PLus Nintendo has always stressed ease of use in many of their products such as how easy their wi-fi will be to use. I don't think this will be any different. Most likely it will be nearly totally transparent to the user.
Here's a link to a review of a 3d mouse from 2 years ago. Good reviews and again that was 2 year old technology and the article said this technology has been around for decades.
I'm not sure the REvolution controller uses this exact technology for pointing because it includes sensors to put above or below your tv. But those sensors maybe are just to tell how close/far you are away from the tV.
Here's the company's website. This may be the company Nintendo licensed their technology from 4 years ago or so.
http://www.gyration.com
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: trip1eX on September 19, 2005, 11:30:14 AM
Thomson Unveils New Mini Gyroscope for Motion-Sensing Applications
Smaller, fully self-contained sensor sets new benchmark for computer peripherals, TV remote controls and game controllers.
Saratoga, California - June 7th, 2005- Thomson (Euronext Paris: 18453; NYSE: TMS) today introduced a new miniature solid-state gyroscope that is designed specifically to enable motion-sensing capabilities in user-interface applications. The gyro was designed and developed in the Gyration sensors lab of Thomson’s Technology Division. It is fully self-contained for easy integration and direct mounting to printed circuit boards of input devices. The new gyroscope (MG1101) strengthens the Gyration offering as a key technology for advanced devices such as computer pointers, TV remote controllers, game controllers, robotics, factory automation, antenna stabilization and auto navigation.
MG1101 is based on a revolutionary structural design that allows for a compact package and low manufacturing cost without sacrificing performance and precision.
“This new gyroscope is the only sensor on the market with the performance characteristics required for smooth and accurate ‘pointing’ combined with the low power and low cost to make it viable in consumer devices,” says Greg Smith, Vice President for Marketing and Sales of the Gyration business. “This sensor, combined with our broad Motion by Gyration™ pointer method patents, is a key element in our strategy to make ‘motion sensing’ ubiquitous in user-interface markets as entertainment, broadband and PC applications are converging. We are already seeing a dramatic growth in our OEM sales and licensing business as we partner with strong brands in both PC and consumer markets.”
For more information see www.gyration.com.
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: vudu on September 19, 2005, 01:05:37 PM
Quote Originally posted by: vudu Thu September 15, 2005 10:54 PM
Quote Nintendo was unwilling to comment on what the "Home" button does, but it's likely a place to manage classic games you've downloaded, online games, and hopefully much more.
Perhaps I'm way off, but I assume the Home button is used to recalibrate the controller so the sensor knows where the neutral position is. Otherwise if you start playing a game sitting in one position and then you want to move to another, it won't be able to tell where you want to move.
I said this in the IWATATON thread less than 2 hours after Iwataton started. Stop stealing my ideas. Get our of my head!
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: kennyb27 on September 19, 2005, 02:07:39 PM
Let's just say the home button does indeed bring you to a home menu that allows you to see your downloaded games, system info, etc. How funny would it be that Microsoft's "innovation" is indeed just an afterthought on Nintendo's new controller.
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: zakkiel on September 19, 2005, 02:35:28 PM
Quote Originally posted by: PaLaDiN Why do you need a reset button? I'm imagining this thing as a 3D mouse... mice don't need reset buttons when you pick them up and put them somewhere else. It's the movement that seems to matter, not the position.
So the guy jumping over the couch in the trailer... as he jumps, his character moves forward or jumps or whatever, and then when he's sitting the character is standing still.
You reset your mouse precisely by picking it up and moving it to where you want it. The controller has no similar built-in mechanism for ignoring some movements but not others.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 19, 2005, 04:50:20 PM
"You'd need to tell it that this movement wasn't meant to influence the game." "The controller has no similar built-in mechanism for ignoring some movements but not others."
Obviously, the pause button. I was answering the original post... there is no awkwardness caused by repositioning yourself if the game was paused since no movement is captured before and after the pause. Hence, no "calibration" button needed.
In other words, pausing the game lets you pick up and move the controller.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Don'tHate742 on September 19, 2005, 05:02:40 PM
That is a good solution.
If that's the case (which it most likely is), then I see the "home" button having the ability to take us to the online-menu or the start-up menu (tap or hold).
I really like the idea of being able to tap the "home" button to bring up a digital guide for the game you're playing. I don't use guides unless I really really have to. This way it can become more streamline, and Nintendo could even charge a minimal fee.
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: MarioAllStar on September 19, 2005, 05:15:27 PM
I would actually hope they would charge a fee for a guide like that. Don't get me wrong, it is a very good idea, but sometimes I have trouble just overcoming the temptation of going to GameFAQs to find a solution. I can imagine if it were only a few button presses away I would be doing it more often, which is not what I want. For those that do want it, though, I can see the convenience.
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: zakkiel on September 19, 2005, 05:48:33 PM
Quote Originally posted by: PaLaDiN "You'd need to tell it that this movement wasn't meant to influence the game." "The controller has no similar built-in mechanism for ignoring some movements but not others."
Obviously, the pause button. I was answering the original post... there is no awkwardness caused by repositioning yourself if the game was paused since no movement is captured before and after the pause. Hence, no "calibration" button needed.
In other words, pausing the game lets you pick up and move the controller.
This would be a waste of a point-and-click interface for menus.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 19, 2005, 06:46:31 PM
"This would be a waste of a point-and-click interface for menus."
What do you mean? There's also a select button.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Don'tHate742 on September 19, 2005, 06:52:15 PM
He means that if you had to pause the game to move the controller, then it would make sense that the controllers motion-capturing functions would be turned off. If they were turned on, how would pausing the game make it any different from moving the controller to another position while in the game?
So basically, you would need a recalibrate button if Nintendo opted for a point and click interface with menus.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: trip1eX on September 19, 2005, 07:07:40 PM
Nintendo's technology, afaik, differs from pc gryo mice as it will work more like a laser pointer for moving the cursor ie you'll have to aim it.
The Revolution would have to calculate how far you are away from the 3 or so sensors. Then it would combine this with how your controller is tilted to determine where you are pointing on the screen. And somehow it has to differentitate whether you are above or below the sensors.
With this data, your position in 3d space from the tv is calculated by measurement of signal response times. Combine that with how your controller is tilted will tell the Revolution where you are aiming whether it be on screen or off screen.
With this I don't think alot of calibration would be needed. It would automatically determine where you are pointing no matter where you are (within certain limits.)
Well then again some calibration might be needed. TVs are different sizes and they have different size frames around the actual screen. But this would be a one time calibration that I guess would be stored internally in the Revolution.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 19, 2005, 07:08:05 PM
The way I see it, pressing Start brings up the Pause screen. Not a menu, controller is turned off and can be picked up and moved around before resuming game.
Pressing Select (the GC didn't have a Select button) brings up the game menu. Controller is on and you can select stuff from the menu by pointing and clicking.
Is there something I'm missing?
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: trip1eX on September 19, 2005, 07:08:24 PM
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Dasmos on September 19, 2005, 08:46:55 PM
^^ I am liking the blank entry above ^^
Don't you see the home button, is for when you go out and get intoxicated FROM CANDY!!!!!. Once you've had enough you just get out the controller and press the home button and you are home without any fuss......
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: KDR_11k on September 19, 2005, 09:06:17 PM
Paladin: That won't help when you want the controller's neutral position to be in one specific place. E.g. you forgot to pause before moving, you'd have to move back, find the center again, pause, move to the new position, unpause. Or you pause, put the controller down, do something, come back and unpause without the controller being in the place it was before, suddently your neutral position has moved and you'd have to perform a voodoo dance to correct it.
And I don't see a reason why a games machine would need an "exit to BIOS" button, that could be solved with menus.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 19, 2005, 10:22:01 PM
No, actually, only the first situation would require correction because while you were moving the cursor would be moving as well. And you'd probably notice when that happened. Say a lateral movement = strafing, then the character would strafe with you until you stopped moving.
In the second situation, exactly nothing would happen because there would be no movement before or after the pause. Like I said, picking up and moving the mouse... the distance between matters not one bit.
What if you just decided to move for some reason while forgetting to pause without looking at the screen? Now you're just inventing situations. My brother could decide to come into the room and hammer on the buttons with a traditional controller.
I'm talking about lateral and vertical movement here, controller pointing perpendicular to the TV screen. Imagine the plane parallel to the TV screen as a mousing surface and pausing as picking up the mouse. Obviously tilting wouldn't work that way exactly... the center for all other types of movement would always be holding it normally, perpendicular to the screen.
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: zakkiel on September 20, 2005, 07:42:16 AM
Quote Originally posted by: PaLaDiN The way I see it, pressing Start brings up the Pause screen. Not a menu, controller is turned off and can be picked up and moved around before resuming game.
Pressing Select (the GC didn't have a Select button) brings up the game menu. Controller is on and you can select stuff from the menu by pointing and clicking.
Is there something I'm missing?
Most games I've played have menus that come up when paused. There's no point in having a separate pause and menu screen. If the start button turned off the controller, you wouldn't be able to navigate the menus. And it's a lot more ackward to pause, move controller, unpause, then just point the controller at center screen and hit "home." Remember, your system freezes the present orientation of the controller while you move it. That means that if in the game you have it pointing towards the top left at a 45 degree angle, when you pause it you have to point the physical controller at the same angle. Or remember to set the in-game control to neutral before pasuing. Sounds like unnecessary annoyance to me.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: KDR_11k on September 20, 2005, 08:37:41 AM
Let's say you decide to change into a more comfortable position. That already results in a different controller position.
Anything more complicated than hitting "Home" when you've moved will confuse the casuals. Context-sensitive behaviour (game/paused) leads to confusion.
Nasty situation for your method: You play Smash Bros with someone else. You start to make a smashing movement but he hits Pause for a moment and unpauses again. Your center position is messed up.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 20, 2005, 09:28:04 AM
KDR, but won't it register the movement until you press "Home"? I don't see how that avoids anything.
"Let's say you decide to change into a more comfortable position. That already results in a different controller position."
If you were pausing, that wouldn't matter, because your movements wouldn't be registered. If you weren't pausing, then pressing "Home" wouldn't help you either because movement would already have been registered before you pressed it. So if you move to the right and then press "Home" your character would already have moved to the right before you pressed it.
I'm not sure if we're looking at this differently. The way I envision it, lateral position doesn't matter, lateral movement does. Pausing means that none of your lateral movements affect the game itself. There is no neutral lateral position in the same way as there is no neutral mouse position. The game doesn't register how far you are from a certain position, it registers whether you're moving the controller left, right, up, down, forwards or backwards and how fast you're doing it. There is only a neutral tilt position (pointing straight towards the TV or straight up or straight left or what have you, depending on the game) in the same way as there is a neutral analog position. Of course you could tilt the controller while pausing and when you unpaused the game would register the new tilt, but that's the same as pausing and holding left on the analog stick before unpausing.
zakkiel, fine, how about if the game is paused, all registered movement only goes towards moving the cursor on the menu screen. No need to press select. The menu screen would have boundaries like a normal desktop screen where if you moved further right for example the cursor wouldn't move past the edge of the screen. Once you unpause, you can continue making lateral movements that affect the game.
So to take KDR's example, your friend pauses for a moment so your smashing movement is cut off before you execute it. Instead of moving your controller back to the "center position"(?) and pressing Home, all you have to do is make another smashing movement once he unpauses (assuming smashing takes lateral movement... if it just takes tilting then it's even easier, just press the button again because your controller's already tilted).
It sounds complicated but the way I imagine it, it isn't really. This is all a bunch of words because it's hard to describe the controller's movement in 3D space.
I'm having trouble seeing exactly what you visualize the Home button doing though. Do you want a neutral lateral and vertical position so holding the controller to your right means your character moves to the right indefinitely? I can't imagine that being comfortable, you'd have to press Home everytime you forgot exactly where the controller's neutral position was. A tilt neutral position is feasible because "pointing towards the TV" is easy to keep in mind. A vertical or lateral position is not because "one meter above the floor" or "two feet and five inches from the right wall" are not.
Edit: I can't help but feel you're both raising very valid points that I just don't understand. This would be easier if we had some standardized method of describing controller movement and position.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: KDR_11k on September 20, 2005, 09:50:09 AM
No, it sets the current controller position as "center" when you press Home.
The controller has to have a "neutral" position because you cannot move it farther than your arms allow. If it represents e.g. the position of your sword the system has to know where it should assume the character so it knows whether a position is to your left, to your right or in front of you.
Obviously the gyros won't be a good substitute for an analog stick in some situations, telling the player to hold the rod to his right to walk right is no more intuitive than pushing right on a dpad or analog stick. The rod has to remove abstraction, not add it. Like the mouse and the touchscreen the rod is better for absolute controls (moving the controller moves some game element over an equal distance) than relative controls (position of the controller equals velocity vector of the controlled object).
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Artimus on September 20, 2005, 11:24:17 AM
Home for the controller is when it's still. You don't need to recalibrate it after moving because there's nothing to recalibrate. If you have a room three squares wide, it doesn't matter if you're in the first, second or third squares, it just matters how far you move the controller. Moving the controller from square one to square two gives the exact same movement as square two to square three.
Recalibrating makes no sense, because for that there would have to be a home position and you'd never be able to continuously hold the controller in some pin prick point in space. Paladin is right.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 20, 2005, 01:55:18 PM
"Obviously the gyros won't be a good substitute for an analog stick in some situations, telling the player to hold the rod to his right to walk right is no more intuitive than pushing right on a dpad or analog stick. The rod has to remove abstraction, not add it. Like the mouse and the touchscreen the rod is better for absolute controls (moving the controller moves some game element over an equal distance) than relative controls (position of the controller equals velocity vector of the controlled object). "
Ah, I think we're getting to the root of the confusion now. I'm not holding the rod to my right to walk to the right indefinitely, I'm pointing it there instead. Moving controller = absolute control. Turning/Pointing controller = relative control, for most games at least. If the rod is shoved to the right, the character would probably dodge in that direction. If it's pointed there, he'd just walk or run.
Obviously for FPS and sword swinging the controller becomes your hand and things get a little more complex, but in most other games that's how I imagine it happening.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 20, 2005, 02:05:10 PM
Or you can imagine Mario holding and throwing objects in a variety of directions depending on how you swing your arm/controller, somewhat related to the sword-swinging application.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: KDR_11k on September 20, 2005, 11:16:12 PM
Artimus: You'd need to recenter it if your position changes during gameplay. Say, you play that drumming game from the "trailer". For some reason or another (say, GF walks in and wants to sit next to you) you move somewhere eldse while playing the game. The game doesn't notice you moved your body and the drums would be in the same place. To hit them you'd still have to hit the same spot in the room. Might be hard to do if you moved more than one or two metres.
Title: RE:I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Artimus on September 21, 2005, 04:10:40 AM
Quote Originally posted by: KDR_11k Artimus: You'd need to recenter it if your position changes during gameplay. Say, you play that drumming game from the "trailer". For some reason or another (say, GF walks in and wants to sit next to you) you move somewhere eldse while playing the game. The game doesn't notice you moved your body and the drums would be in the same place. To hit them you'd still have to hit the same spot in the room. Might be hard to do if you moved more than one or two metres.
No, you don't. Because the game would always hold your sticks at centre. Just like a mouse in a PC FPS, you're going to be centered. And in any game where you're not it won't matter either.
The controller judges movement, not position. Just like a lightgun, and just like a mouse. If I unplug my mouse and move it, when I plug it back in I don't need to reset it.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: KDR_11k on September 21, 2005, 05:29:10 AM
So you couldn't move the sticks to the sides? Sounds horribly limited.
To make your mouse analogy harder and more accurate (because I clearly said "during gameplay"): You can neither unplug nor lift the mouse, it registers all movement. What do you do?
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: Artimus on September 21, 2005, 08:08:18 AM
Press the pause button. That's why I said unplug. Pressing pause would stop all readings and when you sat back down you'd be fine.
It's pretty safe to assume you aren't going to be changing seats without pausing anyway, at least in any fast paced game.
Title: RE: I think I know what the "HOME" button is...
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 21, 2005, 04:51:53 PM
"So you couldn't move the sticks to the sides? Sounds horribly limited."
Yes you could. Why couldn't you?
What Artimus means by "the mouse is always centered" is that when you stop moving the mouse, the cursor stops moving. Holding the mouse stationary in the upper right part of the mouse pad doesn't mean the cursor keeps moving towards the upper right.
