Post by: Jonnyboy117 on March 03, 2005, 07:21:17 PM
Can't Touch This
Post by: Shecky on March 03, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
Edit: Mutually exclusive over the entire play time... as in like an initial preference or control setup.
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 03, 2005, 07:46:26 PM
I remember I didn't like analog sticks much at first... but now I can't go back to dpads.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 03, 2005, 07:51:21 PM
However I think the big problem with Nintendo's early DS games is that it is clear they designed the DS in the wrong order. They clearly thought "let's be different" and added a touchscreen without any real ideas ahead of time to justify the concept. What they should have done is designed some game ideas first and then come to the conclusion that a touchscreen was the ideal way to play these games. The idea spawns the invention. No one invents something and then thinks up how to use it.
I think another problem is the trap of feeling one HAS to use the touchscreen and the microphone. Why does Warioware Touched focus so much on touchscreen games? Wouldn't it provide more variety to mix things up a bit? Have a run of normal games, a run of touchscreen games, etc. Though I also think the WarioWare concept itself by design is prone to becoming stale very quickly. When each new game requires so many microgames one is going to run out of ideas really quickly particularly when you see how quickly they've made new games in the series.
When I first heard of the touchscreen I immediately thought of it as a clever way to implement mouse functionality on a portable system where because of size a mouse isn't possible. So I think an ideal solution is to treat the touchscreen like a mouse. Create mouse-friendly games like strategy or tycoon games. Let the bottom screen work like a PC tablet or a laptop touchpad and have a mouse cursor on the top screen where all the action takes place. And for those that want the option let the player pick if they want that method or if they want to play on the touchscreen itself and remove the absraction.
Though I imagine Nintendo likes the fact that touchscreen control is less abstract. They've said before they want to target non-gamers and removing abstraction is going to be more appealing to the group. I just worry that they may be focusing too much on that group and that the DS (and possibly the Revolution) may neglect longtime gamers who prefer more complex gameplay and abtraction.
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 03, 2005, 07:52:42 PM
You do make some good points, though. While I think some games should certainly have you paying attention to what you do on the touch screen, or at least have portions of the game that do, focusing control on one half and action on the other is a good idea. I think the Bob-omb's Away mini-game in Mario 64 DS did an excellent job of using control on the bottom screen, focus on the top screen, with occasional action on the lower screen.
Post by: Caillan on March 03, 2005, 07:56:25 PM
"But for the most part, I’m not convinced that the touch screen offers anything useful to the DS that couldn’t be done (and probably better) with an analog joystick."
I think a mouse would be a better comparison, but really the touch pad is unique. The thing is, the touch screen only has one state when you are in control of the cursor: when the stylus is physically touching it. With a mouse, you can use the cursor to hover over an object or use one of two clicks. there's also usually a wheel. It would perhaps have been nice if the stylus' tip could have been pushed down for a 'click' effect.
An analogue stick can't do many of the things even the current DS games require you to do. Rubbing or slicing would be extremely awkward on the Gamecube, because you'd need both a stick and a button to do poorly what the stylus can do by itself on the DS. This isn't to say that the touch screen is actually as useful as an anolouge stick, though.
"There should be more games on the DS that don't use the touch screen..."
The problem with not using the touch function is that you're stuck with either a tiny screen or a larger, but horribly disjointed one.
I'm really liking all the editorials, by the way.
Post by: nemo_83 on March 03, 2005, 10:23:13 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on March 04, 2005, 12:57:07 AM
So I pretty much agree with everything. Saying touch-control "sucks" is a bit harsh, but you knew it was harsh when you said it, sooooo...*shrugs*
Quote
I’m not convinced that the touch screen offers anything useful to the DS that couldn’t be done (and probably better) with an analog joystick
Animal Crossing. Using the second screen as a touch-sensative menu is not a mind-shattering idea, but it'll work a hell of a lot better than it did on the GC
So there are games that use the touch controls in innovative ways, such as Touch and Go, and then there are games like Animal Crossing or any RTS that will use the touch screen as a easier way to do the same we've been doing for a while on the go. I think the fact that this is a handheld adds alot; we've never been able to play an RTS on our GBA. I have to go! ZOOOOOOOOM
Post by: Deguello on March 04, 2005, 06:02:09 AM
He speaks, yet he does not know.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 04, 2005, 06:28:06 AM
I don't like this quote at all...You can theoretically do all forms of gaming with the analog stick, but that's not the point...The touch screen 1) allows for a great deal more accuracy, and 2) allows more interaction between the gamer and his or her game...THAT is what makes the touch screen so attractive to non-gamers and gamers alike...
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 04, 2005, 06:28:38 AM
There are games that use the stick that are better with sticks, and there are games that use the touchscreen that are definitely better with the touchscreen. Can you imagine Yoshi with a stick?
I think you're vastly oversimplifying things by relating repetitiveness with lack of abstractness. The same could be said for analog sticks in relation to dpads. The same exact editorial could have been made about analog sticks and fighting games, because don't kid yourself, there already are and will be games that would be completely out of the reach of what analog can offer.
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on March 04, 2005, 06:44:46 AM
Post by: RickPowers on March 04, 2005, 07:08:08 AM
Pocket PC and Palm devices have had touch-screens for YEARS. And yet, if you look at the games available for them, the touch-screen is RARELY used, or is simply used as a pseudo-mouse. I'm not entirely sure what it was that Nintendo thought would be so innovative about putting one in the DS, but the platforms that have been available until now haven't seen much in the way of unique gameplay. I certainly don't discount the possibility that there is room for improvement and imagination, but there is a fair amount of history working against it.
Jonny has a point about your hand being visible when you're playing, which makes it hard to go on autopilot. But for me, I find that my hand is, more often than not, obscuring the screen. In fact, I'm not entirely sure that this isn't why the games on Pocket PC that use the touch-screen aren't turn-based or low-action games!
Quite frankly, I'm kind of surprised that Nintendo would miscalculate in this way, which leads me to beleive that they've got something planned on the first-party side. Unfortunately, the strength of a platform is almost always measured by the third party support, and the slow-trickle of games at the present time is hardly reassuring.
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on March 04, 2005, 07:45:49 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 04, 2005, 09:21:28 AM
Post by: RickPowers on March 04, 2005, 09:33:52 AM
Post by: vudu on March 04, 2005, 09:40:34 AM
QuoteThat's because for your mom and sis (and most casual gamers), pressing buttons and/or using the d-pad is even more abstract than using the stylus.
Everyone I've introduced the DS to would probably love to disagree about the touch screen being ineffective for games, especially casual gamers like my mother and sister.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 04, 2005, 09:42:07 AM
(Kingvudu: MEH! I had to take the picture with my left hand, so I was too busy trying to hold it right to notice...I can take another picture if you'd like...
)
Post by: Ian Sane on March 04, 2005, 10:05:56 AM
It's similiar to when Sony was telling gamers to adapt to their screwed up PSP button. Telling DS gamers to adapt to holding a pen a certain way is not consumer friendly. Plus I find holding my hand side ways to tap downward is hard on my wrist. It's not ergonomic.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on March 04, 2005, 10:07:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: kingvuduThat's because for your mom and sis (and most casual gamers), pressing buttons and/or using the d-pad is even more abstract than using the stylus.
Well, the D-pad is more abstract. That's why it's more immersive. You don't have think about it as much because pressing the D-pad has no real-life correlation. Drawing lines does. Yes, the touch screen is more intuitive and easier to use for casual gamers, and I'm sure that figured heavily in Nintendo's decision to use it. But speaking as a gamer, and writing for an audience largely on the gamer side of the industry, the touch screen has little to offer me so far. Nintendo has yet to show that it can be used to create new types of REAL GAMES (not just mini-games) that will occupy us for hours on end. Maybe Yoshi is the first, we'll see in a couple more weeks.
Also, I don't buy the argument that we'll "get used to" touch input like we did for analog joysticks. When you design a game that has to be displayed on the lower screen in order to be played, the player always has to see his or her hand while playing, no matter how good or "used to" the touch screen he or she has become over the months and years of owning a DS. The visual barrier to immersion is independent of skill with the device. Nintendo was smart to include the upper screen so you could play touch-sensitive games without looking at your hand, but so far there are few examples of games that use the dual screens in this way.
As the DS is developing so far, here's one way to classify the software:
1. Casual games are played on the touch screen.
2. Real games are played on the top screen.
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 04, 2005, 10:21:53 AM
"Also, I don't buy the argument that we'll "get used to" touch input like we did for analog joysticks. When you design a game that has to be displayed on the lower screen in order to be played, the player always has to see his or her hand while playing, no matter how good or "used to" the touch screen he or she has become over the months and years of owning a DS."
If you're saying that seeing your hand takes you away from the game, then not only the DS but the GBA and the PSP all suffer from that problem. It's not like you wear blinders when playing any of them. Just like with the GBA, eventually you'll learn to relegate your hands to your peripheral vision. It's just a matter of seeing your hands as tools to effect onscreen actions, which is pretty much what you do with any videogame. I got the gist of it playing Metroid Hunters at a demo kiosk within minutes, and switching to the top screen control style didn't add anything to the immersion.
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 04, 2005, 10:25:21 AM
The point is that I SHOULDN'T have to tell anyone how to hold it... =P It should be obvious that you need to hold the stylus in a manner that doesn't block the screen...If you complain about it, then you are complaining about the innovation of touch-screen gaming as a whole (since there is no way around it), and that's just plain stupid, in my opinion...And the Sony PSP example is bogus, as using a touch-screen is more akin to becoming adaptive to a new controller rather than adapting to a defect...
Post by: Ian Sane on March 04, 2005, 10:33:39 AM
So we're all stupid or what? Nintendo shouldn't design something with the idea that everyone thinks like you. This isn't like pushing face buttons with your fingers. This has to do with how one holds a pen when they write. There's no universal conclusion that nearly everyone comes to.
How do you work a touchscreen ATM? Do you hold your hand to the side so you can see what the buttons say as you're pressing them or do you read them and then press them with no regard to where your hand is? Most touchscreen input that people are used to consists of reading a screen and then touching it. The whole idea of playing a game with a touchscreen is pretty new so you can't just assume people are going to use some special method that they have never had to use with other touchscreen applications.
Post by: RickPowers on March 04, 2005, 10:34:42 AM
I've been taking classes in Game Design as part of my college track, just for fun. One of my instructors is Hardy Lebel, one of the level designers on Halo, now at Zipper Interactive. One of the things he stressed early on is that the transparency of the controls is one of the keys to making a great game. The DS instantly cripples any attempt at making the controls transparent, because your own freakin' hand will get in the way of the game. Maybe there's a way around this, maybe it's possible to use a touch-screen in a more intuitive (read: less deliberate) way.
I think the point about having to think about how to hold the stylus is very astute as well. The gamer should not be made to fight the controls, and having to "learn" how to hold a stylus is big mistake. Another problem is that even if you want to use a thumb or finger, the way you hold the DS interferes. There is simply no comfortable way to hold the unit and use the touch-screen that works for EVERYONE. Each player needs to find a solution that works for them, which requires a certain amount of experimentation, something I can't imagine everyone will bother with. For the record, I have yet to finish gathering more than a couple of stars in Super Mario 64 DS, because it's so damned hard to hold the device and work the "pseudo-analog control" at the same time!
Here's an idea, though. Touch-pads on PC's have the ability to tell how hard someone is pressing it (by the amount of surface area being touched). Perhaps that could factor into a game mechanic some how.
Post by: vudu on March 04, 2005, 10:48:21 AM
QuoteWow. Can you fail your professor?
One of my instructors is Hardy Lebel, one of the level designers on Halo
QuoteUse the D-pad in conjunction the B button. I found it to be much better than the pseudo-analog.
For the record, I have yet to finish gathering more than a couple of stars in Super Mario 64 DS, because it's so damned hard to hold the device and work the "pseudo-analog control" at the same time!
QuoteIt's a neat idea, but it doesn't seem very accurate. Unless there was a way to calibrate it, a person with big fingers would always trigger a "hard press" regardless of pressure applied. Even then, if my hand begins to cramp while play (or I shift positions) and as a result I'm now using the "palm" of my index finger instead of the tip, the DS will register my input incorrectly. Not to mention that a game with this feature would require the user to use his or her finger instead of the stylus or thumb-strap.
Touch-pads on PC's have the ability to tell how hard someone is pressing it (by the amount of surface area being touched). Perhaps that could factor into a game mechanic some how.
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on March 04, 2005, 11:20:13 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on March 04, 2005, 11:33:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
"Unfortunately Hunters looks like it will be a Metroid mini game for multiplayer rather than a whole Metroid game which leaves us with the problem of there not being a single major killer game that uses the touch screen."
He speaks, yet he does not know.
What are you talking about? Show me some evidence that says Hunters will be a complete Metroid game. I am not being biased for or against Nintendo with my criticism. It is one of the few games that actually uses the touch screen well and I give it that, though tapping the screen to do anything in a game is just about clumsy. For me the game needs to do more than take advantage of the hardware's capabilities for gameplay. The game needs some kind of composition and unity, otherwise it is nothing more than a multiplayer game.
Rick is right about the controls needing to be translucent, but I think so far the problem is developers not using common sense when making their games rather than the problem being the hardware.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 04, 2005, 11:40:04 AM
Once you figure out how to use the controller well, it's a rewarding feeling, and I think your just complain that it's harder than you thought.
Post by: SgtShiversBen on March 04, 2005, 12:06:01 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 04, 2005, 12:09:48 PM
How about YOU give some evidence that proves the game won't be...We don't have a clue how it'll turn out, so you can't claim it'll go one way or the other at this point in time...
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 04, 2005, 12:10:52 PM
"That's because for your mom and sis (and most casual gamers), pressing buttons and/or using the d-pad is even more abstract than using the stylus."
That's exactly my point. Besides, my other friend, owner of a Gamecube and a Playstation 2 and who has played games as long as I have, also enjoyed the DS quite a lot. And my other friends too, though none of them are as familiar with console or handheld gaming.
"one of the level designers on Halo"
I hope he has more credentials than that. The terrible level design is one of the reasons I can hardly stand to play Halo much.
Post by: RickPowers on March 04, 2005, 12:32:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
"one of the level designers on Halo"
I hope he has more credentials than that. The terrible level design is one of the reasons I can hardly stand to play Halo much.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=7559/
He's actually very smart, and while I haven't completely agreed with some things he's said, game design is more art than science, and art is difficult to teach. By the way, IIRC, it was the MULTIPLAYER levels on Halo that he worked on, not the main game. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that's what he said.
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 04, 2005, 12:44:01 PM
I'm not actually a big fan of the multi lay-out, either. Most of the levels bore me, Blood Gulch is one of the few I enjoy. Definitely better than the main game, though.
Post by: nemo_83 on March 04, 2005, 01:09:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
What are you talking about? Show me some evidence that says Hunters will be a complete Metroid game.
How about YOU give some evidence that proves the game won't be...We don't have a clue how it'll turn out, so you can't claim it'll go one way or the other at this point in time...
The name of the game is Hunters and every aspect thus far shown of the game suggests it is not about adventuring in search of upgrades and pieces of a story, but rather killing your friends in deathmatch so Nintendo can push the multiplayer aspect of the hardware. Wasn't this game supposed to be out by now? I've already seen commercials for it on television.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 04, 2005, 01:47:11 PM
Anyways, the time it's taking to release = full metriod game to me
Post by: Bloodworth on March 04, 2005, 02:06:27 PM
As for Metroid, Nintendo has said there's supposed to be a full single player mode as far back as last E3, and I believe that's still the plan.
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 04, 2005, 02:09:44 PM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 04, 2005, 02:14:52 PM
Post by: RickPowers on March 04, 2005, 02:36:25 PM
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on March 04, 2005, 04:02:51 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 04, 2005, 04:12:39 PM
(edited thanks to sarcastic Hostile... ;_;.)
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 04, 2005, 05:54:08 PM
Warioware is a blast. The only problem I found with games being too similar was with the blowing games, since they're all basically blowing into the microphone. A little bit of variation, but not much.
And for this as well, I became totally immersed in the game and was not bothered by the fact that I saw my hand at all. It works fine for this sort of game.
Post by: Kaboth on March 04, 2005, 06:31:39 PM
Even if Hunters was only essentially a multiplayer game, does it really matter? After all that's all Unreal Tournament has ever been and few people doubt the success and fun of those games. I think focusing on cornering the market for competitive multiplayer games is an excellant move by Nintendo to dissuade people from jumping on the PSP train. I only wish they'd perhaps tried it with a new franchise. But if a regular Metroid Single player game is added, I consider this a bonus.
Post by: Djunknown on March 04, 2005, 07:28:06 PM
Quote
Create mouse-friendly games like strategy or tycoon games. Let the bottom screen work like a PC tablet or a laptop touchpad and have a mouse cursor on the top screen where all the action takes place.
Nintendo could use the DS to pitch game ideas to devs/publishers that normally don't flock to consoles/handhelds. Roller Coaster Tycoon DS? Not exactly original, but plausible!
Another free idea is to look at a classic PC game called Abuse(Hell, why not just tweak it, port it and call it a day?). Its a 2d shooter a la old Contra, but uses the mouse for precise shooting. one possible configuration is to use the stylus in either hand on the bottom screen as you see the cross hair on top (and the weapon will point to it as well). The d-pad or cross pad will be for digital controls, and use the L or R trigger to jump. So if you're using the D-pad, L would be to jump. Just a thought.
Hopefully they'll showcase more stuff at GDC and E3 to keep people interested in the DS.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 04, 2005, 11:46:32 PM
Post by: Caillan on March 05, 2005, 12:15:43 AM
There are many external factors you are exposed to when you are playing games. Outside sounds, the feeling of the controller in your hands, and the border around the TV screen are all too striking to conciously ignore. though I do not agree with them, some suggest that players actually go into a sort of trance after a few minutes of playing games, at which point all external factors are blotted out. If this actually is the case, surely you hand could be as well?
Post by: KnowsNothing on March 05, 2005, 05:52:30 AM
There needs to be a Worms game for the DS.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 05, 2005, 07:10:37 AM
I also love the contra idea with mouse-like precise shooting. That was the only thing I wished from my contra games, a way to shoot in more then just 8 directions. Oh ya and to also stand still while shooting diagonal. I think that instead of "innovating" Nintendo full capacity like they are now, they should focus a small portion of their resources of bring those games that normally would suck and a handheld or console. A Starcraft or Warcraft would be so freaking sweet, and I'm not even a big fan of those games....just the possibilty of saying "hey, I got Starcraft. Wanna play?----What race you gonna be?" while standing in the middle of NOwhere/anywhere would be great. Twitchy FPS would be fun too. I have always liked Doom (though I haven't played 3). Also a board game collection would be nice (playing chess during class is surprisingly fun). Games like Time Crisis could be done well too. What about Bulder's Gate, Black and White, and even Max Payne (sucked for consoles)?
These games that focus on the arcade, PC game player could potentially attract them to the DS since it has what they want. They don't want a console or a console handheld (GBA/PSP), the want the PC handheld (DS).
Post by: Robotor on March 05, 2005, 08:00:20 AM
Great editorial though, keep them coming. I'm really digging on the influx of them.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 05, 2005, 08:58:36 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on March 05, 2005, 10:07:39 AM
Nintendo may want to involve the hands more than the thumbs in the most important actions in games with the Revolution, which is great unless they only use it to deliver Jungle Beat, Wario Ware, and a remake of Sunshine to us. I have a fear that they will think too heavily of the gyro technology, eliminate face buttons, and have us shake the controller to jump. I sympathize with their want to simplify things, but they need to think about making an impact on the consumers now and not waiting five years for the competition to make it accessable to the consumers by adding face buttons and joysticks on top of the gyro controllers. Most importantly Nintendo doesn't need to wait five years before they figure out that the competition is going to woop their butts because Nintendo had this great controller for five years and didn't release any games for it that appealed to people who traditionaly play and buy games.
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on March 05, 2005, 10:47:01 AM
As for games like Nintendogs that type of game is popular with certain segments of the population, remember all those elctronic pet games?
Post by: RickPowers on March 05, 2005, 10:56:28 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on March 05, 2005, 11:29:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Avinash_Tyagi
Well for the Launch Nintendo rushed out the DS in order to beat the PSP, which is why the DS has had a dearth of games, however that's changing and many great games are on the way, games that will appeal to the hardcore gamers as well as games which will appeal to new segments. That's what Nintendo's trying to do move in a direction which will bring more people into the market by changing the way the games are played.
As for games like Nintendogs that type of game is popular with certain segments of the population, remember all those elctronic pet games?
i see the benefit of attracting that market, but i don't want to see experimental games like those chosen for production over a new adventure game.
Post by: Avinash_Tyagi on March 05, 2005, 11:40:29 AM
The basic thing is Nintendo isn't going to ignore its base, its just looking to expand its base.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 05, 2005, 12:18:47 PM
Nintendo needs to realize that it can do both at the same time, get new gamers while pleasing the old....I guess Nintendogs is a good example, but there are way better games that could do the same thing, but of course, better. RTS's and such can attract the market that console companies have always tried to get, PC gamers. What about RPG's like Super Mario RPG or Paper Mario, they definitely appeal to the masses (there easy to get a hang of and are easy to control, plus ALOT of fun). A pikmin game could be a perfect stragety game that could hit big with those "I need something to play other than DAMN SOLITAIRE." It could be easy enough to play since its would basically be "Hit button: Seperate groups, use touchscreen: highlight red group, use touch screen: point in direction to throw, hit button: throw, use d-pad: run away." Plus that again could pertain to the "I need to take care of something" group. A PDA accesory would be nice for the group that doesn't just want a game machine, or doesn't think it's worth to buy. What about the hardest group, the group that loves movies but don't care for games. They could make a game not unlike WarioWare, but instead play out scenes of familiar movies. For example, "Dodge Bullets" would showcase Neo as he dodged bullets, or "Order the hit" Could show you the scene that we always wanted to see in Godfather movie, where he basically orders the assassination of everyone in the movie. Extra goodies, such as never before scenes would attract alot of people (they love that stuff). Of course it would be a pain in the arse to do that (licencing fees and such) but that's why they're the hardest groups.
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 05, 2005, 05:20:29 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on March 05, 2005, 08:41:12 PM
While I suspect that Nintendo is, at least partially, ignoring their base with the DS I don't think the current lineup is a result of it. I see the current lineup as the result of a rushed launch. A remake/port and a Warioware game are a lot easier to get ready in time than an RPG. Nintendo is making a new Advance Wars game and that's not likely going to be something for non-gamers.
Though I do think, likely unintentionally, we will get somewhat ignored because of Nintendo's general attitude towards game design. Nintendo usually tries to make their games have universal appeal. While Sony tries to provide a lineup with a lot of variety so that everyone can find a game they like Nintendo's approach is to make it so that everybody can like every game. That's why EAD never makes mature games or any sort of niche game. Now Nintendo wants to expand to include non-gamers. And judging by the way they do things that means that instead of making real gamer's games and non-gamer's game they'll make universal titles for both. That's why instead of a new Yoshi's Island we're getting a point based Yoshi game because that allows for more universal appeal. The problem with this is that if the net is too wide and a game has to attract everybody we're going to be left with something that doesn't have much depth. We won't be ignored as much as EAD (I've noticed IS, NST, and Retro don't do this as much) will just alter our games to appeal to non-gamers and we'll just FEEL ignored because we won't get exactly what we want.
Basically Nintendo may be comprimising their games because of this expanded focus.
Post by: nemo_83 on March 06, 2005, 12:22:43 PM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 07, 2005, 03:10:32 AM
They need a good mixture, not a solution. From Non-gamers to Gamers, a broad range of games. I mention this in another thread, but if this type of mix existed, Non-gamers would "pratice" playing games that pertian to them. Then, one day they might it exciting to play a real gamers game with the depth and though process needed to suceed. The type of games that are fun, but only becuase of the struggle. Thus, these Non-gamers transform into plain gamers.
This should be Nintendo's strategy. And since it doesn't take long to make non-gamer type of games, it shouldn't hog up resources.
Post by: TheZooKeeper on March 08, 2005, 04:29:50 AM
Quote
But for the most part, I’m not convinced that the touch screen offers anything useful to the DS that couldn’t be done (and probably better) with an analog joystick.
To counter this, I feel the need to mention the game Zoo Keeper. The game would be painfully tedious to play without the touch screen. In fact, the touch screen allows for more complexity in the game since its speed and accuracy allow for quick combinations. As an interface for this game, the touch screen surpasses even mouse control (which you can try using the free flash version of the game) making it by far the control method of choice. As for the argument of the stylus being a "concious" or "invasive" control, I recommend spending 15 minutes with this game. You will see how this becomes a completely transparent control method, one that is not only reserved for buttons. (I'm still confused as to why the author seems to have forgotten how every new button and control added to a joystick requires a learning period - give even a simple 2-button controller to a non-gamer and they will definitely hunt and peck, knowing full well that they must push a button to activiate something on the screen. It only becomes transparent with time).
You might say that my Zoo Keeper example is the only example of a valid use of the touch screen so far. But that is partly my point. The experimentation period will eventually end and the valid uses of the touch screen will be known and implemented by developers, making the touch-screen another control method option which will add a new layer of interaction and accessibility to gaming.
I must also add that I have watched a number of non-gamers quickly learn to interact with several DS games (and continue to play them, sometimes for hours). I have also obeserved several very-casual gamers play more often than they did ever before. Witnessing this, it is impossible to deny the effectiveness of the touch screen when applied to the right game the right way.
So, my feeling is that we should give it some time before we judge it. And if it's not the interface for you, then move on.
TheZooKeeper
(Keeper of the Zoo)
Post by: KDR_11k on March 08, 2005, 04:46:40 AM
Post by: SgtShiversBen on March 08, 2005, 09:39:40 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on March 08, 2005, 09:55:18 AM
Ah, so you're playing for the privilege of backdoor entry?
Post by: TheZooKeeper on March 08, 2005, 10:00:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: SgtShiversBen
Then me and her duke it out on the minigames in which I get my ass trounced.
Good to know I'm not alone.
Post by: SgtShiversBen on March 08, 2005, 12:03:03 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on March 08, 2005, 12:59:24 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 08, 2005, 02:19:57 PM
Mm, Mallrats.
