Post by: Ian Sane on March 29, 2005, 01:36:46 PM
One interesting point is that the Rev will use the same application program interfaces (APIs) as the Cube. I don't really know what that means but if it makes games cheaper to make and attracts third party support then I'm all for it. The suggestion of a better reception from developers than Iwata expected is positive particularly since he earlier this year suggested the concept of no third party support.
The other interesting parts have to do with the controller. Iwata feels controllers have gotten too complex for non-gamers. My natural response to that is "and I should care why?" since I'm not a non-gamer and don't care if others don't "get it" provided I do.
Another interesting quote is "For the next-generation console, we plan to introduce a friendly user interface so that, for example, a mother who's watching her child playing a game might say, 'Oh, I'd like to try that too’."
This quote makes me fear the posibillity of Nintendo dumbing things down. The truth is I like it when my mother isn't interested in something I am. She has much lower expectations of entertainment than I do. We like a fair bit of the same things but I find the BEST stuff is often stuff she's not interested in but I am. She listens to Celine Dion, finds Garfield funny, and is turned off by non-linear plots in movies. She likes things that are non-offensive and simple to get. I like some things like that too but I find that often anything that appeals to a very wide audience does so at the expense of being interesting. If everyone likes it it has to be bland. If everyone understands it it has to be dumb. That's just how it works.
I like the fact that not everyone likes Nintendo games. I wish Nintendo had a better public image and sold more consoles to attract more third parties but I don't want everyone to like them. If everyone liked them they would be boring like EA. Well actually I wouldn't care if everyone liked them for who they are but that probably won't happen.
So there's a problem. How can Nintendo make a controller that everyone, regardless of experience (or intelligence), can use that can effectively play the types of games they make now? A one button controller for example would be easy for anyone to understand BUT you can't play Zelda on it, or Metroid, or Mario or virtually ANY of Nintendo's franchise games. Well you CAN play Zelda but only if they significantly alter what Zelda is.
Anyone can play and enjoy Pong for example but it would be very boring if Pong was all there is. Entertainment is insteresting when it only appeals to certain people. It's boring when it appeals to everyone. I'm worried that Nintendo is changing from Led Zeppelin to Air Supply. I read Iwata's quote and I picture adult contemporary gaming.
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 29, 2005, 02:14:04 PM
I prefer to think of it in terms of pizza... catering to everyone, hardcore gamers included.
Do you seriously think they're just going to abandon their existing fanbase? Why should everyone else's gain have to be our loss? I've yet to see any indication that Nintendo's sacrificing us, especially after all the amazing games they released this gen.
I think Donkey Kong JB is a good indication of where they're heading next gen... look at the simplicity of the controls, it's just two big buttons and a clap sensor, and yet it works amazingly well and has tons of depth.
I also like this quote: "Iwata said the Revolution came in for more positive reviews from developers than he had anticipated."
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 29, 2005, 02:35:29 PM
Guess what, Ian? You need to pull your head out of your ass and realize this isn't "Ninty's chance to please only Ian"...They are trying to expand the market, and to say "Oh I do not agree because I don't care about non-gamers" is hilarious...And I love how you keep on assuming "simplicity = bad game" when Jungle Beat proves the exact opposite...
The truth is I like it when my mother isn't interested in something I am.
So is this supposed to be a reason? Oh noes, my mom likes something I do...IT IS NOT COOL ANYMORE!
How can Nintendo make a controller that everyone, regardless of experience (or intelligence), can use that can effectively play the types of games they make now?
*once AGAIN points at Jungle Beat*
And you are seriously underestimating the ideas behind controllers...You don't need lots of buttons for functionality...
Post by: nemo_83 on March 29, 2005, 02:50:02 PM
About the controller. When will Nintendo realise that there is a standard number of buttons and mechanics that have to be on the controller to attract the base of the market. The hardcore gamers will not buy a console that does not meet standards. If old people can opperate a keyboard then they should be able to figure out their kids game controller. It is a law of nature that because our thumb is so flexible that it will be used for more things on the controller such as dual analog and four face buttons. Sorry Nintendo, you were the ones who said the Atari controller was ludicrously simple with its stiff joystick and solitary button. Nintendo invented the dpad, shoulder buttons, and four face button layout. People are not going to choose the controller that is the most simple. That is not what gamers think, and you cannot sell a console without the gamers. Gamers choose controllers based on their functionality. They think, "does this give me the advantage." I'm not talking about turbo buttons. I am speaking about how Nintendo shorted us a shoulder button, analog stick buttons, and a normal dpad with the GameCube. Those things are disadvantages and handicaps in the eyes of gamers and developers and are a contributing factor to why nothing sells on GameCube.
Post by: GamecubeBoy2005 on March 29, 2005, 02:51:35 PM
Post by: Deguello on March 29, 2005, 03:08:54 PM
Post by: Galford on March 29, 2005, 03:10:23 PM
The bit about the API being the same??? What kind of API does Nintendo use? An OpenGL-ish one or custom propiertary?
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 29, 2005, 03:10:26 PM
As for the controller, maybe you should wait until it's unveiled before you start complaining, hmmm? Perhaps its intuitiveness does away with the need for complexity.
Post by: Djunknown on March 29, 2005, 04:37:23 PM
While Jungle beat is an example of easy to access controls for anyone, Jungle beat's a cut and dry platformer. The irony is is that most likely only the hardcore will be willing to continually reach higher scores. Casual gamers will be satisfied by getting through it, say it was a nice game while it lasted, and move on.
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are you guys like nintendo makers cause you guys sound like people who invented this stuff
We wish. We just have too much time on our hands
Its hard to comment on what the controller, since all we have are rumor's and Iwata's teasing. Let's face it: No one has a F'ing clue what this thing looks like, or how it will fully function.
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How can Nintendo make a controller that everyone, regardless of experience (or intelligence), can use that can effectively play the types of games they make now?
If we're good little boys and [some] girls, maybe we'll find out at e3? Or at least, we can analyze the Revolution software and make some more concrete speculation?
Post by: Ian Sane on March 29, 2005, 04:49:00 PM
Simplicity does not = bad game. But inability to be complex = bad console. Jungle Beat's cool but you couldn't play ANY game on the bongos. Yoshi's Island is a better platformer and you could not play it with the bongos. You couldn't play Metroid Prime or Pikmin or Super Mario 64 or A Link to the Past on the bongos. You can make good simple games (IE: Tapper is one of my favourite games ever and it only uses one button and a joystick) but it is limiting to ONLY allow the creation of simple games. I can play Pong or Pac-Man or Space Invaders on the Cube controller. I cannot play Wind Waker on the NES controller. If you limit the controller you limit the ENTIRE library of the console. Sure you'll get some good games but certain "complex" games will be impossible to make. A library of entirely "simple" games SUCKS. It's one dimensional and limiting. If I want that I'll buy an Atari 2600.
And even if the console can play complex games it would still suck if simple games were Nintendo's focus because their best games are reasonably complex. They have such talent and it would be a complete waste for them to focus on going back to point based games that became outdated in the mid 80s. Not only do I want a Nintendo console capable of complex games I want Nintendo to make them. Once in a while that's fine but Iwata talks like the days of Nintendo classics as we know them are over and simple games is Nintendo's future. Jungle Beat's cool but I don't want it to be the template for other Nintendo games to follow.
Post by: darknight06 on March 29, 2005, 04:49:21 PM
"A recent magazine article sparked widespread speculation that the Revolution's controller would feature no buttons other than a DS-style touch screen."
I really wish the media would can it with these speculations. Remember this thing's supposed to be backwards compatible. The controller ain't going to change a whole heck of a lot at least for Cube support. Besides, the DS already has a touch screen and all something like that would do is jack the price up even more than necessary, which is something they don't traditionally do with consoles at launch. Not to mention the fact it wouldn't be able to recognize more than one input at all rendering it useless without buttons. And I'm not worried about online either, DS will be online and the Revolution will follow it's plan.
I swear, some of ya'll will work yourselves into a coma.
Post by: nemo_83 on March 29, 2005, 05:00:22 PM
Simply LANing over the internet is not enough. You need to have access to statistics, user and friend information, forums, and other options. Options is the key word. If you are into random gaming done by some computer have at it. I like the ability to log on and look up who is online. I hope that when Nintendo says community they mean something similar to nintendo.com forums. I believe one can if one chooses to get involved more deaply into online gaming. I admire the idea that you don't even have to plug in to play let alone the prospect of not having to mess with all the setup if one chooses not to so that one can just hit power and play; but I don't want to see Nintendo offer a formless online plan allowing third parties to charge for their own service. I like the idea of free online and believe if Nintendo can do it right then everyone can, but I hear a lot of skepticism from fans of MS's Xbox Live subscribers who enjoy that there is one bill. I argue with them that with Nextbox online will not be standard since one must buy a harddrive to go online. They argue that third parties will start charging for their own online or won't go online at all for Revolution. I hope they are wrong. But these quotes from Iwata are only going to fan flame wars.
Nintendo needs to confirm past comments that there will be no touch screen or screens on the Revolution controller. If Iwata wants to say something to sell Revolution he should be talking about how Nintendo is going to keep present gamers gaming because if the PSP launch is any indication the same old same old approach from MS and Sony will fail with the next consoles. This leaves Nintendo as the only hope left for gamers, but if they do something stupid and JUST slap a touch screen on the center of the controller people are just going to keep playing what they already own and not buy the new stuff from any of the companies. Graphics are not enough to excite the gamer anymore. Niether are gimmicks. People are looking for THE solution. People are looking for THE revolution. If noone delivers then the door opens for a new era of gaming not owned by Sega, Nintendo, MS, or Sony.
Post by: zakkiel on March 29, 2005, 05:02:19 PM
Anyone who seriously believes the Rev isn't going online needs to have their head examined anyway, so who cares about exactly what Iwata says about it? Besides which, I believe he did say that they intended to go online and make it fully acessible - Gamespot just paraphrased that part rather than quoting.
Post by: Caillan on March 29, 2005, 06:36:41 PM
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Guess what, Ian? You need to pull your head out of your ass and realize this isn't "Ninty's chance to please only Ian"...They are trying to expand the market, and to say "Oh I do not agree because I don't care about non-gamers" is hilarious...And I love how you keep on assuming "simplicity = bad game" when Jungle Beat proves the exact opposite...
He didn't say that. He said he's concerned that in catering to 'non-gamers' Nintendo will neglect their core audience. You consistently misinterpret that statement.
Post by: foolish03 on March 29, 2005, 06:45:06 PM
Post by: ThePerm on March 29, 2005, 08:04:58 PM
Post by: darknight06 on March 29, 2005, 08:07:38 PM
Post by: Savior on March 29, 2005, 08:20:28 PM
Quote
.They are trying to expand the market,
fine fine fine... expanding the market is good BUT not at the cost your hardcore base. Nintendo needs a balance between the DK Jungle Beats and the Metroid Primes... Making a system full of simplistic games with two buttons might add moms and non gamers, but you risk having your base jump ship. And then that means your "Expanded market" means loosing market.
I trust Nintendo will field a balance. Take the DS for example, it had games that might atract Non Gamers, but stuff like Mario Kart, Metroid, Castlevania, and Animal Crossing are 100 percent Hardcore
So a Balance is nececary, and iwata needs to shut up. I personally hope Reggie gets more air time from now on. Reggie knows how to speak, and do it well. Everytime Iwata speaks it leads to controversy and discussion and doubt. Let him stay in Japan in an office somewhere and do his president thing. Let Reggie take point on all press.
Post by: ThePerm on March 29, 2005, 08:31:30 PM
Also companies like ea who have all their code organised into little banks all set up neatly for updating.....well they just have to update it for more. The differnce between what rev will do vs gamecube.....more ai, more polygons, more lighting, more shading efffects, more textures...other than that alot will be the same
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on March 29, 2005, 08:37:59 PM
As for the online debate. Think of it this way, the DS is supposed to give a look at where Nintendo is going with their online ideas. SquareEnix is helping them in some way or another as Miyamoto has stated. If Squareenix is willing to invest its time, money, and effort behind Nintendo for its online service, I'm sure it isn't some extremely basic LAN gaming. Also, Gamespy is helping develope the online aspect of the DS. I'm sure Nintendo isn't paying Gamespy to develope some extremely basic LAN network
As for the controller debate, who knows what it is. Anyone's guess is as good as the next man's. Nintendo has been the only company to set the standards for controllers so I'll just go on and assume they know what they're doing
As for Nintendo neglecting their core audience in favor of "non gamers", don't worry so much. I'm sure Nintendo will continue outsourcing games in order to have these genres filled. This will leave them to continue doing what they do best (supporting us hardcore fans) while still being able to support the "non gamers".
Anyways, on to the good news that I got from the article. I'm loving the fact that Iwata has been suprised at the responce they have recieved from developers. In this current genneration where graphics and tech are all that developrs seem to be worried about, its good to see that developers are showing a positive responce to this Revolution concept. Nintendo must be doing something right. We'll find out soon enough though.
Post by: darknight06 on March 29, 2005, 08:46:51 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on March 29, 2005, 09:27:49 PM
Post by: darknight06 on March 30, 2005, 02:47:37 AM
Post by: slingshot on March 30, 2005, 03:31:19 AM
Many times IWATA is quoted, and that quote is translated, and the quoted, and maybe translated again, and then quoted,
but each time it is "interpreted" by the writer for his readers. by the time we hear anything, it is quite different than the
original comment. Give me a video clip of Iwata speaking English, and I will take it more seriously than regurgitated ""s.
I believe Iwata has been saying for a while now that the REV will NOT have a touch screen. I know I read it somewhere.
I think it was in his KEYNOTE speach?
Nintendo DOES make simplistic games- they always have- AND they make awesome violent RES EVIL games, and cool
Metroid Prime games, and awesome! Zelda games. They have diversity unlike any other system! If you have to own a
console that only makes hardcore games, Nintendo is not for you. But if you are okay with the fact that Nintendo makes
some of the coolest hard core games, and happens to make some really awesome I LOVE HALO 2 games that you don't care about,
and will never buy- but make the company tons of money so they can continue to be in the race, and make games for you-
then buy Nintendo.
Does it matter what Nintendo does outside of your gaming interests? I don't sit here and wish that nintendo ONLY makes
games for hardcore gamers- let them make games for everyone. They aren't sacrificing anything. IF they want to source
out to DIsney to make some rad I LOVE HALO 2 games- they havn't wasted any money or time doing that.
I can't understand why people think that Nintendo is making a choice between styles of games. Some consoles focus on
genres, Nintendo focuses on versatility- that is why they will always be around.
(As far as the online debate- ) I will buy it I could care less if they go online for myselft- so I guess I'm still buying.
Post by: slingshot on March 30, 2005, 03:38:53 AM
another article as speculating that there could be a DS style touchscreen- That doesn't even merit speculation. WHY?
you cannot use a touchscreen controller, because you would have to look at the touch screen to see where the buttons are,
and you would not be looking at the game screen- so you would not be able to play the game- and it would not be
'intuitive'! Gyros however would be intuitive to nongamers, and gamers. But we will only wait to see- and There are a
lot of words in this forum about the REV controller- that are way off base- so I hope you Nay-sayers are hungry.
Post by: ThePerm on March 30, 2005, 03:53:57 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on March 30, 2005, 05:49:55 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 30, 2005, 06:02:09 AM
~~Mario 128 (could be in the works at Tokyo EAD)
~~Nintendogs
~~Mario Kart DS
~~Animal Crossing DS
~~Super Mario Brothers DS
~~Super Princess Peach (which could technically be done by another dev...It hasn't been announced yet)
~~Zelda XII (which I could argue, but I won't
)I wonder if EAD (the Kyoto branch at least) will have anymore GC projects...
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 30, 2005, 06:56:51 AM
As for the controller, I heard also slingshot that Iwata stated that the Rev. won't use a touchscreen. It's in an interview that was held a couple day to a week after the GDC keynote.
What I like most about this thread is how people's faith can easily be rattled around. Let me ask a series of questions for all those that feel Nintendo is going to abandon them......
~What does the word "expand" mean?
~Nintendo wants to compete with the PS3. Does going for a different market of users than Sony, compete with Sony? (Hint: look at DS vs. PSP)
~Why would developers be interested in developing for a console who's sole goal is too attract those that don't play games?
~Nintendo Rev. is going online (Nemo your crazy!
). What type of games could possible be so popular for multiplayer, that Online is basically a must?~Would Nintendo make a profit next gen if their hardcor base of fans (the biggest base just so you know), jumped ship due to neglect?
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 30, 2005, 08:18:07 AM
I was going to use examples, but let's just think of Nintendo. NES and SNES - everyone owned them, even nongamers played them since it was still simple, but they're considered the best time in video games and it's Nintendo's golden age.
Nintendo is a company that can maintain quality and quantity at the same time. Not many can, but they've already proven that they can. I dunno why everyone's so whiney and worried.
Post by: couchmonkey on March 30, 2005, 11:12:30 AM
1. There's nothing more intuitive about a touch screen controller than a regular controller if it can display ANY set of input developers want...that just makes it harder to use because the layout is always changing on you.
2. Nintendo is well aware that touch is an important part of gaming. They've always developed controllers with distinctive button shapes and layouts because being able to feel the controller is key to using it without always looking at it. A touch-screen gives you no way to play without looking down at the controller.
3. If Nintendo thinks customizable game controls via touch screen are really the wave of the future, why isn't it doing more games like that on the DS?
I'm glad to hear developers are happy with Nintendo's new idea. Third party support is possibly the biggest key to success with game consoles.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 30, 2005, 11:46:17 AM
Post by: KnowsNothing on March 30, 2005, 03:25:23 PM
- the controller will not have a touchscreen
- when they say wifi they mean internet
Mmmmay? I suggest listend to TEH REGGIE (I love how he doesn't use any articles before mentioning Ninty systems~)
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on March 30, 2005, 03:30:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Iwata feels controllers have gotten too complex for non-gamers. My natural response to that is "and I should care why?" since I'm not a non-gamer and don't care if others don't "get it" provided I do.
Guess what, Ian? You need to pull your head out of your ass and realize this isn't "Ninty's chance to please only Ian"...They are trying to expand the market, and to say "Oh I do not agree because I don't care about non-gamers" is hilarious...And I love how you keep on assuming "simplicity = bad game" when Jungle Beat proves the exact opposite...
The truth is I like it when my mother isn't interested in something I am.
So is this supposed to be a reason? Oh noes, my mom likes something I do...IT IS NOT COOL ANYMORE!
How can Nintendo make a controller that everyone, regardless of experience (or intelligence), can use that can effectively play the types of games they make now?
*once AGAIN points at Jungle Beat*
And you are seriously underestimating the ideas behind controllers...You don't need lots of buttons for functionality...
Okay, I'm ready to make the same arguments as Ian. And the constant reference to Jungle Beat pisses me off. Sure! It was a great game. I'll give you that. But I don't want to play Zelda with a goddamn sword shaped one-button controller, I want to play with a freaking controller that has like 12 buttons on it.
Which is why I disagree with Ian on one part...Nintendo's not stupid. They're not going to change Zelda or something so drastically it's not even the same game anymore. And lose 75% of their fan base. The other 25 % is going to include all the "OMG LOL NINTY IS GOD MAKE LOVE TO ME IWATA" types. Bill included. (no offense, I just mean you're probably the biggest Nintendo fanboy ever going to read this)
And frankly I'm extremely pleased that 3rd parties are positive towards Rev.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 30, 2005, 03:34:27 PM
Chuuuuu...
12 button controller, that's a laugh...Won't be happening...
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on March 30, 2005, 03:42:48 PM
That's 11. I realize the latter three aren't buttons but that's what I meant. You get my gist.
What pisses me off almost as much as the constant comparison to Jungle Beat is the constant "durrrrr maybe it's a touch screeeen controller eheheheeeee?"
1) Nintendo believes in innovation, not using the same ideas over and over again. We're not going to see touch screen technology beyond the DS, unless it's included on some sort of next-gen DS.
2) It won't work. Many (in fact most, now that I think about it) games require that two buttons/button+control stick/etc be used at the same time. Touch screen technology hasn't progressed far enough two sense two points of contact/input at the same time. Try it on PictoChat with your spare stylus or something, won't work.
3) IWATA F'ING SAID IT WOULDN'T BE ONE. Too lazy to c/p the quote, but it's in the N-Sider.com Revolution FAQ I believe.
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 30, 2005, 04:42:00 PM
I think some of you are deliberately misinterpreting the point of the Jungle Beat comments. The point isn't that bongos are perfect for every game, the point is that even a controller as simple as a bongo can provide for some amazingly deep and fun gameplay.
Post by: nemo_83 on March 30, 2005, 07:48:32 PM
As far as online goes, I know that Nintendo is going to go online with Revolution. But how do you define online? What services are still available for free? Will there be added services available for a small fee? Will we be able to trade maps or weapons online? Will we be able to make a stage using a third party level editor and charge other gamers online to download it? Will third parties be kept from charging gamers just to play online? Will third parties still be able to charge for downloads?
Post by: vudu on April 01, 2005, 08:18:26 AM
QuoteFor a game like Metroid Prime (where the D-pad and C-stick are used as if they were four buttons each, that makes a total of sixteen buttons plus an analog stick.
Um...a, b, x, y, r, l, z, start/pause. d-pad + control stick + c stick.
That's 11. I realize the latter three aren't buttons but that's what I meant. You get my gist.
Post by: zakkiel on April 01, 2005, 03:11:25 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 01, 2005, 03:26:15 PM
Unless you're Microsoft.
Post by: IceCold on April 01, 2005, 10:42:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Savior
So a Balance is nececary, and iwata needs to shut up. I personally hope Reggie gets more air time from now on. Reggie knows how to speak, and do it well. Everytime Iwata speaks it leads to controversy and discussion and doubt. Let him stay in Japan in an office somewhere and do his president thing. Let Reggie take point on all press.
Damn, Savior. You're making it sound like Iwata is the spawn of Satan. Reggie says exactly the same thing as Iwata, except in ENGLISH. When Iwata does his interviews in Japanese, it gets lost in translation. If you were Japanese, you would probably be questioning what Reggie was saying as well, but to us it's normal...
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 01, 2005, 10:57:29 PM
