Post by: Gamebasher on June 29, 2005, 05:46:52 PM
See, I look upon myself as an avid gamer who likes to play the best games available with great story, great graphics and great gameplay. Great entertainment. But sometimes, more often than I would like, games that I play wind up becoming so annoying to play through that they go from being entertainment to become... harassment!
Yes, many times I should like to give the developers a telling IN CAPITOL LETTERS after going through another frustrating gaming session. I really do not look upon games as a kind of tribulation, where I have to go through hell in order to make it to the end and see victory. But they become it many times. Why?
Because of inherent problems in the very design of the interface between me and the gameworld: the 3D controller!
I have experienced problems with gamecontrol in a number of games over the years. On Nintendo 64 it was really starting, because of the center position of the analogue stick on the three pronged controller. This meant I got cramps in my hands during extended play, since I could only comfortable hold the joypad if I stretched my thumb to the 2. prong on the controller. I really never thought that one could properly control Mario, for instance, holding the N64 joypad differently. I think that nomatter how you held it, the cramps would eventually set in sooner or later.
While I admit that the Nintendo 64 controller was innovative, it could have been designed better to eliminate the handcramps. Another problem was handsweat. Sometimes I died in a critical moment on a level, because my hand slipped entirely out of grip since I was sweating too much in the hands and NOT noticing so for reasons on intense concentration. A rubbery finish on the sides, and on top of the official controllers thumb pad, could have solved that problem. But such problems are small, when compared to the biggest problem which I have faced with the current 3D controllers on the market: the lack of precise aiming. I should of course include that I play Shooter/FPS games now and then, and it is here that I experience the biggest problems.
There are so many shooters on the market these days, and they all require precise aiming to actually give you the feeling that you aim for real and shoot! Why didn´t Nintendo think of that? How could they be so narrow minded and design a controller (which everyone has copied since, meaning that it is the standard of 3D control overall) with Mario 64 specifically in mind? That is only ONE game, for crying out loud? It spells madness to tailor a controller to one game, one game category (Platform), when there is so many OTHER games categories coming right up afterwards and which DO NOT work properly with that type of controller!! All the PC Gamers I talk to, told me they will NOT ever play a shooter on a console simply because they cannot hit anything properly with the current controllers!! One guy I spoke to had bought an XBOX and he sold it immediately once he discovered how difficult it was to aim with the control stick! Now he ONLY plays PC games where he can use a mouse. This is mainly what I get to hear everywhere I talk to people about games.
However, the lack of precise aiming was my biggest ever problem in Resident Evil 4. This game is not merely a Shooter, but as much an RPG and one of the best such RPG´s in recent memory. But in my opinion it´s value is compromised by the problem with the interface.
I got insanely annoyed when facing many of the bosses and saw myself dying 10-15 times in a row on EASY setting, because I either couldn´t steer the darn laser sight properly with the fiddly control stick and for instance hit the bosses on the specific places on their bodies, where Plagas were growing, in time before they got to me or couldn´t react quickly enough at the many quicktime events where I am required to "suddenly" blazingly fast respond in a splitsecond to avoid getting hit by a rock or a huge monster or a dumb Marine who look like Rambo´s forgotten brother. It was especially grim in the shooting minigames, where I was unable to get all the bottlecaps simply because I could not HIT the damn target properly (i.e. where Ashley was positioned inbetween without also hitting her repeadetly). In the game with the female agent, I had to give up at the last boss because I could not hit him properly, thus dying all the time, until I gave up, realizing that for me it was impossible to give him the Hasta La Vista Baby-blow at the end because I could not react like I wanted to: just plain AIM and SHOOT and HIT! It was more like TRYING to aim and MISS THE SHOT and therefore NOT hit! Until I broke a controller in utter frustration!
While I could get used to the quicktime events, I could never get used to the aforementioned problem of aiming. Because the current 3D controllers are not suited for aiming well, because of the elevation of the round thumbpad on top of the stick itself, sitting on top of the stick on its underside.
Said elevation creates a slight delay inbetween the moment you move it in any direction and until it "reacts". I really don´t know of any other way to express the way I experience that problem. But there you have it. It´s just too much to have to sit and fiddle with aiming back and forth like a drunken idiot, when really this should be FAST, DIRECT, SIMPLE! It isn´t so in that game (and many others), because the control is not suited for it. If I am going up against those types of monsters in that world of RE4, I want to respond quickly and eloquently like a good field agent would for real, NOT like I am some amateur out to get killed 20 times before I get started. To feel that I cannot respond like I should in lifethreatening situations in the game, because the interface between ME and the GAMEWORLD is TOO PRIMITIVE, is the cause for great frustration. And that is what I mean when I say that (game-) entertainment becomes (game-) harassment!
So I think that a great game such as Resident Evil 4 should have been made differently, so that the frustration stemming from lack of precise aiming would have been eliminated. I had that same problem with Zelda: OOT and MM some times. They did something with the controls in Mario Golf, which I think could help Capcom to get ideas for giving a better control of aiming in Resident Evil 5.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 29, 2005, 06:29:25 PM
I also don't see why you're having so much trouble with RE4's aiming system. If you can follow the red laser path and see that you don't have a "bead" on your target, you should be able decide if you're too far up/down/left/right, and correct your aim accordingly.
I had little trouble with the end of Assignment Hot Chick. I hardly play PC shooters (only the tactical shooters from the era where the Tom Clancy name actually meant decent games), and Perfect Dark is the only console shooter I like.
My friend, she's not an uberly-experienced hardcore gamer like many of us here. RE4 was the closest thing she's ever played to an FPS, and she had little trouble on Normal difficulty. And she got most, if not all the bottlecaps.
Really, is there something wrong with your controller?
Post by: Mario on June 29, 2005, 06:29:53 PM
I have a different problem with realistic games in general because i'm short sighted, and I only wear glasses when looking at my tv screen, so I notice details in games that I don't notice in real life, because in real life these things are just blurring things in the background, in games they are often IN YOUR FACE features, it just makes a lot of things look weird to me.
Why are you complaining about Nintendo's controllers/analog sticks? The placement of the analog sticks on the PSX/PS2 in my opinion are MUCH worse, but then i'm talking from a comfort perspective, I have no idea what you're on about. =P
Wait.. you ARE aware of the proper way to hold an N64 controller aren't you? You shouldn't need to move your thumb over.
Post by: Gamebasher on June 29, 2005, 09:31:56 PM
Like I said, I cannot keep the laser pointer still during aiming, meaning that it jumps up and down in little jerks while I try to aim which is particularly problematic when aiming at something which is inbetween other objects you aren´t supposed to hit (for instance Ashley in the shooting mini games). Thus crucial time is used to get it to be still and get the laserpointer over on the target and fire. That cost me too many bottle caps.
The tallness of the stick causes it, and this is never the problem with a mouse which is "at the base of everything" so to speak and therefore aims smoothly and accurately because it can follow the surface of a steady surface and not hover "up in the air" somewhere like the stick does as it is high above "the ground". It really is quite simple to see, once you understand what I mean. Even if you yourselves don´t experience that problem.
From the small target group I asked, I found that they represent both console gamers and PC gamers, and I thus conclude that there are some who can use the analogue control stick for aiming and some who can´t. It seems that it is a very divided set of two groups. But alone the fact that some cannot means that there is a problem.
Why? Because if some just plain hates the current type of standard console analogue controller for reasons explained, it automaticaly means they will jump ship to play on PC´s (and so they do, I hear), and that is not good music in, say, Nintendo´s ears! They want to increase the marketshare of videogaming, and have already shown a new method of control with the DS, so I cannot be as far off as you think. In fact, I think even Nintendo could understand my criticism. If a big survey was made to find how many people have trouble with the analogue controller, and how many would like a new design, I am sure it would be seen that many would want a new type of "all-access" controller so that any TYPE of gamer could be happy with both the games and GAME CONTROLLER on consoles.
And, YES, Mario, I DO know how to hold an N64 controller!
Post by: ThePerm on June 29, 2005, 09:59:20 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 29, 2005, 11:54:49 PM
I'll assume you have a fully-functional controller, with an analog stick that has a sufficiently small neutral-zone. Forgive what sounds like a lecture but I gotta make a frame of reference somehow.
In RE4's gunplay, one of Leon's natural characteristics is he does not sit completely still while aiming. If we hold R-trigger out the blue, he raises his weapon, slightly SLIGHTLY twitching (affecting long-distance shots), but still maintains a good shot for point-blank range. In fact, he's more steady at "drawing a straight line" with the aiming laser than by leaving the control stick in the neutral position. This should already by apparent, and I hope this isn't the problem you're talking about, since it's relatively easy to adjust for. Next...
How the analog stick translates into motion in aiming scenarios... How far you move the analog stick away from its neutral postion determines the rate at which Leon turns. If the stick is moved *slightly* to the right, Leon turns *slowly* to the right. If the stick is moved to the far right position, Leon turns to the rightly quickly (as much as the game allows). Analog aiming determines rates of movement, while PC mouse aiming is point-to-point. Knowing this, [with the analog stick] you should be able to aim, swing your laser over, and stop at the target. Physically, you moved the analog stick away from neutral, then either 1) as soon as the laser met the target, you quickly returned to the neutral position to prevent further turning, giving you a steady position on the target... 2) you slowed down your turning by gradually returning the stick to neutral, finally stopping on neutral when you meet the target. Either way, recognizing these turning rates is important for "stopping at the right spot." It's not really "push a little, move a little," it's "push a little, move slowly" -- like a gas pedal. [and once you have a bead on the target, hesitating too long will invite Leon's twitching to mess you up]
If you're constantly overshooting your target (missing by stopping your aim short of, or past the target), then it sounds to me like you're moving the analog stick too far/fast/much, and haven't come to grips with "finer" movement as I attempted to explain above. That or your controller's gone stoopid.
If your analog stick IS worn out, and you have a large "dead" neutral zone, then that means you'd have to move the stick further away from the absolute center for the smallest degrees of movement to register. This also means your extreme positions are pushed further away, making "far left" act like "medium left" (or not do a damn thing), for example. Obviously that will hinder your finer aiming adjustments with Leon.
This is me playing the RE4 demo last summer. If your aim's AT LEAST this steady, then you should've had few problems by the end of the game. If NOT, then you've gotta do some re-evaluating. Just trying to help out.
http://ssv.jaccinc.com/avi_dl/shoot.avi
Post by: vudu on June 30, 2005, 08:52:49 AM
QuoteTo expand on what Pro666 said, have you tried buying/using a stock for the guns that have one (i.e. Red9 & TMP)? It makes your aim much more steady.
In RE4's gunplay, one of Leon's natural characteristics is he does not sit completely still while aiming. If we hold R-trigger out the blue, he raises his weapon, slightly SLIGHTLY twitching (affecting long-distance shots), but still maintains a good shot for point-blank range.
Post by: Gamebasher on July 01, 2005, 11:34:04 AM
"Either way, recognizing these turning rates is important for "stopping at the right spot." It's not really "push a little, move a little," it's "push a little, move slowly" -- like a gas pedal. [and once you have a bead on the target, hesitating too long will invite Leon's twitching to mess you up]"
I did try the push a little, move slowly you explain to me. And actually it worked if I did it that way! I understand exactly what you mean, when you explain the mechanics of movement with the analogue. But I didn´t like to do it that way (push a little, move slowly). And I guess that is where the whole problem lies then. What I prefer doing instead, is not possible in that game: I want to quickly and decisively move the laserpointer over on the targets and shoot. I cannot make room for an aiming method which requires me to "glide" the laserpointer over on the target, here in particular not while being in the shooting galleries where things move so fast all the time! That really affects me psychologically. I guess I simply do it (move the weapon) in the way I would if I were in a real shooting gallery - something which is not comfortable for me to do through the analogue controller type of interface. So therefore I will probably have to resort to playing such games with a mouse, in order to be satisfied! But thanks for your explanation anyway. I will take a look at the link you included, and give you my impression. Just bought Timesplitters 3, and I am looking forward to playing it a lot. Maybe I will find the aiming easier there.
And VUDU: Yes, I did buy the stock for the TMP, but I do not recall any other weapons where I could buy that shot stabilizer!
Post by: Artimus on July 02, 2005, 09:34:05 AM
Post by: Shecky on July 04, 2005, 05:07:36 AM
Visual Aids to the rescue....
The way I hold it normaly
The way Gamebasher is describing
Another alt I've witnessed
Post by: KDR_11k on July 04, 2005, 07:57:30 AM
Post by: nickmitch on July 04, 2005, 01:22:48 PM
Post by: stevey on July 04, 2005, 01:37:24 PM
Not everyone has a nasa super computer to play pc game.
Post by: Shecky on July 04, 2005, 02:47:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
What's the difference between 1 and 3?
Wrists... 3 was supposidly more relaxing for the wrists, but I could never get the hang of playing like that. I was used to 1 and would just revert to it without thinking.
If your holding 3 right there should be no bends in your wrists.
Post by: nickmitch on July 04, 2005, 03:30:39 PM
Post by: Artimus on July 04, 2005, 05:34:50 PM
Post by: stevey on July 04, 2005, 06:10:36 PM
Post by: nickmitch on July 04, 2005, 07:10:59 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 05, 2005, 12:13:48 AM
Um, the NASA recently upgraded to 486s. They are always 10 years behind when it comes to computers because they want to make sure the stuff works perfectly and rocket science doesn't need as much power as MS Office.
Battlefield 2 runs even on the comp my dad has and he uses mostly hand-me-down parts I don't need anymore. Noone's demanding he play Doom 3, there are tons of less demanding games out there, many available for a tenner. OTOH if he has a Mac I pity him.
Post by: stevey on July 05, 2005, 04:15:14 AM
Post by: Dirk Temporo on July 05, 2005, 06:44:10 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 05, 2005, 09:59:42 AM
Oh, and don't forget mods which allow you to get hundreds of hours out of a 50$ game without replaying once.
Sure, PC games tend to be a bit samey if you only look at retail shelves but if you try searching for indy games on the web you'll find more innovative games than you can shake a stick at.
By the way, Gunroar is out.
Post by: Gamebasher on July 05, 2005, 10:46:15 AM
Yes, you got that complete right.
I want absolute control, and the console FPS don´t offer that. I guess my acclimatization to console shooters made me unable to properly save up for a big powerfull PC which can run more demanding games with "total control". But now that you´ve mentioned it, I will wait for the RVN (my abbreviation)/Revolution and see if they do indeed give us a better controller or simply forget about laying shooters on consoles and by a PC!
Post by: KDR_11k on July 05, 2005, 10:04:11 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on July 06, 2005, 07:33:05 PM
The REV controller should feature some new things; maybe gyros, haptic analog thumb sticks, face wheels.
Controllers definately need to be simplified as far as finger functions go. The functions we have on the controller should each earn their presence by being completly unique from the next function on the controller. Rather than have two analog sticks and two sets of four face buttons; the controller could be streamlined. One thing of each. An analog stick, a trackball, a face wheel, and a dpad (or face buttons, maybe six).
With a face wheel or any scroll wheel you could reload a gun by revolving the disk.
Post by: stevey on July 07, 2005, 03:25:14 AM
No that wont help nintendo because it has no good uses but to make stupid mac fan happy and be make it hard for nongamers to get into.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 07, 2005, 09:08:44 AM
A wheel takes up a LOT of space, sure that space wouldn't be better spent for other features?
Post by: nickmitch on July 07, 2005, 02:57:04 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 07, 2005, 09:27:01 PM
Post by: Gamebasher on July 09, 2005, 09:54:02 AM
Nemo83 has completely understood what I meant, when I wrote about the inherent problems with the current types of console controllers. I really fel we need a revolution in terms of interface, and think we will indeed get just that come RVN announcement from Nintendo.
And Shecky: thanks for the nice photo additions! Still, I really can?t understand how you guys can hold it the way you do. Also, I only got the cramps after hours of gameplay. If I ever held it like you guys do, I would be unable to feel in solid control of Mario or Link (or whomever, whatever was controlling).
Post by: KDR_11k on July 10, 2005, 02:14:03 AM
Though a local store might even have cheap complete systems, for example the store I regularly buy my stuff from offers pretty good base systems for 500 or even 190 if you want to throw a few upgrades at it (graphics card, another 512MB of RAM, 100 for the graphics card, 40 for the RAM) and a few in between, some of which need cheap upgrades to be effective gaming rigs. 19" CRT for 100 (LCDs cost more and deliver less, a CRT, especially a 19" one delivers much better resolution, no blurring and better colors). Plug in your sound system. Add maybe 10 minimum for mouse/keyboard, depending on whether you want the basic versions or ome more expensive stuff and you're good to go.
Your local prices might go up by 80 for the PC because MS pressures retailers into selling no PC without Windows (actually without OS but few are smart enough to bundle Linux or FreeDOS), make sure they don't want to throw some office package in there, it sounds like a deal but you can get free software instead that only lacks the features you'll never need anyway and you always pay for that bundled software. All you need is Windows itself (since you're a gamer I won't try to sell you the more esoteric solution of "Linux+Cedega" that doesn't work with many games), no extras. And dont accept "repair CDs" or crap like that, insist on a full version of Windows, anything else means trouble. Dell will force a much bigger bundle on you by default and preconfigure your PC in a way that will make your games run much worse than they could.
All in all that sounds confusing but the result is much cheaper and you have much more control over it. You know who built it, you know what's in there and you know that nothing you don't want is in there (well, except for Windows' "extra functionality" like intalling random viri from the internet but Dell won't remove that either). It's really not difficult, most of the difficulty came from jumper setting and stuff back then, nowadays it's pretty much "plug everything together, power on".
And drop the "RVN" label, "RV" and "RN" are internal chip codenames by ATI, RV being a budget Radeon and RN the rumored name of the Hollywood chip. Of course with numbers appended, e.g. RV200 (Radeon 7200).
Post by: Gamebasher on July 11, 2005, 04:24:08 AM
So I guess I will just have to go and get another solution instead. I did know that the small shops cann help me save a lot of money, but don´t know which ones I can trust.
As regards the true meaning of the RVN-abbreviation I came up with, I am not a computer expert, and so I have no way of knowing the things you know. I just wanted to invent another designation (alike GCN: GameCube Nintendo), since I am tired of the name "Revolution", which is a pain in the neck for the reason that the name implies something great, but we don´t get to know nothing about it other than that and that sucks! It´s like knowing something truly revolutionary comes out and you are dying to see it, feel it, experience it, but all you got is that name which they put on it. So through an abbreviation I find it less annoying.
Professional 666: THANKS for the video! I see that you have no trouble hitting targets in RE4!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 11, 2005, 12:59:49 PM
All of that is fine and dandy until game makers like EA come along (*barf* Agent Under Fire *barf*) and gives you a shooter where all the aiming schemes force you to use the RIGHT ANALOG STICK INSTEAD OF THE LEFT ANALOG STICK I'VE BEEN USING FOR AN ENTIRE GENERATION. Such a change is counter-intuitive to the point it makes me bash my head against the wall.
Post by: nickmitch on July 11, 2005, 03:59:14 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 11, 2005, 04:08:14 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 12, 2005, 01:16:58 AM
Post by: Gamebasher on July 12, 2005, 05:53:41 AM
Post by: stevey on July 12, 2005, 03:51:40 PM
I think Intel is no more .Intel raid by Euro Army aka KDR secret army that trying to take over the world and Metal Arms was a great game.
Post by: Gamebasher on July 17, 2005, 10:10:20 AM
"You know who built it, you know what's in there and you know that nothing you don't want is in there (well, except for Windows' "extra functionality" like intalling random viri from the internet but Dell won't remove that either). It's really not difficult, most of the difficulty came from jumper setting and stuff back then, nowadays it's pretty much "plug everything together, power on"."
Random viri? Viruses? They put THAT into their computers? Why on Earth would they do that? Do you have personal experiences with it or is it something you heard about? I am already thinking about dropping Dell, then, and get somebody else to put a power PC together for me. No viri from birth on my PC.
Could they be placing viruses in their PC´s in order to compell people to buy anti-virus software with each PC sold?
Post by: KDR_11k on July 18, 2005, 12:36:16 AM
Post by: Gamebasher on July 20, 2005, 05:38:44 AM
That sounds terrible.
You know what?
I think somebody should one day make a game, where the quest is to kill as many of the people who release viruses onto peoples computers through the internet and the bigger the fish you kill the more you score. They could try to put that into a Sims game. I am sure it would be popular. People must be so annoyed over those viruses! I am sure I will be once I get a computer.
Funny though, a guy once told me that some of the people who release viruses onto the internet, come from that part of the industry who produces the anti-virus software itself and that they do so in order to increase the profits made from sales of that kind of software. How mean!
But could there be any truth in that at all?
Post by: stevey on July 21, 2005, 01:40:06 PM
Now now dont lie. It his damn falt for not updating ever 2nd tuesday-wednesday of a month.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 22, 2005, 04:47:18 AM
Post by: stevey on July 22, 2005, 06:20:54 AM
You know what I heard is the people write the virus are the people use linxs and bitch about windows.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 22, 2005, 08:06:14 AM
The other explaination was that VXers and spammers form an organized crime group, where the VXers turn computers into spambots and the spammers then use them to spam everyone. I think it's part one, part the other (script kiddies AND criminals).
Post by: stevey on July 25, 2005, 03:53:01 PM
you sound like the person that murdered a Russian spammer
