Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2005, 12:47:08 PM
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We do havee working prototypes for current generation consoles that as Sony has told us, provide an unfair competitive advantage over standard controllers.
They refer to this new "upgrade" as Reflex control
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What is REFLEX Control?
White Fusion is driven to produce solutions
that will benefit both gamers and developers.
That is what REFLEX Control is all about.
No other company has ever done what
White Fusion is about to do.
REFLEX Control is completely unique, but it has a broad impact. It is not another specialized control device intended for a few games. It is an upgrade... an upgrade to the standard control for console games.
Its specualted to be a trackball, but I was curious as to what all of you think this new 'innovation in control' really is
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 15, 2005, 12:55:28 PM
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on February 15, 2005, 01:07:16 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on February 15, 2005, 01:14:10 PM
Well this can mean either one of two things:
1. Sony has stolen Nintendo's idea or
2. Sony and Nintendo have different ideas and we're going to get a controller design battle next gen.
I think 2 is more likely though it doesn't sit well for Nintendo's future. It doesn't matter who has the better idea. Sony is the market leader. Their controller will be accepted as the standard unless their design is completely unusable. Nintendo's idea HAS to be really good now.
Though in the end MS might be the odd man out. We may see a significantly different controller design for each console and if Sony and Nintendo both have designs that can do whatever the Xbox Next controller can do plus more then MS is going to miss out on some major exclusives. Though EA will probably just dumb down all of their games to work on the most limited controller and work from there.
However it remains to be seen if there will be a unique PS3 controller. Is White Fusion working on the PS3 controller or are they just some third party trying to introduce a new standard? If they don't have the support of a console leader any new "standard" just won't happen.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 15, 2005, 01:46:49 PM
but any way here is a filing @ the US Patent & Trademark office
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US Patent and Trademark Office wrote:
Publication # 20040259638
Handheld controller with mouse-type control
Filed: June 18, 2003
Pubished: December 23, 2004
Inventors:
Kramer, Dan H.; (Oakhurst, CA);
Buskirk, Peter Michael Von; (Northville, MI);
Blankenbaker, Phillip James; (Saline, MI)
Abstract:
A handheld controller for interacting with video game software and for use with video game or computer systems comprising a plurality of standard control elements, which produce data of a static nature, further comprising analog joysticks, a directional pad, pressure sensitive buttons, and digital control buttons, having an ergonomic arrangement to be actuated by the fingers and thumbs of the user and integrated into a housing having an ergonomic form designed to held by the hand or hands of the user and further integrating a "mouse-type" control element, which produces data of a dynamic nature.
enormous link
Post by: KnowsNothing on February 15, 2005, 04:13:14 PM
After reading the prior post: Don't break the tables
I'm not too good with words or stuff, but saying it produces data of a "dynamic" ature (as opposed to static) makes me think of a trackball or a gyroscope (that and the fact they call it 'reflex', which points towards the "hay you know when you're playing a racing game and you jerk your hands to the left and right when making turn" thing). And grips. Yeah, I don't know what's happening, but with the history of Sony taking Nintendo's ideas I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. Alot of things Sony takes credit for helped create the huge gap between them now, so I would expect for them to try once more. It worked last time. On the other hand, if Nintendo does go with gyroscopes, it's not going to be it's only unique feature. So people would be all "the ps3 controller has reflex blah blah" and we could be all "Rev's does too plus it has CANDY"
all hail knowsnothing, queen of jumping to conclusions and not reading articles
Post by: Gamefreak on February 15, 2005, 07:33:05 PM
analog R and L buttons! Oh and rubber grips on the handles.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 16, 2005, 06:20:18 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on February 16, 2005, 08:35:39 AM
And if the copyrights on the site are true (2003), then it could be that Nintendo is stealing White Fusion's ideas!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 16, 2005, 02:05:37 PM
and neither of them knew it...................
Post by: Uglydot on February 17, 2005, 01:54:34 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on February 17, 2005, 06:28:27 AM
Post by: KnowsNothing on February 17, 2005, 08:52:27 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on February 20, 2005, 11:32:48 AM
"Dan Kramer
Director of Technical Development
Dan has provided a variety of services in development engineering to the electronics industry for over 30 years. A large portion of that has been spent with video and computer games. Dan has worked for a number of accessory manufacturers over the past 5 years including: Nuby, Savia, and Nyko (a top-rated manufacturer) in a diverse array of development support duties. However, his experience in product development began 20 years earlier when he worked for Atari, Inc. During his time at Atari, Dan worked to develop and promote the first track-ball controller for a console."
This was a good find.
Post by: Gamefreak on February 20, 2005, 04:14:57 PM
And please, all the consoles add two simple USB ports and built standard support for mice and keyboards... It's really not asking much, and we can play FPS's properly.
Post by: nemo_83 on February 20, 2005, 04:23:41 PM
Post by: Artimus on February 21, 2005, 12:27:57 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on February 21, 2005, 04:00:15 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 21, 2005, 04:03:23 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 21, 2005, 05:28:33 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 22, 2005, 05:44:58 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 01, 2005, 10:08:46 AM
It looks like a PS2 controller, but instead of a second analog stick on the right it has a big red trackball.
But you also gotta wonder how the lawsuit with Immersion is gonna affect this controller, if at all.
Quotewill this be PS3 compatable? I assume they are working with Sony since their design is just a slight variation off the look of Sony's controller.
This first generation REFLEX Control™ enabled controller is intended for release in Fall of 2005.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 01, 2005, 10:38:43 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on April 01, 2005, 11:06:19 AM
So it's perfect for Sony. *swish*
Post by: Artimus on April 01, 2005, 11:46:37 AM
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on April 01, 2005, 12:05:53 PM
And BlackNMild2k1, please edit your post so as to not break the table. I hate scrolling left and right to read a post. Change it into a real link or something, and make the text short, like with maybe two words or something.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 01, 2005, 12:15:11 PM
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Originally posted by: Myxtika1 Azn
And BlackNMild2k1, please edit your post so as to not break the table. I hate scrolling left and right to read a post. Change it into a real link or something, and make the text short, like with maybe two words or something.
Not to sound rude but, .....the screen looks fine to me and I don't even have the window maximized.
the link is hardly a long link [http://www.whitefusion.com/] <-- does it get shorter?????
I think you should up your screen resolution to something higher than 320x240
anyway.....
here is your shorter link .
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on April 01, 2005, 12:31:20 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 01, 2005, 12:40:49 PM
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Originally posted by: Myxtika1 Azn
uh-huh... yeah.... Maybe you'd like to look at your second post in this thread. See that post about the patent with super long ass link in there? kthxbye
didn't know what post your talking about, but that is from over a month & 1/2 ago (assumed you were talking about todays post) and it is also a direct quote from the patent site, so I wasn't going to alter anything. And besides that it still doesn't mess up my forum setup as it just breaks it to a new line, so I don't know what to tell ya.
edit: spelling errors
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on April 01, 2005, 12:55:10 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on April 01, 2005, 03:52:35 PM
Post by: nemo_83 on April 01, 2005, 10:57:44 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 01, 2005, 11:16:44 PM
This is obviously a very FPS-oriented controller... so it makes more sense to have it on the right because that's the aiming part.
This controller is only an evolution for FPS games. The difference between an analog stick and a trackball is that a trackball sacrifices the ability to hold the stick in any one direction for added precision.
You can't play Katamari Damacy on this piece of crap.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 02, 2005, 01:18:31 AM
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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
This is obviously a very FPS-oriented controller... so it makes more sense to have it on the right because that's the aiming part.
If you grew up that way... not I, NOT I! Whether it's been Perfect Dark, 3D Zelda archery, or the recent RE4, lefty-thumb aiming is the way for me. To restrict aiming controls to the right side is closed-minded and inconsiderate, especically given the rich history and lead time that lefty-thumb analog control has had. Ubi-soft, Eidos, I hate you.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on April 02, 2005, 06:57:03 AM
Anyways, Nintendo's hopefully gyration-capable controller can provide more control, and precision with more intuitive-ness for gamers and non-gamers alike. You could pick up and play, while with Sony's model, you would pick up, wonder what the hell a ball is doing there, then play horribly. Nintendo could actually market they're controller by pointing out the flaws of whitefusion's controller. Sony should of just kept it the way it was. Even if they are the market leader, if it's not as comfortable, intuitive, and more fun to play then Nintendo's controller; Nintendo will hold dominance over the input interface of next-gen consoles.
Just thought i'd give my 2 cents....
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 02, 2005, 08:56:18 AM
I can't believe I forgot.
OK, let me rephrase... This is obviously a very FPS-dual-analog-control-scheme oriented controller.
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on April 02, 2005, 01:02:32 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on April 03, 2005, 09:44:35 AM
The site doesn't load for me, though. Claims I have the wrong Flash plugin. I hate jackasses like that who believe they know what my computer is capable of. Especially when they get it wrong.
Myxtika1: I don't see how that has gotten any worse than what dual-analog already is. A trackball isn't a primary method of control unless you're playing an RTS or something. When you want to move your character you still use the left analog, the trackball is a replacement for the c-stick. It does camera control and sometimes aiming.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on April 03, 2005, 12:05:53 PM
Anyways, is it fast? Does it respond well, is it any better than normal mouses, like the light-mouse?
Just want to see what the PS3 is getting themselves into....
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 03, 2005, 12:21:55 PM
It's just easier to glide a mouse over a surface than to continually flick a trackball with your thumb. Not to mention, due to the curved nature of the trackball, it takes at least a while to learn to flick it in the exact direction you want it to... a fact that arcade golf games use to their advantage.
Compared to an analog stick, a trackball does offer added precision over the extent of movement, for small movements... as in, you can more easily learn to specify exactly how much further to the left you want to look. But if you want to turn around 360 degrees for whatever reason, you're better off with a stick, because you can just hold that all the way to the left instead of flicking the trackball twice, overshooting and compensating.
Which also means games like Damacy just aren't playable with a trackball. You're going to have to somehow hold the left stick up and flick the trackball up at a constant, equal and even rate.
At least, this is all based on my experience with trackballs, which admittedly isn't all that extensive.
Post by: Grant10k on April 03, 2005, 01:06:21 PM
Also with a trackball you help solve the problem of sensitivity, many games are way too sensitive, making it hard to aim with precision, others aren’t sensitive enough, and even if you push the analogue stick all the way to one side, you still corner like a freight train. A trackball is nice because there is no limit to how far you can turn, if you aren’t turning fast enough, spin the ball faster.
Post by: pudu on April 03, 2005, 11:13:05 PM
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Originally posted by: Professional 666Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
This is obviously a very FPS-oriented controller... so it makes more sense to have it on the right because that's the aiming part.
If you grew up that way... not I, NOT I! Whether it's been Perfect Dark, 3D Zelda archery, or the recent RE4, lefty-thumb aiming is the way for me. To restrict aiming controls to the right side is closed-minded and inconsiderate, especically given the rich history and lead time that lefty-thumb analog control has had. Ubi-soft, Eidos, I hate you.
I agree completely. I tried to play the latest Turok game and various other shooters or games with first person view shooting like Splinter Cell and I can't aim worth anything. First of all, I think the C stick on the Cube is terrible compared to the right analogue on PS2 or Xbox. It has a far smaller surface area to use, it has little grip/friction so I constantly slide off of it, it has corners you get stuck in on the edges of it's range of movement, and it's stiff as heck so any subtle movements are terribly hard (I do think, however, it's ok for things like camera movement where analogue isn't a must). Secondly, as Professional 666 said, I have spent years training my left thumb for precise aiming and such and trying to train my retarded right thumb is terrible (especially on an inferior stick). If RE4 forced you to use the right thumb I would be furious to put it lightly.
That being said I believe the BEST contol device for shooters is the mouse. I've spent an enourmous amount of time playing UT99 (as shown in the demo videos on whitefusion's website) and what they are doing there is nothing out of the ordinary for me...if not, fairly subpar. The mouse gives you greater range of motion if you have the desk for it and once the track ball runs out of room you have to pick up you finger...an enormous no no.
I guess the point I'm trying to make in all this is that it was hard enough getting good at using my left thumb in shooters on consoles and for some games like RE4 and Zelda I think it fits perfectly fine. Although for fast FPS games I think the PC/mouse combo is by far the best way to play these games. Lets all hope Nintendo actually creates a form of interaction so intuitive and precise that they make me eat my own words. I doubt it though...simply because I doubt gyration (if that's what they use) can be very steady and precise given the fact that no person can remain perfectly still and the lack of friction from a surface or spring will cause some confusion...plus the obvious: people aren't used to haveing to be in shape to play games. I can just imagine sweating on a hot summer day with my arms aching trying to beat the last boss in Metroid...getting increasingly angry my tiring limbs are making it next to impossible to accurately hit the mark.
P.S. For those that made it this far: I appologise for the "epic" post here...I'm semi-delerious at the moment :S
P.P.S.P.S Sorry about all the unavoidable spelling errors, I know it's bad when I'm not even willing to read back through my own post to double check...
Post by: couchmonkey on April 04, 2005, 05:15:48 AM
Edit: P.S. I agree that left-thumb aiming should always be an option. I've gotten acustomed to right-thumb aiming, but there's usually no reason to restrict it.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 11, 2005, 08:34:39 PM
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Now, the million dollar answer... Yes, games will need to be programmed to take advantage of the REFLEX Control. We're told that developers are very pleased with what they've seen, so hopefully support will be a widespread occurrence. Interestingly, you'll notice that the demo videos are using Unreal Tournament for PlayStation 2; it's definitely not any of the PC versions. Note that that title is well over four years old and has support for White Fusion's controller. What that means, well, all will be revealed in due time...
So what do all of you think it means?
Post by: nemo_83 on April 11, 2005, 10:40:50 PM
