Post by: LuWoo75 on May 25, 2005, 07:56:11 AM
This is from Han_Solo from the G4 forums. he works for factor 5 if no one knows who he is.
Alright, i think im gonna do that "Clear up some more black smoke" for you mate
Im pretty sure the info im gonna release is already out in the japanese news and chinese, maby western also. But this info i have right now got to me in Feburary this year. So i dont know if you guys have seen it already, i hope not though . Also this info wasnt released by nintendo themselves , so i might be taking a risk...lol...
You ask about 2-3 times more powerful, what if its 20-30 times more powerful .
Alright, here are some specs from my sources about Revolution. Its still not the complete or "Satisfied" specs, but they are the numbers that would rival xbox 360 and PS3, like i have been saying all this while.....
Revolution Specs
CPU: IBM Custom PowerPC 3.5 GHz + 4 internal Power PC G5 cores running at 2.5 GHz each. Each core will have 128 KB or 256 Kb L1 cache. The whole CPU will share 512 KB - 1 MB of L2 cache. As you can see they are deciding wether to go up one notch. But never the less, its a very powerful CPU with 4 custom G5 cores.
There will also be two hardware threads per core, 8 hardware threads total.
12 billion dot product operations per second
Theoritical of 10 GHz total + 3 GHz CPU speed
Xbox 360 CPU:
Three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each = theoritical of 9.6 GHz + 3.2 GHz CPU speed
Two hardware threads per core; six hardware threads total
VMX-128 vector unit per core; three total
128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread
1 MB L2 cace
Revolution GPU
ATI Custom based RN520 core. the "N" stands for nintendo, and is because the ArtX team is with them, thats why its an "N". There will be 2 GPU cores (just like the nVidia SLI motherboard with two Graphics Chips), this will use ATI's alternative, and will be the first in any console.
Both GPU's will have 256 MB's of GDDR4 memory, with an addional 16 MB of eDRAM total. eDRAM is an onboard flash memory, just like the 3 MB on
the gamecubes flipper.
The cores will run at 600 MHz each, (rumours are that its possible 500 MHz each), but i doubt that.
24-to-48 way parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines for each core with unified shader architecture.
Polygon Performance: 500 million triangles per second theoritical, average ingame would be around <100 Million/sec
Shader Performance: 48 billion shader operations per second
Revolution memory
512 MB of 700 MHz Updated 1T-SRAM (its a totally redone design of something new, remember the nitrous i talked about)
Also, as I said I’m going to add more info, the Revolution will support a PPU chip (Physical Processing Chip). This chip is very new to computer architecture, and it will mainly help in the physics area. There will be 32 MB’s of its own RAM, which will link to the CPU and GPU. To compare to the usage of physics used in current games, Half Life 2 only used 5 MB’s, Rebel strike used around 1.3 MB’s, and RE4 used 3 MB’s, but this is off main memory, which made performance issues.
There will also be a separate sound card that will support only DD 5.1 – DTS 7.1, rumours has it will have 16 MB’s, like the Cube DSP.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 25, 2005, 08:07:53 AM
"they are the numbers that would rival xbox 360 and PS3, like i have been saying all this while....."
I'm not techy enough to know what any of these specs mean so I'll let other people indicate how "good" they are and if they're feasible. But I have to question how a Factor 5 guy would know then when they've jumped ship to the PS3. If the Rev specs are so great why is Factor 5 leaving? Maybe it's just money or Lucasarts is making the call but it would be weird for Factor 5 to leave nonetheless if Nintendo is providing them with good hardware.
Post by: OptimusPrime on May 25, 2005, 08:14:07 AM
Or IBM and ATI are using nano-technology or the sort.
I do like the ArtX detail, they made the GPU for the N64 and the Cube so it would very logical that they where making the Rev's GPU too. Gives the rumor some cred.
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 08:38:35 AM
Seriously, while it sounds powerful as all get-out, it also sounds like it'd be a bitch to program for. I still don't get the obsession with multicore processors. Seriously, the GPU is way more important than the CPU, why is everyone pumping so much money into crazy CPU designs?
I'm very skeptical, because it doesn't sound like what Nintendo's been promising at all. The last rumor sounded a lot more reasonable (even though it had a lot less RAM than I would've guessed)
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 25, 2005, 09:03:55 AM
As for the specs, I've been seeing these specs(more or less) for the last month or so, and if there is infact a PPU then that would definately make the Rev more powerful than X360 and on par to compete w/ PS3('s hyped specs).
"IBM Custom PowerPC 3.5 GHz + 4 internal Power PC G5 cores running at 2.5 GHz each"
Is that possible? To have a 3.5 ghz cpu w/ 4 g5 cores @ 2.5 ghz, that doesn't sound right.
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 09:11:28 AM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 25, 2005, 10:51:45 AM
Post by: BigJim on May 25, 2005, 10:55:21 AM
Not credible at all to me. In fact I think it's ridiculous.
Also, you can't add individual core GHz together for a "theoretical GHz". It just doesn't work that way.
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 10:59:03 AM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 25, 2005, 12:00:18 PM
Anyways, I found a few more quotes from this Han_Solo.
When questioned how would they fit all that into the small frame of the Rev, he gave a simple reply
Quote
why all this can fit is because of the 90nm process
When questioned about cost he had this to say
[QE]because of the 90nm process. ATI and IBM have the coolest running with copper inductors. ATI also got their prototype of an aluminium based solution by Sapphire, thats cooler than water based cooling systems.
So all this will be with it to make it cheap
In regards to graphics next gen and PPU he had this to say
Quote
Interesting isn’t it, about the thought of “would u ever imagine RE4 graphics in 1999”. Remember how I said that, the next generation would make people’s eyes wide like the way Rogue Leader did, in 2002. The same thing is going to happen.
In my technical opinion, remember the starting fight in space in the movie Star Wars Episode 3. That’s the graphics of next generation. That would be like the “next Rogue Leader”.
This is some of my info on the PPU chip.
The PPU was built by the company Ageia, and is named the PhysX chip
PhysX is the world's first Physics Processing Unit (PPU), an entirely new category of processor that promises to revolutionize gaming in the physics area. By offloading software physics processing from the CPU and GPU, the PPU completes the triangle of gameplay, graphics and physics, balancing the load of these processing tasks and enabling pervasive interactive reality in games.
PhysX Processor Architecture has been designed to enable radical acceleration of:
· Rigid body dynamics
· Universal collision detection
· Finite element analysis
· Soft body dynamics
· Fluid dynamics
· Hair simulation
· Clothing simulation
There is an SDK program that runs with PhysX and is as follows:
NovodeX Physics SDK
This program called the NovodeX Physics SDK, is a stable, high-performance solution for game developers to enable physics-based gameplay and effects in PC and console titles. This has been used in Half Life 2 extensively and Far Cry. But CPU power handling this and other things isn’t good compared with a CPU doing what it was mean to do, like data flow, and a PPU with this program handling just physics (and can also add physics to the sounds produced), makes the games kick ass. A powerful API for the PhysX PPU, NovodeX enables game developers to inject both software-only and hardware-accelerated features into their games. The NovodeX Physics SDK is also the first and only asynchronous (multithreaded) physics API capable of unleashing the power of multiprocessor gaming systems, just like Xbox 360, PS3 and the Revolution.
Thats all I've got so far from this Han_Solo character. Someone else went and posted rumored Rev specs they found over at the Xplay forums. They are as follow
Quote
Processor: A Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU, 2 symmetrical cores both running at 2.8 GHZ, all dedicated to gaming, 1MB Cache
Hard Drive: 15 Gigabytes, no, it will not be in the console, it will be in another piece of the Revolution (I am not allowed to give specifics, as listed above)
CPU Performance: 19 billion dot operations per second
GPU: ATI Graphics Chip running at 550 MHz, 7.5 MBs of embedded DRAM, 35 unified pixel pipelines, unified shader architechture similar architechture to the R520
Polygon Performance: 512 million triangles per second
Pixel Fill Rate: 15 gigasamples
RAM: 512 MB RAM, 600 MHz of DDR RAM
System Floating Point Performance: 0.75 Teraflops
I found these on the Xplay forum. This person claims to be working closely on the Revolution hardware. He also says the controller is not the "Revolutionary" aspect. I personally remain neautral.
Post by: BigJim on May 25, 2005, 12:23:24 PM
Aluminum-based cooler is better than water-based? Well, people use water-based coolers to overclock their high-end systems. Aluminum coolers are minimal at best these days. Even copper is more efficient than aluminum. and cheap.
Regarding the PhysX chip, all he did was copy/paste the information found on the ageia.com website. There's no evidence Nintendo has anything to do with them, unless one would consider "no evidence that they're not either" as being proof.
Regarding the other set of specs, those have been floating around for a while now... they just changed them to say that the hard drive was not pre-installed. They're more believable in terms of the specifications, but considering they were already wrong, that taints the credibility from now on with me.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on May 25, 2005, 12:25:38 PM
Even though I still believe the controller will feature a new mechanic, I don't believe that's all the REV has to offer.
Iwata has been saying it the whole time. He always stresses "User-Interface" instead of controller....why?
....I'm making a new thread.....
Post by: Dirk Temporo on May 25, 2005, 01:49:05 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on May 25, 2005, 01:56:12 PM
Edit: WOAH. Got a couple of these threads confused. I don't like to see these things happen- there's a thread on specs, and there's a thread on the 'user-interface" discussion. I am King, and you were born to please me. Right now I am not pleased, since my hugley influential post will be wasted on this thread. Pasting this post into the other thread is unacceptable.
Post by: BigJim on May 25, 2005, 02:04:11 PM
Post by: HereticPB on May 25, 2005, 02:18:01 PM
Heard of game exclusives? DMC on PS2 only, Ninja Gaiden on Xbox, etc.
Post by: ThePerm on May 25, 2005, 04:57:44 PM
1 ibm hollywood processor
1 ati broadway processor
1 nec mother board
what if the processor isn't really by design a power pc? what if its really custom and really optimized for gaming rather than multi purpose? It might just make it that much better for gaming.
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 05:14:21 PM
Post by: K-RPG on May 25, 2005, 05:27:06 PM
Well, that and IGN just confirmed that the Revolution is using customized 1T-SRAM in it's next system.
Post by: Caliban on May 25, 2005, 05:38:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: LuWoo75
Revolution GPU
Both GPU's will have 256 MB's of GDDR4 memory, with an addional 16 MB of eDRAM total. eDRAM is an onboard flash memory, just like the 3 MB on
the gamecubes flipper.
DDR4 memory? Since when? DDR3 is just coming out on the high-end graphics cards, like the X800 from ATI, and they are freaki'n expensive.
Post by: HereticPB on May 25, 2005, 08:05:24 PM
I think it would have to due to backwards compatiblity to GC games!
---
May 06, 2004 (yes 2004)
By the end of this year there will already be a new memory technology to replace GDDR3. The GDDR4 memory is build upon the GDDR3 standard. It's not really a revolution, just a few special tweaks to allow higher clock speeds on graphics cards using the new GGDR4 memory. GDDR4 is developed by JEDEC and several graphics companies like ATI and NVIDIA.
The current goals for the GDDR4 are to complete the process of standardization by the end of 2004 and push up the frequencies towards the 1.40GHz (2.80GHz effective) level. Lower clock-speeds, e.g. 1.00GHz (2.00GHz effective) are achievable by the GDDR3 technology, according to Samsung Electronics, who plans to debut such memory by the end of the year.
Source
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 25, 2005, 09:12:29 PM
Quote
Maybe they could engineer some of that heavy-metal cooling tech that Sapphire will be using into the Revolution to help keep the size down. Wishful thinking on my part probably
Quote
Actually, it might not be too far-fetched of a suggestion. Apparently, Nanocoolers' technology, with its ability to be 65x more thermally conductive than previous liquid cooling technologies, while retaining a very small size, has gotten a lot of attention.
Supposedly, a currently undisclosed "strategic" investor, rumored to possibly be a foreign company, has contributed several million dollars towards development so that this company can use the tech in an upcoming consumer product. All the CEO can say of the development so far is that it is a really big opportunity.......
There's no hard evidence pointing toward this (Nintendo/Nanocoolers partnership), but the grounds for speculation is reasonable enough. It would be pretty cool (pun intended).
Post by: nemo_83 on May 25, 2005, 09:50:16 PM
Quote:
Wow, I could go on and on for a long time about what these three chips do. Here's the capsule version, and feel free to ask questions.
So, the most specialized chip first, the PPU. It does physics. You send it some information about the world and it does the complex math for physical simulation. Usually this simulation is kinematics, collisions, gravity, etc. With a dedicated PPU, it may also be fluid flow like water and smoke or soft body stuff like cloth or gelatin. Physics does not usually include optics and light. That's the GPUs territory.
Now, the GPU. The GPU takes in the objects to render and does all the math to convert them into the camera's space and light them, etc. Common GPU tasks are lighting, texturing, skinning, transparency, etc.
Finally, the CPU. The CPU does everything else. That's just too simple of a way to say it though.
The GPU and PPU are specialized processors. They take data formatted a certain way and process it according to very special rules. The CPU is more flexible. You can throw virtually anything at it and it will handle it. What's the tradeoff here? If you tried to do what the GPU does on the CPU, it would be orders of magnitude slower. On the other hand, the GPU is wholly incapable of some of the things that the CPU can do.Now, regarding your overall question, here's the data flow of a game. Load up some data and run the game logic on it. The game logic may need physics data so it asks the PPU for that information. The PPU grabs the data over the bus and returns some answers. Once all that's done, the CPU moves some objects around and then tells the GPU to draw them in the right place. The GPU grabs the vertices and textures over the bus and does some drawing. The addition of more flexible GPUs and PPUs means that the CPU does less calculation and more administrative work. It hands stuff off to other processors and waits for answers. Sometimes, this is actually occurring a frame or two out of synch. For example, you see a frame on TV and input controller commands that are actually rendered two frames later. You don't notice this in general because it's only 1/30th of a second.
Regarding the statement that such and such a console has way more power than some other console. Don't believe the hype. GameCube has the most powerful CPU of the current generation even though Xbox has a higher clock cycle, but that's not what the hype machine would have you believe. Wait for the consoles to come out. I'm pretty confident that PS3 will be the most powerful on paper but it will be theoretical power that is too damn complicated for anyone to actually harness in a game.
End Quote:
then I asked him about CELL; this was all before E3.
Quote:
So, about CELL. Here's what I can say from what has been publicly disclosed. First though, a quick discussion of microprocessor architecture. I promise it won't be too bad.
So, as I mentioned about the CPU and GPU, they do different things. GPUs expect specially formatted data and perform on it in a certain way. CPUs accept general data and do general operations. That's not entirely true. CPUs generally have what's called a SIMD unit now. SIMD stands for Single Instruction Multiple Data. SIMD works on specially formatted data and runs much faster. GPUs, PPUs, and the SPEs in CELL are all SIMD units.
Now, if I have two numbers like 5 and 6, I can multiply them to get 30. Let's say we're on computer where that takes 10 clock cycles. If I have a character with 1000 vertices each of which have an X, Y, and Z coordinate and I want to multiply those vertices by a number, I have to do 3000 multiplications at 10 clock cycles for a total of 30000 clock cycles. Let's suppose instead that I pack all my coordinates into a single vector that is (X, Y, Z, 1). There's a SIMD instruction that will multiple two vectors in the same number of clock cycles. So now, I can multiply 1000 vertices in 10000 clock cycles. It's three times faster thanks to SIMD.
Given that information, you can see that SIMD would be a big win to have on any chip if the data were formatted for SIMD. It just so happens that much of the data in games is uniquely formatted for SIMD usage. It's for this reason that every major game console since the Dreamcast has had some SIMD component. SSE, Paired Singles, Vector Units, etc.
So, how does this apply to CELL. CELL is a PowerPC chip with a bunch of SPEs or Synergistic Processing Units. Each SPE is a high speed SIMD processor with its own local memory. That means that CELL can process a whole bunch of mathematical data. It can move vertices around, calculate physics, and all sorts of cool stuff. The problem is that the data must be formatted to be processed that way, and sometimes there's just not a good way to format your data for SIMD.
If you took CELL and Xbox 360 and threw a big list of numbers at them and wrote the absolute fastest algorithm to multiply them together, I imagine that CELL would be faster. (It's all speculation at this point.) In a game context though, there are other considerations like RAM size, RAM speed, cache sizes, disc access speeds, etc.
CELL is going to allow people to do some pretty cool tricks with physics like fluid flow. It may allow some really cool procedural texturing or curved surface algorithms. Six months later, some really smart programmer will figure out how to do it on the other consoles. I don't think CELL will revolutionize the industry.
End Quote:
Post by: ThePerm on May 25, 2005, 09:58:41 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 25, 2005, 10:05:18 PM
I'm assuming that there is a part two to your post......
I don't see anything directly relating to the REV, unless you were talking about him saying that CELL won't REVolutionize the gaming industry.
Post by: HereticPB on May 25, 2005, 10:06:04 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on May 25, 2005, 10:20:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1
*In reference of Nemo's post*
I'm assuming that there is a part two to your post......
I don't see anything directly relating to the REV, unless you were talking about him saying that CELL won't REVolutionize the gaming industry.
I just thought it was related to this because he explains the difference between the three chips. He sort of dodged REV in his answer, probably because he didn't know anything about its specs; especially if it had a PPU; or because of those nasty NDAs. Plus I just wanted to parade a second opinioin that CELL ain't all its cracked up to be.
When I play games on Cube like WW or Sunshine I feel these games are the penacle of physics. Yet the system doesn't even have a PPU; its all elbow grease and hard work. I really appreciate that about Nintendo. I don't say that enough sometimes in my attempts at objectivity. If the REV really does have a dedicated PPU with a lot of ram then that must mean that there is some serious in/output on the controller end.
Post by: HereticPB on May 25, 2005, 11:36:07 PM
And don't let the 90nm thing fool you. IBM and AMD have been working on 65 to 45 to 32 nanometer technology. Possibly using the 90nm technology, IBM could put parts into the chip using the 65nm or smaller processes. It is a custom chip afterall! Just a thought.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 25, 2005, 11:52:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Truthliesn1seyes
ran into this over at the Macaddicts forum. It is in regards to the liquid metal cooling tech from Saphire.Quote
Maybe they could engineer some of that heavy-metal cooling tech that Sapphire will be using into the Revolution to help keep the size down. Wishful thinking on my part probablyQuote
Actually, it might not be too far-fetched of a suggestion. Apparently, Nanocoolers' technology, with its ability to be 65x more thermally conductive than previous liquid cooling technologies, while retaining a very small size, has gotten a lot of attention.
Supposedly, a currently undisclosed "strategic" investor, rumored to possibly be a foreign company, has contributed several million dollars towards development so that this company can use the tech in an upcoming consumer product. All the CEO can say of the development so far is that it is a really big opportunity.......
There's no hard evidence pointing toward this (Nintendo/Nanocoolers partnership), but the grounds for speculation is reasonable enough. It would be pretty cool (pun intended).
Everything you need to know about the tech
Quote
Advantages
The simplicity of the advanced cooling solution and the thermal and physical properties of the liquid metal combine for an impressive list of advantages for nanoCoolers' liquid-metal cooling loops to meet the need for more robust cooling solutions.
-Very low thermal resistances
-Silent performance
-High reliability due to no moving parts and the simplicity of the solution
-Small form factors
-High power efficiency
-Supports extremely high heat flux densities (no longer a limiting factor)
-Orientation independent
-Able to easily cool multiple heat sources
-Scalable heat removal via current control
-High volume solution based on commodity parts
-High heat transport capabilities
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 25, 2005, 11:55:16 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on May 26, 2005, 12:25:45 AM
Hell, there are so many devs out there but you don't see any of them release information about the next gen consoles, that's because they aren't allowed to talk about that.
Besides, I'm pretty convinced Nintendo will go with a single core CPU, much cheaper, much easier to program for and realistically you don't need much more. Perhaps one of these PPU thingies but I wouldn't count on that. A system that's equipped with a GPU and PPU wouldn't need that beefy a CPU because most gamelogic isn't very computing intensive. The complicated stuff is physics, graphics and to a certai degree AI. The AI would be the only thing left to the CPU, since the general logic takes maybe 10% of the load the CPU could almost be called the AI processor.
Speaking of which, anyone taking bets on how long it will take until we see AI processors?
Post by: HereticPB on May 26, 2005, 12:37:30 AM
Quote
The 90 nm process does effect the design, like size (of course), heat, efficiency, and most of all cost. Yes it does produce 62 watts per core, but to show you how hot it is, is like this...using physics...
Wattage required for heat-up = Weight of material x Specific Heat x Temperature Rise°C/3.412 x Time
Therefore Specific Heat = 3.412 x Time x Watts/ Weight of material x Temperature Rise °C
Temperature rise = ~15 °C. It stays 15 degrees hotter constantly after 10 mins in G5 PowerPC chips
Therefore Specific heat of the CPU = 3.412 x 10 Minute (600 sec) x 62 watts/ 0.5 KG x 15
= 282 degrees, theoretically, but with aluminum parts and copper inter-connectors with a perfect cooling design, you square the number to get a very good 16.79 degrees per core
Therefore 62 degrees total from the CPU.
The GPU wont make any difference to the heat. therefore thats the peak of heat thats allowed in todays computers, therefore its ok.
all the other specs ive produced are correct no matter what you say
P.S that is the closest answer i can give you WITHOUT the aluminium design, that was originally invented by sapphire. Those numbers are basically correct to PC/Mac terms.
67.16 degrees total though.
Post by: BigJim on May 26, 2005, 06:50:34 AM
Not sure what "perfect cooling" means. It wouldn't change the power consumption and heat produced by the chip. The math doesn't really work for current dual core chips, it wouldn't apply for a theoretical quad core.
Much less be useful or cheap enough to produce for a gaming console.
Post by: ThePerm on May 26, 2005, 07:14:57 AM
Post by: Caliban on May 26, 2005, 09:25:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: HereticPB
May 06, 2004 (yes 2004)
By the end of this year there will already be a new memory technology to replace GDDR3. The GDDR4 memory is build upon the GDDR3 standard. It's not really a revolution, just a few special tweaks to allow higher clock speeds on graphics cards using the new GGDR4 memory. GDDR4 is developed by JEDEC and several graphics companies like ATI and NVIDIA.
The current goals for the GDDR4 are to complete the process of standardization by the end of 2004 and push up the frequencies towards the 1.40GHz (2.80GHz effective) level. Lower clock-speeds, e.g. 1.00GHz (2.00GHz effective) are achievable by the GDDR3 technology, according to Samsung Electronics, who plans to debut such memory by the end of the year.
Source
Ohhhh, cool, I knew I might have been wrong since I haven't been following PC technology news.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 26, 2005, 09:37:27 AM
Quote
P.P.S about the aluminium cooling, i meant this
link : http://www.sapphiretech.com/vga/blizzard.asp
Seems like he too is saying that Nintendo will use the liquid metal cooling tech.
Post by: NotSoStu on May 26, 2005, 10:16:46 AM
Post by: jasonditz on May 26, 2005, 10:27:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If that Han_Solo guy really worked for Factor 5 I'm pretty sure now he doesn't anymore. Any developer is tied by an NDA, any console data requires another NDA. Sometimes even telling someone you signed the NDA is already a breach of contract. Breach of contract is obviously a federal offense ands will make sure you will never get a sensitive job again because you cannot be trusted.
Its not quite that draconian... you can certainly tell someone "I can't say, I signed an NDA" without violating that NDA.
I've only ever signed one NDA in my life, and I never had occasion to tell anyone what I saw anyhow.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 26, 2005, 10:35:48 AM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 26, 2005, 10:44:34 AM
This is from techtree.com. A member over at the Nsider forums states that they are reliable and techtree were right about the Gamecube specs before they were released.
Quote
It seems in this war of new consoles the only clear profit-maker is IBM. IBM has made the PowerPC-based core(s) for the Xbox 360, the Cell processor for Sony in conjunction with Sony and Toshiba, and also the Power-PC G5 based processor(s) for the Nintendo Revolution. Not one, but four! Yes, apparently the Revolution will feature FOUR 2.5 GHz PowerPC G5-class processors, codenamed "Broadway", and a graphics processor by ATI, codenamed "Hollywood", the dual-core RN520, with 16MB of frame buffer DRAM. Technically, this makes the Revolution a bit more powerful (2.5 x 4 > 3.2 x 3, 16 > 10). The Revolution also features 512 MB of memory.
It shows 4 2.5 ghz processors
Quote
Originally posted by: Stu L Tissimus
Personally, this is bull*bleep!*. He prettym uch gave it away with the whole "Theoretical 10GHz + 3GHz" comment; Three 2GHz cores != 6GHz processor.
Could the 4 2.5's be what Han_Solo was referring to? 4 x 2.5 would equal 10. Either it was a typo in his part or he let some info slide by mistake.
Post by: BigJim on May 26, 2005, 11:59:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
when did macs become so overheated...back in the day i had an impression that they managed to keep cool pretty well
They've done pretty well. In the last year for the G5 it has been more of an issue. The high-end G5 systems needed water cooling to maintain reasonable noise levels. They're particularly hot right now at 2.7GHz, about on the same level as typical Pentium 4s.
Post by: K-RPG on May 26, 2005, 12:59:21 PM
Quote
The 90 nm process does effect the design, like size (of course), heat, efficiency, and most of all cost. Yes it does produce 62 watts per core, but to show you how hot it is, is like this...using physics...
Wattage required for heat-up = Weight of material x Specific Heat x Temperature Rise°C/3.412 x Time
Therefore Specific Heat = 3.412 x Time x Watts/ Weight of material x Temperature Rise °C
Temperature rise = ~15 °C. It stays 15 degrees hotter constantly after 10 mins in G5 PowerPC chips
Therefore Specific heat of the CPU = 3.412 x 10 Minute (600 sec) x 62 watts/ 0.5 KG x 15
= 282 degrees, theoretically, but with aluminum parts and copper inter-connectors with a perfect cooling design, you square the number to get a very good 16.79 degrees per core
Therefore 62 degrees total from the CPU.
The GPU wont make any difference to the heat. therefore thats the peak of heat thats allowed in todays computers, therefore its ok.
all the other specs ive produced are correct no matter what you say
P.S that is the closest answer i can give you WITHOUT the aluminium design, that was originally invented by sapphire. Those numbers are basically correct to PC/Mac terms
P.P.S about the aluminium cooling, i meant this
link : http://www.sapphiretech.com/vga/blizzard.asp
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 26, 2005, 01:15:35 PM
Post by: K-RPG on May 26, 2005, 01:48:54 PM
Quote
Personally, this is bull*bleep!*. He prettym uch gave it away with the whole "Theoretical 10GHz + 3GHz" comment; Three 2GHz cores != 6GHz processor.
He claims 4, 2.5GHz processors -- not 3, 2GHz cores.
Quote
theoretical math. All else being equal, a 4-core design is not going to output the same heat as a single core, no matter what. Copper interconnects, 90mn, SOI, etc are all old news. Already existing and used for the PPC970. They're still hot.
Not sure what "perfect cooling" means. It wouldn't change the power consumption and heat produced by the chip. The math doesn't really work for current dual core chips, it wouldn't apply for a theoretical quad core.
Much less be useful or cheap enough to produce for a gaming console.
*sigh* I'll see what he says to that.....
FYI; Just to be on the politically correct side, Han Solo didn't join and say -- "I'm from Factor 5, want the revolution specs?" -- he simply existed until he mentioned, and proved that the GameCube is around 7%, physically, more advanced then the Xbox -- and mentioned benchmarks that he did with Factor 5.
We couldn't get him to spill the details (yes, we believe him for the most part -- although, I agree that would be impractical from Nintendo in 2006) until after he was sure it was ok to do it. There are webpages blurting out similar, yet less detailed, speculations on the Revolution. Like Tech Tree. But he did, 100% completely nail the Xbox 360 speculations. Although he did say they would use HD-DVD, this was month's before GDC -- when Microsoft planned on using some sort of HD-DVD solution.
Post by: BigJim on May 26, 2005, 02:05:45 PM
It's also kind of convenient that liquid metal cooling became news in geek circles just recently, and suddenly that's what Nintendo's using.
I don't doubt the Revolution will be powerful. I don't believe the "2-3x more powerful" thing either. I just don't buy the quad-core G5 idea. I'm much, much more inclined to believe it's a custom PPC with less integer strength than the G5 and stripped of other complexities that have little value in a game system.
Would I believe that it could be derived from the G5? Sure, maybe. But a straight move of a desktop chip that has yet to go dual core, advancing to a quad core design, selling in a game system at a fraction of the cost of the computers they will power, containing twice as many cores as those computers, and emitting just as much heat as a current single core, all in a year's time... no. That's a big stretch.
Post by: nemo_83 on May 26, 2005, 03:03:36 PM
The controller must be a major piece of controversy.
Post by: HereticPB on May 26, 2005, 03:35:45 PM
Look at GC for more details about heat and small boxes.
Post by: MrMojoRising on May 26, 2005, 03:38:55 PM
I'm going to go look for pictures.
Post by: nemo_83 on May 26, 2005, 05:00:09 PM
Post by: jasonditz on May 26, 2005, 05:11:44 PM
Post by: ThePerm on May 26, 2005, 05:48:11 PM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 26, 2005, 05:48:57 PM
Quote
Then if your worried and skeptical about the Revolution having 4 Custom G5 cores in one PowerPC CPU, why not you answer of how xbox 360 can run 3 cores that run 500 MHz faster than each of the 4 cores in the Revolution; that are much cooler than current single G5 cores ?? Answer me that, please.....i know the answer, i want you to answer.
I cant believe this, this is total fanboyism if you ask me.
Also the Cell, has 7-8 cores running for the PS3, they are of PowerPC architecture, and they all run at 3.2 GHz, MUCH faser than the 4 cores in the Revolution that run at 2.5 GHz. Though the PS3 does have totally redone cores in the PowerPC chip, for cooling.
I have done extensive physics in the University of Western Australia, and the maths I have given is totally correct. I can go on and on with even more complicated equations, but thats if you take the subject further, i may not even talk, because its pointless repeating
If i were you all i would do now is just wait for now......( a smily face with a wink was here but it didn't get pasted)
Post by: jasonditz on May 26, 2005, 06:20:33 PM
Well, I'm sold.
Post by: K-RPG on May 26, 2005, 06:47:02 PM
Post by: HereticPB on May 26, 2005, 07:00:46 PM
There is another guy saying that Rev will use a 2 core PPC processor 2.7ghz each and is 40% faster than current G5 processors.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 26, 2005, 08:12:54 PM
Seems like Nintendo will be attending some PAX exhibition in Aug. Its open to the public too. This seems like the perfect moment for Nintendo to give everyone some hands on time with the Rev so they can really see what its about. This is the approach I believe they'll take since, like the DS IMO, the Rev will not be appreciated on paper and video.
Post by: jasonditz on May 26, 2005, 08:22:53 PM
Post by: PowerHair on May 26, 2005, 08:54:07 PM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 26, 2005, 08:55:19 PM
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/26/news_6126595.html
Post by: Hostile Creation on May 26, 2005, 10:09:03 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on May 26, 2005, 10:39:10 PM
Claiming the Cell has eight PPC cores reeks of idiocy or ignorance. There is only one, stripped down PPC core in a Cell, the rest are vector processing units (SPEs). That's like saying the PS2 is a three-processor machine because it has those two VPUs. Or hell, why don't we start counting the GPU as a processor and claim it's a PPC core?
Perfect anything in a physics context means a system that behaves according to simplified math, usually ignoring a few factors that are always present in reality, like friction. A perfect conductor is a superconductor, a perfect resistor has zero deviation. Perfect cooling would mean a system that behaves ideally at all times (probably even constant room temperatures).
Liquid metal cooling, water cooling, etc just transport heat to other places, usually huge heatsinks. The heat doesn't get "destroyed" (if it did we'd have to rewrite modern physics from scratch), it can only be distributed. The huge heatsinks you can put on watercoolers would never fit on the processor and can dissipate the heat more easily. The Revolution would still need appropriately large heatsinks and perhaps huge fans to cool that, absolutely impossible in that case. Hell, my PC has cooling systems that are larger than the Rev's case!
Seriously, if this was Roulette my money would still lie on the "single core" field.
Post by: BigJim on May 27, 2005, 02:22:45 AM
Let's start with Cell: KDR explained that succinctly. It's one simplified core (in-order execution, 2 instructions per clock) with a number of simplified vectors (no cache, 2 instructions per clock, no hardware branch prediction). It's also been explained in tech circles that the Cell would be considerably weak for a desktop chip due to the simplified PPE, despite its high GHz clock. So we're not talking about the same class of chips here.
As far as the 360 goes, they're cooler than G5's because they're not G5's. In fact, it's been said that the 3 cores in the 360 are actually roughly similar to the Cell's PPE core. Knowing what we know about the Cell, we can extrapolate that the CPU in the Xbox 360 is also not nearly as powerful as a G5 either, much less 3 of them.
The Cell and 360 don't inherit properties from the existing PPC series (400, 700, 900). The philosophy is different and they come from their own lineage. So we're not dealing with G5-class hardware here no matter how it's diced. They lack complexities which allows them to maintain a reasonable heat/cost proposition regardless of the GHz clock.
So that brings us back to why there would be a quad-core G5 in the Revolution. Everybody else is using cheaper PPC cores. Why would Nintendo go the FAR more expensive route if they plan to have the cheapest console and wouldn't benefit from much of what contributes to the higher cost?
Obviously this guy is smart. Surely he understands that not all GHz are the same. It has nothing to do with fanboyism. It's about being a realist. I don't doubt the Revolution will be powerful, but if anything they will take the same simplified PPC route, whether it's 1 core or 8 cores, 1 GHZ or 3 GHz.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 27, 2005, 07:18:49 AM
Doesn't branch prediction only apply to out-of-order processors anyway? I see no reason for an in-order processor to care about the future.
I expect Nintendo to use a less simplified processor (not in-order) because having only one in-order core would kill their performance and hell, when there's only one core you can make it a decent one. One processor with out-of-order execution sounds like the easiest to code for, which is another point for it. Also I don't think the GC was in-order so that out-of-order execution might be required for GC emulation (not sure if an in-order processor could keep up with that unoptimized code).
Post by: BigJim on May 27, 2005, 08:07:46 AM
I do like the "somewhat more powerful" single core idea if they can pull it off. At the end of the day there's probably not going to be too much of a difference among the three of them.
Post by: supersoaker on May 27, 2005, 03:49:33 PM
now this raises two questions: is Aries and Han_Solo the same person? or are these specs actually accurate? so far 3 separate 'sources' have 'confirmed' these specs: Han_solo, Aries, and Techtree.
edit: here's the Aries transcript from Brokensaints:
"Aries Says:
"April 28th, 2005 at 1:13 pm
"Well, it seems most people here do not believe me anymore. But as I stated before, I will be proven true come E3. I know that this is a bold statement, but one I can make since I’m absolutely convinced of the info I provided. I noticed someone asking for a description of the NOA building? Well, I could go even further and give you a description of the HQ of Nintendo of Japan which I visited a couple of times while I was still working for NOA. But would that make you feel better? Not actually knowing yourself what the building looks like? For all you know, I could simply make something up just to give you the false impression that I am 100% plausible. I really don’t see any worth in such a description to be honest.
"Anyway, to clear some other things up: the final design for the Revolution hasn’t been decided upon yet. At least, not as far as we know over here. So this could mean that they’ll actually show some prototype of the final design at E3, just like they did with the DS last year. Of course we have an SDK, but that machine probably wont look like the final design either. Just like with the current SDK’s for the Xbox 360.
"As for specs, since you seem to be really privy on them, the Revolution will indeed support both 720p as well as 1080i. The GPU of the console packs quite a punch. It’s actually two cores linked together with ATi’s alternative on nVidia’s SLI. Though no releasedate has probably been determined yet by Nintendo (current releasedate looks to be around March next year in Japan), this could mean that Revolution will be the first device to support this ATi technology. Even before they introduce it to the PC market.
"Now the cores themselves are completely custom-made by a different team than the core for the Xbox 360. It’s known as the RN520, where the N actually stands for Nintendo. One core in itself, isn’t as fast as the R500-ish core of the Xbox 360, but together they are quite a bit more powerful. The CPU consists of four cores each running at 2,5 GHz and is based on the G5 architecture. Each core has it’s own 128KB L1 cachememory, and they all share a L2 cache of 512KB. Next to this, the CPU and GPU share 512MB of memory, just like the Xbox 360 does. Also, the GPU has it’s own on-die memory for quick tasks which amounts to 16MB of eDRAM.
"There’s also a seperate processor for sound, which is quite advanced and takes a lot of workload off the CPU. Last but not least, the Revolution features a PPU for complex physics, which utilizes it’s own 32MB of memory. So all in all, it’s quite the complex machine with many different processors. Still, it’s rather easy to develop for because of the excellent development tools which Nintendo delivered. These are all GameCube based with a lot of completely new features built-in."
Post by: K-RPG on May 27, 2005, 03:56:15 PM
Post by: supersoaker on May 27, 2005, 03:59:40 PM
so i think that maybe Aries should gain some credibility back, because like i said, this was posted a freaking month ago.
so what if he was wrong about the predictions? those don't concern me anymore. what concerns me is how freaking
similar Aries' specs are compared to Han_Solo.
if this turns out to be true, he'll be the one laughing at us.
dammit, i don't know what to believe anymore!
Post by: K-RPG on May 27, 2005, 04:08:17 PM
Post by: LuWoo75 on May 27, 2005, 05:06:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: supersoaker
okay then.
so i think that maybe Aries should gain some credibility back, because like i said, this was posted a freaking month ago.
so what if he was wrong about the predictions? those don't concern me anymore. what concerns me is how freaking
similar Aries' specs are compared to Han_Solo.
if this turns out to be true, he'll be the one laughing at us.
dammit, i don't know what to believe anymore!
Yeah there are so many rumors and conspiricy theories on every board each one contradicting and confirming at the same time who know's what is real. I went over to the boards on gamespot and there is so much speculation over there i havta laugh at it all.
Post by: LuWoo75 on May 27, 2005, 05:29:22 PM
Post by: nickmitch on May 27, 2005, 08:05:31 PM
Post by: ThePerm on May 27, 2005, 08:23:39 PM
Post by: Darc Requiem on May 28, 2005, 04:20:09 AM
Post by: BigJim on May 28, 2005, 06:25:01 AM
The G5 issue has been covered ad nausea. There are no logical reasons to believe its accurate. The number of cores are equally suspect when they're allegedly G5s. When this information actually makes it onto a credible major gaming site, then the information will carry some weight.Some folks don't seem to understand how much heat IBM has been getting for not being able to supply 970's to Apple in the quantities they want, or cool enough to be able to add it to their powerbooks. Expecting a quad-core G5 is expecting IBM to overcome serious heat issues, power consumption, more than quadruple their present production yields, overcome dual-core production, overcome quad-core production, somehow make the quad-core chip inexpensive enough for Nintendo to come close to breaking even on a $200-$300 box, and do it all sometime in the next 6-15 months.
In a nutshell, get a magic wand. IBM might be able to ship dual-core chips for high end Apple boxes by the end of the year. Everything else? No way.
Revolution will be powerful enough, and could very well have a quad-core chip (though there is no proof other than speculation breeding more speculation). I just think people need to get off the G5 train for these reasons and the others explained before. No sense in repeating myself after this point.
Post by: jasonditz on May 28, 2005, 06:59:46 AM
Never count out IBM.
Assuming the rumors are true, hey've got two potentially huge customers for low-power G5's in Apple and Nintendo. Something like that has a way of getting things done.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 28, 2005, 10:13:59 AM
Anyways, here's a new post from Han_Solo in responce to someone....
Quote
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Spiza
If you did work for factor 5, wouldn't you be worried about a certain non-disclosure agreement you would have to have signed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Havent you read the asian media and news ? i wouldnt think so, as its slowly coming to western news. Some of the asian news was very wague in the hardware, but never the less, was exactly the same specs, as the specs form each developer has recieved from nintendo. I reckon its ok for me to release this amount of info (which is much more than what the asian countries have recieved). I still havent said what the revolutionary part is . I dont think i would ever say, as thats nintendo's presentation.
Also, tell the PlanetGamecube forums folks, that their G5 assumption is correct, only if nintendo added pure G5 cores into the console. I have released i havent made it clear for you guys, and your all understanding it differently. When i said...
CPU: Custom PowerPC 3.5 GHz + 4 internal PowerPC G5 cores, 2.5 GHz each
I meant that each of those 4 cores are not the actual cores of the G5 chip you see today. They are totally redone, and customized, but are mainly of the G5 architecture (its to do with making it more efficient, shorter pipelining with more pipes, etc). i think i made a mistake on my account, so im sorry for that. But at the time, i thought you guys would understand.
The first word "Custom" in my spec sheet, refers to all the components of the IBM CPU
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 28, 2005, 10:16:46 AM
Will it be a stripped down G5? doubt it, you strip down a chip when your low on time, Nin has had more than enough time to comeup with an entirely custom chip(based on G5 tech?) that is BC w/ the GC.
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 28, 2005, 10:20:10 AM
Post by: HereticPB on May 28, 2005, 10:33:23 AM
Edit:
Well looky what I found!
Unika Rev
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 28, 2005, 10:43:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Truthliesn1seyes
blacknmild, that is exactly what I just posed Han_Solo saying. He says its based off of the G5 architecture and he sees that everyone has assumed its the actualy G5's we have out today that everyone is thinking will be included.
I meant to post that ever since yesterday, but didn't get around to it till just then, but you also posted that while I was in the middle of typing, spell checking and fact checking(sort of) my post.
Post by: BigJim on May 28, 2005, 11:57:50 AM
I had a hunch the next step would be the "custom" clarification. Promise I'm not going to be a broken record.
I'll just say customizing a G5 for consoles would mean re-engineering it to a point where you couldn't really call it a G5 anymore.While they're all lovingly called PPCs, their philosophies aren't in the same book. It's more realistic to start with the same core that Sony and MS used, and customize "up" from there (as opposed to "down" from a G5). Is it *possible* they'd strip a G5? Yeah, but not practical. IBM already has a discreet line of PPCs R&D'ed from the ground up specifically for console/set top box solutions.
Now if I'm off base, I'll gladly say I'm a retard and don't deserve to feed off of the jam between everybody's toes (I'll make it my signature). I'm in no competition for relevance like some of the anonymous sources. I'd love for it to be a G5, "custom" or otherwise, because it would wipe the floor with the competition's CPUs. But there are enough things that make the idea lean towards "snowball's chance in Hell."
Post by: Noble~Feather on May 28, 2005, 12:30:58 PM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on May 28, 2005, 05:17:52 PM
Post by: Noble~Feather on May 28, 2005, 08:00:39 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 28, 2005, 08:18:22 PM
Teasy from B3D forums says:
Quote
I don't get that. Why would it have a 3.5Ghz CPU with four custom 2.5Ghz cores on the same chip?, sounds wierd to me. Not that it matters since the specs are obviously a fantasy. I mean, a 160 GFLOP CPU, dual 48 way shader GPU cores with 256MB ram per core and 16MB eDRAM, plus 512MB main ram and a ageia PPU with 32MB ram.. That's absolutely crazy.. That system would whipe the floor with XBox 360 and PS3 combined.
That is the same point that I brought up back on the 1st page, it seem wierd to have a cpu @ one speed and four cores @ a different speed.
Post by: MrMojoRising on May 28, 2005, 11:09:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Noble~Feather
They're pretty damn close, as far as I know.
If I find out you're toying with our emotions, I won't like you very much.
Post by: ThePerm on May 28, 2005, 11:26:13 PM
Post by: jasonditz on May 29, 2005, 06:48:42 AM
Post by: ThePerm on May 30, 2005, 02:03:34 PM
its like nes vs the other systems that were out. t didnt have as powerful of a processor...but it had special features that let sprite managemewnt happen way more efficiently..so in essence it could do more.
Post by: nemo_83 on June 05, 2005, 06:37:49 PM
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on June 05, 2005, 10:07:23 PM
Post by: jasonditz on June 06, 2005, 06:32:36 AM
All these modern systems are looking more and more like Atari Jaguars
Post by: nemo_83 on June 06, 2005, 09:18:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Truthliesn1seyes
I'm a lil slow right now but whats NDL? lol
They do graphics kits or something like that. One of the games that used their software was Elder Scrolls 3.
Post by: Galford on June 06, 2005, 03:43:07 PM
If you really wanted to trash next-gen consoles, calling them
Saturn-like would be more appropriate.
Post by: bmfrosty on June 06, 2005, 06:43:08 PM
Throwaway made-up Revolution Specs:
3ghz Broadway processor
600Mhz Hollywood GPU
150Mhz Sound Core
256MB 1T-SRAM
192MB DDR SDRAM (running at 150mhz)
Post by: NoVisAnima on June 07, 2005, 04:11:10 AM
Post by: jasonditz on June 07, 2005, 07:28:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: NoVisAnima
BTW thinking that the CPU really isn't going to be that important is a major mistake. In all games these days the bottleneck is the CPU. These days the GPU can do so much but still has to wait for the CPU to tell it what to do next. You really do need a fast CPU to make the most of the GPU so that it isn't waiting too long and can get a decent frame rate.
Tell that to my Powermac G3. I'm getting 1024x768 with over 100 Fps on a CPU that's functionally almost identical to the one of the gamecube.
Post by: oohhboy on June 08, 2005, 03:45:11 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 08, 2005, 08:29:20 AM
Post by: jasonditz on June 08, 2005, 08:34:58 AM
Post by: oohhboy on June 09, 2005, 02:18:47 AM
Post by: K-RPG on June 09, 2005, 06:57:28 PM
2 PowerPC G5 CPU's @ 1.8GHz (Not Cores)
512k L2 Cache
1200 MHz FSB
600MHz GPU with 12MB's of Embedded 1T-SRAM
128MB 1T-SRAM Main Memory, 600 MHz (L3 Cache to CPU & GPU)
256MB 400MHz NEC designed embedded DRAM
16-Bit HD7.1 Digital Sound Chip
Dedicated Sound Bandwidth with no effect on CPU
6GB HD Dual Layered, Custom Panasonic Optical Discs
Uses Copper Wire for more less heat
A 3:1 balance between the CPU and RAM
A 1:1 balance between the GPU and RAM
What do you more educated techy's think of these speculations?!
Post by: thepoga on June 09, 2005, 07:56:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: jasonditz
Actually Heretic 2
Heretic 2 screens
Ummm... this game was made in 1998. Running a 7 year old game "100 fps" in 1024x768 is nothing to brag about.
Post by: nemo_83 on June 09, 2005, 09:24:59 PM
null
new leak apparently. sound sweet.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 09, 2005, 09:49:08 PM
Bull. Rev discs are 12cm, they confirmed that. A DVD at 12cm can hold 9 GB, a HD disc 30 (HDDVD) or 50 (BRD).
Nemo: Can't get any more ridiculous. Didn't we talk lengthily about why G5s are bad console processors? And what the hell would an AI chip be and why would it need three of them? Hell, the chips alone wouldn't fit into the Rev's case, add cooling and you'd have something the size of a bigtower and the price of an entry-level Cray!
Post by: nemo_83 on June 09, 2005, 09:53:39 PM
Post by: MrMojoRising on June 10, 2005, 12:17:10 AM
Quote
By the way to end all of the CONSTANT flames and bs on your forum about the “Nintendo On”. IT IS NOT FAKE, it’s the new Virtual Boy and it WILL work hand-in-hand with the Rev. although it will not be required to play games. It will just add a whole new dynamic to the games coupled with the controller. The guys who made it finished it in a month and a half on a Area 51 CPU. I thought it was funny people thought that it was made in a week by one person, what a joke if one did all that it would’ve probably taken 6 months or so.
Wow, wowitty wow wow...this just proves this guy is for real.
Post by: stevey on June 10, 2005, 04:58:15 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 10, 2005, 05:22:50 AM
Nemo: The 6GB were from K-RPG's specs. Dual layer DVDs are DVD-9s.
Post by: mantidor on June 10, 2005, 07:47:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MrMojoRisingQuote
By the way to end all of the CONSTANT flames and bs on your forum about the “Nintendo On”. IT IS NOT FAKE, it’s the new Virtual Boy and it WILL work hand-in-hand with the Rev. although it will not be required to play games. It will just add a whole new dynamic to the games coupled with the controller. The guys who made it finished it in a month and a half on a Area 51 CPU. I thought it was funny people thought that it was made in a week by one person, what a joke if one did all that it would’ve probably taken 6 months or so.
Wow, wowitty wow wow...this just proves this guy is for real.
LOL if I hadnt seen all the other stuff the guy who made the Nintendo ON fake, Id probably believe that.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 10, 2005, 08:06:10 AM
Yeah I'm sure Nintendo wouldn't be able to figure out who this guy is unless several people who worked on Metroid Prime got fired for drugs and are now working with Factor 5.
"My only worry with cube-mapping is since Nintendo patented it if they will make it available to other developers that are interested in Rev. rather than just using it on first-party development. There are a lot of other techniques and that are patented by Nintendo that allow unbelievable graphics on low horsepower and low electrical consumption but the question still stands are Nintendo going to make these available to other 3rd party developers."
All this might be complete bullocks but, regardless of what the Rev, this concern is legit. Nintendo is pretty infamous for "hiding" stuff from third parties so that their own games look better. That sort of thing really doesn't help Nintendo's already poor relationship with third parties so I hope they're not going to do anything like that.
This guy's suggesting that Nintendo's going to embrace the mod community with the Rev. That's actually a pretty cool idea. His "virtual boy" thing sounds kind of like the Sega Master System 3D glasses. The idea though that no games require it and it just works with every game is a good idea. A lot of us were complaining about the "3D screen" idea but if 3D is just handled by an optional piece of hardware and no game requires it and games don't actually have to be programmed for then I think it's fine. It's a neat idea.
The third party support though sounds way too good to be true. Bungie talking to Nintendo? Yeah right.
Post by: Artimus on June 10, 2005, 08:33:18 AM
Post by: K-RPG on June 10, 2005, 10:07:36 AM
Quote
"6GB HD Dual Layered, Custom Panasonic Optical Discs"
Bull. Rev discs are 12cm, they confirmed that. A DVD at 12cm can hold 9 GB, a HD disc 30 (HDDVD) or 50 (BRD).
Consider me ignorant if I am, but never did Nintendo say DVD, as the media they were going to use. It wouldn't be the first time they took an existing product, and dumbed it down for a legitimate reason (GameCube Optical Discs for example).
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on June 10, 2005, 10:14:34 AM
I'm with K-rpg, I believe they'll go with their own custom variation of either HD-DVDs or Blue-ray, I'm leanin towards hd-dvd though as it doesn't benefit Sony in anyway. The fact that they'll then be selling an add on (I guess) in the future to allow you to view dvds could mean that they can provide a dvd player now for purchase and a hd-dvd player or a blue ray player in the future depending on how the disc battle goes.
Post by: ABlueflameA on June 10, 2005, 11:14:40 AM
Personally, I'm expecting a Revolution with no DVD movie playback built in, but something similar to Xbox where you could spend 20-30 bucks to get a remote and some very small add-on device to enable it to play movies. However, even including a remote for DVD playback may be optional as you could possibly use your DS.
Touch screen remote anyone?
-Blueflame
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 10, 2005, 11:40:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ABlueflameA
However, even including a remote for DVD playback may be optional as you could possibly use your DS.
Touch screen remote anyone?
-Blueflame
Now that is somethign that I haven't thought of yet. Imagine being able to not only use the DS as a touch screen remote, but also commanding the sub-menu's for the DVD player, such as sub-titles or surround sound on the second screen without it popping up on the main screen, disctracting other viewers from the movie experience.
Im sure someone else could flesh that out a little more...
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on June 10, 2005, 12:02:28 PM
Post by: ThePerm on June 10, 2005, 12:12:21 PM
twiggy ramirez had the best setup though....he had eveyr game system...
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 10, 2005, 12:12:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Stimutacs Addict
shoot, with the DS controlling my home gaming setup, I can finally feel like all those cool black guys on MTV cribs
I've kicked in several 'MTV Cribs' worthy homes before, (I was the only Black person there) and trust me that is not only the way feel, but the way to Live.
Post by: jasonditz on June 10, 2005, 01:44:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: thepogaQuote
Originally posted by: jasonditz
Actually Heretic 2
Heretic 2 screens
Ummm... this game was made in 1998. Running a 7 year old game "100 fps" in 1024x768 is nothing to brag about.
Well, it is on an 8 year old computer.
The point was this though:
On a Powerbook G3 (same processor, non-upgradable video card) its unplayable at 1024x768
On a Powermac G4 1 Ghz with its original video card its good for maybe 30-40 fps
Yet on the Powermac G3 400 Mhz with a high end video card, the game can give you a much better performance.
I know a Powermac G3 with the best video card in the world isn't a god-like game machine (and the simple fact that most games are compiled with Altivec in mind keeps newer titles from running on them).
The point is, at any given time, the CPU is nowhere near the bottleneck on a system as far as games are concerned. And if the question is which can produce more convincing graphics, I'll take more RAM and a better video card over a faster CPU any day.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 11, 2005, 12:14:42 AM
Ahahahahaa! Yes, that explains why almost every game and video card nowadays supports cube mapping (aka cube environment mapping).
K-RPG: A DVD is the smallest dual layer medium reasonably available. Since they are copying the physical size of a DVD I don't think they'll go with anything that provides less space than a DVD. The GC discs were physically smaller, the Rev discs aren't. Going with a HD disc format (BRD/HDDVD) or a derivative would offer them even more space and make the discs much harder to copy.
Post by: oohhboy on June 11, 2005, 08:51:12 AM
A I said before, go install and play some WC3. Hell Starcraft in a massive battle. See you play that without slow down on that computer.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 11, 2005, 09:18:40 AM
Post by: jasonditz on June 11, 2005, 10:26:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
Dude, you need the CPU for AI, physics, pathfinding and God knows what esle the GPU doesn't handle. How intelligent do you think the enemies are in Heretic? Beyond the basic see and charge while shooting stroomtrooper AI, it has nothing else. How many guys do you fight at the same time, Probaly no more than 6 at anyone time.
A I said before, go install and play some WC3. Hell Starcraft in a massive battle. See you play that without slow down on that computer.
Starcraft runs flawlessly on it. That's more a factor of RAM than CPU though.
And if you want to talk AI, just look at the AI Capcom was able to stick in RE4 with virtually the same CPU.
And I'm not saying the CPU doesn't matter at all... I'm just saying the original statement that the CPU is the bottleneck for games nowadays is ridiculous.
Given the following two options for a nextgen system:
1. CPU identical to the Cube with 3x the RAM and a vastly superior GPU
or
2. Same GPU and RAM as the Cube with a vastly superior CPU
which did you think would gave you a better experience?
Post by: KDR_11k on June 12, 2005, 02:08:54 AM
AI? I thought they used the Serious Sam logic for enemies? (okay, perhaps Doom 3, they're better at pathfinding)
Post by: HereticPB on June 12, 2005, 10:36:49 AM
Custom IBM Power PC "Gekko"
.018 micron IBM Copper Wire Technology Manufacturing Process
485 MHz Clock Frequency
1125 Dmips (Dhrystone 2.1) CPU Capacity
32-bit Integer & 64-bit Floating-point Internal Data Precision
External Bus
1.3GB/second peak bandwidth ( 32-bit address space, 64-bit data bus 162 MHz clock)
Internal Cache
L1:Instruction 32KB, Data 32KB (8 way)
L2: 256KB(2 way)
Total Cache 192KB
Custom ATI/Nintendo "Flipper"
.18 micron NEC Embedded DRAM Process
162 MHz Clock Frequency
Embedded Frame Buffer
~2MB 6.2ns (1T-SRAM)
Embedded Texture Cache
~1MB 6.2ns (1T-SRAM)
10.4GB/second (peak) Texture Read Bandwidth
2.4GB/second (peak) Main Memory Bandwidth
24-bit color, 24-bit Buffer Pixel Depth
Image Processing Functions
Fog, Subpixel Anti-aliasing, 8 Hardware Lights, Alpha Blending, Virtual Texture Design, Multi-texturing, Bump Mapping, Environment Mapping, MIP Mapping, Bilinder Filtering, Trilinear Filtering, Anisotropic Filtering, Real-time Hardware Texture Decompression (S3TC), Real-time Decompression of Display List, HW 3-line Deflickering filter.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 13, 2005, 04:17:20 AM
Post by: HereticPB on June 13, 2005, 09:43:10 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2005, 01:25:35 AM
Post by: HereticPB on June 14, 2005, 10:15:06 PM
KDR You got the first part right.
Post by: ThePerm on June 19, 2005, 09:52:52 PM
Post by: Rancid Planet on June 21, 2005, 12:00:34 AM
And might I add...WORD.
Post by: OG_OriginalGamer on June 22, 2005, 08:09:05 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 23, 2005, 05:36:41 AM
Post by: OG_OriginalGamer on June 23, 2005, 08:29:39 AM
And in what way are they to high, to high for Nintendo or to high in general.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 23, 2005, 08:43:57 AM
I think it would be interesting if Nintendo came up with Specs that are close to Xbox360 at a cheaper price because they aren't going for HD support. Then games could still look better because Fill-rates and processing power won't be wasted on a TV that won't enhance game performance at all.
Post by: OG_OriginalGamer on June 23, 2005, 09:25:29 PM
Specification divulges which according to today, no matter what the heaven next generation " the revolution " the main engine uses the graph chip, it grinds sends the code number is RN520, among, N represents no matter what the heaven meaning, RN520 by completely different group team grinds with ATi the R500 sends, RN520 supports 720p and 1080i two kind of HDTV specification, inside constructs 2 graphs cores, between this 2 graphs core uses ATi is similar to the PC R520 AMR technology connection. RN520 and R500 same, all inside constructed ecDram, took frame buffer, in the middle RN520 ecDram capacity achieves 16MB.
No matter what the heaven next generation " the revolution " the main engine processor based on IBM the G5 processor overhead construction, inside constructs 4 cores, each core operating frequency 2.5gHz, alone enjoys the 128KB one level of buffers, 4 cores share the 512KB two levels of buffers. No matter what the heaven next generation " the revolution " the main engine processor and the graph chip shares the 512MB system memory. Moreover, no matter what the heaven next generation " the revolution " the main engine has the independence the audio frequency processor, but also has 1 32MB the memory the PPU physics processor, copes with the complex physical computation. No matter what the heaven greatly will unfold in this month E3 demonstrates no matter what heaven next generation " revolution " main engine prototype design.
http://www.unika.com.cn/article/article.php/2572
You'll need google to translate or some other translation program.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 23, 2005, 10:42:38 PM
A quad-core G5 will produce enough heat to vaporize the system within seconds, with cooling it's too large for the Rev case unless those cores are even worse than the PPE stuff. Dual GPUs make little sense as well since the splitting stuff is too inefficient. It'd be cheaper to make a single GPU that's much faster.
Besides, use too many processing units and you get the Saturn. The Rev is supposed to be easy to develop for, four CPUs and two GPUs go against that. Never mind there's little processor load outside of physics in most games so you don't need a big CPU AND PPU. The stuff that's left for the CPU would be a nightmare for an in-order CPU like the PPE and something more advanced than a PPE wouldn't be feasible in a four core setup.
Post by: OG_OriginalGamer on June 24, 2005, 09:30:07 AM
Post by: bmfrosty on June 24, 2005, 02:22:00 PM
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453
It makes me feel warm inside to know that in order to put together multiple 3.2ghz cores the competition is going to have to cripple their processors. Once again Nintendo is putting together a system where developers won't have to fight every inch of the way to bring the power to the forefront.
Yay.
Post by: ThePerm on June 24, 2005, 02:26:40 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 24, 2005, 08:23:44 PM
