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NWR Interactive => TalkBack => Topic started by: WindyMan on February 12, 2005, 05:48:49 PM

Title: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: WindyMan on February 12, 2005, 05:48:49 PM
That means someone probably had to circumvent the system's anti-piracy measures.

Someone decided that the current selection of titles for the DS wasn't enough, so they had to go and make their own game for the system.  The first homebrewed DS game is a version of Tetris.  It really doesn't mention anything other than that, but one of the screenshots does show it running on both screens.


For this to be possible, the encryption scheme or other anti-piracy measures Nintendo has in place to protect its DS games has probably been compromised.  Nintendo probably didn't envision a computer cable wired into the Game Card slot when it came to playing games on the thing, after all.


It's still neat to see other people tinkering with the system and see what they can do with it.  Who knows, in the future, maybe some crack homebrewer can come up with something that uses the DS's features in a way not even Nintendo could dream up.

Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Knoxxville on February 12, 2005, 08:14:55 PM
Who can blame 'em?  The launch games (with the exception of the exceptionable rehash that is Super Mario 64) SUCK!  I'm basically using it as a backlit GBA.....
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: gally on February 12, 2005, 08:48:55 PM
I hate to sound like I am condoning illegal activies here, but it sounds to me as if this means emulation can't be too far off. Of course it may be a long time before it actually becomes accurate, due to the more complicated nature of the DS when compared to the largely 2D-centered, SNES-like Gameboy Advance.

You know, I think game companies need to pay close attention to what individual groups do with their hardware and their properties. If emulation hadn't become so popular, I doubt so many game companies would have started releasing compilations of emulated games. Along those notes, I wonder if it's possible that Graal, an online blatant Zelda: Link to the Past ripoff (originally titled Zelda Online) prompted Nintendo to create the Four Swords series (look at Four Swords Adventures on the GC - it reminds me heavily of Graal, making me wonder if that's just because Graal IS Zelda:LttP, or if it's actually a cycle of influence of sorts).

So if someone creates homebrewn DS games that use ideas Nintendo wouldn't normally think of, then it's possible Nintendo or third parties may feel the need to use these ideas so they aren't wasted (well, mainly so they can claim them in their own games).

Also note that an individual group discovered how to make the Gameboy Color display more than 32 colors at once, in high quality photographs - a feature Nintendo of America later used in the intro for Bionic Commando: Elite Forces. I wonder if Nintendo wouldn't have done that had the technique not been discovered and word of it not spread.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Caillan on February 12, 2005, 09:05:08 PM
I hear there are already beta emulators for the DS which the mouse instead of the stylus. Not from a source I would put much trust in ("Why buy this piece of crap? You can get an emulator for free on your PC."), but that's the word anyway. Apparently pre-alpha PSP emulators based on existing PSX ones are present in Japan as well. Handheld systems are the sole commercial victims of emulation.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 12, 2005, 09:17:14 PM
Tetris is boring.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2005, 11:09:24 PM
gally: Inserting code into an existing device is much easier than emulating said device. Just because you know some of the instructions the hardware takes doesn't mean you know what exactly the hardware does.

I appreciate this. Homebrew/indie games are usually vastly superior to commercial ones since they aren't risking anything. My most played PC games are indie titles.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: joshnickerson on February 13, 2005, 03:48:42 AM
Man, that was quick.
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Nephilim on February 13, 2005, 04:10:57 AM
"Homebrew/indie games are usually vastly superior to commercial ones since they aren't risking anything"
Sadly this isnt true for Nintendo hardware
99% of Homebrewed GBA games were basic and badly made, I remember the best one according to zolphar's domain was a bland spaceshooter with no ending.
And dont get me started on the lame mario hard versions and final fantasys with swear words ack for snes
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: JonLeung on February 13, 2005, 05:26:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I appreciate this. Homebrew/indie games are usually vastly superior to commercial ones since they aren't risking anything. My most played PC games are indie titles.


You must know where to find them, 'cause almost every homebrew game I've seen has been crap.  There are exceptions, yes, but if homebrew doesn't require much more than some bored gamers in front of a computer, then I'm not surprised at the lack of quality homebrew titles.  Like I said, I must be looking in the wrong places...

Now that I look at the pic, how is he playing Tetris on BOTH screens?  Maybe it's just for test purposes 'cause few people are able to multi-task THAT well.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: nickmitch on February 13, 2005, 07:19:45 AM
Tetris is fun.
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: gally on February 13, 2005, 07:43:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
gally: Inserting code into an existing device is much easier than emulating said device. Just because you know some of the instructions the hardware takes doesn't mean you know what exactly the hardware does.


True, I understand that. But it means that someone has figured out how to make the hardware do certain things. Which means they had to program it to do those things. Therefore, it's already started. I don't know when we'll see a functional, working emulator that works as well as GBA emulators do today, but one is certainly inevitable. That someone has programmed a homebrewn game for DS, I believe, only speeds up the process a bit.

Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: KDR_11k on February 13, 2005, 08:22:20 AM
Not necessarily, they might have had access to SDKs. I doubt anyone could hack a hardware apart AND write a program using it that fast.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: ssj4_android on February 13, 2005, 09:55:40 AM
I don't think they have the SDK. They got some sort of pass through thing going, but they didn't know exactly how to use DS specific hardware yet, like the mic, wireless connection, and touch screen. At least, last time I checked. And hardly anyone is going to jump through all these hoops to run unofficial code. And most homebrew stuff isn't anywhere near as good as commercial stuff, at least on consoles. There's xbox media center which is vastly superior to xbox media extender, but it's an app, not a game.
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Jensen on February 13, 2005, 01:57:39 PM
Quote
And dont get me started on the lame mario hard versions


There are a couple of good Mario3 hacks.... Mario Adventure and Luigi's Coin Quest.  The engine and graphics are tweaked and improved.
LCQ is more of a puzzle game.  

Meanwhile, Nintendo just dumps old games onto a new system.   (the super mario advance games)

The only reason that most games have sucked is because the system is hard to program for, especially without great documentation.    

I've played some quite fun Flash games on the internet that would be great for the DS.  There are even some calculator games that are quite fun.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Kirby_PopStar on February 13, 2005, 06:15:52 PM
I'm shocked about this, but at the same time, I sort of expected it. People want to experiment with doing their own thing.  There are some pretty good Mario hacks too, especially those done by Dark Dhiaz (the ones mentioned above) and a few others. These are games that with a little graphical updating, people would BUY for today's consoles as a new Mario game, and they would sell great. Why can't Nintendo just make a new freaking platformer Super Mario game already?!?

AND, this one is important-- I wouldn't doubt the idea that they got their hands on the Software Development Kit (SDK), because the Japanese web-site for the company (which I think is a division of Nintendo) called Intelliigent systems had a hidden index page where I was able to download the SDK for Nintendo GameCube and Nintendo GameBoy Advance (both of which are currently on my computer, I have proof if you really need it.) They slipped up for a while and had the "Nitro" Software Development Kit on there for a while, before they realized the public could access this and took it down.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: ruby_onix on February 13, 2005, 07:02:01 PM
I'm normally somewhat "in favor of" piracy. I can't say that I always like it, but the real "rights holders" always tend to fall short sooner or later, at which point it's nice to still be able to get something from someone who truly appreciates whatever it is that we're talking about.

But this is much too soon. Yes, I seem to remember this happening even sooner on the GBA, but not a lot sooner. And what became of it? Lots of piracy. The dirty kind. Pushed by sellers who want to get-rich-quick, and buyers not willing to pay to support the things they enjoy.

Sure, the GBA was willing to take it. But can the DS? Or the PSP? Even if we had a sudden clear winner in this new "handheld war", there's nothing to say that either console would be able to withstand piracy's negative effects the way that the GBA did.

These "cutting edge" pirates are just looking for trophies, and it's just a matter of time before someone takes it too far (if that hasn't happened already), which ruins it for everybody else.

In the anime fansub world, there was this "code" about things that were "unlicenced", meaning that no American company had picked up (and was able to defend) the rights to something. Then one day, in the rush to "be first", some fansub groups actually managed to get a straight-to-DVD anime release that hadn't even been released in Japan yet, and offered it up on bittorrent.

The Japanese rights holders got infuriated, and started cracking down on American fansubbers. Other Japanese companies are expressing interest in the idea of cracking down on American fansubbers, and American fansubbers are trying to wrap their minds around the fact that unlicenced =/= legal anymore.

One group, taking things too far, upsetting the balance, and ruining it for everyone.
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Cleon_I on February 13, 2005, 11:37:38 PM
The current setup for running homebrew code on the DS is no threat to piracy, as it required considerable knowledge of digital electronics and some skill in soldering.  In fact, I only know of six people who actually have working pass-through units (although there are plans to start mass-producing one of the more attractively-sized ones).  If I understand the process correctly, they work by telling the DS to run from the GBA port, where a flash card stores the executable code.  Portions of the Metroid Prime demo have been run in this way, but no full commercial games (that I know of).

Other efforts to get homebrew code running on the DS have focused on sending programs from a computer using a wireless adapter and the multiboot functionality (one-cart multiplayer) on the DS.  Unfortunately, this appears to be too difficult since PC wireless cards generally don't support all the functions that the DSes use to communicate with each other.  However, there is no encryption on the wireless transmissions so there's still hope.

As for emulators, I know there is at least one out there called HyperDS, as can be seen on this site  It's currently not available to the public, but it looks like some good progress has been made.
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: JB on February 14, 2005, 12:51:11 AM
I am afraid this is a hoax. The screenshot on that site has changed over the last few days. The first screenshot had Tetris running on the top screen. Now that PGC has reported it, the bottom screen in the photo suddenly is displaying Tetris as well, while the top screen hasn't changed. That is very odd. I'm not saying that it isn't possible to run homebrew games on the DS yet, which is possible, I am only saying that this Tetris game isn't running on the DS.

EDIT: I was wrong, see post below.
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: DesktopMan on February 14, 2005, 11:55:53 PM
No, it is not a hoax. I updated the picture because I got 2d core A to work. It supports two players on one ds, so one player plays on the top and the second plays on the bottom. The fact that I actually have the binary widely avaible should speak for itself. If not, I can gladly provide anyone with the source-code if they actually have any use for it. (as in, knows c++)

It is not using the official sdk, I'm compiling with devkitARM (check link at the top of http://www.auby.no) with a modified linkerscript, and a custom crt0 which dovoto wrote. There will be made avaible an easy to use environment for DS dev in the near future.

And as someone pointed out, this does not open for piracy, since retail DS games are made to run from DS cart, with a filesystem and such. The homebrew demos so far run as a single binary, much the same way as gba was. (It's still running in DS mode, so we can still use all of it's features.) Since entrypoints and other technical nonsense is very different, you can't just slap a DS commercial game on a gba cart and use a passthrough to run it.

The emulator that runs my binary is called HyperDS, and will not play commercial games for a long time. It will however be of invaluable use to homebrewers, since it makes testing and debugging much faster/easier. I don't have a passthrough myself, so I had to do most of the testing in it until it was done, then I got someone else to test on hardware for me.
Title: RE:First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: Uglydot on February 15, 2005, 01:04:39 PM
Actually, homebrew/indie games are usually clones or close copies, like this one.  Still cool though.  I loved the stuff that came out of DC and other systems.  
Title: RE: First Homebrew DS Game Created
Post by: KDR_11k on February 16, 2005, 07:46:47 AM
Even if they're clones they're usually better executed and more imaginative than the commercial ones. Besides, indies can develop much simpler games without people complaining about them not being worth 50 bucks. Warning Forever is fun, Melty Blood has the best controls I've ever seen in a fighting game and hell, TUMIKI, the "sticky shmup" is just something you'd NEVER see in a store.