Post by: ThePerm on July 22, 2005, 03:51:13 PM
This logic is flawed though.
1 The xbox was huge in comparison to the gamecube...yet the gamecube clearly held its own in terms of power.
2 On gamecube the power adapter isnt built in. its external. So it doesnt take up the extra amount of space by being built into the system.
letting the system be smaller.
3 have you ever looked at an xbox mother board and a gamecube motherboard?
http://lib.store.yahoo.com/lib/directron/replacexboxmb04.jpg
http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/gamecube_motherboard_sm.jpg
the xbox motherboard is a mess, and its not at all as streamlined as the gcn one....
chances are rev and 360 are hte same way.
Post by: nickmitch on July 22, 2005, 05:30:20 PM
Post by: mantidor on July 22, 2005, 06:16:03 PM
Post by: Caterkiller on July 22, 2005, 09:01:09 PM
Technology gets much more complicated as time goes on, but at the same time notice how things get alot smaller. Nintendo says they are investing in some NEW technology, what ever it is, it's pretty compact and there is no doubt in my mind that it will be able to stand up against the competition.
Post by: KnowsNothing on July 22, 2005, 09:16:36 PM
Quote
I mean sony shrunk a PS2 down into hand held size this generation didn't they
No, but I get your point.
Post by: Dirk Temporo on July 22, 2005, 09:39:43 PM
Post by: BigJim on July 23, 2005, 03:17:24 AM
Technology advances, but we're talking mere months separating each system's launch. Not 5-14 years. There's no breakthrough that's going to happen in such time as to allow the seriously power-hungry components of PS3 or 360 to become as small, cheap, quiet, and cool as Nintendo claims Revolution will be.
That being said, performance CAN come in small packages. One needs only to look at a modern laptop to see that. The problem is that Nintendo isn't just going with small. They're going with small, silent, cheap, and cool.
The size shouldn't be a concern. It's the cheap, silent, and cool parts that should. Those things equate into performance sacrifices. The graphics, for example, of 360 and PS3 are as advanced as current top of the line PC cards, and they're definitely not cheap, silent, or cool cards.
So Matt is right for the wrong reason.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 23, 2005, 05:06:01 AM
Has Nintendo delivered any data outside of case measurements? For all we know the Rev is as loud as a GeForce 6800 in 3d mode and eats 2.5 gigawatts. IOW we cannot conclude from the power/heat/noise specs what kind of power the system will have because we don't have those specs. A 90nm or 65nm (Sony wants to make the Cell 65nm so maybe IBM will have 65nm fabs by the time the Rev goes into production) PPC-derivative would not eat that much power. AFAIK AMD kept the power consumption the same from one 130nm core to two 90nm cores.
The Cube isn't very silent either so I don't think heat will be the constraint. Price is more of a problem.
Post by: KnowsNothing on July 23, 2005, 05:41:40 AM
ROAR
Post by: BigJim on July 23, 2005, 06:42:20 AM
If they can get the 65nm process off and running with good yields, that's well and good. But even that doesn't guarantee the heat problem is solved either. I'm equally concerned about the GPUs. No single point proves Rev is underpowered, but looking at their goals collectively, I would put my money on it being the weakest of the bunch.
Post by: BigJim on July 23, 2005, 07:16:24 AM
- Used to update online service to fix bugs, add features (like Genesis emulation), or circumvent piracy hacks.
- Retain log of purchased or downloaded content (virtual console games, game demos, advertisements)
- Trade/share game saves offline or online. (if you use the external flash card)
- Retain personal or historical data (time of last boot up, late time game was played, buddy lists, your wireless network SSID, etc)
- Cache storage of online data (competitor's scores, ranks, maps)
- Memorize your voice for audio commands
While not having to do with flash memory, it'd be kinda cool if Nintendo had an online game save option for online enabled players... i.e. give everybody free 512MB of online storage. No matter where you go, your game saves go with you (via login). Just an idea.
Post by: UniversalJuan on July 23, 2005, 09:28:52 AM
You've got it! It resembles an SD Memory Card! A giant freaking SD Memory Card. Why is this? Hmm....
Post by: KDR_11k on July 23, 2005, 10:38:56 AM
Post by: ruby_onix on July 23, 2005, 11:16:53 AM
Quote
For all we know the Rev is as loud as a GeForce 6800 in 3d mode and eats 2.5 gigawatts.
One of the things Nintendo has boasted about the Rev is it's "low power consumption" (I can't remember where they said it, but I remember they did).
Post by: nickmitch on July 23, 2005, 11:31:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Their lead designer had a nightmare of giant SD cards trying to crush him.
Then why would he/she make one in real life?!? After my last nightmare I didn't make a giant hello. . .uhhh. . .hell's angel.
Post by: stevey on July 23, 2005, 04:16:57 PM
Did you have the dream of a ten foot tall hello kittie biting off people head.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 23, 2005, 09:23:46 PM
Either way, I wonder if anyone will ever make an AMD-based console...
Post by: stevey on July 24, 2005, 03:29:25 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on July 24, 2005, 05:03:23 PM
Post by: pudu on July 24, 2005, 09:54:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
Another advantage of flash memory is that it's small. Good for Rev-sized stuff.
Wow somehow I never thought of that. The space the Rev can save from excluding a HD for tiny, built in flash memory is pretty big. Considering flash memory getting bigger and cheaper all the time this may turn out as plus in the long run. People will be able to cheaply upgrade it and (hopefully) transfer data to their PCs.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 25, 2005, 02:19:16 AM
Post by: Fro on July 25, 2005, 03:16:04 AM
Post by: ThePerm on July 25, 2005, 11:26:57 AM
Post by: vudu on July 25, 2005, 12:37:28 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 25, 2005, 12:46:55 PM
Post by: Strell on July 25, 2005, 05:39:57 PM
Size doesn't equal power ...
BUT...
Size means more room for components, which means more cooling.
It's always possible that the Rev will have a very clean interior and streamlined board(s), but even given that, the fact that the 360/PS3 are larger might mean that the machines simply require more cooling for more power.
If that's the case, then by bending the rules, yes, size can equal power.
Post by: vudu on July 26, 2005, 08:59:05 AM
QuoteBut aren't the PS3 and Xbox 360 much larger because they're built with numerous non-gaming features in mind? Since Nintendo is leaving all non-necessary features out, it makes sense for it to be smaller.
It's always possible that the Rev will have a very clean interior and streamlined board(s), but even given that, the fact that the 360/PS3 are larger might mean that the machines simply require more cooling for more power.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2005, 10:50:48 AM
Post by: hudsonhawk on July 26, 2005, 12:56:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
They're mostly larger because they've made them larger. Especially the nongames stuff doesn't increase size, look at a MacMini, that thing can do anything but games and it's more or less the same size as the Rev.
Um, ok look - size != power, but there's a pretty direct correlation between them. Why else are there no handhelds as powerful as laptops? Why are ATX PCs always less powerful than full sized PCs? Two words: heat dispersion.
Now, you clearly want to cling to optimism about the Rev being competitive graphically with the PS3 and the 360, and that's cool - but you're barking up the wrong tree. The best hope you have for this isn't in terms of overall processing power - on paper, the Rev will get smoked, no matter what - but rather, in terms of actual harnessable power.
A lot of developers seem to be indicating that these simple multi-core processors in the PS3 and the 360 are difficult to work with and that certain obstacles will prevent them from ever being harnessed to their fully-advertised potential.
This could mean that Rev titles will look every bit as good, simply because 1) it's an architecture that conventional wisdom actually applies to and 2) they won't have to waste dev time on solving difficult low-level programming tasks, such as branch prediction.
Look, I'm as hopelessly optimistic as I can be about this, but you have to be more pragmatic in your optimism.
Post by: Strell on July 26, 2005, 03:13:54 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on July 26, 2005, 05:28:51 PM
Anyway, It's possible to put together a cube PC that is as powerful as a full size tower. I've done it myself. Checkout
Shuttle XPC Cubes
And if you made the power supply external, removed the hard drive, and made the DVD drive a slimline, you could make it half the size with little effort. I'm sure Nintendo can do even better.
Post by: Galford on July 26, 2005, 06:58:17 PM
Notice how the PS3 isn't and look at the size of it.
Unless Nintendo knows someone who who can genuinely break Moore's Law
and somehow magicly deal with the heat problems that come from doing that
the Revo will not be more powerful then the PS3 or XBox360.
Of course Nintendo might launch last and solve both of those probs a one swipe.
Post by: ThePerm on July 26, 2005, 07:10:35 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2005, 07:17:12 PM
1. Handhelds run off batteries. Desktop hardware would drain that in less than two hours.
2. You mean Mini-ATX, ATX is what all desktop computers use.
Galford: The X360 uses a heatpipe, liquid cooling usually makes people think "watercooling". The reason why watercooling is so effective is because it uses huge heatsinks, transporting the heat does not reduce the required surface for heat dissipation, it just allows you to place those surfaces separae from the heat sources.
The GC is smaller than the XB or PS2. Increasing the box size doesn't increase heatflow, a smaller box allows you to get the hot air out of the case faster. After all, the purpose of the cooling system is to get the heat out of the case.
Do you even know what Moore's Law says? It has ZERO to do with power consumption (well, okay, each gate eats a bit of power but Moore's Law does not account for more efficient gates so going strictly transistor count * transistor power consumption is stupid because the power consumption is not constant).
Post by: cubist on July 26, 2005, 07:41:15 PM
I agree that size does not equal power. The point about the new design of the PS2 (and maybe even the PSP) illustrate this. However, there's only one area where size does indeed matter in our society...hehehe...uhmmm basketball.
Post by: Galford on July 26, 2005, 08:55:01 PM
Basicly what I'm trying to say is, with current cooling technology and current fabing technology, there is no way in hell the Revo can have the same horsepower as XBox360/PS3 with it's current form factor.
Granted part of the size/heat issues that PS3/Xenon will have is due to they both are designed to house an internal haddrive.
The only way Nintendo could create a more powerful system with what's been shown is wait an enitre year and fab on a more advanced process then Sony/MS are using.
Nintendo did this with the GC and look what happened...
Post by: KDR_11k on July 27, 2005, 12:27:20 AM
Galford: I believe with a very efficient design you could archieve the same or better cooling than the PS3 and X360 have. My GPU is definitely cooled in a way that would fit into a Rev and the GeForce 6800 wasn't exactly low-end hardware (I think it eats more power than the Athlon 64 that sits on the same mobo). Small size can hurt the cooling but I don't think the Rev is small enough for that to happen yet. The Rev won't be more powerful, at least not than the PS3 but it'll probably beat the X360 and deliver a real-world performance very close to the PS3 by cutting some of those 90% cost increase -> 10% performance increase components. Even if the Rev is the weakest system, I don't think it'll be by much and the end user won't notice.
Post by: Galford on July 27, 2005, 05:55:25 PM
Is it one with a dual slotted cooler or a single slotter cooler?
Well I guess the future will tell if I have to foot ot not when it comes to Rev's
specs.
Post by: Nephilim on July 28, 2005, 05:52:45 AM
Im sure the harf a gig would only cost them 5dollars
only real reason the next gen arnt released is because there still making money off em (look at psp memory cards)
and yes size doesnt equal power, Much like fanboys claiming ps3 is better because it has more fans...just cause it looks bigger on paper, doesnt mean it is
Post by: stevey on July 28, 2005, 08:34:15 AM
Post by: ThePerm on August 01, 2005, 10:06:07 PM
and good point the cube kicks ps2's ass for damn sure..and its much smaller and lighter.
Post by: KDR_11k on August 06, 2005, 06:59:02 AM
Post by: zakkiel on August 06, 2005, 04:41:04 PM
"The GC is smaller than the XB or PS2. Increasing the box size doesn't increase heatflow, a smaller box allows you to get the hot air out of the case faster. After all, the purpose of the cooling system is to get the heat out of the case." The purpose of cooling is to get heat away from the electronics. You can do this more easily with more airflow, for which you need a bigger case.
Personally, I think the cooler and less power-demanding thing is a buzzword campaign, or corporate crap in other words. Cooler than what? Less power-intensive than what? And who the hell will notice or care anyway, provided the system doesn't fry like an egg?
In short, I wouldn't read too much into those adjectives.
I don't understand why Nintendo has a fetish for miniaturizing and portability in its home consoles. Perhaps it sells in Japan, what with the smaller average living space, but I doubt it. Stats are what sell. Nintendo may be right, and we just won't be able to visually tell the difference between the next-gen systems, but those numbers still count in the mind of the consumer. Of course, price does as well.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on August 06, 2005, 05:58:17 PM
Post by: Galford on August 06, 2005, 07:15:28 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on August 06, 2005, 09:29:36 PM
And in order to keep the temperature inside the case stable the heat still has to leave the case at the same rate (or preferrably a higher one) as the electronics produce it at. The only factor here is size of the cooling vents and heatsinks (if we ignore heat emission through the case material which is neglectable). Bigger case will only mean more room through which the air has to go to reach the exit vent unless you mean increasing vent size along with case size. Look at the GC, vent->heatsink->heatsink->fan->vent. No space in between because that's not necessary.
Galford: The "dustbuster" is the FX 5700, the 6800 is faster and emits less heat.
Post by: Kazeneko on August 07, 2005, 07:10:31 PM
Click here for a quick size comparison of Xbox360 and Revolution
The larger box represents Xbox 360 (yeah, it's simple, but it's the exact measurements MS has released), the blue box inside is the size of a standard computer hard drive, and the yellow box is the average size for a power supply, though the size/shape will most deffinately be different.). As you can see, after those two are added, there's really not much more space compared to the other box, which happens to be the size of 3 DVD cases (and Revolution is actually larger than that). Also need to take into consideration, that the 360 has the concave sides, which take at least 1/2" from the size of the console. Plus, the Hard Drive and PSU require additional cooling, and space around the HD for it to be removeable (some sort of EMF shielding, like the PS2 has). Just goes to show, that the Revolution really isn't too small to fit everything that needs to be in it for it to compete graphically with it's competitors.
Lastly, I wonder if Revolution may in fact be the first game console with a metal case, or at least part of it. The high-gloss of the mock-up could very well be there to mimmick painted metal. Would make sense to help cool the system, as the case could be used as a giant heatsink.
Post by: zakkiel on August 07, 2005, 07:17:18 PM
Altogether, not a good situation for cooling. But who knows? Perhaps Nintendo discovered the room-temp superconductor and heat is no longer an issue. Come to think of it, that would solve the power use problem as well. Hmm...
Post by: KDR_11k on August 07, 2005, 08:39:41 PM
Post by: Galford on August 07, 2005, 09:30:39 PM
I also remember reading about some of the early model 6800s that took up two slots for cooling purposes.
I believe it was over at Tech-Report I read about them.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on August 12, 2005, 12:38:09 PM
Post by: Rancid Planet on August 13, 2005, 05:03:52 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on August 14, 2005, 10:10:28 PM
Not sure about banned but the C64 was able to bring a man on the moon as well as play Wizball...
