Post by: Jonnyboy117 on December 02, 2004, 06:52:11 AM
From time to time, we here at PGC like to show our readers what the mainstream media is saying about Nintendo. Sometimes the comments are good, such as frequently occurs with articles by Steven Kent, one of the most prominent mainstream gaming journalists. In this case, one highly regarded publication doesn't think much of Nintendo's current console. The Washington Post's "Holiday Tech Buying Guide", by Rob Pegoraro, surveys various electronics categories and suggests the best buys in each field. For the gaming article, linked above, Mr. Pegoraro had this to say:
Most of the time, I've been able to limit my game-platform advice to one question: What games do you -- or the recipient of your gift -- play most often? Find out what console the games play on, and buy that.
This year, things are different. One console, the Nintendo GameCube, is clearly obsolete, with a diminishing supply of new titles. The other two -- PlayStation 2 and Xbox -- are far more competitive.
This is certainly one of the most damning comments about GameCube we've seen published, especially by such an influential newspaper.
Thanks to Willco at GAF for the tip!
Post by: Deguello on December 02, 2004, 07:37:43 AM
Post by: Plugabugz on December 02, 2004, 07:57:50 AM
Post by: Bartman3010 on December 02, 2004, 08:02:26 AM
But I must say, other than Metroid, there really isnt a must-have title for this christmas. Last year, we had all sorts of great titles. Not to mention Nintendo has quit with a lot of their special events for some reason.
Post by: JonLeung on December 02, 2004, 08:06:12 AM
I think the number of titles on the PS2 and Xbox don't mean as much as people think they do. At least for myself, a self-proclaimed "hardcore gamer", who will play most any genre and not care too much about if it's rated E or M, though there's a bias there. I just think that if people didn't count the generic games, the games they would never touch, and the games that they didn't have time for, that would leave them with the same amount of game play time as GameCube owners. My friends, PS2 and Xbox owners, keep bragging about the number of games they could have, but they play a lot less than I do, and I'm more than busy enough with my 'Cube. And if the 'Cube can keep me and a lot of people busy, it can't be obsolete. Certainly not at this point, while we're still in this generation of consoles, even if it is mostly downhill from here.
Plus, "obsolete" implies a technical view, like you could say the NES and Super NES were obsolete even if you still found them fun. But the GameCube is in a few ways technically superior to the PS2, so if the PS2 isn't obsolete, how could the GameCube be?
Post by: uwvark on December 02, 2004, 08:08:18 AM
Post by: jakeOSX on December 02, 2004, 08:25:27 AM
this is in reference to the following article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25613-2004Dec1.html
which was about game consuls for the holidays. The author makes a comment that the Nintendo GameCube is obsolete. I would like to counter that argument.
First, the GameCube has better graphics than the PS2. With integration with periphials such as the GameBoy Advance, the new Bongo controlers and Wavebird, the only first-party wireless controller, the GameCube offers a wider variety of game play than any of the other systems.
The PS2 and XBox are basically clones of each other. There is very little reason to have both. The GameCube offers several exclusive titles such as Zelda, Metroid and the Mario games, that are not only great games now, but come from a gaming legacy that both young and older gamers can appreciate.
As for the diminishing titles comment, do not mistake quality for quantity. Metroid Prime 2 Echoes, Tales of Symphonia, Resident Evil 4, new Zelda and Mario games on the horizion, all exclusive to the GameCube, the amount of quality games for the Cube has and is only going up.
From a purely finacial standpoint, for $99 a buyer can get a GameCube, two controllers and Mario Kart, a deal that none of the other consuls can beat.
By reporting that the GameCube is obsolete, I believe the Post has done a diservice to its readers. This is a strong platform that in many ways outshines its competitors.
-jacob
Bias report: I am a GameCube owner, as i was a N64 owner, a Super Nintendo owner and a
Post by: JonLeung on December 02, 2004, 08:37:24 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on December 02, 2004, 08:43:14 AM
It's pretty extreme to use "obsolete" to describe the Cube since it does have games still being released for it and some high profile ones at that. Regardless of what the Washington Post says the new Zelda will be a Game of the Year candidate and will be acknowledged as such by gaming publications. And of course a 2004 GOTYC was released less than a month ago for the Cube. I will admit however that Resident Evil 4 going to the PS2 does contribute to the Cube being viewed as obsolete. You no longer need a Cube to play it so it no longer counts as a reason to justify the Cube's existence.
Still even though it's an extreme view it's accurate in the minds of the mainstream. Nintendo really has failed with the Cube. You can bring up figures that show Nintendo is still profitable (they better be considering the GBA's sales) but still the Cube is a complete failure. The Cube has removed virtually all public interest in Nintendo home consoles and that's much worse for Nintendo's future then any annual loss would.
Is the Cube truly obsolete? No. But Nintendo should act like it is when they release the Revolution. Nintendo has to assume that absolutely nobody cares about the Revolution and thus they have to convince everyone it's worthwhile, even us loyal fans. That means they can't rely on the Nintendo name or any association with their franchises. I'm not saying they shouldn't use the Nintendo name or not make franchise games but they can't rely on that (which they are doing right now since every Cube game released this year off the top of my head was a franchise game). Acting like they're a brand new company starting from scratch is overcompensating a fair bit but I think it's a direction they have to take. Assume no one cares because few do.
Post by: couchmonkey on December 02, 2004, 09:43:38 AM
I think that maybe NCL doesn't see the global picture. With the exception of the new Zelda, most of Nintendo's games continue to be very cute and family-oriented and Mario spin-offs outnumber new franchises by leagues. But I think this reflects what Japanese gamers are looking for, to some degree. My impression is that ultra-violent games don't sell as well in Japan, and cartoony, lighthearted games aren't a bad thing there. And franchises, especially Mario, sell Cubes in Japan. Mario Party 4 brought Cube sales within 1000 units of PS2 during one week, which is very rare in Japan.
Of course it's up to NOA to try and change the opinions of the uninformed masses here, but there's only so much NOA can do considering that NCL seems to have the final say in new game projects.
Edit: I talk too much, made post a bit shorter.
Post by: Ian Sane on December 02, 2004, 10:14:32 AM
I absolutely agree.
Hey purple's a regal colour right? Let's make it our official colour in all regions even though outside of Japan it represents homosexuality.
I don't think it's up to NOA to change the opinions of the masses. I think it's up to NCL to take into account the global market when making decisions that affect all territories. They need to stop handcuffing their global affiliates when it comes to local issues. NCL apparently is the reason NOA doesn't release demo discs in a normal fashion. Why? Why does NCL care about how demo discs are distributed in North America? NCL is the reason the Cube is offline. Whenever they talk about online they talk about how the concept is perceived in Japan. Um, yeah that doesn't apply to North America or Europe. Hot spots for example would NEVER work as a suitable solution in the US or Canada because the land is too big.
NOA not only can't change public opinion here, they shouldn't have to. A company is supposed to provide for the consumers needs and wants not decide what the consumers want. Hell forcing unwelcome ideas is part of Nintendo's problem. NCL has to make the change. They have to give NOA more control over what goes on in North America and have to encourage more non-Japanese game development.
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 02, 2004, 10:58:58 AM
This guy is a real stupidhead.
You should really allow us to use more obscene words on these forums.
Post by: vherub on December 02, 2004, 11:11:42 AM
At the end of the day, no one's opinion, not wapo, the 6 o'clock news or an internet site can determine how much you get out of a system unless you let them. But Nintendo has allowed the Cube to slip off the radar for a lot of people and while this might not be some harbinger of doom, it certainly is not a positive by any means.
Post by: 31 Flavas on December 02, 2004, 11:14:38 AM
QuoteHow asinine can you get? It's just color. Purchase the black gamecube if a purple one makes you that insecure about you masculinity. It's rediculus that it should be that big of an issue to anyone.
Originally posted by: Ian SaneHey purple's a regal colour right? Let's make it our official colour in all regions even though outside of Japan it represents homosexuality.
Post by: The Omen on December 02, 2004, 11:22:38 AM
Quote
How asinine can you get? It's just color. Purchase the black gamecube if a purple one makes you that insecure about you masculinity. It's rediculus that it should be that big of an issue to anyone.
You're quite dubious yourself. What Ian is saying is the target market/demographic for consoles is teen/young adults. And that type of 'homosexual' thought process is rampant with the 'cool' crowd of the demographic. Sure there's a black GC, but it sure wasn't advertised at launch, was it? The bottom line is, you have to know who you're trying to attract. Launching with the black or platnium GC seemed an easy choice. Instead, Nintendo goes with purple, not exactly the color you want your console, that already is being called a toy, to launch with. Try telling an immature 13 year old that purple will look great in his room....and yeah, he'll end up with an Xbox. Nobody is saying that thinking is right, but it's true nonetheless.
Post by: mjbd on December 02, 2004, 11:35:31 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on December 02, 2004, 11:49:51 AM
Post by: JonLeung on December 02, 2004, 12:55:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: nolimit19
it doesnt do any damage assuming it wasnt on the front page. people dont look to the washington post for gaming info. most people that read it probably dont own video games.
Actually, that's quite true. That one single article probably won't do much "damage" at all, but it shows the mentality that's already there.
The sad truth is that most people will not even consider games that they might enjoy because of shallow, insecure concerns (too many colours, too cute, must be for the kids), or only buy a system because it appears to be the more popular, regardless of what games they do end up playing on it. And while it's not the job of these idiots to do extensive research on upcoming games, and more the job of the marketing divisions of the various game companies to promote a certain image, oftentimes I still want to smack some shallow gamers upside the head anyway... >_<
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 02, 2004, 01:31:25 PM
Other things,
Tales of Symphonia PS2 - JAPAN stuff. Little to no impact here in the continent Columbus bumped into, cuz ToS PS2 OKAY-USA! doesn't exist.
RE4 PS2 - A buh-lunder in the making. We'll see how "old" it quickly gets once next-gen hype systems are shoved down our throats at E3. "Here, checkout RE4 PS2," "Sorry, I'm busy swallowing non-playable hype."
The purple GameCube problem was quite a problem (or not a problem at all, but) at launch when all the cool kids snatched up all the black unitss from the initial shipment leaving many people to only see the purple Polly Pocket houses on the shelves. Someone, please, bring back 'NOW YOU'RE PLAYING WITH POWER' "red," mainly as a highlight and not the actual color of the shell casing.
Post by: Mario on December 02, 2004, 02:51:55 PM
Post by: rocc94 on December 02, 2004, 03:34:27 PM
Post by: S. Thompson on December 02, 2004, 04:17:20 PM
Stupid marketing propaganda.
- Fuzmeister
Post by: Kairon on December 02, 2004, 05:27:38 PM
And thus, it also points to a disconnect between Nintendo's corporate and developmental culture and modern gaming culture. Let's be serious: Nintendo was and still is built around Shigeru Miyamoto's legacy. This is the guy who's latest game is about gardening (Pikmin 2)... how culturally relevant is that to gamer's in the US, or even Japan? Urban areas have no more green space, and how many boys do you know who are actual avid gardeners?
Let's face it, most mainstream gamers nowadays would call Mr. Miyamoto himself gay.
Not to say that it's their fault. No, not at all. Gaming isn't even going down the tubes. It's just that when you look at this from a larger perspective, you realize that the time for Nintendo to lead the industry as only Nintendo can has passed. Nintendo saved videogames in '84, tyranically revived it with the NES, presided over a golden AGE with the 16-bit era, and finally, with the PSX, had allowed videogaming to reach a point where it could go mainstream, where it could progress into another company's expertise.
Nintendo isn't failing or anything remotely like it (unless the only measure of success in your eyes is marketshare). But they are a relic of the past, a "Mastercraftsman" type of figure in the videogame industry who is now being replaced by Sony's and Microsoft's "factories" that democratize the gaming medium. This is not to say that Nintendo is worthless, far from it. They should be treasured and preserved for who they are, and the values they still hold in their development of games that very few companies share.
But Nintendo had their "turn" as the prime example of videogaming. It's time to let the next kid have their "go."
Besides, who knows what DMA (I refuse to call them Rockstar North!), Maxis, or Bungie can innovate in the field of videogames that Nintendo would never have come up with?
Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ledgehammerous on December 02, 2004, 07:01:38 PM
Post by: ootler on December 02, 2004, 09:56:38 PM
Plus I think that commentators on the market subconsciously like the idea of a racial contest between the US and Japan. It's in the blood. It's the same with cars.
Nintendo remind most of us of the days before we became jaded hacks eeking out a pathetic living and trying to think of ourselves as worldly and cool - and it embarasseses us to a greater or lesser degree. The guy who wrote the obsolete remark is hungry for the future. Why would this be? Perhaps he hopes for a surgical procedure to make his tiny one slightly bigger? Or perhaps he is running from the past, haunted by the old school photo in which his acne has blossomed into a plume of nasal warts? Whatever the case, the idea that what you wear, what you play and what music you listen to defines you is social fascism. All these little babies walking around thinking they are men because they once saw a bruce lee film while eating burning hot chilli over a few lite beers. There's nothing tough about going into a shop and buying a ps2. Consumer paranoia - "how do I look if I buy this?". The flip side of that is paparazzi magazines endlessly suprprised to see a cool star walking out of a mall with a couple bags of shopping looking normal.
All of this is psychotic and accepted without question. Nobody actually grows up anymore because they're too busy trying to seem grown up. Do you think a grown up would be insecure enough to worry about seemingly childish content in a game? All modern games are mostly matrix calculations. How tough/obsolete/silly is that?
Post by: idgaf on December 02, 2004, 11:25:05 PM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on December 03, 2004, 02:50:03 AM
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on December 03, 2004, 04:27:17 AM
Post by: Lokno on December 03, 2004, 05:04:34 AM
Post by: kennyb27 on December 03, 2004, 07:00:31 AM
QuotePikmin is about...what? Gardening? Hardly. The setting of Pikmin is a garden, indeed. But how does that translate to it being about gardening? No offense, but that is just a stupid statement made out of ignorance.
Let's be serious: Nintendo was and still is built around Shigeru Miyamoto's legacy. This is the guy who's latest game is about gardening (Pikmin 2)... how culturally relevant is that to gamer's in the US, or even Japan? Urban areas have no more green space, and how many boys do you know who are actual avid gardeners?
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 03, 2004, 07:17:37 AM
A lot more fun, for starters
Post by: PaLaDiN on December 03, 2004, 07:18:05 AM
More asinine media comments parading uninformed opinions as facts. What's new?
Post by: Lokno on December 03, 2004, 07:29:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I agree pretty much with IanSane. This article points to the public perception of Nintendo's home consoles, whether or not it is factually true.
And thus, it also points to a disconnect between Nintendo's corporate and developmental culture and modern gaming culture. Let's be serious: Nintendo was and still is built around Shigeru Miyamoto's legacy. This is the guy who's latest game is about gardening (Pikmin 2)... how culturally relevant is that to gamer's in the US, or even Japan? Urban areas have no more green space, and how many boys do you know who are actual avid gardeners?
Let's face it, most mainstream gamers nowadays would call Mr. Miyamoto himself gay.
Not to say that it's their fault. No, not at all. Gaming isn't even going down the tubes. It's just that when you look at this from a larger perspective, you realize that the time for Nintendo to lead the industry as only Nintendo can has passed. Nintendo saved videogames in '84, tyranically revived it with the NES, presided over a golden AGE with the 16-bit era, and finally, with the PSX, had allowed videogaming to reach a point where it could go mainstream, where it could progress into another company's expertise.
Nintendo isn't failing or anything remotely like it (unless the only measure of success in your eyes is marketshare). But they are a relic of the past, a "Mastercraftsman" type of figure in the videogame industry who is now being replaced by Sony's and Microsoft's "factories" that democratize the gaming medium. This is not to say that Nintendo is worthless, far from it. They should be treasured and preserved for who they are, and the values they still hold in their development of games that very few companies share.
But Nintendo had their "turn" as the prime example of videogaming. It's time to let the next kid have their "go."
Besides, who knows what DMA (I refuse to call them Rockstar North!), Maxis, or Bungie can innovate in the field of videogames that Nintendo would never have come up with?
Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
You paint a terrible picture of the gaming world today. I assure you it's not as bad as you make it out to be. I think that the industry can handle more than one concept of what makes a good game.
Post by: pyrokamileon on December 03, 2004, 09:56:07 AM
"You mean people will write software for this box whose hardware hasn't changed since 2001? That's so quaint!"
sounds like he doesn't even care about the game, or the sound, or the control, sounds like all he cares about is the graphics, since thats really all you need new hardware for, hardware that's changed since 2001. oh and by the way console hardware is made to be explored, and developed, new software and hardware is made to utilize "old" hardware in new ways, do new things and improve graphics. if that weren't the case then the playstation would have gone no where, I've seen some pretty good graphics on the PSX but i've also seen some of the worst graphics on it as well. anyways i'm done ranting for now, and I haven't even touched on the obsoleteness of the 'cube, oh well another day. oh look, i wrote about as much as he did. can i get back to mp2 now? I heard it's system is obsolete.
Post by: dafunkk12 on December 03, 2004, 12:01:55 PM
QuoteThat was beautiful. ::applause::
Originally posted by: Kairon
Nintendo isn't failing or anything remotely like it (unless the only measure of success in your eyes is marketshare). But they are a relic of the past, a "Mastercraftsman" type of figure in the videogame industry who is now being replaced by Sony's and Microsoft's "factories" that democratize the gaming medium. This is not to say that Nintendo is worthless, far from it. They should be treasured and preserved for who they are, and the values they still hold in their development of games that very few companies share.
Post by: KDR_11k on December 04, 2004, 02:25:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: nitsu niflheim
The Washington Post is a crap newspaper, it's freaking liberal to the point that it's biased against about anything that doesn't lean to the left. The only good thing about The Washington Post is the Sunday comics. In my opinion the Washington Times is a much better paper, as I read it almost everyday.
Erm, left is socialism. Socialism and liberalism are incompatible. Liberalism demands things like an absolutely free market controlled by the corporations while socialism is about the equality of men and no privatization. Liberalism is center, socialism is left and nationalism is right.
Post by: AGENTDICKLAURENT on December 04, 2004, 03:01:22 AM
That is, if that person is indeed an American. If not, ouch. Hehe.
Post by: Lokno on December 04, 2004, 03:17:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: dafunkk12QuoteThat was beautiful. ::applause::
Originally posted by: Kairon
Nintendo isn't failing or anything remotely like it (unless the only measure of success in your eyes is marketshare). But they are a relic of the past, a "Mastercraftsman" type of figure in the videogame industry who is now being replaced by Sony's and Microsoft's "factories" that democratize the gaming medium. This is not to say that Nintendo is worthless, far from it. They should be treasured and preserved for who they are, and the values they still hold in their development of games that very few companies share.
Yes, it would be a great simile, if making great games was just like making great cars; When all that matters is that next years model looks slicker, is more powerful and has more features. If you think that is true then this discussion if over - we part ways on that point. To me making truely great games is an art, just as with songs, books and movies. Therefore no matter how large and big the business of making games is, the mastercraftsmen will never die, and democracy only replaces true direction.
Post by: Bloodworth on December 04, 2004, 08:11:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11kQuote
Originally posted by: nitsu niflheim
The Washington Post is a crap newspaper, it's freaking liberal to the point that it's biased against about anything that doesn't lean to the left. The only good thing about The Washington Post is the Sunday comics. In my opinion the Washington Times is a much better paper, as I read it almost everyday.
Erm, left is socialism. Socialism and liberalism are incompatible. Liberalism demands things like an absolutely free market controlled by the corporations while socialism is about the equality of men and no privatization. Liberalism is center, socialism is left and nationalism is right.
Another reason not to discuss politics here. All these left and right definitions vary completely from country to country. Even what is considered liberal and conservative depends on the history and culture.
Post by: uwvark on December 04, 2004, 10:03:37 AM
I emailed the guy asking if he even plays games since it didn't really seem like it to me. Or maybe it was just the negative perception that the gaming press has gave the CUBE since uh, always that scared him away from playing one. All he felt necessary to tell me was that
"To answer your question, unless you *don't* think online gaming is relevant, I would say that the GameCube is looking pretty far behind the times. "
To which I wondered how he thought that made it "obsolete". So I replied again with the following:
"If I want to play online I always have my PC and Xbox. I'm one of the billion people who play Halo 2 online everyday. Game Boy Advance isn't online, does that make it obsolete? Hasn't it been the #1 selling console all year? Have you tried Donkey Konga or seen the new Mario Party? Online is fun sure but you still can't beat having everyone you play in one room together. I play games to have fun and most of the games I play aren't online and yet they remain fun. I won't defend Nintendo's reluctance to go online. It agree that it is a major reason why they seem to be slipping in the console race but in no sense of the word do I consider the Gamecube "obsolete". I also believe one of the major reasons Gamecube isn't doing well is because of people who write articles like you did. The gaming press has seemed to want Gamecube to fail since day 1. I don't know why that is and it bugs me. No one seems to write articles about what the PS2 or Xbox lack only what's good about them yet it's the exact opposite way with the Gamecube. I guess people think it's cool to bash Nintendo now. Whatever."
Post by: InfinitysEnd on December 04, 2004, 07:20:21 PM
