Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 13, 2005, 10:38:44 AM
"State of the Handheld Industry" is an annual roundtable interview involving both handheld developers and journalists who cover the systems and games. The fifth entry in the series is now available at Nintendo Insider and is broken up into four sections:
Part One - Developer Roundtable
Includes comments from representatives of such noted handheld developers as Vicarious Visions, Torus Games, Pocketeers, Tantalus, WayForward, and others.
Part Two - NOA Interview
This is Nintendo Insider's in-depth interview with Nintendo of America's Perrin Kaplan on the DS and Game Boy Micro.
Part Three - Journalist Roundtable
This discussion includes PGC's own Jonathan Metts, as well as veterans like Steve Kent, Dan Hsu, and Craig Harris.
Part Four - Editorial
This section is Nintendo Insider's own take on the current state of the handheld industry.
Post by: KnowsNothing on July 13, 2005, 04:48:06 PM
Edit: Woah, I didn't realize Jonny was in this! I never really read the names, I just read the stuff. Upon going back, it turns out that his answers were most of the ones I liked the best =o
Post by: mantidor on July 13, 2005, 06:20:00 PM
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on July 13, 2005, 06:35:41 PM
Edit: And they really should get Jerry Holkins to do his thing. Though not technically a game journalist, he's still one of the more knowledgable and insightful people out there.
Post by: Aussie Ben PGC on July 13, 2005, 07:32:12 PM
Post by: Urkel on July 13, 2005, 09:05:21 PM
I laughed my ass off when I read this:
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David Thomas, Denver Post: I’m not a business reporter, but I think I have what it takes to be a business consultant. I am more than happy to form opinions about things I lack most of the critical facts about. With that in mind, I can confidently say that the movie playback in the PSP is among the stupidest ideas I have ever heard of and is proof that business conglomerates give birth to awkward genetic mutants.
The DS has these little movie carts. They are a joke, a novelty. You buy them for your kids because you think your kids want to watch Pokemon on their Game Boy. And after about 10 minutes your kids look at you and say, “Why would we want to watch Pokemon on our Game Boy? We have a 150 inch plasma television in the basement.”
This doesn’t matter to Nintendo because they are not a movie company and the DS is not really a movie machine. It’s like watching someone cook dinner on the radiator on the car. It’s funny. You might even try a bite of meat. But unless you are a crazy hobo, it will not change you notion of a hot meal.
The PSP really, really wants to think of itself as a multimedia machine. Sony really, really wants you to watch movies on your PSP. And why? I am 100% convinced it is because Sony has a profitable division called Sony Pictures. Sony Computer Entertainment, the division most of us call the PlayStation people, is another big, profitable part of Sony.
Here’s what happened (as it appears in my imagination:
Location: A board meeting on Sony’s Floating Corporate Dirigible, high above the Andes.
Sony Pictures Executive: You know, our Spider-Man movie made a lot of money.
Sony Computer Entertainment Executive: Yes it did. I liked that part where Spidey grabbed that piece of pizza from that guy!
Pictures: Your Spider-Man game didn’t do so bad either. Kids like Spider-Man. Let’s put Spider-Man on the PSP!
Computer Entertainment: You know, you’re right. Let’s do it!
I know you think that businesses decisions are not made like this. And you are right. They are usually made using fewer big words and more grunts.
The point is this: Sony Computer Entertainment wants you to buy PlayStation hardware and games. The big Sony Company wants you to buy anything with the Sony brand on it. So, the idea of getting people to buy movies for a game system must have come from a movie guy. It did not come from a game guy. The game guy surely figured that the whole movie thing would cost him dearly. But in this case, the PlayStation guy probably wants to be THE Big Sony guy, so he goes along with the crazy scheme to add movies on his game machine.
They might as well have added a GPS in the box. At least you could use that for games.
The real problem with this is that no one will ever be able to prove any of it. Movie companies will sell 10,000 extra copies of some stupid horror movie on the PSP and say, “See, we sold an extra 10,000 copies.” Never mind that we’ll never have any idea as to whether or not those 10,000 copies came out of the regular DVD channel or not. The bigger problem is that while people are making a little bit of money, it will mask the fact that they could have made more money by selling a cheaper PSP to more gamers. The cost of the PSP discourages gamers from buying it. And to the extent that the cost of the PSP is higher because of movie support, it has hurt gaming.
Post by: Aussie Ben PGC on July 13, 2005, 09:24:06 PM
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Asking me to write about mobile games is like asking a food writer to write about a package of those orange peanut butter crackers. You might do it once or twice on a lark. But sooner or later you realize that aiming your nuclear arsenal of criticism at subject the size of a pup tent. It’s just no fun.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 13, 2005, 09:41:53 PM
Plus he makes a mean Big Bacon Classic.
Steve Kent was pretty dead-on as usual though he was pretty brief in his responses. Jonny came across well too. He seemed very unbiased which is good because you would probably assume that the head of a Nintendo site would be noticably biased towards the DS.
What I found funny is that after half of the guys tripped over themselves to see who could gush over the PSP more the "do you think there's a bias" question comes up and it's almost unanimous that the press is biased towards the PSP. No one said there was a bias towards the DS. They either dodged the question or said "PSP".
And I think there's a reason for that that goes beyond the Sony name or how "sexy" the PSP is. There is a bias towards the PSP because game journalists are gamers and PSP games are for gamers. The DS isn't designed primarily with gamers in mind. Nintendo's trying to attract non-gamers and more of a broader audience. So the journalists don't like it as much because it's not for them. Movie critics are harsh against mainstream popcorn movies. DS games are like popcorn movies. They sacrifice depth and complexity to appeal to a mass-market. Naturally critics are going to be harsher as a result.
Post by: Urkel on July 13, 2005, 10:07:44 PM
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The DS isn't designed primarily with gamers in mind
The PSP isn't designed primarily with gamers in mind, either. That's why it's got superfluous movie and MP3 playability.
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DS games are like popcorn movies. They sacrifice depth and complexity to appeal to a mass-market.
Are you talking about the games that are out right now, or the DS lineup in general? Yoshi Touch & Go and WarioWare hardly represent what the DS will be like just a few months from now.
Ian, what exactly do you consider "games for gamers"? And what are these "deep and complex" games that the PSP has that the DS doesn't? I wasn't aware that racing games and sports games were only for the hardcore.
Post by: thepoga on July 14, 2005, 12:01:15 AM
Has he heard of HEADPHONES? The PSP even has ones that let you play/pause/etc from the headphone part while the PSP is in your pocket or whatever. Bottom line: Don't listen to that idiot.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 14, 2005, 12:20:45 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 03:27:43 AM
Um, no. A gamer is excited by the possibility of more innovative games and if gaming was their only reason they'd be pretty evenly split between DS and PSP or more towards the DS. A corporate whore, on the other hand, will support whoever pays him the most.
As for the "non-gamer" argument, I don't see it. Care to prove that there are no games appealing to gamers on the DS? Because last time I checked gamers love stuff like Wario Ware Touched or Kirby CC.
Post by: Pale on July 14, 2005, 06:27:12 AM
You guys give all of these corporate sites too much credit. They like the PSP because its "cooler". That's all there is to it.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 14, 2005, 07:50:56 AM
I didn't say the PSP is designed with gamers in mind I said PSP GAMES are. They're all very traditional. The existing gaming crowd is the target market for those titles.
Nintendo has said that the DS is supposed to attract non-gamers. There are several games for it that are not designed primarily for the traditional gaming crowd. Therefore a journalist who is a traditional gamer might show more interest in the PSP where literally every game is designed with traditional gamers in mind.
Ignore your own opinion of the DS and PSP libraries. Think like a mainstream journalist and it becomes pretty obvious which portable has more games targetted towards them.
Post by: Pale on July 14, 2005, 08:02:19 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 08:38:22 AM
It's not like Nintendo doesn't deliver its share of "traditional" games, either. New Super Mario Bros? If that's not traditional what is? Castlevania DS? See, third parties are chiming in? Oh no, not released yet! Well, guess what, the game everyone wants for the PSP, GTA:LCS isn't released yet, either.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 14, 2005, 09:20:47 AM
Post by: Deguello on July 14, 2005, 10:48:15 AM
They haven't asked a Sony exec about the slow PSP games schedule and constant delays yet.
Edit:
EGM also had some "E3 report card" or something where they gave the DS a B+ and the PSP a B. Excuse me, were they even AT E3? The PSP's showing was ABYSMAL.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 11:11:22 AM
What they write flies in the face of public oppinion and reality. There is no bias towards the PSP among the populace, there is no bias towards the PSP among gamers and pretty much the only reason these writers can come up with to back up their oppinion (remember, these people are supposed to have well founded oppinions) is "the PSP is sleek and the screen is gorgeous". Perhaps they'll call the DS "Gimicky" or say they're unsure about its future but they'll gladly proclaim a system with such a severe release drought and no defining title the second coming? Excuse me princess, but isn't that exactly why the Gamecube failed? And suddently, because it's shiny it'll sell? What's Nintendo supposed to do to please those guys? Nintendo is trying to make games instead of graphics tech demos and all that time these idiots were complaining about graphics being so overrated and no innovation to be found yet when a system tries to deliver what they demanded they turn around and say "Well, yes, it's innovative and stuff BUT THE PSP IS SHINY!". Journalistic integrity? Hellooooo? If Sony delivered something semi-innovative they'd praise Sony for it but Nintendo gets bashed. Guess what kind of reaction you'd have seen if Nintendo had introduced the Eyetoy instead of Sony? "Oh, it's some stupid gimmick that'll keep your kids busy for five minutes".
Those journalists are anything but gamers. They clearly fail to portray reality in a semi-objective way. If you want reality, read the Penny Arcade newsposts, those guys are more honest and informative than any major news source. What those magazines and websites do is try to make the average guy feel like he's alone in preferring the DS over the PSP. I can't take them serious after the articles they wrote when the DS was succeeding in spite of the PSP, they read like they were trying to hold the floodgates with all their might.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 14, 2005, 12:39:11 PM
It sometimes feels like the Revolution could turn out to be a $99 Star Trek quality Holo Deck with GTA and Halo exclusive and the mainstream gaming media would still bad mouth it and favor the competition
Post by: thepoga on July 14, 2005, 02:14:45 PM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
"Traditional" as in "Yeah, I've played that eight years ago on the Playstation 1".
Actually, the DS has had more ports. And if gamers want something different, than why is one of the most anticipated games for DS Mario Kart? It doesn't add anything new to the gameplay (online doesn't affect the actual gameplay/mechanics/etc.). Half the tracks are going to be from games we've already played. Is it still fun? YES! Stop being so friggin biased against the PSP for the wrong reasons. Is Metal Gear Acid (I refuse to have that stupid ! as the "i") a rehash of the original? Is Lumines? Ridge Racer is a completely new game for the PSP, unlike the crappy PORT we got for the DS. If you're gonna bash something, know what you're talking about.
The DS also has not so good ports of Rayman, Splinter Cell, NFS: Underground 2, The Urbz, Ridge Racer, Rayman, and GoldenEye (this one doesn't really count because the console version sucked too, but its still a port). So far the DS only has one good port and that's Mario 64 DS.
Post by: Deguello on July 14, 2005, 02:16:19 PM
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Actually, the DS has had more ports.
You sure about that?
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 14, 2005, 02:16:42 PM
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Nintendo has said that the DS is supposed to attract non-gamers. There are several games for it that are not designed primarily for the traditional gaming crowd. Therefore a journalist who is a traditional gamer might show more interest in the PSP where literally every game is designed with traditional gamers in mind.
I see where you're coming from with this, but I think you're confusing the term "mainstream" with "innovative".
Most of the games released on the DS have stressed innovation, almost as though gaming companies are being smacked with a sort of "peer pressure" to make use of the DS's features as though they'll be blasted by critics for not making use of them, often ending up with frivolous aspects to the game play.
Bomberman DS is an excellent example of how a company can do both right and wrong. First of all, the game is probably one of the DS's best multiplayer titles, I'd say tied for first with Puyo Pop. 8 players on a single cartridge is value you just can't beat. The game makes uses of both of the DS's screens by having dual arenas and pathways to walk between them. Also, on death, the "revenge", a concept which has been seen in nearly every Bomberman to date, relies upon you sliding a stylus or finger upwards on the touch screen to determine the distance you'll launch your revenge bomb. Make a quicker stroke and the bomb will launch further whereas tapping the screen will result in dropping the bomb immediately in front of you. This turns the revenge feature into a fine science which rewards skill and patience and ultimately results in better game play. The system is not shallow by any stretch as it rewards time put in to learning the system with improved performance at the game (if you kill someone with a revenge bomb, you will be brought back to into the game in their place).
However, the game also has the "gimmicks" which plague the first batch of DS games. There are modes where you can detonate your bombs or activate items by shouting into the microphone. On a game play level, this makes no sense. It's simply using the microphone for the sake of using the microphone, and I think THAT is the mentality which has made the current lineup of DS games what they are.
Most of the first round of games were basically tech demos, but once games like Kirby DS started rolling around, they crossed the line from "tech demo" into valid entertainment mediums. Developers were taking baby steps into the DS because it's a non-traditional system, hence why you'll wind up with non-traditional games until someone figures out how to use the DS's features to create a game which is entertaining and is just so because of the fact that it wouldn't have been entertaining without said features.
I think Kirby is the best example of this, as it was the first game which left the realm of tech demo and truly showed us how the stylus can be used to control the entirety of a character's movement.
In summary, I don't think the first round of games were "mainstream" so much as they were "tech demos". The games coming out now are providing genuine entertainment value by taking advantage of the touch screen (Kirby, Meteos, Nintendogs, Lost in Blue, Trauma Center, etc.). I think that the alleged mainstream games are just the natural adjustment period which you can expect when developers are handed a new system.
They're always going to test the water before they learn how to swim.
-SB
PS. Again, no pun intended. I swear, I'm doing this by accident...
Post by: Ian Sane on July 14, 2005, 02:55:15 PM
That would contribute to the bias. The PSP made a pretty good first impression. It had Lumines and console quality games on a portable. Keep in mind that the high price that was the biggest turnoff didn't apply to jounalists. They get their PSP for FREE. The DS on the other hand had a port as the flagship title (and one that any gaming journalist with even the slightest amount of credibility has played a million times already) and a bunch of gimmick games and EA junk. The DS left a pretty bad first impression, especially compared to the PSP. So that initial impression affects the opinion of the journalist.
Post by: Nephilim on July 14, 2005, 02:57:59 PM
I think its good that Steven L. Kent shared his views, even if he seems very immature with his logic.
Post by: mantidor on July 14, 2005, 04:27:19 PM
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on July 14, 2005, 04:37:11 PM
I'll admit, I didn't agree with a few (actually, most) things he said in this article, but I can't doubt that he's one of the more seasoned veterans in the field.
Post by: mantidor on July 14, 2005, 04:46:38 PM
oh and I have to join to the crowd of David Thomas' lovers...
"Game hardware reporting is not journalism. It’s teenage gossip."
Exactly my thoughts, but I never could find the words to express that! hes just awesome ^_^
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 09:59:25 PM
Post by: Deguello on July 14, 2005, 10:06:30 PM
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oh I see, I respect experience and a good writter, but if the opinion is so badly founded (I'll say it again, UMD movies mark the psp success!? O_o) it really doesnt make it a great journalist in my eyes.
Yeah really. Not to jump onto the Steve Kent feeding frenzy, but that is really ridiculous. The UMD movies are just like David Thomas said. The stupidest idea in videogame history.
Oh, and I'm sure some third parties will be thrilled to have a game they worked on for months/years sell less than Ghostbusters.
Post by: BigJim on July 15, 2005, 03:08:48 AM
Yeah, bad joke.
Anyway, the journalist portion was by far the most interesting. I enjoyed Thomas and Metts a lot. The series also officially solidified my belief that a particular Marketing VP is completely useless.
That being said, BigJim is always investigating informative insight from industry personnel. While he cannot comment on specific Marketing faculty members, BigJim considers all practical possibilities regarding the feasibility of mentioning the particular faculty member in the future. No plans have been announced at this time. BigJim remains committed to being the industry leader in leading industry and is always looking for new and exciting opportunities to lead the way in industry leading. So stay tuned! I hope my prepared marketing statements make you as excited as I clearly am.
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 15, 2005, 07:53:54 AM
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That would contribute to the bias. The PSP made a pretty good first impression. It had Lumines and console quality games on a portable. Keep in mind that the high price that was the biggest turnoff didn't apply to jounalists. They get their PSP for FREE. The DS on the other hand had a port as the flagship title (and one that any gaming journalist with even the slightest amount of credibility has played a million times already) and a bunch of gimmick games and EA junk. The DS left a pretty bad first impression, especially compared to the PSP. So that initial impression affects the opinion of the journalist.
Can't argue there.
I'm just saying that the DS had what it had not because of some attempt to appeal to the mass market, but because developers still had no idea what to do with the touch screen.
-SB
Post by: vudu on July 15, 2005, 09:31:45 AM
QuoteActually, he left the fast food biz to die. Then he left his grave to write about games.
David Thomas left the fast food biz to write about games?
Post by: Ian Sane on July 15, 2005, 10:05:15 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 15, 2005, 11:45:34 AM
The same thing happened to Boston Market after McDonalds bought them out. They used to have excellent food before they were McDonaldized.
-SB
Post by: KDR_11k on July 15, 2005, 12:00:14 PM
Post by: Djunknown on July 15, 2005, 02:26:56 PM
The devs were for the most part pretty objective, except for those who develop exclusivly to the PSP for obvious reasons. Not a bad read.
I skipped Perrin Kaplan's interview to save my sanity. Anything interesting come of out of that, or is it the same old spin with Jedi mind tricks?
Its a shame they couldn't track a Sony spokesperson for a statement/interview to balance it out. Maybe SCE doesn't need to explain itself to the hardcore demographic?
The journalist section ran the gamut of average, awful, insightful and off-the wall. Anybody know if Dave Thomas has an online column (No comments from the peanut gallery please.)? Without sounding like a total suck-up, big props for JonnyBoy reppin' PGC. Good insight as always, with sounding fanboyish.
I'm wondering if I'm the only one not hip with the DS and PSP yet: the GBA is working out fine, and both Nintendo and Sony haven't given me a good reason to pick their machine up. DS online almost makes me want to fork over the C-note and a half, but I'm waiting for 3rd parties will jump on board. Can somelese beside Nintendo or a second party step up to the plate? That's what holding me back.
PSP is a sleek device to hold, but where's their big, big hit? GTA's not going to cut it if I can spend half the cash on consoles/PC.
All in all, great feature, and as the 'handheld wars' progress, next year's feature should have some more solid facts to throw around and debate.
Post by: Deguello on July 15, 2005, 02:48:31 PM
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Its a shame they couldn't track a Sony spokesperson for a statement/interview to balance it out. Maybe SCE doesn't need to explain itself to the hardcore demographic?
Or perhaps SCE would like to explain why they are more interested in UMD Movies than portable games? I'm still waiting for the pointed interview to a Sony exec about how the PSP only has one game this month and possibly next month too.
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 15, 2005, 10:04:17 PM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Heh, I love how the IGN guys go "No! There is no bias! It's all lies spread by fanboys! Hate the fanboys!" when every semi-reasonable semi-hairless primate can tell you that IGN is probably the most biased "publication" outside of astroturfers and propaganda outlets.
IGN coined the phrase "Shotgun Journalism": report everything. SOMETHING is bound to be right.
And yeah, it seems like, every other day, IGN is publishing another unneeded pile of hogwash they call an "editorial" about how Nintendo is doomed and they should sell out to microsoft.
Seriously, if they're not getting paid to bash Nintendo, they should be.
-SB
Post by: Deguello on July 15, 2005, 10:28:14 PM
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And yeah, it seems like, every other day, IGN is publishing another unneeded pile of hogwash they call an "editorial" about how Nintendo is doomed and they should sell out to microsoft.
Even worse is when they editorialize reviews. For example, Mario Kart Double Dash's review was less a game review and more a treatise on superficial fan wishes. FF:CC's became a referendum on connectivity and Nintendo, even though Nintendo had nothing to do with that game other than publishing it. Although technically a review is editorial content, it is a professional responsibility to keep the content of the review germane to the subject and not rant on. If they wanna do that, they should write an editorial.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 15, 2005, 11:11:38 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 16, 2005, 08:03:11 AM
Its presence on the PS2 assures that they cannot do that.
-SB
