Post by: nemo_83 on July 12, 2005, 08:42:05 PM
That is from cube.ign.com, if you havn't read the piece I would suggest it.
This comment could be taken either way; on this occasion I would like to take it as a possitive remark. I am glad Nintendo wants to go in a new direction. I am glad Iwata believes there are too many buttons and too many sticks. That doesn't mean a clean slate though. That could mean one stick on the left side, a trackball on the right side, a scroll wheel in place of the dpad, etc. Buttons can only do so much, and if you're trying to concentrate on motion control via gyro(s) then you don't want ten buttons on the face of the controller.
I'll call it the dolphin
I don't know what to call this one
In these concepts the two halves are connected by a flexible ball that plugs into the console allowing players to charge while they play. Of course that means you split the controller in two for certain games using gyros individually along with the REV camera.
The second picture depicts very simply six possible face buttons including the analog stick and trackball. The true face buttons though can allow you to control the exact thrust of your attack or jump via spinning the wheel when pressing the button. Rather than pressing a pressure sensitive button one would simply spin the wheel as far as you wanted to jump. Or say you wanted to do a kick, but you specifically want to do a spining kick. Same thing for punches. You could jab by simply tapping a button, but you could put force and precise speed into a hook as well by using the wheel.
Edit: I should have explained further. The spidery looking design I offered featured ten buttons (not including the two gyros, or any function buttons like start, on/off, lock switches, channels, etc), seven of which do things not found on the other consoles' controllers. The buttons you don't see are the triggers with digital clicks and scroll wheels (also with digital clicks) located comfortably where the middle finger rests. These scrolling functions allow you to do things like choose visors or weapons. Use your nogin. You can fill in the blanks.
The game designers would have to assign to the wheels, whether to lock in the springloaded mechanic internally, or to unlock them allowing them to be spun continuously. I designed this controller around poly functional mechanics allowing for fewer buttons.
Edit again: revolution: 1.The act or state of revolving. 2. A motion in a closed curve around a center, or a complete circuit made by a body in such a course. 3. Mechanical rotation about an axis, as in a spiral, so as to come to a point corresponding to the starting point. 4. The movement of a planet around the sun or of any celestial body around a center of attraction. 5. A cycle of successive events or changes. 6. The overthrow and replacement of a government or political system by those governed. 7. A drastic change in a condition, method, idea, etc: a revolution in industry.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 12, 2005, 08:46:01 PM
Post by: IceCold on July 12, 2005, 09:25:38 PM
The only problem with that is the compatibility with old games, most importantly the 64.
"they want to touch and play with it"
Innuendos aside, this could be a hint.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 12, 2005, 09:44:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
Nintendo has always been saying that there are too many buttons / the controller is too complicated. There was also that no d-pad/A&B button rumour a while ago.
The only problem with that is the compatibility with old games, most importantly the 64.
"they want to touch and play with it"
Innuendos aside, this could be a hint.
I was already thinking about designing something that if nothing else looked intesting enough that you would have to touch it.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 12, 2005, 10:19:25 PM
Here's my shot at a rev controller, figure I better get it out there before the real one is revealed.
http://www.shyguysite.com/images/rev.png
The idea was to have the main part of the controller be able to flip over so it could be either buttons or a control pad on either side.
Post by: IceCold on July 12, 2005, 11:16:18 PM
Fixed Link
Post by: couchmonkey on July 13, 2005, 05:48:00 AM
Reggie: Hey guys, this system will have all the controls you need to play old games!
Iwata: Hey guys, this system will have fewer controls than our previous ones!
I don't think we've figured it out yet. I don't see how replacing an analog stick with a trackball makes anything simpler - in fact it makes things more complicated, one more type of control for users to figure out. Reconfigurable controls aren't really simpler either, and if they hide certain parts of the controller, then they wreck backwards compatability too. That's not to insult anyone's ideas, they're good ideas but I just don't think they meet Nintendo's criteria.
Personally, I can't imagine how anyone could meet Nintendo's criteria, if Reggie and Iwata are both telling the truth. How do you make controllers simpler without taking away functionality needed for older games? Maybe Gyroscopic controls could do that with some really clever software design, but I'm skeptical. I'm looking forward to seeing the controllers!
Post by: Ian Sane on July 13, 2005, 07:39:41 AM
For gaming the keyboard is without a doubt the most complicated "controller" ever made. Yet it is one that people can adapt to quite easily depending on the game. First person shooters are intimidating. You're expected to move with WASD and use a mouse at the same time as the keyboard. I find that intimidating and I play games. However I've found that most people can get into a PC game if the controls are more simplified. If you move with the arrows and then use a few buttons like spacebar, enter, shift, control, etc. it's not intimidating. I've seen several people who normally don't play games play simple computer games with controls like this. Yet all these other buttons are everywhere and it's not a problem. There is flexibility to allow for complexity and simplification.
Iwata sounds like he's suggesting removing parts of the existing controller design. NO. This is the WRONG way to do it. All this will do is turn away third parties and limit Nintendo's first party teams so that all they can make is simple games.
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 13, 2005, 08:26:49 AM
Seriously, if they really screw the controller, unless they have a really spectacular E3 next year, I might jump boat.
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 13, 2005, 08:32:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
A Cube game is only intimidating if it's something like Splinter Cell where it takes a few minutes just to explain to someone the controls.
Wrong. There's these people called non-gamers, drop-out gamers & casual gamers and they all find todays controllers to be too complicated even to look at let alone to touch or use. These are the kind of people who don't care to remember the name of each of the buttons on the controller. These are the people who don't even know where to place their thumbs durring the game 'cos there's 4 seperate possitions to even put them in. These are the people who WOULD try a controller if it were like the NES pad. Todays controllers are great for the "core" gamers like us, but at the same time they just look intimidating to the eyes of the people Nintendo wants to attract. The GCN's layout is even worse 'cos it looks so childish and toy-like to many non-gamers despite feeling comfortable.
I for one am GLAD that Nintendo is looking to get the drop-out gamer back into gaming 'cos these are some of my friends and my brothers who had given up on gaming once there were more than 2 buttons. You're taking Mr. Iwata's comment as if Nintendo is looking to get rid of all the conventional controls to dumb things down for these people, but I see it as him making it a point to say that they're making the controller look & feel LESS complex for them. This doesn't mean that the new controller won't be able to play complex games, in fact I'm pretty sure it'll be able to handle all new types of control due to it's new features.
Reggie's more recent comments about a configurable controller for BC with past games should also allow for forward compatibility with today's games. It makes me think that customizable touch panels that can offer some sort of tactile resistance (as a button would) is going to be a part of the revolutionary interface. Not full out haptic full color touch screens or anything, but something like that black/blue Russian fake. Plus there's always been talk of "feeling" the new interface.
I've gone back to the drawing boards again for my design. Grip sensitive handles, L & R analog toggle wheel triggers with digital clicks, new jarring force feedback, tilt sensor, mic and a very simplistic (less intimidating) controller face. The face of the controller will have a thumbstick on the left side and a trackball on the right side, the rest of the face will be touch sensitive (due to touch panels) and will light up different button layouts (hence the configurability/customization) as well as in-game player specific info...the surface will be texturized so the player can "feel" where their thumbs are before they press so they don't have to look down at the controller while playing games. The controller LOOKS very basic and simple...that's to lure non-gamers in, but it would also allow for complexity that's even deeper than today's traditional controllers.
Just 'cos Mr. Iwata says controllers are and look too complex, doesn't mean the Revolution will be an NES pad...it just means they're working on a NEW way to play games that looks and feels less intimidating to gamers & non-gamers alike.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 13, 2005, 08:53:21 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 13, 2005, 09:40:17 AM
I find ideas like touchscreen controls and trackballs and gyros and all these other ideas people are throwing around ridiculously intimidating. Those concepts freak the hell out of me. I play games so if I'm confused as hell about these concepts then how are people who have problems with today's controllers going to react to them? These concepts are too different and complex. They'll scare away some existing gamers let alone those not interested now. I could see myself taking MONTHS to get used to some of the designs people around here have had.
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 13, 2005, 09:43:59 AM
The controller is very friendly.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 13, 2005, 09:45:47 AM
To step off topic for a second; I found the vagina more complicated than I had expected. Now things much more natural. The whole urge to touch never wore off though.
Now back to the controller. I feel I have thought far too much about it. To the point were my drawings are symbols for my struggle to gain control over my own life, and at the same time the stronger my grip grows the more wildly the beast bucks.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 13, 2005, 09:48:10 AM
A DS with a gyroscope built-in, sounds perfect to me.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 13, 2005, 10:00:33 AM
Why do we need two sticks? They both do the same thing. You don't want to play a game controlling two characters at once. The right stick should definately be removed and replaced by a trackball.
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 13, 2005, 10:06:45 AM
You're opinion doesn't envelope the entire gaming & non-gaming populous though.
Trackballs, touch panels and gyro tilt paks (not expensive full-out dual-weilding gyro motion control like some are suggesting) are already commonplace in technology. You say it'd scare you away, but touch screen gaming hasn't scared away NDS users. And we're talking about the Revolution's interface here, it'll be better than "just" a touch screen, I believe, if they're going that route. You say those things are turn-off's for you...well what ELSE is going to be so "revolutionary" if it's just more of the same and not something new/different?
Also...I'm not just coming to this conclussion 'cos it's what I want...I just think it makes the most sense from what Nintedno has told us about simplifying controls, attracting the non-gamer, adding something new, giving a sense of feeling as well as having a configurable design that allows for BC as well as forward compatibility. What ELSE can you think of that fits that criteria?
Spak-Spang...
I sorta agree with you...once you FEEL how comfy the GCN controller is (the hangles, L & R buttons and face button layout especially) most people take a liking to it. But, until they actually give it a chance the GCN controller has 4 different thumb possitions (as do the X-BOX & PS2 controllers) which is confusing to non-gamers and the controller itself sorta looks toylike/childish to most mainstreamists, especially compared to the competition's controllers. The Revolution's interface, I think, will deal with those problems by looking simpler as well as less childish.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 13, 2005, 10:27:41 AM
No it can't. The N64 has 8 buttons (if you consider Z and L duplicates, otherwise it's 9). The Cube only has 7. And no the C-stick cannot accurately replace the C buttons for you can push two C buttons at the same time but you cannot push the C-stick in two directions at the same time. Ideally you would want the Cube controller with two more face buttons.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on July 13, 2005, 10:44:19 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 13, 2005, 10:48:46 AM
No it has the function of 7, two of which just happen to have nifty analog sensitivity. The click cannot replace a button because it requires you to push a "different" button to push it.
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 13, 2005, 11:39:10 AM
Ladies liking sticks?
We need more balls?
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 13, 2005, 11:54:29 AM
I actually really like the design of the Cube. And I think it is very friendly to casual gamers and nongamers, it just wasn't comfortable for 1 type of game: fighters.
Most other complaints about the controller is about not having all the same buttons as the competition and not looking sleek like we would have liked.
But I have seen people pickup the Gamecube controller and be comfortable with it because the buttons made logical sense to the brain.
The Big Green button is mostly used as the main action button whatever it is. The next button the red button is for the secondary action. It is very simple to understand. All the other controllers don't have a unique feel to each button and its intimidating to some.
The Revolution can make games even easier by keeping this philosophy.
Removing a control stick for a trackball for instance will allow people to mentally distinguish the two as very items on the controller.
Post by: IceCold on July 13, 2005, 11:57:42 AM
Oh yeah, first off, tut tut KDR & nemo, I thought we said "innuendos aside"..
OK,
"If you have to simplify, simplify the GAMES not the controller."
But, see, some people don't even get into the games; as soon as they look at the controller they make up their mind that it's too complicated to use. And then when they try a game, it's even worse. I'll give my Dad as an example. He tried to use the analogue stick once and he absolutely HATED it; he didn't even know what was going on. And he used to love the NES; we used to play together a lot. Now, compare this to the DS - we know that it is capable of some extremely complicated games, but first I let my Dad try some of the minigames in SM64DS. He loved them, and it got him hooked on the DS. It started with a simple game, but now because of that he is actually trying out other more complicated games, and is finding out how to use the DS easily enough. This is what Nintendo should aim for.
Next,
The Gamecube controller, all faults aside, was the most comfortable and appealing of all of them. It ust fits in your hand so perfectly that you feel like playing as soon as you touch it. This most definitely can not be said about the Xbox and PS2 controllers. And the Wavebird just took the cake. And the digital click was great, but not many developers at all used it, which was a shame. One problem was that devs who made games with the PS2 in mind ported them to the Cube with horrible controls (fighters especially). So I'm sure that the Rev's controller will be comfortable and intuitive, like all Nintendo controllers are.
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 13, 2005, 12:44:37 PM
Post by: IceCold on July 13, 2005, 12:55:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: kirby_killer_dedede
I just hope Nintendo doesn't do what they did with N64 (two ways of holding the controller for analog/digital). I just felt that was stupid.
That was because it was the first console to use the analogue stick so devs weren't used to it, and could use the d-pad & L instead of the analogue stick & Z.
And I liked it.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 13, 2005, 01:24:34 PM
"But, see, some people don't even get into the games; as soon as they look at the controller they make up their mind that it's too complicated to use."
Fine, but there comes a point where it's not worth it. If you're not even going to TRY to game then screw off. Why should I have to deal with a limited controller so that people who refuse to even pick up a controller can game? I can deal with people trying things out and getting confused but not people putting in no effort at all. The fact that Nintendo seems to be targeting this group is what turns me off the most. If you haven't made any effort at all you have no right to complain and you don't deserve to have a brilliant GAMING company like Nintendo focus on you.
We made Nintendo the successful game company it is today. We do not deserve to have our gaming comprimised so that some loser who decided that gaming wasn't for them from a mere glance can game. I care about games and Nintendo. My Mom doesn't. So why is the Rev being designed for her?
Post by: nickmitch on July 13, 2005, 02:21:57 PM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on July 13, 2005, 02:58:49 PM
Nintendo can't abandon their core fanbase because we are the only ones that keep them afloat in the home console front. Nintendo has gone on the record to say that they aren't out to do away with the old type of gaming but that they are just trying to broaden video game's appeal. Nintendo is a big enough company to allocate resources to us hardcore gamers that want our zeldas, metriod etc... and to the non gamers who might be looking for a time killer. Also, just in case you (Ian) or anyone else counter my previous sentence by saying how these other resources spent on the non gamers could be used to create more epic, full filling, traditional games, you have to keep in mind that games aren't made with just you in mind. There should be a market for every type of gamer, even the non gamers. Who knows, maybe we'll end up liking the time killers made for the non gamers. Maybe the development of these time killers helps spark some new ideas or approaches to our old, traditional games.
I still can't see how people can think Nintendo has spent millions in R&D (the Rev is supposed to have the highest R&D cost of all Nintendo's home consoles), signed ATI and IBM to develop custom chips and moved on up to bigger sized discs (as apposed to the Gcube discs) so they can make simple time consumers akin to minesweeper and whatnot that don't require such high end equipment.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 13, 2005, 03:06:21 PM
I would guess 8 buttons (or button-like) and two directional inputs. Most games would be fine with 6 buttons.
The big question is, where do you fit them? the right side gets crowded with more than 4 buttons, IMO. 4 triggers are probably the best way to go, although it's a bit of a compromise, not too mention a little confusing unless they are distinct (not the like PS2 controllers)
I think an analog control pad could narrow the left side of the controller down to one place to put your thumb.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 13, 2005, 05:47:03 PM
What do you get when you mix a trackball, a touch-pad, a srcollwheel and a Triroscope™?
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on July 13, 2005, 08:17:17 PM
http://theblogs.net/user/kingdea/
Basically, what this guy is claiming is that the Rev controller will be basically a modified Cube controller with reworked face buttons, R and L buttons still similar, z button moved to a trigger position similar to the N64 and another button being added on the left handle as another trigger, gyro built in, squeezable handles, a heating and cooling mechanism, and a trackball as apposed to the second analog stick.
Now please hear me out, I think some of what he says makes sence
Modified face buttons plus R and L buttons
There is no way around this, there really is no way Nintendo IMO will remove all face buttons. They need to have at least 4 face buttons to stay alive with the casual and hardcore gamers today and also with the developers that want to keep making traditional games. What they could do to appeal to non gamers is reorganize the face buttons in a manner that doesn't seem demanding. Make the buttons distinguishable so they are easily memorized. The R and L buttons can be carried over from the Cube since they are just smooth as butter and give off the best initial reaction (your fingers feel just right on the R and L buttons when you grabbed a Cube controller for the first time)
Modified Z button
The z button on the Cube I believe is probably the worst placed button I've ever seen from Nintendo. Moving it over to a trigger position is only natural. Everyone (non gamers) can relate to a trigger since even household appliances have them. Sprays in the house have triggers under their nozzles and everyone has held a toy gun at one point or another in life lol.
Gyro tech
This almost seems to be a given. Every time a non gamer tries and plays a game, they sway their hands in the general direction they want to move. Thus why not include gyro tech to put this swaying motion to some actual use. Swaying their hands will only feel natural to a non gamer
Squeezable handles
I guess this could be pulled off by including an analog button (similar to the R and L buttons on the cube) in the same shape as the right and left handles of the controller. All the non gamer would have to do is squeeze the handle to press the button. Squeezing is a very primitive infantile action that should be right at home with everyone. Similar to triggers, squeezing is something we are accustomed to and is part of our every day lives.
Heating and Cooling tech
I don't see this happening, it really doesn't serve any purpose (gameplay wise) outside of just helping you get further in the game. This is something I'd rank up their with rumble features in controls. It has very few methods it can be used for gameplay but its mostly there for entertainment lol. If they can include this in their controller very cheap, I can see them doing it, but if it costs them a pretty penny, I don't see it happening.
Trackball
I think this could very well happen. The second analog stick has become nothing more than a means to control a camera in a game or for aiming in first person shooters. A trackball would be a lot better for both of those purposes. A trackball would give you a lot more precision than an analog stick ever could since you can continuously adjust the trackball till you find just the right position you want. Also, for a non gamer, dealing with one analog stick is hard enough, seeing 2 on a controller just makes things that much worse. A trackball is just a ball in their eyes. A ball is something they've grown familiar with throughout their life. A trackball is just more inviting visually IMO. I can only speak for myself but when I first saw a trackball mouse, I immediately just wanted to touch it, spin it around, and play just for the hell of it.
Now if you add all this up, its basically taking everyday things that non gamers are already accustomed too, and applying them to games. I know they'll still be 4 face buttons and R and L buttons but so did the SNES over 10 yrs ago. Nintendo doesn't need to make the next "Bop It"(as some other forum member said lol, forgot who though) to attract non gamers. All they need to do is make a controller that, as they have said "people will just want to touch and feel it" when they see it. Once they get the person making a physical connection with the control, they'll then begin to learn how to play.
This controller theory is something that could help bring in new players while also still providing for the tradition followers.
Post by: Famicom on July 14, 2005, 12:41:19 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 02:28:46 AM
Certain fighters. Soul Calibur 2 works fine, any indy-made fighter with the 3+1 button convention (3 attack buttons plus one special button) works fine. Some companies insist on giving you too many buttons instead of thinking about how to reduce control complexity. There's really no need to separate attacks per limb unless those limbs can be damaged or something, not having a "kick" and "punch" button also allows for more wacky characters and a more logical correlation between button name and attack.
Famicom: I don't see why the ball would move much, it's a centered weight and all that could turn it is inertia (the sensors will provide enough friction to avoid that already), not likely to happen unless a game requires VERY abrupt movements.
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 14, 2005, 06:02:51 AM
You broke down exactly my feelings.
The Cube controllers buttons were very nice for nongamers, but it did hurt the design for some types of games. If Nintendo was to continue along the same exploration I am sure they can find similar results that would better for more games.
I am thinking still a larger A button, but smaller than the Cubes. The A-Button again will be the resting point button and the other buttons will Surround the A-Button. However, the design would be slightly slanted to allow pushing 2 buttons at the same time easily.
Now, the Trackball. I believe this will happen too. The Trackball works very well for camera work...but it allow works for games like Mario Party that requires you to rotate an analog stick quickly...how about just using the trackball to keep the analog stick from wearing out. PERFECT. The trackball with a creative team can create amazing games.
Pressure Sensitive grips: I don't see this happening. I see these buttons as getting confused with the new trigger buttons underneath the controller. The reason why is that sensitivity of these buttons would be impossible to calibrate. An adult will naturally hold a controller with a firm grip, requiring a much stronger grip to trigger results, but then children might not be able to use the grip properly.
Heat/Cooling: There is absolutely no game benefit to this feature so like you said truth...NO.
Gryo Control: Completely agree...and I also agree that it won't be super advanced use it to do crazy game controls. It will be simple stuff like rolls for Ar-wings and such.
The Z-Trigger wasn't that bad. Really the worst part about it was the L and R buttons were too good to rest your finger on. You didn't want to move the finger up to hit the Z-Button. But that button was never meant to be a main action button. However, this is something Nintendo needs to address. If you want to limit the number of buttons then you need to make sure every button can be used comfortably for multiple uses and several game types.
Post by: couchmonkey on July 14, 2005, 06:07:32 AM
I also don't think we should worry too much since the controller is supposed to be able to play GameCube and N64 games. If it can play those, then there's no reason to think it can't play equally complex Revolution games. The question is how the heck is will it do that while removing buttons and sticks? I have to agree with Ian that some kind of customizable touch-screen or similar controller is even more intimidating than one with a bunch of buttons on it...assuming the touch screen just displays the buttons that they didn't put right on the controller. But I bet Nintendo has already seen that anyway. I don't think it will just be a touch screen with controls all over it....especially since Nintendo has stated that it won't be a touch-screen at all.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on July 14, 2005, 07:29:26 AM
Anyways, I wouldn't worry too much about the controller being drastically simple. Nintendo has announced Metriod Prime 3 for the Rev and they continue to build off the previos 2 (a logical estimate) then the control will still have to be versatile. Metriod Prime is one of the most complicated games control wise. I don't see how we'll be able to switch visors and weapons on the fly while still running, gunning and jumping with a simple controller (unless they were to put the visor and weapons option to be activated through voice command lol)
Post by: Ian Sane on July 14, 2005, 07:42:34 AM
It's not something I think as much as it's something I fear. Logically it seems like a stupid move but Nintendo has done a lot of really questionable moves in the last ten years. The fact that it would be a dumb move is not good enough "proof" that they won't do it. The Cube was like a collection of dumb Nintendo moves. I love Nintendo but I don't trust them anymore. Plus there's the level of support towards the traditional gamer. I don't like what they're doing with the DS. There's too much focus on non-gamer stuff and most of their new original ideas are for stuff like Nintendogs and Electroplankton. It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers. I don't want that for the Rev. If the traditional gamers are supposed to rely on the download service and sequels that's not good enough for me. I don't need to buy a new console to play sequels. Metroid Prime 3 sounds great but I'm not buying a new console for it.
"The second analog stick has become nothing more than a means to control a camera in a game or for aiming in first person shooters. A trackball would be a lot better for both of those purposes."
The problem with this is that the second analog stick shouldn't just be for camera control or aiming. It's mostly used for camera control because of how Nintendo designed it. They made it a nipple stick. It just wasn't as functional as the prime analog stick. But it didn't have to be. It could have been the exact same stick and if it was it might have been used better. It's like when people say you don't need a d-pad anymore because it wasn't that useful on the Cube. Of course it wasn't. It was designed to be useless. Nintendo initially didn't want one but third parties asked for it and since they didn't want to use it themselves they half-assed it and just used the GBA one. Had they put a "real" d-pad on there it would have gotten better use. So don't think of how the c-stick is currently used. Think of how a good second analog stick can be used and then decide if a trackball is a better substitute.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 08:28:25 AM
Ian: Sequels like Yoshi and Kirby? Castlevania DS?
What would you use the second analog for except for camera/aiming? Sure, some games like Katamari use it for tank-controls but generally all games, even those on the PS2 with its equal sticks use it for camera/aim only. That's because your right thumb is on the buttons, few games need more than one primary directional control
Post by: ShyGuy on July 14, 2005, 08:40:27 AM
I can only think of 4 games off the top of my head that had alternate functions for the C stick:
Star Fox Adv: menu system (wasn't that great)
Pikmin: rounding up your pikmin
Luigi's Mansion: aiming the vacuum
Obi Wan for the Xbox: dynamic swinging of your light saber
Post by: vudu on July 14, 2005, 08:58:22 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on July 14, 2005, 09:09:29 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 14, 2005, 09:14:19 AM
Robotron 2084 and Smash TV! YEAH! Okay that's not something that is really widely used but the concept is solid and can be used for other games. Imagine Mario Kart where the C-stick fires the weapons so you use that to pick what direction to fire in. That would be pretty cool and it would be much harder to implement with a trackball.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 14, 2005, 10:11:55 AM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on July 14, 2005, 12:05:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane<br I don't like what they're doing with the DS. There's too much focus on non-gamer stuff and most of their new original ideas are for stuff like Nintendogs and Electroplankton. It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers.
See, this is a typical Nintendo fanboy rant. These past few years, everyone has been drillin Nintendo for not bring Mario Kart and Pokemon online, and to a lesser degree, for Advance Wars, Animal Crossing, and a few other games. Now Nintendo is coming along and answering our complaints and giving us our fav games online and what do they get? "It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers." Its like Nintendo has to be mind readers and be able to see the future to be able to answer all our complaints. We complained about a lack of online and now we are getting them applied to our fav franchises. Yet now there are newer complaints. Nintendo fanboys are like nagging girlfreinds who no matter what you do, you can't ever please. Its a lose lose situation.
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane<br Metroid Prime 3 sounds great but I'm not buying a new console for it
? What exactly does that have to do with what I said? I never mentioned Metriod Prime 3 in reference to it being a system seller. Personally, I believe it is, but looking at through the industry's point of view, it isn't a system seller. The reason I mentioned Metriod Prime 3 is becuase if its developement is based on the previous 2 games (a logical assumption) then you can throw away all these ideas you have of the Rev controller being too simple. Metriod Prime, as I said in my previos post, has one of the most complex control schemes for a console game. I don't mean complex in the way that its hard to master but complex in that it allows alot of different functions on the fly. Tell me how exactly is Rev's "simple" and "dumbied down for the masses" controller goin to allow me to cycle through visors, cycle through beams, run, gun and jump on the fly? Either the Rev's controller is capable of every function our current controllers allow just in a different form or Metriod Prime 3 is going to be a HUGE departure from the previous 2. I for one, believe in the former rather than the later (I think thats how the sayin goes lol, anywho, you know what I mean)
Post by: Morales on July 14, 2005, 04:36:04 PM
Ok, think the shape of the gamecube controller with a less bulky rechargable battery for wireless and the rumble making a return after a brief hiatus from the Wavebird. Take away the dpad, c stick and z button.
The controller will, of course, feature gyroscopes and be splittable into two halves for freedom's sake and also simple games that only use one half.
The face buttons would be replaced with Immersion's touch pad with tactile feedback for a fully customizable configuration.
The grips would be pressure sensitive. I just love that idea, and it basically adds another L and R without having to move your index finger at all.
Put a mic on there, cuz it's cheap and could be used, especially with some of the AI middleware Nintendo is tinkering with.
Finally, the analog stick would utilize some haptic technology that provides resistance and motorized movement. If you get hit, maybe it jerks in that direction. If you're climbing up hill, you'll feel the resistance. Finally, it could be used to (and excuse me for this one) stiffen up the stick when you're playing retro titles so that it functions as basically a mini arcade style joystick, thus making a dpad unnecessary.
Thoughts?
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 14, 2005, 04:49:05 PM
I like the Immersion's touch pad. I believe that could really make it into a controller, but it would be a very basic controller besides that one element. I also like the force feedback idea for the analog stick, but I don't think it is very functional. It works for joysticks because you are holding the stick in your hand, and not just resting your thumb on it. I believe the haptic analog stick like you are describing wouldn't work.
Post by: nickmitch on July 14, 2005, 04:56:12 PM
Many arcade gems require you to press multiple buttons and a touch screen doesn't recognize multiple touch points (I don't think it's ther just yet). Detachable controller means TWO batteries. Most people would just prefer a dpad. The L&R pressure sensitivity wasn't used much this gen so I doubt that it will be next gen.
One last thing: How do you replace the c-stick?
Post by: SgtShiversBen on July 14, 2005, 05:44:42 PM
Quote
Nintendo fanboys are like nagging girlfreinds who no matter what you do, you can't ever please. Its a lose lose situation.
I agree whole heartily with that. Didn't know that girlfriends (now my ex) could be such a pain
In all honesty, I have no idea what the controller will look like. I don't even have a clue. Personally I don't really care all THAT much. I still know I'm buying a Revolution just so that way I can still play SSB on there and this time (unless they lie to us) it will be online.
Post by: Morales on July 14, 2005, 06:00:31 PM
I guess it would require a battery on each side. I don't see that as that big of a deal but then again I'm no cost analyst and I also don't know how much power a controller like this would need. I do know that the gyroscopic microchips consume very little power, however.
The gyroscopic sensors would take the place of the c- stick...and don't knock it till you try it. I'm really just trying to get into Nintendo's head here. You know, a controller, with less sticks and buttons but enough functions to be able to play all the games of previous generations.
Post by: pudu on July 14, 2005, 09:47:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
Touchscreen buttons + arcade style gaming = calc error 473
Many arcade gems require you to press multiple buttons and a touch screen doesn't recognize multiple touch points (I don't think it's ther just yet). Detachable controller means TWO batteries. Most people would just prefer a dpad. The L&R pressure sensitivity wasn't used much this gen so I doubt that it will be next gen.
One last thing: How do you replace the c-stick?
When you touch multiple places on a touchscreen it simply averages the distance between them and finds a "center". I guess they could make a "center" position that is not marked as a button but when pressed it acts as a combination of two buttons. I know this is complicated and, yes, you could simply know the trick and press inbetween the buttons on the invisible "center" but I thought I'd just put down my idea.
Also, lets not forget the technology is always advancing. I've heard (although don't remember where unfortunately) that developers are already tinkering around with ways to register multiple touches at the same time on the DS screen. Maybe by the time rev is released the tech will simply work for multiple inputs. But, anyway, I'm not really that big of a fan of touchsreen buttons anyway. Unless they could somehow have it with logical feedback it sounds like a bad idea. If there was a small screen to display information or select things then I'd be all for that. In fact that'd be pretty damn cool and could free up the screen from stats and hide selections in multiplayer.
Post by: NW on July 15, 2005, 03:21:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Truthliesn1seyesQuote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane<br I don't like what they're doing with the DS. There's too much focus on non-gamer stuff and most of their new original ideas are for stuff like Nintendogs and Electroplankton. It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers.
See, this is a typical Nintendo fanboy rant. These past few years, everyone has been drillin Nintendo for not bring Mario Kart and Pokemon online, and to a lesser degree, for Advance Wars, Animal Crossing, and a few other games. Now Nintendo is coming along and answering our complaints and giving us our fav games online and what do they get? "It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers." Its like Nintendo has to be mind readers and be able to see the future to be able to answer all our complaints. We complained about a lack of online and now we are getting them applied to our fav franchises. Yet now there are newer complaints. Nintendo fanboys are like nagging girlfreinds who no matter what you do, you can't ever please. Its a lose lose situation.
Well, like a nagging girlfriend, they eventually leave you if you ignore them.
"I think we should get a pool. You know, for the kids. I'll even pay for it." "Why don't we try something different instead?! I know! The kids can cool off in THE BATHTUB! THEY CAN INVITE THREE FRIENDS!"
After one idea after another, the girlfriend finally gets sick and dumps you. Who would want to just stand in a bucket of ice with their three friends instead of swimming in a pool? As time passes, with a lot of hesitation you finally get a pool. You try to find that ex-girlfriend in hopes that you can patch the relationship back together. "Hey baby. I've got a swimming pool now! For the kids! And even more, for us!" Then she declines. What, you'd think she'd come back to you after that? It just isn't that simple. She's found someone else who gave her what she wanted. Why should she go back to you? Because you finally gave in after everyone else has done it? You need to convince her as to why she should come back to you. The pool just isn't enough.
That's pretty much the way it is with Nintendo. The other companies offer online gaming. Nintendo on the other hand offers incarnation after incarnation of Pokemon. Finally they offer online gaming and act as if it was never going to be popular before. "Oh, nobody would buy into it." If the Nintendo fans bought into buying a bunch of GBAs to hook up to the GameCube along with the cable links, the GBA cartridges, and the GC game itself, don't you'd think those Nintendo fans would do anything, including online gaming? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Nintendo has finally gone the way of online, but was it really necessary to have all these buckets of ice before we got the pool? Can you really blame the people who buy a GameCube for complaining when they have to sift through a bunch of sequels to find the gems? Where's that next game that will make me love Nintendo all over again? Super Mario 64 dragged me back into Nintendo's clutches, after a certain blue hedgehog had stole my heart long ago. Make the games really worth my money and don't avoid the situation! That's what those nagging girlfriends want.
Also, a "typical Nintendo fanboy" wouldn't say something like: "It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers." That's a Nintendo fan who cares. A typical Nintendo fanboy would watch the other kids eat pizza while he has to eat broccoli. Then he'll mutter under his breath: "Yeah well I don't like pizza anyway.
Heh, sorry for getting off topic...but some of us are really sick of seeing one Mario Party after another, and not the next Super Mario Bros/3/World/64 system killer. Then we're given the online gaming, only with the same old franchises that have been milked endlessly... After that, we're told to stop complaining... so basically we're being told what we like.
In a way you can say the problem is with...communication! Whoa. Like an actual relationship! Funny how it comes full circle back to the nagging girlfriend.
Post by: Artimus on July 15, 2005, 03:57:43 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 15, 2005, 04:00:22 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 15, 2005, 05:26:15 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 15, 2005, 07:38:10 AM
I think the people asking for sequels and the people asking for new stuff are not always the same people. Some people ask for sequels to every game they have ever liked in the world. These are the people who ask for 3D Kid Icarus for no reason other than the fact that they liked Kid Icarus on the NES and 3D is the cool thing to do now. The people who ask for another Punch-Out also fall in this category.
My attitude is that sequels should only be made if there is a creative reason for the sequel to exist. These are the sequels that greatly improve on the original formula. They add new features that make it so that you HAVE to play the sequel or you truly are missing out. The changes and additions should also feel very natural instead of forced (Super Mario Sunshine's waterpack is a perfect example of a change that feels forced). Ideally I would like the sequels to be released a fair bit of space apart so that the formula doesn't burn out too quickly. One game a console seems to be a good schedule to me.
So I want Mario Kart Online because there is a reason for that game to exist. After they release an online Mario Kart for the Rev I'll probably never buy another Mario Kart again. I feel the formula is getting stale. Once a series gets stale I feel they should retire it and work on something else. I think it's good we haven't had another Punch-Out. Super Punch-Out nailed it perfectly. There is no need for a sequel.
As a result I ask for new games to take the place of retired series. I always want something fresh whether it be an updated take on a formula or a brand new game.
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 15, 2005, 08:57:45 AM
Now with the revolution you could have a valid argument for that type of thing. I can play the SNES, N64 and Gamecube Versions of Mario Kart I really don't need the Revolution version.
But guess what...people do really want those new versions.
Some games are so great you just want to play more and more of that game whether they add new stuff or not. However, a game has to end. You can't make a great game that is endless. So what happens is simple, sequels are made to give fans what they want.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the Nintendo Revolution when gamers can play the classics. Will they go back and play the classics which many argue are better versions than the updates. Or will the updated graphics and controls be enough to where noone looks back at the past?
Post by: vudu on July 15, 2005, 09:06:48 AM
QuoteYou've never simply wanted more of the same? After playing SPO dozens of times, I can beat it with my eyes closed (almost). I don't think asking for a new Punch-Out every ten years is asking too much, do you?
I think it's good we haven't had another Punch-Out. Super Punch-Out nailed it perfectly. There is no need for a sequel.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on July 15, 2005, 09:24:42 AM
As for the online aspect that everyone's always complaing about, Nintendo was the first to get their feet wet with online gaming back during the NES era. Nintendo is just now going into online becuase they've finally developed a more cost effitient way that warrents them developing the infastructure needed. Nintendo is not in the business of losing money. Online could've helped the Cube but it woud'nt have yielded a profit. Just look at Xbox live for instance, its been a success yet not even half the Xbox userbase uses it and financially its done nothing but create a even bigger debt on MS.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 15, 2005, 10:01:16 AM
I know. I just said I didn't. I was saying that those who always ask for sequels and those that ask for new stuff are not always the same people so the "Nintendo fans don't know what they want" excuse is false.
I understand that sometimes people want more of the same but I'm looking at it more from a artisitic point of view. I only want to see sequels that need to be made. When you're providing more of the same for people that want it that is a business decision. The incentive there is purely money driven. I feel that sort of decision is short sighted. Releasing sequels purely for money is rehashing and that can bite you in the ass.
Nintendo has two big problems that result directly from too many sequels. First of all non-fans think they're unoriginal because they release like 6 Mario games a year. Those games are usually different but that doesn't change how people think. There are people who think Nintendo is a rehasher and thus aren't interested in their consoles. These people probably would be more interested if there was more variety. The second problem is that there are a large amount of Nintendo fans conditioned to ONLY accept franchise games. So when Nintendo does try something new it doesn't sell as well. If you release too many sequels eventually they'll stop selling enough to be worth it and then it's too late to start up something fresh because everyone has been "trained" to only accept sequels.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 15, 2005, 10:16:27 AM
If I could have my will everyone would be making something new and creative right now. Maybe the industry would crash as a result or maybe it'll reach heights never seen before but one thing is sure: If it died as a result it'd go out in a blaze of glory.
Heh, come to think about it, what we're witnessing is the Holliwoodization of video games and we're the old school movie critics. Everything sucks by our standards because noone cares about us. Or, as those guys who make Heavenly Sword said about the next gen, "the purists will be driven out".
Post by: ShyGuy on July 15, 2005, 10:19:55 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 15, 2005, 10:53:47 AM
Well no one. It's opinion. I'm just saying what I want and what I would do if I ran a videogame company. The ideal solution is balance. Nintendo releases too many sequels and not enough new stuff. I think few would argue that. Things have become too homogenous. They don't have to take it to the level I'm suggesting but they need to cut down on franchises and sequels. There needs to be a good spread of familiar and new.
They're NOT going to sell Revolutions with Mario I'll tell you that. I'm not saying they should kill Mario off but the Nintendo franchises did not sell Cubes so they won't sell Revs.
Post by: MrMojoRising on July 15, 2005, 11:30:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Heh, come to think about it, what we're witnessing is the Holliwoodization of video games and we're the old school movie critics. Everything sucks by our standards because noone cares about us. Or, as those guys who make Heavenly Sword said about the next gen, "the purists will be driven out".
I definately feel this way. I already feel like an elitist when it comes to music and movies, now I have to with video games? I really can't complain about Nintendo making too many sequels...yet*. I look at Sony and Microsoft and see THREE games in one consoles life span and I realize that Nintendo isn't all that bad. And at least when they re-hash something (eg Mario Advance and Mario DS) they let you know it's a game you've already played, as opposed to other developers who package THUG 2** as though it's any different from any other Tony Hawk game you've ever played. I think Nintendo has a fairly good balance of new and familiar, I'm quite satisfied.
* Other than mario party, but I just ignore those...
**I must admit that Tony Hawk games are a guilty pleasure of mine though. I can't help but get every game in the series, their just so addicting, even though they're all essentially the same game!
Post by: nemo_83 on July 16, 2005, 06:56:41 PM
The game designers would have to assign to the wheels, whether to lock in the springloaded mechanic internally, or to unlock them allowing them to be spun continuously. I designed this controller around poly functional mechanics allowing for fewer buttons.
I want to be able to play Madden and be able to control the speed and direction of my spin intuitively. I want to be able to lockon in Metroid and aim freely too without conflict. I want to be able to swing a sword abstractly in any game.
Post by: SgtShiversBen on July 16, 2005, 10:10:40 PM
This is some concept art for the Revolution done my DefectDS. Just thought y'all would like to see it.
Post by: MarioAllStar on July 16, 2005, 10:30:48 PM
I don't really like the glossy controller without protruding joysticks, but that isn't the focus of the entire gallery.
Post by: IceCold on July 16, 2005, 10:49:58 PM
Post by: MrMojoRising on July 17, 2005, 12:32:02 AM
Post by: nickmitch on July 17, 2005, 10:59:05 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 17, 2005, 01:37:08 PM
I'd rather have them than Krystal. Does ANYONE like that character?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 17, 2005, 01:39:24 PM
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 17, 2005, 07:51:41 PM
You can't.
me neither
Post by: KDR_11k on July 18, 2005, 12:06:38 AM
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 18, 2005, 06:13:51 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 18, 2005, 06:37:32 AM
Post by: nickmitch on July 18, 2005, 08:12:55 PM
Post by: ThePerm on July 18, 2005, 08:15:36 PM
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 19, 2005, 04:11:29 AM
The only problem is that it's so obviously based off the PSP menu art. -_-
Post by: nickmitch on July 19, 2005, 09:00:23 AM
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 19, 2005, 05:46:49 PM
And with this post Ladies and Gentlemen, I retire from the Nintendo Revolution thread until something major and official is revealed. "Somewhere out there is the truth and I intend to find it".
Post by: nemo_83 on July 19, 2005, 10:02:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Nile Boogie
Back on the topic of The New Controller. Maybe Nintendo has a point in waiting until Sony & Microsoft becomes more concrete. The download service that seemed to be Nintendos baby has already been copied. This leads me to believe that maybe, just maybe they (Nintendo) really do have something big planed for Revolution controller.
And with this post Ladies and Gentlemen, I retire from the Nintendo Revolution thread until something major and official is revealed. "Somewhere out there is the truth and I intend to find it".
Ed Fries says it is too late for MS and Sony to copy the revolution; assuming the revolution is something radical. MS and Sony are already on set paths. You see for Sony and MS to copy the revolution they would not only have to copy the technology of the controller, but perhaps how Nintendo's chip set is put together (I'm refering to the rummored PPU). Nintendo is either holding off on showing the controller because it is either not really that revolutionary or they are simply waiting to steal MS' thunder with REV news. I don't expect any major announcements from Nintendo until Zelda has shiped because they're noid about holding off info so not to overshadow a release they will actually have on the shelf this year.
Nintendo's primary objective right now is to take the Cube out with a bang hopefully generating some last second profits and momentum going into the REV.
Post by: Zach on July 20, 2005, 09:15:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
Nintendo's primary objective right now is to take the Cube out with a bang hopefully generating some last second profits and momentum going into the REV.
I remember they did kinda the same thing with Majora's Mask, but twighlight Princess is looking to be even better (fingers crossed)
Post by: nickmitch on July 20, 2005, 06:02:51 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on July 20, 2005, 06:37:59 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on July 23, 2005, 02:55:14 AM
"Teddman", a reporter on the Gaming-Age Forums, was proportedly visiting an undisclosed third party developer, when he saw what appeared to be a Wavebird. But something was odd about it, and caught his eye. It didn't have the "kidney" button layout. It had four regular buttons, in the standard SNES style. The buttons also had the Super Famicom coloring scheme. Upon a closer look, he noticed that it didn't say "Nintendo GameCube" on the controller. It said "Nintendo Revolution".
When his hosts saw what he was looking at, they apparently grabbed it and quickly hid it away, telling him that he saw nothing. After some pressing, they later admitted that what he saw was in fact a beta Revolution controller (the most current version), and said that there was nothing "revolutionary" in it, beyond what's present in a Wavebird.
The "revolution" might lie elsewhere.
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 23, 2005, 06:09:02 AM
Possible drawings of the controller?
...with what looks like a VMU coming out of the controller?
Post by: BigJim on July 23, 2005, 07:23:59 AM
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on July 23, 2005, 08:33:29 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 23, 2005, 09:03:24 AM
Post by: ruby_onix on July 23, 2005, 11:49:33 AM
Also, another reporter on those forums calling himself "Johnny Nighttrain" has been cryptically saying for a while that "a revolutionary interface doesn't necessarily mean the controller itself". Although that could just be logical speculation.
BTW, here's a Photoshop mockup that was made a while back, and not based on Teddman's description.
Controller-shop
Teddman didn't say anything about the D-pad taking the analog stick's place, although he didn't really get a long look at it...
Post by: Zach on July 23, 2005, 12:49:04 PM
even though sonys controller is so much like the SNES controller (by coincidence of course) *obvious sarcasm*
Edit: oh well, if they are gonna be idiots like that, then I say screw 'em
Post by: couchmonkey on July 23, 2005, 12:54:44 PM
If it is just the controller itself, I think it would be pretty easy to copy (as Dual Shock showed us, the competition can copy almost any controller Nintendo invents, as long as Nintendo doesn't hold an invincible patent).
Post by: nemo_83 on July 23, 2005, 01:42:49 PM
Plus right now there is this rumor that has resurfaced about Emagin and some smaller company they are associated with that may be doing something with a camera(s) mounted on top of a vr device.
the n game
Post by: IceCold on July 23, 2005, 07:35:46 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 23, 2005, 09:22:05 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on July 23, 2005, 09:25:03 PM
I think that if they are not going to replace the face buttons with a new mechanic then they should at least further the evolution of the GameCube face button layout. I would rather see a large round button surrounded by three arched buttons.
Still I would rather see the face buttons replaced by a new mechanic like I showed in my spidery design at the beginning of the topic. You could spin the wheel continously giving you many times the analog control of an analog stick (though it would be like a 2d analog stick) and you wouldn't have to lift your thumb like with a trackball. It offers new ways to play familiar games like Monkey Ball.
Post by: MrMojoRising on July 24, 2005, 12:33:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
As long as they leave the dpad in the secondary position I'm fine. Primary d-pads encourage devs to ignore the analog stick and then you get control nightmares like most PS2 games (Tekken 5 doesn't support analog control. WTF?).
That's pretty much the only reason I hate the Dual Shock controller. It's not comfortable to have my left thumb down there, why can' they just put it where it should be? (as in where every other controller has it)
Post by: stevey on July 24, 2005, 03:42:58 AM
NO NO NO that look like the xbox and ps2 controller rape the wavebird, this is how he said it look like but it need 6 face button
Post by: KDR_11k on July 24, 2005, 05:06:23 AM
Post by: MarioAllStar on July 24, 2005, 06:05:48 AM
Post by: Fro on July 24, 2005, 06:21:45 AM
Nintendo has some new control scheme where they can at least give the functionality of the 360, PS3, and GC controllers in a simplier, more intuitive control scheme.
In other words, the goal is to make the controller as easy to use as the NES or SNES controller for a novice, have it be less cluttered,yet retain the functions of all those dang buttons and sticks on the current GC controller. You also need to make it so you can hit all those functions at once or independently.
The revolutionary design Nintendo has cooked up does all that and provides new types of games to play for home consoles.
The Gamecube, X-Box, and PS2 are still using the same basic controls that arcade games have used for the past 30 years. Surely there has to be a better way.
If you had gyros and pressure sensitive handles, you possibly could get rid of the digital pad, camera stick, L, R, and Z buttons, for example. That would go a long way towards making things easier to use.
Post by: stevey on July 24, 2005, 08:01:16 AM
Post by: nickmitch on July 24, 2005, 11:41:38 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 24, 2005, 08:31:22 PM
Yes it is pretty much exactly what I wanted. Though at this point, even thought I would be happy with a controller like that, if that's all they had I would be pretty peeved they hid it for so long.
"The Gamecube, X-Box, and PS2 are still using the same basic controls that arcade games have used for the past 30 years. Surely there has to be a better way."
What sort of logic is that? I'd say the fact that has remained for 30 years shows how solid of a design it is.
Wheels have been round for over a hundred years. Surely a better shape must exist. Sometimes things stay the way they are because they're the best.
Post by: couchmonkey on July 25, 2005, 06:50:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Yes it is pretty much exactly what I wanted. Though at this point, even thought I would be happy with a controller like that, if that's all they had I would be pretty peeved they hid it for so long.
100% agreed. I'd like Nintendo to do something a little more traditional in terms of button layout, but that would be no reason to hide it. I'm sure Nintendo knows that though. I mean, releasing a controller that's even less unique than your last one is not an innovation. I'd like to take a second to harp on my personal pet-peeve. If they go back to a Super NES button layout, great, but please shape the buttons differently like the North American Super Nintendo did! It makes it so much easier to learn the buttons.
Edit: changed U.S. to North America to appease dumb Canadians (like me). And Mexicans...don't know if they got the same Super NES as us, or if there are any on here, but you know, equality and all that nice stuff.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 25, 2005, 07:27:11 AM
That is the point I've been trying to prove, but I think squeeze grips complicates things further. However they do it it will work similar to how the c stick replaced the c buttons.
"Wheels have been round for over a hundred years. Surely a better shape must exist. Sometimes things stay the way they are because they're the best."
The wheel is perfect and that is why we need to get that thing back on the controllers. The first controller ever for a home console was a nob/wheel you turned to play Pong.
And uh, wheels have been around something like fifty thousand years.
I'm curious where you guys believe the revolution is at if it isn't in the controller (if you believe the wavebird report)? Do you believe they will package in two controllers; one traditional and the other something out there like a haptic stylus? Do you believe they will really try to claim a single gyro is a revolution? Next next gen the competition would put gyros in their controllers and claim Nintendo copied them when Nintendo uses two. Do you believe they will finally package in VR?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 25, 2005, 07:36:08 AM
Post by: stevey on July 25, 2005, 08:28:40 AM
"Yes it is pretty much exactly what I wanted. Though at this point, even thought I would be happy with a controller like that, if that's all they had I would be pretty peeved they hid it for so long."
OMG even when you get your way you still bitch! There is no way of pleasing you is there?
Post by: nickmitch on July 25, 2005, 09:00:25 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on July 25, 2005, 11:16:49 AM
Post by: stevey on July 25, 2005, 03:10:48 PM
Post by: MrMojoRising on July 25, 2005, 03:13:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I'd be happy with one little controller innovation from Nintendo, considering that both MS and Sony added no new functionality to their next gen controllers. How hard would it have been for them to put in a trackball or scroll wheel?
I agree, even something little like that would appease me. If they don't at least have something as different as a trackball or scroll wheel then Nintendo is officially stupid for hyping this "Revolution." I'm fairly confident they have something up their sleeves though.
Concerning the button layout and the SNES style I hope they keep the different shaped/sized buttons that the GC controller had. Not necissarily the exact same button layout as GC but I like being able to feel which button is which without looking.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 25, 2005, 07:09:43 PM
One problem with any screen is that you can hardly go back and forth between a screen and the thumb controls. That is why the trackball and scroll wheel are a better idea for thumb/mouse control on the controller; you get tactile feedback without an expensive gimicky underused haptic screen.
Post by: nickmitch on July 25, 2005, 07:34:34 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on July 25, 2005, 09:05:30 PM
Post by: Dasmos on July 25, 2005, 09:34:25 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on July 25, 2005, 09:57:38 PM
Still, I think either device would be a boon to console game playing, no matter who implemented them.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 25, 2005, 11:18:34 PM
Post by: MrMojoRising on July 26, 2005, 12:23:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
Track balls and scrolls wheels??? Man anyone who finds that revolutionary is obviously a dire idiots!! That is so "meh".......not revolutionary in the slightest..
I'm not saying they are revolutionary I'm saying that I expect at least something as minor as a trackball or scroll wheel. I still think that Nintendo would look stupid for calling it a revolution, but then again, I can't think of anything they could really do to warrent such a cocky name.
Post by: Dasmos on July 26, 2005, 12:56:05 AM
P.S. Mr. Mojo Rising is it alright if i call you Jim Morrison??
Post by: stevey on July 26, 2005, 05:08:34 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 26, 2005, 08:34:15 AM
Post by: nickmitch on July 26, 2005, 09:41:35 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 26, 2005, 09:55:17 AM
However the design works really well with the NES, SNES, and N64 and Cube games can use the Cube controllers though I think that would be somewhat inconvenient for any Rev owner who doesn't own a Cube. I would want the option to customize the button mapping. For the NES I personally would want the B button above the A button like the Y & B buttons on the SNES. And the N64 needs the option to assign L to Z or L depending on the game.
The ergonomics need some work too. Handles would be nice. But it's still really good in theory and it adds something new without wanging traditional game design.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 26, 2005, 10:09:57 AM
How do you fit rumble and motion sensors in the same controller? You don't have to. Logically you wouldn't want to use both at the same time anyway so you have a slot and a rumble adapter or motion sensor can be inserted. It's like how some GBA games have special cartridges. Controllers come with a rumble adapter as a standard and they don't use batteries or anything. They run off the controller's power like rumble does now. It would probably be pretty expensive to include a rumble pack and a motion sensor and maybe even a mic with every controller. But they could include those adapters with each console. So no matter what third parties know that ever Rev owner has access to motion control and a microphone for at least one player. Obviously the "packs" can be sold seperately for other controllers.
This allows for flexibility, keeps controller costs down, and solves the userbase problem that keeps third parties from supporting accessories.
Post by: stevey on July 26, 2005, 10:10:52 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 26, 2005, 10:55:25 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on July 26, 2005, 11:28:57 AM
Yeah but they would complain about higher controller prices too particularly if they had no intention of playing motion sensor games. Either way someone is going to complain so compromise.
It all depends on how a game is designed anyway. Crystal Chronicles and Four Swords Adventure pissed people off because not only did they require expensive hardware but they were designed in such a way that they relied on multiplayer to even be remotely enjoyable. If Nintendo had released a one-player connectivity game people wouldn't have complained as much. So if Nintendo did this and released one player motion sensor games like they have on the GBA it would be no problem. If they released offline "multiplayer only or it's boring" games that require gyros then they would be just asking for backlash.
This would have the advantage in that every Rev owner would have at least one gyro so if your friends own a Rev they can bring their motion pack with them when they come over. That's not perfect but it's more flexible and realistic than connectivity was. Plus the Rev is online so someone can own only one controller and still play multiplayer.
If they can cram everything in a controller without it being ridiculous expensive and without f*cking the rest of the controller up then they should do it. But I sure as hell won't pay more money for extra features that I consider pretty gimmicky anyway. Odds are either way you're going to pay for it so you might as well make it a seperate purchase. You can pay $40 for a controller with a gyro built in or $30 for a controller plus $10 for a gyro.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 26, 2005, 12:05:35 PM
I know what was said in EGM but it still seems unclear about what the Rev controller can do and still have "fewer buttons and Sticks".
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 26, 2005, 12:11:50 PM
I predict the Revolution controller will work with all systems, but not very well. So that Trackball not being perfect for the Gamecube, but still being there is believable.
I actually believe Nintendo will be releasing wireless versions of the classic controllers for a fairly cheap price.
If you downloaded the entire NES library and you want to play it old school, then you can buy a cheap wireless NES controller and such. Though realistically they will probably only do this with the SNES and Nintendo 64 controllers.
That would be the perfect solution. You could easily offer a 2 pack wireless SNES controllers for $25-30 dollars. Same with a wireless Nintendo 64 controller.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 26, 2005, 12:18:07 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 26, 2005, 12:24:52 PM
Ian: I like your idea in theory.
Besides Nintendo could easily package game with bonus Motion sensor packs, and rumble packs. Promotions could also be used for preorders. Preorder the Revolution and get an extra Rumble and Motion sensor pack. Preorder Smash Brothers and get a free Motion Sensor. Preorder Pikmin and get a free Rumble pack...eventually you could have four of everything pretty easily...and it would boost Nintendo's preorder sales.
I think the Microphone can and should be built into the controller, that way you don't need too attachments.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 26, 2005, 12:33:58 PM
Because it would be very inconsiderent to new users if it didn't. Those of us who own Gamecubes can always just use our old controllers but someone who didn't own a Cube and bought a Rev partially because of Cube backwards compatibility wouldn' t have that luxury. They would have to buy two different sets of controllers and that would be unacceptable. Requiring the purchase of old controllers would really hurt the appeal of backwards compatibility. I view the inclusion of Cube controller ports as being user-friendly so that a few accessory driven games like Donkey Konga and Four Swords Adventures can still be playable with four players.
Plus if the Rev controller can't play Cube games then it's probably fair to say that it would be ill-suited to play modern games. Plus it since the other consoles' controller are so similar to the Cube design it would kill multiplatform third party support and possibly third party support period. If it can't play games from last generation then it's a restrictive worthless hunk of junk.
I like the idea of Nintendo selling classic style controllers but I wouldn't want to have to buy those old controllers. That sort of requirement would really hurt the selling point of the download service. It is so easy to just download those games illegally for free. You throw any sort of unnecessary hassle into the concept and people will just say "f*ck it" and stick to downloading roms.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 26, 2005, 12:56:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Why do people feel as if the Rev controller has to play GameCube games?"
Because it would be very inconsiderent to new users if it didn't. Those of us who own Gamecubes can always just use our old controllers but someone who didn't own a Cube and bought a Rev partially because of Cube backwards compatibility wouldn' t have that luxury. They would have to buy two different sets of controllers and that would be unacceptable. Requiring the purchase of old controllers would really hurt the appeal of backwards compatibility. I view the inclusion of Cube controller ports as being user-friendly so that a few accessory driven games like Donkey Konga and Four Swords Adventures can still be playable with four players.
Plus if the Rev controller can't play Cube games then it's probably fair to say that it would be ill-suited to play modern games. Plus it since the other consoles' controller are so similar to the Cube design it would kill multiplatform third party support and possibly third party support period. If it can't play games from last generation then it's a restrictive worthless hunk of junk.
So if their a "New User" that would mean they don't have any GameCube games either and would have to go out and purchuse them as well. If the RevOluton didn't have GameCube ports already on the unit the I would agree totally. But if you don't have a GameCube and all you have to do to have access to 400+ games is buy a $24.99 joystick I'm not sure that's asking too much. Besides if indeed Nintendo is saying that this is a Super Deluxe GameCube then can't developers make games for the RevOlution with the GameCube controller in mind, if you get where I'm going.
Post by: couchmonkey on July 26, 2005, 01:01:27 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 26, 2005, 01:12:06 PM
Nintendo said all the systems are playable via the Revolution controller, they just may not be the best.
In other words. The C-Ball could be used as a C-Stick in most cases work fine, perhaps even work BETTER...but for those that want to use Gamecube Controllers then you can use the Gamecube ports.
Now for SNES and NES ports I really think all those games will be easily playable, but some classic gamers may want the feel of the old SNES controller. In that sense providing a Retro Controller would be good...and Even better for simplifying controllers for say fighting games.
The only controller that would possible be hard to emulate with the Revolution controller would be the Nintendo 64 controller. However, I don't see that as a big issue. However, having a wireless N64 controller to buy would be great for purists that want to feel the Z-trigger for First Person shooters and such.
Heck if its cheap enough 3rd parties could get in on the mix and create controllers for their special games.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 26, 2005, 01:27:43 PM
Maybe I just don't see what you good folks are seeing. I do have a open mind to learn if I am wrong however.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 26, 2005, 02:17:10 PM
It's not really that cost effective to put in DVD playback either. Sure they're selling a DVD playback kit but there's no real need for such a feature. They're just putting it in to be more flexible. Nintendo has a largely justfiable image of being an inflexible dickhead who gleefully jerks their fanbase around to save pennies. Putting Cube ports on the Rev works to repair that image. The cost of of adding the ports is made up by the consumer goodwill they bring and the increased sales that result from it. There are a lot of Nintendo fans that have reached their limit in tolerating Nintendo's BS. Being user friendly is pretty much a requirement to keep those fans on board.
Plus forcing people to own two different types of controllers is such a STUPID idea. I don't trust Nintendo that much anymore but I still find it hard to believe they're that incompetant. There's being out-of-touch and then there's being a complete moron.
Post by: nickmitch on July 26, 2005, 04:46:10 PM
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 26, 2005, 05:01:57 PM
I'm hoping that the Revolution controller can be used to play GCN games, but whenever Nintendo refers to the "interface" they always say that it'll work well for backwords compatibility with NES, SNES & N64 games...leaving out the GCN games. Cutting out functionality by making it incompatible with GCN games would likely mean that ports from other systems (who use similar to GCN type controllers) would not be wise.
Adding controller slots (like with N64, DC & X-BOX) back would be nice for expansion, but I'm hoping that whatever revolutionary features are BUILT-IN to each controller from the get-go. Besides, there was an oppurtunity to do lot's of things with controller slots in the past, adding slots now just goes right back to those problems of having to buy all these new "paks" to get full function with some games. I'm more liking the idea of having a EXT port that can be attached to different options outside of the controller like the GameBoy mini.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 26, 2005, 06:46:27 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 27, 2005, 12:57:43 AM
?rof ytilibitapmoc sdrowkcab deen uoy od tahW
Post by: trip1eX on July 27, 2005, 05:43:30 AM
The gyro stuff seems like a nobrainer given that they have used that tech in 2 or 3 gameboy advance games and it seems small enough.
The hint that the controller will be good for a pikmin game means some kind of mouse-like device. Possibly this is the gyro too (Nintendo has that tech agreement with the makers of gryo mice,) tho possibly it is a trackpad/ball.
Post by: Nile Boogie on July 27, 2005, 06:19:54 AM
Post by: Fro on July 27, 2005, 06:35:48 AM
New Shiggy interview in Gamespy talking about controller design.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 27, 2005, 02:09:03 PM
What's one controller design that is not intimidating? Arcade joystick setups. You have the stick and a bunch of big buttons. Arcades in their prime had huge mass appeal so few would find that intimidating. A d-pad is needed for digital control but an arcade joystick is just as good if not better. Shoulder buttons can be intimidating but the reason they exist is to make it easier to push several buttons at once. That's easier to do with an arcade stick because you can use all of your fingers for face buttons instead of just your thumb. The one thing missing is an analog stick. I suggest that the analog stick be on the top of the joystick. Think of how you hold an arcade joystick. It would be pretty easy to pop your thumb on top and use the analog stick. They could put a feature in that locks the digital joystick in place so that you can use the analog stick without the joystick underneath moving around. They can throw a trackball on the controller then as well since it's an arcade staple. A z-trigger style button on the joystick for your index finger would also work well for N64 compatibility.
The only problem is Cube compatibility. I don't like the idea of requiring the use of the Cube controller ports for backwards compatibility but at the very least it's a workaround even if it's not very user-friendly.
I don't really think this is that great of a controller design but I could see Nintendo using an arcade style design. It would certainly make things simpler for non-gamers. It's also a concept that has existed for a long time yet hasn't been brought to home consoles in a major way (except the Neo Geo). Nintendo did suggest that it's an existing concept that people just haven't thought to use.
Post by: nickmitch on July 27, 2005, 04:26:47 PM
Quote
Miyamoto says that Nintendo has created such a controller.
Well at least it's done.
Post by: IceCold on July 27, 2005, 07:31:18 PM
And he said that the controller is very easy to copy; hopefully it isn't the only unique feature of the Rev
Oh, and about your arcade controller idea Ian, I don't know about that. First, it would be too big. Also. when you would use the analogue stick if it were on top of the joystick it would feel odd because of the height difference from it to the buttons. Then the buttons would be too many - I know this was part of arcades, but I don't like the idea of so many buttons, and using all of your fingers apart from your thumb would be confusing to me.
That's why i like that idea of the d-pad encompassing a trackball - saves space and is definitely more inviting and simple.
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 27, 2005, 07:36:26 PM
As far as the Nintendo quote about using something different/new...that was meant that it wasn't new, just new to gaming. An arcade stick is not new to gaming...plus it'd kill portability. It would help in bringing back...old...old school gamers back, but I don't think it's likely.
Someone was talking about a new way to invent the D-Pad or control stick. I came up with a concept (that I don't think will happen, but it's an idea) of a large D-Button with a small jogball (like a smaller, softer more sensitive trackball) placed in the center. The D-Button would work like an 8 dirrectional D-Pad only it would be pressure sensitive to a degree in each dirrection either determining the possition or intensity of a press. The jogball could be used in conjuction or as a more sensitive way to control. The problem is using it in a game that required a stick and a D-Pad at the same time (Metroid Prime ex: moving with the stick, changing visors with the D-Pad) as it would be hard to tell the "D-Button" which function (digital or more analog) the player wanted to use.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 27, 2005, 07:54:52 PM
I would find having to talk into a mic to control functions that could easily be assigned to a button to get really annoying really quickly. Who the hell wants to talk to their games all the time? Plus accents and different vocal ranges would goof it all up. Voice activation phone systems don't work worth crap and are a huge pain to use. Do we really want THAT to become a standard for game control? I imagine anyone from the southern States or Newfoundland or certain parts of Britian or from a non-English speaking country would be screwed. Thick accents = broken controls.
Post by: KnowsNothing on July 27, 2005, 08:06:04 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 27, 2005, 08:53:07 PM
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 27, 2005, 08:56:32 PM
Besides, when I think about mic commands I don't think of actual verbal words ('cos I've never known it to work real well), but more tones & volumes. Sounds like whistling, singing, blowing, clapping, laughing, yelling...all of which are universal across the world. When you want your Pikmin to sneak around whisper to them, when you want them to hurry up, yell at them. Doesn't matter what you say when you do it, just express the proper tone/volume and you're in.
Post by: MrMojoRising on July 27, 2005, 11:03:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Actually, with every voice recognition device I've tried, accents don't matter at all. No matter who you are or how you sound, the machine will never understand you.
I hope that Odama's voice commands work, because that would be awesome....anyways...The controller should have a mic jack to connect to a headset for voice chat online, then that could also be used in games if a developer wanted. In pikmin you could actually whistle to grab the attention of your pikmin! That would be kind of cool, it would be gimmicky and get old really fast, but it would still be cool.
Post by: Dasmos on July 28, 2005, 12:21:48 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 28, 2005, 09:08:25 AM
What I am thinking is an analog stick that gives you alittle resistance after you push it so far but then allows you to push further.
This would allow you to simulate digital input fairly easily. Read: Arcade Stick like controls. As well as giving you even greater analog stick control. (Basically you have a much easier way to read minor movements required for some games.
If the both isn't possible perhaps the game could set the controller into a position that can restricts movements, for more traditional controls, and then allows for full analog when controllers need it.
I think that kind of adjustment would be great for gaming, because it takes one more "scary" element to gaming and simplifies it.
Shoulder Buttons I don't find intemidating at all, when they are designed properly. Shoulder Buttons are naturally perfect for controls that need varying sensitivity. Like the Gas and Breaks on a car. I would actually like a more stiff Shoulder Button with more varying degrees of sensitivity. A shoulder Button you can press in Half way and it be comfortable to hold that position.
A nice Diamond 4 Button layout would also be ideal. Four Buttons adds functionality but the SNES shows that it wasn't too much or too demanding. In Fact following the SNES that allows you reasonably to have two more buttons on the shoulders that act as pure Digital buttons as opposed to the analog Buttons also on the shoulder.
The only question left is what to do with second analog stick? Dropping it makes it impossible to play Gamecube games, and makes several 3D games very hard to play...however, keeping it clutters the controller and makes it complex again. I don't have an answer for that problem yet.
Post by: Zach on July 28, 2005, 09:24:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MrMojoRising
In pikmin you could actually whistle to grab the attention of your pikmin! That would be kind of cool, it would be gimmicky and get old really fast, but it would still be cool.
Only problem with that is alot of kids (and some adults) cant whistle, so they would have to also map that funtion to a button anyway.
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 28, 2005, 09:29:03 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 28, 2005, 09:56:08 AM
They can't get the controls down and fail at an easy game because the controls confused them. I have even tried to sit down and explain the controls...and with adults they finally get it after ALOT of practice, but younger children don't get the games at all.
I don't know what the solution is because Analog controls are the best friend of 3D games and one of the best innovations in gaming in my opinion.
Perhaps a much tighter analog stick with the same varying degrees would help make the controls easier to grasp. But right now it is almost too easy to just push all the way to the edge of the controller and spin out your car or what not.
I always did like Nintendos analog sticks better because they had more movement to them. Sony's seemed to hit the edge too quickly, so did Xbox, but Nintendo's had a good feel to them.
Also I hope Nintendo stays away from hidden buttons like the Analog Buttons on the Sony and Xbox controllers. I find those annoying because they don't make practical sense to the brain. Oh I control my Camera with this stick but can also click it as a button....OK.
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 28, 2005, 09:59:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
At least he finally stated that the interface was the controller...
I wouldn't be too sure. Not saying I believe in VR goggles or 3D glasses or gyro tracking headsets...but I think they refer to the whole user experience as the "interface".
Post by: IceCold on July 28, 2005, 11:58:32 AM
Gyros?
Post by: ShyGuy on July 28, 2005, 01:10:41 PM
I'm all for consolidating the two directional inputs on the left side into one, but the problem is a number of gamecube games mapped other functions to the cross pad. (like the spells in Eternal Darkness or the Map in Windwaker)
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 28, 2005, 01:54:35 PM
You could easily trick the game if there was another Z-button on the left side into holding it down and selecting a direction to react as the D-Pad on the Cube. A flawed but workable Fix.
Or you could require people to buy the Cube Controller for Cube games...but then why not just require that for any game that needs more advanced controls. Its not a good fix at all, in fact its a horrible fix.
I still don't see how Gyros truly enhance gaming. I am not convinced just yet, and I don't think Nintendo is either. I feel Nintendo is actually trying to streamline the controller into the perfect input device with no fat. I really like that idea because I think there is some fat in current controllers that need to be trimmed. Too often all the buttons on a controller are used just because they are there, and developers aren't challenged to figure out new means of designing the game better.
Post by: Ian Sane on July 28, 2005, 02:10:08 PM
The problem is that Nintendo isn't in a position to challenge developers in that way. A third party isn't going to say "I have less buttons to work with so I have to be creative." They're going to say "my PS3 game doesn't work on this controller. F*ck it. I just won't bother then." Exclusive third party games for Nintendo consoles are rare and restricting things to be "challenging" is just going to make it worse. Nintendo's best bet is to add to the existing design to provide more options but without restricting developers even if it may be "good for them".
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 28, 2005, 03:41:05 PM
Nintendo could easily design a very well thought out controller that just perfects every element of the current generation controllers, and do ok, but I would still want more.
Either making the Analog Sticks stiffers or adding that slight resistance at one point in the analog movement I think is essential the next generation to add much more control and playability with the controllers, but I doubt we will that.
I would argue the same with shoulder Buttons. I would like to see the Digital click feature dropped and just have a much more sensitive and sticker Shoulder Button. Also add to simple digital click Shoulder buttons just to balance out the design.
Buttons I don't know. 4 on the face is fine, and I would like a means to tell the buttons apart. Perhaps 4 buttons, the top two have dimpled buttons and the bottom two be normal buttons...then have the top left and bottom right buttons have a raised nudge like on Keyboards "f" and "j" key to help mark the buttons. If Nintendo did that they would have achieved what they did with the Cube controller, but not hindered double button presses and such.
Add in a Microphone to every controller and you have the basic controller perfected.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 28, 2005, 10:06:01 PM
How about this? an optical sensor on the bottom of the controller that could be turned on and then the controller be pushed like a mouse on a surface?
I donno, I just really want to see another kind of analog secondary control added. I really dislike dual analog sticks for aiming. That's why I like Prime and RE4, you just toggle the left stick to aim, it works much better, IMO.
Post by: IceCold on July 28, 2005, 10:38:21 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 29, 2005, 05:22:19 AM
Dual Analog is the closest thing we got to really good FPS controls. Everyone says Mouse and Keyboard have been the best...but its actually a really really bad setup. The mouse is a decent controller for looking around and aiming, but the keyboard is completely horrible for movement and such. Its a very unnatural setup.
I believe the reason people believe it is so good is because they learned to play those games with it. They are used to the setup.
The future needs better device...but again...Gyros aren't the answer. Perhaps just perfecting Analog controller to allow much more precision is what is required.
The Gamecube has had the best analog controller to date and even it is flawed from perfection.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 29, 2005, 06:37:51 AM
What'd I'd like to do is pickup a gyro mouse and test it out, but they sell for $79 at the store, and that's still a little pricey for a mouse to me.
Post by: MANTI5 on July 29, 2005, 06:57:06 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on July 29, 2005, 07:41:22 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 29, 2005, 07:57:49 AM
Can we eliminate the obvious problems with Gyro controls?
Can we figure out ways of making an Analog Stick behave similar to a digital Arcade stick to eliminate the need for a D-Pad?
Can we figure out a means to get more definate precision with an analog joystick. I believe the analog stick should be so well designed that you can feel how sharp you are turning or how fast you are running from the position of the stick not just the onscreen clues...how do we achieve that?
Is a trackball/mouse a legit answer? It would definately open up some more possibilities in game design. (Wario Ware or Mario Party would ROCK with a trackball addition to the controller.)
Post by: ShyGuy on July 29, 2005, 09:32:21 AM
I guess the ideal thing would be to have a changeable interface, but that requires either a touch screen, parts that swap out, or a number of different controllers.
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 29, 2005, 09:59:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Well then lets brainstorm some more.
Can we eliminate the obvious problems with Gyro controls?
Can we figure out ways of making an Analog Stick behave similar to a digital Arcade stick to eliminate the need for a D-Pad?
Can we figure out a means to get more definate precision with an analog joystick. I believe the analog stick should be so well designed that you can feel how sharp you are turning or how fast you are running from the position of the stick not just the onscreen clues...how do we achieve that?
Is a trackball/mouse a legit answer? It would definately open up some more possibilities in game design. (Wario Ware or Mario Party would ROCK with a trackball addition to the controller.)
I totally believe in what Teddman saw/said about the Revolution controller. I don't think it's the end-all be-all though. For instance, I think the (GCN-like) placement and basic features will be like what he saw so as to give developers a fast heads-up with beta Revolution developement kits. But the controller, as a whole, will be more comfortably layed out and possibly have some feature changes/added with final developement kits.
Teddman basically saw a wavebird with a SNES button layout and was told there was no gyros or touch screen even planned at all. However, he didn't know what was internal nor do any of us know what Nintendo may add later. Teddman is just a journalist, not a developer...and the developer he talked to may have been throwing him off...but I do believe now, that there won't be gyros or a touch screen due to them being impractical, complex & expensive. I could be wrong, but the recent Miyamoto interview, Nintendo's past statements about simplicity and Teddman support what I'm saying here.
Then there's the King Dea blog...say what you will, but his discription basically fits what Teddman said of it *looking* like a WaveBird while (since he's suppossedly a developer) listing internal features. He also says no screen, but he mentions gyro's, but like in passing. I'm thinking this magical gyro journey will merely be a tilt pak (like what's in some GBA games and what was planned on being in the NDS). This still would benifit gaming being able to move the controller for control, but it's no replacement for a stick or fluent 3D movement. King Dea also states a more advanced force feedback, a heating/cooling sensation when holding the controller and grip sensitive handles...all of which would be more internal things Teddman couldn't see in his 10 second glance...so they may be true. King Dea also says the secondary C-Stick is replaced by a trackball which doesn't fit with what Teddman say, but again, the GCN's C-Stick would look and work a little like a trackball so maybe the early developement kits came with a C-Stick equiped controller, but the final controller will have it replaced by a trackball. King Dea also mentions a mic & secondary L & R triggers, neither of which Teddman could see so could also be possible.
So...what...it's a modified GCN controller? Maybe so. Maybe the Revolution isn't one magical thing, maybe it's a bunch of smaller things altogether. I'm also thinking that the revolutionary interface doesn't neccessarily mean just the controller...otherwise they'd stop saying interface and instead say controller. What if the console's interface in itself is revolutionary (ex: a console/mobile hybrid game machine) and/or maybe the revolution refers to exclussive graphical enhancements on the system like cube-mapping or how fast/cheap/easy it is to make games for. I'm thinking the "Revolution" itself is all of these things.
As far as Spak-Spang's comments on a new control stick/D-Pad solution, I've given alot of thought to this. Nintendo pioneered both and Miyamoto's recent comments about analog being difficult for some players and then he question's which one should be primary to the controller even. I'm hoping both are included, but I'm thinking that the D-Pad will be evolved and that (instead of setting it into a secondary possition like on the GCN controller) both the stick will be in primary possition to use for control depending on preference. This makes the controller look less busy, is accomendating to people who prefer one or the other and still offers backwords compatibility with GCN games as well as ports from other systems. How to advance the D-Pad though, hmmm? I've thought of making it more rounded and more pressure sensitive so it's almost as precise as an analog stick or even putting a small jogball in the center of it to give it a dual function of a stiff 8 dirrectional D-Pad plus the precision of a trackball.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 29, 2005, 11:03:25 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 29, 2005, 11:14:29 AM
I am not very fimilar with jog scrolling bars and such. And I am not quite sure elminating one device (the D-Pad) with one singular more complex device is the answer.
I really think Nintendo wants to drop the D-Pad. I think they want to go back to when it was a singular directional device on one side and buttons on the other. Unfortunately you just can't do that with today's 3D games. Even though doing that would simplify and make games easier to play, it would also render several games impossible to play.
So Nintendo is stuck with there design...limited in some measures.
I agree with you that I think the controller will be a heavily modified standard controller. But I think those modifications could be revolutionary.
Here is what I mean. Right now the only buttons that have any definate feeling are Gamecube's shoulder buttons (Dreamcasts shoulder buttons as well.) What if you enhanced that feeling even more to where gamers understood the amount of pressure applied to the buttons affected the games. These new triggers could basically be the pressure buttons mentioned...but they aren't a different input they are just stiff enough to apply varying degrees of pressure as comfortable as possible. All of a sudden you can have a driving game where the driver can feel where 30MPH is on the button and keep it at that speed. REVOLUTIONARY!!! Yet, doesn't change the controller at all.
Now Imagine applying that kind of control and precision into the Analog stick (or both analog sticks) This amount of control has never been achieved or attempted and you can actually feel the difference within controllers. Again the 2 best controllers for analog control are the N64 and Gamecube, but even those are not good. I want to be able to feel exactly how sharp I should be turning with holding the Analog stick in a single position. REVOLUTIONARY!!!!
Buttons should be changed much. Though a nice SNES layout with dimpled and raised buttons would be nice.
Shoulder Triggers are going to be needed as buttons 5 & 6 to make other games compatible.
Once again this also fits with the idea that these controllers will be easy to copy. Basically, any company could see the quality on the controller and go out and make there controllers equally as good.
Post by: ShyGuy on July 29, 2005, 11:38:46 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on July 29, 2005, 12:38:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Just throwing this out there, do you guys remember the SpaceOrb? It was an early attempt at 3D control for the PC.
wicked
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 29, 2005, 08:26:51 PM
I really wasn't talking about "scroll bars" although scroll wheels (like on a PC mouse) would be ideal for shoulder buttons. What I was talking about was changing the D-Pad and making it more suitible for todays games while still having that stiff/solid 8 dirrectional feel. I suggested two ways to change or evolve the D-Pad:
#1- Make it bigger/more rounded (like a big button) and make the whole thing pressure sensitive so it can be as precise as an analog stick while still having that digital flat feeling for certain games.
#2- Keep it the same (rather make a N64 sized D-Pad) and put a jogball in the middle of it. A jogball is a smaller, softer clickable trackball...I have one on my small SD camera and it's very sensitive (just slightly move your thumb over it and it moves the on-screen curse in that dirrection) and very precise. This is the better option for evolving the D-Pad 'cos it stays the same when you press it in the 8 dirrectional way, but if you merely rub your thumb over the jogball in the middle of it you get more precision control.
Miyamoto recently stated A) analog control was too hard for some players and B) he doesn't know which should be the central dirrectional control (the D-Pad or the analog stick). So, to me, if they're keeping both for true backwords compatibility and for ports then they have to do 2 things to coincide with Miyamoto's suggestions. They need evolve the D-Pad, so that players who prefer it over the analog stick can use it for today's games and secondly they need to make it to where both the stick and the D-Pad can be used primarily instead of one or the other being in a more out of place secondary possition.
As far as your suggestions go for a more advanced analog stick...I think what you're suggesting (a stick that can go around and in and out for spacial 3D control) would not be very durable or even practical. For instance, let's say a game uses this control scheme of not only going in different dirrections on the normal plane (like an anlog stick does today), but also spacially in and deeper into the controller then you're only asking for it to get stuck and for players to get frustrated when games that use it are going in & out instead of up & down. A clickable stick, cool...but a dirrectional pressure analog stick would be too much. Besides Miyamoto said some gamers can't fully "get" analog sticks and this is true...so why make it more complex.
Also true is that he stated that not only did some players not understand the idea of a pressure sensitive analog trigger (like on the GCN's controller), but that they themselves didn't make games that fully used it in gameplay. When I suggested pressure sensitive grips...I don't think they'll be buttons. I'm thinking that the controller's grips will be softer (like made of stressball material) and that in that "skin" there will be sensors that sense when they're being pressed in or not...there would be possibly dozens of small sensors throughout the grips skin and the tighter one grips the handles the more of these sensors are pressed and therefore more grip sensitivity is gauged. This could be used to make turns tighter, punches harder, wrestling grapples, attacks more intense...whatever, it would be it's own large button that people can fully understand better than analog triggers. "Just grip it tighter" is all you'll have to tell someone who wants to use it's functionality.
Also, when Miyamoto says it'll be easy to copy...I don't think we should take that word for word. I don't think Nintendo would be giving the competition such a heads-up...I think it's more of a tactic to throw them off as if to say "don't finnish your controller yet" and possibily set them back. This goes more for Sony than MS since they're the ones who're launching later and, like Nintendo, haven't shown their final controller. Let's say that my ideas (matched by Nintendo's own words, what Teddman saw/heard & what King Dea *may* know) are true...the Revolution won't be so easily copied 'cos the Revolution is not simply one magic thing...it's a bunch of lil' ones altogether.
Post by: MrMojoRising on July 30, 2005, 12:52:59 AM
I just want a better way to figure out which button is A from which button is B...I honestly don't even remember which one is which on the 64 controller. I really liked that about the GC controller...but I don't really like the idea of just having a little bump on one like the f and j on a keyboard.
As for revolutionary features, I'm thinking that it may be a bunch of little things like Dr.GAKMANx was saying. How well would a trackball work in place of the second analog stick? I think it would be nice just because it wouldn't constantly center back to zero when you're aiming in a FPS. I like the idea of gyros, especially for games like monkey ball and such...but I'm not convinced they could be used as precisely as some of you seem to. I think some sort of force feedback in the analog sticks would be really cool, but it seems like that's still a ways in the future. I don't think there is any practical way to get away from the analog stick and the d-pad both being on the controller...especially if you are to be able to play NES through N64 games.
So many questions, so few answers...damn you Nintendo!
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 30, 2005, 05:32:04 AM
That me says they didn't use the digital click feature well, which was the only new feature of the Gamecube.
I don't mind simplifying the controller I think its important to figure out the best means of controlling the games...but if Nintendo is desiring the simplify it too much and take away the ability to have analog control I will be disappointed.
I do agree Nintendo is playing games. I think each interview is hinting at the controller and give you clues without spilling the beans...and I think Nintendo already has the controller designed except for possible last minute details...
Oh and my analog stick idea wasn't changing the design or setup of the analog stick. Just the tightness of the controls. Something that has a little more "weight" and "resistance" to it. I want it to provide alittle more resistance as I push closer to the edges of the analog stick so I can feel where the stick and therefore have more precise control.
I think people don't grasp analog control because there isn't that resistance. When you push in a gas pedal there is noticable weight and resistance change as you press it in. Once you know your car you can feel about where 30MPH is on the pedal. That needs to be present with analog or it won't feel right.
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 30, 2005, 06:53:03 AM
-main control stick
-4 face buttons
-D-Pad
-secondary stick
-analog buttons with digital click
However, this doesn't mean that they have to remain the same. Some of these functions could be replaced/modified into more functional features that still work in playing old games. In fact, going by Teddman says the face buttons are changed and going by what King Dea says the secondary stick is replaced by a trackball...and both agree that this controller can be used to play GCN games. Teddman says a SNES diamond layout for the buttons though...which loses the GCN simplicity layout...or does it? I've theorized on this at other boards. If Nintendo goes back to the old SNES layout I think it's 'cos they wanna make it *look* normal, but they could contour/texturize each button to make them easily identifiable like the GCN layout is. Here's how:
A-convex with smooth surface, feels normal
B-concave with spiraling surface, feels like quicksand
X-flat with wavy texture, feels like liquidic gel
Y-soft with dotted bumps, feels like rubber
I've further thought about this in regards to GCN games. The "big A" is lost with this SNES layout 'cos all the buttons are the same size...this may feel out of place and looks out of place when playing GCN games with a GCN HUD on screen. So, to compensate, I figure a rounded raised surface can be around the A button to make it feel bigger, but actually look normal.
Spak-Spang...
I'm sorry I misunderstood your analog stick idea. I see nothing wrong with giving the stick more resistance I guess. Teddman, King Dea and (now, I've found) Reggie says GCN games can be playable with the Revolution's controller. Which is a releif 'cos it means that both the stick & D-Pad will be there...but Miyamoto's recent comments do suggest there will be changes as he said some people don't "get" the stick and he's debating aloud which is better, the stick or D-Pad for dirrectional control. Again, this suggests that the D-Pad may be evolved to be able to play today's games and that both the stick & D-Pad will be primary methods of control instead of one being offset to a secondary possition.
You wanna hear my theory? I haven't finnished it yet, but if what Teddman, Iwata, Miyamoto, King Dea & Reggie are all hinting at is true then I think the Revolution controller will:
-look simpler, less intimidating & less like a toy
-2 thumb possitions, not 4
-comfortable to hold (stressball material in the grips)
-normal button layout, contoured/texturized buttons so players can tell the difference between them
-2 additions more natural to non-gamers: tilt pak control & grip sensitive control
-2 additions more familiar to non-gamers: trackball in place of the C-Stick & clickable toggle wheels in place of the analog buttons
-more advanced "D-Button" more precise to play today's games while keeping the old 8 dirrectional feel for old games
-analog control stick & "D-Button" both in primary possition for dirrectional control
-built-in mic for audible control**
-more immersive force feedback offering not only the feeling of rumble, but also of pulsating, pumping, buzzing, throbbing, etc.*
-also for immersion is a heating/cooling sensory fan*
*These are more/less what King Dea said...I don't really trust him so much, but these features are possible I guess.
**Might be better to have a headset of some kind, but then the feature is sold seperatly which isn't as cool.
I think there could also be some other small features. I would like a simple built-in screen for settings, button configurations, feature calibration, wireless channel selection, the ability for a remote software power up and reset and maybe even for in-game stuff...otherwise there's gonna have to be some way to do these things in a less practical way. If there is a way for the system to go mobile then I think it'd be nice to have a mounting system on top of the controller so the player can mount the portable screen on the controller to play games on the go.
Post by: notic on July 30, 2005, 05:03:48 PM
Post by: ThePerm on July 30, 2005, 08:16:19 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on July 30, 2005, 08:39:02 PM
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 30, 2005, 08:45:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: notic
i think he did say GCN games
Who what now?
He didn't dirrectly say that the Revolution controller would be able to play GCN games, but by sandwiching the GCN games in with the NES, SNES, N64 & Revolution comments, that kinda seals it for me. I think the reason why GCN may be sorta mentioned as a sidenote is 'cos they wanna make it clear that the NES, SNES & N64 backword compatibility is 'cos they're downloadable...which the GCN games aren't downloaded, but instead played dirrectly from the disc for their backword compatibility.
Post by: notic on July 31, 2005, 01:16:12 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on July 31, 2005, 01:39:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: notic
i think he did say GCN games
Quote
Originally posted by: DrGAKMANx
Who what now?
Quote
Originally posted by: notic
no
Conversation of the year!
Post by: DrGAKMANx on July 31, 2005, 01:48:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: notic
no
Are you like the forum cut-up?
You said "I think he did say GCN games" and I'm like who...what plays GCN games, who are you talking to and who said it plays GCN games. So I try to clarify and you simply say "no". HA HA HA!
Post by: Spak-Spang on August 01, 2005, 05:09:04 AM
I like the textured button idea you have. I am still unsure about grip buttons, that to me is not a very natural way to play. I also don't see how you can have only 2 thumb spots and still have an analog stick and D-Pad. I can see using a trackball to move the C-Stick to a more natural and versatile place...but not the D-Pad. Maybe I just can't visualize it or imagine it properly.
Whatever the controller I will be excited to see what it becomes.
EDIT::
I just got a look at the IQUE controller. I love the design.
First, the D-Pad is a very different take on Nintendo's original design and it looks more comfortable, and looks very nice. The button layout is pretty cool too.
Post by: nemo_83 on August 01, 2005, 11:49:34 AM
Post by: DrGAKMANx on August 01, 2005, 12:19:48 PM
As for the grips...I'm not really saying they're buttons. More a "skin" of grip sensitive sensors over the handles. It may not seem practical to us as gamers, but to non-gamers I think they'll find grip sensitive control easy to understand and very natural. Have you ever seen early or non-gamers hold the controller and grip it tightly like as if it's going to help make them do more or go faster or whatnot. This goes hand in hand with early or non-gamers who move the whole controller in hopes of making Mario jump higher or making their F-Zero craft lean into a turn harder. Now...these two (grip & tilt) can be incorperated into controllers and I think when Iwata made the comment of a mother watching her child play watching him play get's her interested in trying it herself. Why? Because non-gamers can understand something like that better than memorizing buttons. Not saying buttons should be done away with at all, but that attracting non-gamers in with features like that is a start...follow that up with a comfy feel, a controller that isn't intimidating looking or complex and giving them other things they could better understand (like a PC toggle wheel or trackball) and you may have hooked yourself a new gamer. They'll pick up the buttons (especially if each is contoured/texturized differently) and dirrectional control as they go.
I'm also thinking up something else that is evolved form of the rumble pak. Basically, it's water displacement and movement inside the grips. Imagine feeling a pumping feeling like a racing heartbeat or a pulsating feeling like something crawling in your palms...they could use valves to swish the water around in that fasion. I'm just thinking aloud at this point, but this could be used with the suppossed heating/cooling system that King Dea said was in the controller.
Post by: nemo_83 on August 02, 2005, 02:33:19 PM
blurred pics
Post by: Nile Boogie on August 02, 2005, 02:52:39 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 02, 2005, 03:02:39 PM
Hint of Revolution's features?
Post by: nemo_83 on August 02, 2005, 07:18:53 PM
Post by: Obiyo on August 02, 2005, 08:14:54 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on August 02, 2005, 11:29:33 PM
Here is a new picture. like I said, touching is good, but feeling is better
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 03, 2005, 12:42:26 AM
Must be some new bumps in the tracks, CUZ THE TRAINWRECKS KEEP COMIN.
Post by: notic on August 03, 2005, 08:11:32 AM
Post by: wandering on August 03, 2005, 11:51:25 PM
"They can't get the controls down and fail at an easy game because the controls confused them. I have even tried to sit down and explain the controls...and with adults they finally get it after ALOT of practice, but younger children don't get the games at all.
I don't know what the solution is because Analog controls are the best friend of 3D games and one of the best innovations in gaming in my opinion."
Well, I think the solution is to replace the analog stick with something that retains the functionality but requires less effort.
I'm imagining an analog version of the Xbox's d-pad. Imagine a large, concave, analog 'pad'. Something that would have no visable 'stick' of any kind, and would remain level when pushed around.
It could even have advanced tactile feedback: imagine if the pad became loose and slippery when your characther is walking on ice, and tight when you're controlling a car.
Also, DRGAKMAN, I really like your texturized buttons idea. Though it still leaves the problem of how to tell the newbie gamer, intuitively, which button to press. WIth GameCube, you could just say 'push the large, green button'.
It would be somwhat awkward to say something like: 'push the button that feels like quicksand'.
Post by: Spak-Spang on August 04, 2005, 11:42:21 AM
The biggest problem with an Analog D-Pad is getting the variety of movement along the X and Y axises without a circular device. I just think the Analog Stick needs better resistance within the movement. Perhaps the stick actually gives more resistance as you push it forward...so that as you push it you feel the position. I know I have stated that several times and I am a broken record...but that is the only thing that seems to make sense. The Analog Buttons also need much more resistance, and should feel more like a Gas Pedal feels than like a button.
Post by: nemo_83 on August 04, 2005, 05:39:35 PM
Post by: wandering on August 15, 2005, 10:47:11 AM
Also, I agree with you that increasing the resistance on the analog stick would greatly help.
.......
In other news, I've decided to throw another controller design into the ring. Here ya go:
front
back
at night
cube mode
The buttons light up.
Each button can also throb with light, to tell the gamer which button to press (in tutorials and such).
The lights on the buttons can change to reflect the different button names on the various controllers that the revo can emuluate.
The thumb button, movement sitck, and 4 shoulder buttons have built-in rumble (to tell you when to press/use them)
The right hand controller has built-in gyro.
Post by: Zach on August 26, 2005, 07:16:09 PM
Post by: MysticGohan24 on August 26, 2005, 07:18:38 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on August 26, 2005, 07:52:00 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 26, 2005, 07:54:57 PM
Just wait, Iwata will be speaking at the keynote, then REGGIE will BUST THROUGH a brick wall (yes, nintendo will setup a brick wall just for that purpose) carrying a TV and a working RevoMegat0n on it. All the japanese people will be like "IYAAAAAAH! KOWAI-YO!" as REGGIE walks amongst the crowd, with everyone maintaining a 4m radius for fear of sudden movements and retaliatory name-taking.
[Iwata-san] YOU WILL SAY "WOW!"
Post by: ThePerm on September 04, 2005, 08:26:57 PM
basically you usae i t like 2 mouses...and you can join them together in the center for different games
Post by: KnowsNothing on September 04, 2005, 08:28:36 PM
Post by: ThePerm on September 04, 2005, 08:55:07 PM
a better picture
and i just realized where the thumbs go can have joysticks
Post by: KnowsNothing on September 04, 2005, 08:58:02 PM
Post by: ThePerm on September 05, 2005, 08:32:51 PM
http://theperm.tetrametrics.com/Images/iwata.jpg
Post by: Fro on September 07, 2005, 10:46:38 AM
http://www.gyration.com/us/tech/technology.htm. Both X and Y axis control. Tiny size, low power consumption, cheap pricepoint.
I've watched the videos on the site, and simple wrist movements will move the mouse cursor all the way across the screen. I'm sure there will be an option for the sensitivity to be changed, but you're not going to have to wave your arms around wildly.
I still think the dual gyros/splittable controller is the most likely concept. Analog Stick/D-Pad on the L controller with two triggers on top. Four button layout on the R Controller with two triggers on top. The functionality of both a controller and a mouse in the same unit (and much, much more). The ability for developers to create their own control layouts (i.e. dual welding in FPS, hold the sticks like a steering wheel for racing games, use the gyros as boxing gloves for Punch-Out, etc).
This is the only concept I've seen that 1) won't suck power like crazy, 2)will be truly revolutionary, 3) will be able to come in at a $30-$40 price point once Nintendo starts massproducing these suckers overseas somewhere. Keep in mind, they've had this tech for a few years.... I'm sure they've cocreated a custom gyro for Revolution and tested the crap out of it. This is not the same tech that is used in the GBA tilt sensors.
Post by: Fro on September 07, 2005, 11:00:12 AM
You get the gyro X/Y-axis movement, plus tilt forward/tilt back/tilt left/tilt right, which in theory would give you a Z-axis.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on September 07, 2005, 02:19:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Fro
Back to gyros. This is the company Nintendo invested in about four years ago.
http://www.gyration.com/us/tech/technology.htm. Both X and Y axis control. Tiny size, low power consumption, cheap pricepoint.
I've watched the videos on the site, and simple wrist movements will move the mouse cursor all the way across the screen. I'm sure there will be an option for the sensitivity to be changed, but you're not going to have to wave your arms around wildly.
I still think the dual gyros/splittable controller is the most likely concept. Analog Stick/D-Pad on the L controller with two triggers on top. Four button layout on the R Controller with two triggers on top. The functionality of both a controller and a mouse in the same unit (and much, much more). The ability for developers to create their own control layouts (i.e. dual welding in FPS, hold the sticks like a steering wheel for racing games, use the gyros as boxing gloves for Punch-Out, etc).
This is the only concept I've seen that 1) won't suck power like crazy, 2)will be truly revolutionary, 3) will be able to come in at a $30-$40 price point once Nintendo starts massproducing these suckers overseas somewhere. Keep in mind, they've had this tech for a few years.... I'm sure they've cocreated a custom gyro for Revolution and tested the crap out of it. This is not the same tech that is used in the GBA tilt sensors.
Welcome to the club....
The fact that Nintendo signed an agreement with gyration for an undisclosed amount, almost absolutely means that the technology is used in the controller itself. Ever since then, I thought about how Nintendo would incorporate it. I didn't think that merely putting it into a GC type of controller was enough to make it revolutionary, because that only made playing Super Monkey Ball and Kirby Tilt and Tumble more fun and intuitive. If gyros are truely the main function of the controller, they wouldn't assemble it in such a way to provide the least amount of functionality. They would, instead, try to achieve the maximum amount of funtionality.
A two-piece controller is obviously the most reasonable way in achieving maximum functionality. Take this picture for example HERE. It shows what a two-piece controller would look like. It has two analog sticks, a D-pad, 4 face buttons, 4 triggers (2 on each side), and maybe a squeezable grip (since it seems like a viable new feature to a controller). Also, imagine the two pieces joining together at the middle somehow, for games that don't require gyros, and what your left with is a very functional controller. A joystick on the R controller was placed there in case any game would of needed more options, or more likely, if a game were to be controlled one-handed. If this type of controller could be ambedextrous in nature, with maybe giving the D-pad and the secondary analog stick the ability to swivel around to the opposite side of each controller, then Nintendo would have something mighty on their hands. Something truly "Revolutionary."
As you mentioned in your post above Fro, a gyroscopic controller would be by far the most accurate directional device to date. It is far more accurate than an analog stick or even a mouse because it does something they both can't: move in the third dimension. The Z-plane has never been used so far in console gaming, strictly due to the past controllers' restrictiveness. This added third dimension would be almost as incredibly revolutionary as gaming graphics going from 2-D to 3-D. I'm not sure if it's possible, but sopposedly a gyroscopic controller can also apply force in any given direction. For example, if you get shot from the left, your controller would sort of jerk you to your right. Again, I'm not positive this is true, but it would be an incredible immersion element. This fact i'm almost positive is true, that is the gyroscopic controllers ability to resist change. As in, if you pull back the bow string on a bow and arrow, you can feel the resistance tighten the farther you pull back. This would indeed be a great way to immerse gamers as well, but it would have many other functionalities. Imagine today's analog sticks, the softer you push the stick in any given direction, usually the slower the charachter moves on screen. If the analog stick had more resistance, you would have more accuracy in just how fast you'd like your charachter to move. Not to say it would only improve something so trivial as charachter movement, but it would improve controlling everything in every game. Super Monkey Ball would be alot easier if the controllers had more resistance. Now imagine that fact with a gyroscopic controller. Feeling the controller resist you as you tilt it would allow for superb accuracy in lets say a flying game for example.
Again, think of all the possibilities. Remember playing your favorite Starcraft-Warcraft type of game and when you tried to click your air units while ground units resided close by, how you would accidently mix up which type of unit you wanted in your selection? I'm sure you got better at it, to the point where you had no trouble....but still, wasn't it at first annoying. Well with this controller, you can easily differentiate which troops you'd like to choose. Imagine the ground in that type of game being the plane X/Y (and any plane parrallel to it), with the plane perpindicular becoming Z (the height from the ground). To pick your air troops without selecting any of your ground troops, you'd move your controller upwards (to the appropriate height) and select the troops with a sort of "churning the butter" movement. The farther you move your hand away from your body, the farther the mouse/selection tool would travel into the horizon on screen. To select your ground troops, simple move your hand to a lower height and perform the same motion. To travel down the map, simply tilt the contoller in the direction you'd like the mouse to travel. You could even select troops that way, by making a circle by tilting the controller in a circle. The game may even allow you to make a square selection by holding down a button and moving your hand in a diagonal (thus making two points; enough information needed to make a square).
With all this talk about "bringing in non-gamers" Nintendo has kind of spooked the already present fan-base. This type of controller would provide the functionality for super-complex games that hardcore gamers would like to see, while allowing at the same time a simpler way to control games for those who've yet to play videogames. For example, we'd enjoy our more intuitive yet very complex FPS, while the non-gamers would enjoy playing a game like Super Monkey Ball. (PS. if you'd like to know just how complex a FPS can get with this controller other than dual-wielding and shooting behind you, just ask me) Many games that would take barely any amount of time to develop compared to say Zelda could become big hits with those non-core gamers. An Archery game that would literally use one button, would be an awesome game that while very fun would be very easy to get the hang of. There could be a REV version of Nintendogs that actually lets you feel the dog tug on the rope, and again, would only use one button for the entire game.
bAnyway, my point is: If gyration technology is to be used, even though there is a chance, it will most likely be used in a manner that doesn't involve a controller as we know it today. Games really wouldn't benefit from that type of gyration technology. If you've read kingdea's blog, you'll notice that in the "conference" that he supposedly went to, all gyration was used for was making a game charachter quickly roll in one direction. That isn't really revolutionary, niether is making Kirby roll by tiliting your controller. Emulating arm movements, among other things is revolutionary.
And if gyration isn't incorporated at all, what else could provide the same level of gaming benefits while having a cheap price point and at the same time, low power consumption?
Post by: ThePerm on September 07, 2005, 05:19:27 PM
qweasd controll philosophy and you have the most customizable controller ever
Post by: ThePerm on September 07, 2005, 05:22:56 PM
lol
some vibrator looking thing patent by nintendo
and it spells love nintendo.....
Post by: Don'tHate742 on September 07, 2005, 07:21:56 PM
Maybe I'm just guloble
Post by: King of Twitch on September 07, 2005, 08:08:42 PM
