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Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: KDR_11k on July 01, 2005, 09:28:13 PM

Title: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 01, 2005, 09:28:13 PM: Article

Linking to Slashdot because the site that posted the article removed it again and Slashdot has the Google cache link.

What the article said was that they've benchmarked the X360 and PS3 CPUs and found they were only twice as fast as the XBox. Also, they found that the RSX chip in the PS3 (the GPU) cannot handle 1080i properly, probably fillrate related.

Note: These tests were done with the beta (current "final") hardware, not the alpha kits.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: ThePerm on July 01, 2005, 10:00:24 PM: perrin kapplan was right!
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: stevey on July 02, 2005, 05:06:23 AM: So dose this mean that the rev more powerful than ps3 and 360 because nintendo said that it's 3 times as powerful as the cube and nintendo never lies. and who didn't know that that sony was bull sh!ting the 30 times part.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 02, 2005, 05:14:05 AM: I think it just goes to prove that technology isn't jumping that fast. Seriously 30X times is stupid. The Xbox360 being 5X as powerful as the Xbox is believable...and I am sure the hardware components are that....perhaps they just don't mesh well together, or work perfectly in sync.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nickmitch on July 02, 2005, 07:42:04 AM: Doesn't Sony have time to fix theirs?
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: stevey on July 02, 2005, 08:48:58 AM: "Doesn't Sony have time to fix theirs? "

It's not broke. It just that sony know they can make up lie like "it's more power than god" and get away with it.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: OptimusPrime on July 02, 2005, 10:47:59 AM: I read the article and all i can say is that if Nintendo uses a 1 G5 but doesn't strip it of all the good parts, streamline it for better game-processing, add in a a GPU thats as powerfull as the X360's one and add a PPU they would kick X360's and PS3's ass combined.
Problem is nobody would believe it except some techheads who have done some benchmarks.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: BigJim on July 02, 2005, 11:40:33 AM: I imagine most of us would like a system that doesn't cost $400. A G5 wouldn't work for a reasonable price point. But yeah, it would rip the other systems a new one.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 02, 2005, 09:35:23 PM: Optimus: Not necessarily. What matters is how much graphics you can easily archieve, MS claims you can get a 5-10 fold performance increase by "properly optimizing" your software for the hardwarer but it's anyone's guess how much that'll add to the cost of games. If N uses a "weaker" system but one that's easier to use their graphics will look better because few can be bothered with putting in so much extra effort. Kinda like the XBox, all power available from the beginning but no improvements over the course of the generation.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Galford on July 02, 2005, 10:38:55 PM: I guess Anandtech has pulled the article. I wonder why???
However, Ars-Technica has an article which I can't help but to agree with...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050629-5054.html
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 03, 2005, 07:49:56 AM: What he forgot was management. The coders might at some point be willing to spend twice as much time writing the same amount of code to run that quick but management wants everything done, yesterday. I assume it requires much more thought to write something heavily optimized than something "clean". When the coders are overworked as the deadline arrives, their ability to think goes down rapidly. More and more errors. And since they already take so long to reach basic functionality proper testing might not fit into the budget so the game goes out to distributors after minimal testing.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nickmitch on July 03, 2005, 10:08:21 AM: Well better graphics came later this gen so why not the same for next gen? As long as the initial titles look better than this gen's titles and the latter titles look better than initial ones then everything will be fine. But that's if and only if cost isn't too high.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on July 03, 2005, 12:54:51 PM: OH SWEET JESUS YES!

Finnaly something to shut up the PS3 fans raving about the cell!
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 03, 2005, 04:39:09 PM: Nintendo should not exceed two cores. They could get by with one core along with a PPU, but two cores and a PPU will sound better.

Nintendo will be able to pull better frame rates and possible polygon performance by not going with HD.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Galford on July 03, 2005, 09:02:33 PM: "Time is money", that is true KDR.

One reason the PSX won against the Saturn was is was easy to code for. During the mid-ninties some programming houses were having a hard time transition themselves to 3D programming and when time became money, many of these houses dropped the Saturn and went exclusive PSX or PSX/N64.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 04, 2005, 02:31:27 AM: Well, the Saturn was also pretty weak at 3d but you're right, difficult architectures->costier development->less support.

Nemo: I doubt that. A single core would make much more sense since you could get a fairly big chip for that and have all the extras that make development easier. A PPU, maybe. But with a PPU there's really no need for a second core as long as you have al the basic chips, i.e. sound chip, network chip, etc. The PPU will take the bulk of the CPU load, the CPU won't have that much to do anymore. Unfortunately Agaeia is pricing themselves right out of the market.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 04, 2005, 05:51:37 PM: I would think developers would like it better if the REV had fewer more efficient cores than 360 and PS3. The PPU and maybe an AIPU would help such a single core processor do much more than the competitions' CPUs.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 05, 2005, 12:07:51 AM: PPUs are to expensive at the moment and AIPUs don't exist. Just make it a single CPU with a good floating point unit
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nemo_83 on July 06, 2005, 08:58:09 AM: They will need a PPU for their controller if it uses gyros or something even further entrenched in technolust.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 06, 2005, 09:45:27 AM: Why would a PPU be needed for Controllers with Gyros? A Gyros should just submit signals to the CPU to process much like an analog controler does, however it has more signals to read and interpret...or am I missing something?

I really don't think these stories are really that bad. What they say is the new CPUs are complex. They are very powerful, but to get all that you can out of them you must dedicate yourself to the code.

After the first few years the code will be easier to write because programmers will know their way around the hardware...until then we will still get software with superior graphics and functionality.

Also, anything they write about the Xbox 360 and PS3 may also equally apply to the Revolution...all we know is Nintendo is trying to prevent added development difficulties and costs, but we don't know if they succeeded.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: couchmonkey on July 06, 2005, 01:05:26 PM: I'm glad to see someone cutting through the Microsoft/Sony bull about performance of their systems, but ultimately benchmarks and whatnot don't mean much to me. I'm more interested in the final product, how does it play? What does it look like? I do think that the graphics on 360 and PS3 will live up to a lot of people's expectations, but I admit it's beginning to sound a little iffy.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 07, 2005, 09:04:32 AM: Well, let's be realistic, as long as all you do is games this CPU design might work. Loadsa vector operations plus a little all purpose. BUT! Sony is trying to position the PS3 as a machine for more than games, going as far as offering an OS for it and perhaps some productivity apps. THAT is stupid. Productivity apps require everything in your processor and they aren't written with in-order processors in mind. They are heavy on branching logic and require a lot of power for that, unlike games which put most of their power into physics and maybe a little AI. Of course optimizing the vector units for physics would have been a smart move but that doesn't make a good buzzword. What I'm really worried about is Microsoft's approach, three all-purpose cores with weak vector units is pretty stupid, games don't need that much all purpose power and going multiprocessor will just complicate development. With the Cell you can at least know ahead of time which parts of your code have to multithread. Let's hope their threading scheduler is up to snuff, would suck if it choked on the number of entities a normal game throws at it .

Either way, MS loses and Sony once again is talking crap with their supercomputer claims. Well, it IS a supercomputer as long as all you want to do is vector processing. If there's more you're screwed.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Draygaia on July 07, 2005, 09:11:06 AM: Can you imagine taking three weeks on one character? Think about it. What if that also included the crunching time.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 07, 2005, 09:23:20 PM: That's not the fault of the CPU, blame normalmapping for it.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Cube_King on August 03, 2005, 02:02:35 AM: Wow. While I never expected the consoles to live up to their technical hype it's suprising how weak and disappointing the CPUs are. Im no tech-head but the '360's got f***en THREE 3.0 Ghz processors o.O!! How the hell did that end up being equivalent to only 2x the power of the Xbox 733mhz chip....
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Galford on August 03, 2005, 05:31:07 PM: I think it's gonna come down to what developers do with those cores, and how creative they can get with the power available to them.

I think if used properly, the Xenon could do thing in terms of AI that Cell isn't going to touch.

Cell I think will be the same way, but in term of physics.

Here's one thing that hasn't been mentioned too much, where's the sound chip for the PS3?
While MS has quitely stated that the XBox360 will have dedicated sound hardware, Sony has made said much about it's sound setup.

I wonder if the rumors about Sony using Cell for sound processing are true?
If that's the case, it will be the first time since the N64, a console lacked a dedicated sound chip.

Ironicly, the SPEs in Cell are very DSP like in nature.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Cube_King on August 03, 2005, 06:50:57 PM: I heard somewhere that the 360 doesn't have a sound card either and that one of it's CPU's thread (or whatever) will handle all the sound and music for the machine. I don't know if that's a fact though.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: vudu on August 04, 2005, 09:11:44 AM: Here's an interesting article: "Your Existing Code? Throw it Away"

Gabe Newell (Valve Software) says:
Quote
Technologically, I think every game developer should be terrified of the next generation of processors. Your existing code, you can just throw it away. It's not going to be helpful in creating next generation game titles. Most of the problems of getting these systems running on these multicore processors are not solved. They are doctoral theses, not known implementation problems. So it's not even clear that over the lifespan of these next generation systems that they will be solved problems. The amount of time it takes to get a good multicore engine running, the Xbox 360 might not even be on the market any longer. That should scare the crap out of everybody. If writing in-order code [in terms of difficulty] is a one and writing out-of-order code is a four, then writing multicore code is a 10.

I'm not sure what some of that stuff means, but I understand that the basic jist is way too much effort is going to need to be put into a game to be worthwhile.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Galford on August 04, 2005, 05:51:58 PM: He basicly says what many people already here knew, that next-generation cpus are going to a pain in the butt to program.

Many programmers will have throw out what they currently know about single-threaded programming and think in a vastly new way.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nemo_83 on August 04, 2005, 06:08:29 PM: I talked to a programmer and he said the reason that the console manufacturers are going with multiple cores is because, "it is a lot cheaper to put two 2.5 GHz chips into a machine than it is to put in a single 3.5 GHz chip."

But it costs the developer more money. The console makers are passing the debt on to third parties, and third parties will pass it on to us who will not buy their seventy dollar remake of Tony Hawk.

Next gen graphics will do more harm than good. We need a revolution.

Edit: oh yeah, I've been signified by Vudu.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: vudu on August 05, 2005, 09:13:01 AM: Quote
Edit: oh yeah, I've been signified by Vudu.
Yes you were. But Ian Sane said something today that was just so funny I had to replace you. Sorry.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nemo_83 on August 05, 2005, 04:23:33 PM: Quote
Originally posted by: vudu
Quote
Edit: oh yeah, I've been signified by Vudu.
Yes you were. But Ian Sane said something today that was just so funny I had to replace you. Sorry.

what is the context of that quote? he sounds pissed.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KnowsNothing on August 05, 2005, 04:27:28 PM: It was mentioned that some people may find mice with two buttons complicated.

Left or right?
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Renny on August 05, 2005, 04:31:02 PM: Your other left. No, the other one.
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: stevey on August 06, 2005, 04:03:26 AM: "The amount of time it takes to get a good multicore engine running, the Xbox 360 might not even be on the market any longer. That should scare the crap out of everybody. If writing in-order code [in terms of difficulty] is a one and writing out-of-order code is a four, then writing multicore code is a 10."

Dosen't the rev have single core? So this might mean that everyone going to turn to the rev because they cant make game for any other system.and then sony and ms will die a horrible horrible painful death
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on August 06, 2005, 07:31:35 AM: If writing in-order code [in terms of difficulty] is a one and writing out-of-order code is a four, then writing multicore code is a 10.

Either he is confused or he means it's easy as f-. Out of order code sounds like he means code for out-of-order-Execution, definitely easier than writing optimized code for in-order systems.

Anyway, as the PS3 troll on Slashdot would say, "Valve is a bunch of peecee fanboys that think just because they can crap together a pile of code with their DirectX SDKs they're authorities on console development". Seeing what a desaster the code for HL1 and 2 seems to be I tend to agree, Valve doesn't strike me as a company capable of adapting to "uncommon" (read: embedded) architectures. They have zero console experience, outside of x86 development in-order cores and even multithreading are part of everyday work. Seasoned console developers are apparently already used to in-order code, multithreading might not be solved yet but I'd be damned if it won't be soon. Never mind you're not really working on a multicore CPU on the PS3, just one CPU with lotsa helper units.

Embedded systems and multithreading are what separates a self-taught coder from a computer scientist. Sounds like there'll be even less unorganized garage development next round.

Stevey: I thought we agreed on "we know nothing about Rev specs"?
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: Galford on August 06, 2005, 07:12:40 PM: Are you the same KDR that posts on Slashdot???
Just wondering...

Here's another article about the Cell, kinda technical...
http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT072405191325

I love how they compare Cell to Itanium...
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: KDR_11k on August 06, 2005, 09:35:19 PM: I think I'm the only guy going by the name of "KDR_11k" on the whole internet.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: vudu on August 08, 2005, 09:33:47 AM: Quote
what is the context of that quote? he sounds pissed.
It comes from this thread: Is the RevOlution based of the Mac Mini and if so ...The full quote is
Quote
"For new users that's a BIG deal, the second button psyches them out and they sit there all day asking 'left click or right click?' This way they can become comfortable with a one button system and be introduced to the idea of multiple buttons later, when they're ready."
Oh God. Do these same people have difficulty with driving a car? Left pedal for brake or right pedal? Oh no this car has a THIRD pedal. I'm f*cked. There comes a point where it's just "if you can't get this, f*ck off".
Title: RE: Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nickmitch on August 08, 2005, 06:43:28 PM: I wonder if it'll ever stop being funny.
Title: RE:Next gen CPUs suck.
Post by: nemo_83 on August 13, 2005, 03:02:45 PM: He does have a point. And it is pretty funny. But I think the satin slang is also pretty funny.