Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: Shecky on November 20, 2004, 08:12:59 AM
Title: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Shecky on November 20, 2004, 08:12:59 AM
So I decided to buckle down and write this. Hopefully it will be useful, maybe it won't, we'll see.
First some background on controls:
---> Mouse meet Touchpad, Touchpad meet Mouse
As there are both displacement pointing devices that serve the same purpose. Back in the days of mouse pads you could make this statement rather easily:
"Place your (mouse/finger) in the center of the (pad/touchpad) and move your (mouse/finger) in a NW direction. A movement of X units of your (mouse/finger) will result in your pointer/crosshair moving NW by Y units, where the difference between X and Y is the sensitivity." (Optical mice have brought an age where your "pad" can be quite irregular in shape, but the same principle still applies.)
FPS benefited from the use of a mouse in that if you see something onscreen that is X units NW, you brain knows how to translate that into Y units you need to move the pointing device to get there. Once you have displaced those X units, you also stay focused on that area. Also if you ran out of room to track you could always "lift the (mouse/finger), adjust to a new location, re-engage, and continue tracking."
---> Buttons are Buttons
Wether it be a face button on a controller, a thumb controlled D-pad, or an inverted T-formation of keys on a keyboard. They're all just buttons laid out in different fashions to make it easier to handle input.
---> The Analog Stick: Spring Based Pointing Done Right
So unlike a mouse, the analog stick does not follow the same principle of displacement. Don't get me wrong, you still displace the stick, but it doesn't correlate to a displacement on screen. Instead, it correlates to how quickly you would like the displacement to occur and in what direction, and springs are used to center the stick to a neutral position.
---> Touch Screen as a Analog Stick
So there are several immediate ways of attempting to make a touch pad an analog stick equivalent.
1) Touching the pad anywhere is equivalent to "grabbing" a stick in the neutral position. So in essence, you just determined the neutral position of the stick. Any movement away from that point is equivalent to pushing the stick in that direction. Returning to the neutral position either consists of moving your finger back to the point you first touched, or removing your finger (resulting in letting the stick 'snap' back to neutral). 2) Same as one, but letting go doesn't snap the stick to neutral (instead some other input, like a button is needed to return to neutral). 3) The center of the screen is the neutral position of the stick. One then can move left for example by either touching the center and moving their finger left, or just by touching the left side of the screen.
All these approaches rely heavily on having an effective "dead zone" (or area that is considered neutral). It can't be too big, because then it seems unresponsive. Too small and it becomes difficult to control. In addition, the size of that zone is also proportional to what is being used as a stylus.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Shecky on November 20, 2004, 08:14:44 AM
Also, for anyone who has played Mario 64 DS, does it employ any of the above techniques?
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 20, 2004, 08:24:00 AM
Mario 64 DS employs a touchscreen analog control that I've heard to work quite well...
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: KDR_11k on November 20, 2004, 10:22:53 AM
Yeah but which one? Where's the center of the virtual stick?
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 20, 2004, 10:30:31 AM
I recall reading that it's in the center of the touchscreen, and you move it a bit outwards in the direction you want to move...
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on November 20, 2004, 11:42:20 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Bill Aurion Mario 64 DS employs a touchscreen analog control that I've heard to work quite well...
Yeah...either the NP editors are just advertising that it does have "analog control" or maybe they're telling the truth, but they claim that the control scheme of which Bill speaks is their favorite for SM64DS.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Michael8983 on November 20, 2004, 12:37:07 PM
I'm sure it just takes some getting used to. Think back to when you first attempted Mario 64 on the N64. At first I didn't think it felt comfortable at all. My thumb was always slipping off and if I played for more than an hour it would start hurting like hell. I could barely maneuver Mario past the first levels and I didn't think there was any way in hell I would EVER survive in levels like the Tick Tock Clock and Rainbow Ride. But I got used to the controls as did everyone else and now I can beat those levels like they're nothing with the analog stick and after some practice I'm sure I'll be able to do the same with the D-Pad and touch-screen just as comfortably. I think the problem is people are expecting to be able to immediately pick up and play Super Mario 64 just as expertly on the DS as they did the last time they played it on the N64. That's just unreasonable with such different controls.
I'm sure people must have thought the D-Pad was difficult to use and an inferior method of control when Nintendo first introduced it decades ago. Before that, people were used to large joysticks like the Atari had.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Mario on November 20, 2004, 01:26:26 PM
Would this be possible? It's a mockup someone made on another forum that could possibly fix the lack of analog problem. It's basically a GBA cart that sticks out down the bottom. I don't know if it would work without the games being programmed to use it though.. but it's an interesting idea.
I'm getting a bit worried after hearing that the touch screen control with SM64 DS is awkward in most reviews/impressions...
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Jensen on November 20, 2004, 06:41:30 PM
The lack of an analog joystick is the one thing that may make me decide to skip on purchasing the DS tomorrow.
A joystick is best for third person 3d games with camera relative movement. The most popular first-party 3d nintendo series all have this same this same camera/control scheme. (Mario, Zelda, and Pikmin)
And Lemmings on my Game Gear is my favorite portable game EVAR!!!!11won1!! When can I get it for the DS with the nice touch screen???
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Hooboo on November 20, 2004, 08:28:34 PM
Ok Mario is that joystick thing of yours jsut something you made on photoshop or something someone made? My guess its just a drawing, also wouldnt it be very odd to play with seeing as how its so far away from the other buttons?
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on November 21, 2004, 03:32:33 AM
Never thought of that, Mario...but I do expect some peripheral to be released by a third-party (be it in the form of a GBA cart or not) to fix our analog stick woes.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 21, 2004, 04:03:41 AM
"The lack of an analog joystick is the one thing that may make me decide to skip on purchasing the DS tomorrow.
A joystick is best for third person 3d games with camera relative movement."
Have you even seen how the touchscreen manipulates the camera in SM64DS? -_-
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on November 21, 2004, 06:02:53 AM
You seem pretty knowledgable on SM64DS, Bill...do you have it yet? Does it really work without analog control? I won't be getting mine till later today.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Michael8983 on November 21, 2004, 04:43:25 PM
So far I'm doing ok in the game with just the d-pad. It doesn't feel as good as an analog stick. But it gets the job done. I'm not doing so well with the touch-screen method but I'm sure it just takes practice. Truthfully, I've barely played the main game at all. I've been focusing on the surprisingly fun mini-games and that awesome drawing thing at the start.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Darkheart on November 21, 2004, 04:56:09 PM
ok peeps ive had the ds since the midnight launch and i think im ready to post my impressions of control on the ds:
1. Mario 64 ds:
call me crazy but i hate the analog touch screen, i dont know how you people do it, i dont mind the kind of akward d pad settings. My only grudge is that you have to hold down a button to run, if otherwise you walk. They really should of thought this out, in my opinion they should of made you hold down a button to walk across a narrow passageway, and let running be a default.
2. Metroid Demo:
Lol now to be completely opposite, i loved using the touchscreen with the thumb nub on this game, to me it feels more appropriate and easier to control.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Perfect Cell on November 21, 2004, 05:21:14 PM
I said it since E3... It needs an Analog Stick
I wonder what Miyamoto thinks... He probably would say us silly americans dont know crap about video games...
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Switchblade Cross on November 21, 2004, 05:23:55 PM
Yeah, I LOVE the touch controll of Metroid. I only wish it were more sensitive as to avoid having to recenter avery so ofter.
As far as mario goes, I like the D-Pad controll. I dont think its nearly as difficult as some people make it out to be. I guess you just have to master it, just as other have to master the touch analouge, which I dont really like by the way...
So far, I've played more of the mini-games then the actual adventure, lol! I like Mario's games. Where you draw in some way or another. I think this is a good way to see how the Kirby and Yoshi games may be. I can't wait!
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Darkheart on November 21, 2004, 05:51:46 PM
lol im glad to see im not the only one fooli ng around with the mini games rather than the main game, the only motivation i have to play the actual story mode is in the hopes of earning more mini games @_@
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Rancid Planet on November 21, 2004, 07:44:45 PM
There are three different setups for control schemes in SM 64 DD. I like the default but I'm sure others would like one of the two other settings better. I hope everyone who has a problem with DS control has at least tried all of the settings first. I find that keeping the touch screen ususage to a minimum helps.
Like in the default control scheme for the Metroid demo. It was just terrible! I mean I flat out hated it. Too much handmovement form left to right, it was entirely too unfamiliar to my hands. I feel like I did when I learned the N64 controller for the first time.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: blackfootsteps on November 21, 2004, 08:08:51 PM
From what I've read I gather there are three different control setups, although only two seem to have been directly mentioned. -D pad control w/ run button -Touch screen control.
I'm assuming the 3rd setup is a left handed version of the latter? I sure hope so, because as a lefty using a stylus in my wrong hand would be plain awkward.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Bloodworth on November 21, 2004, 10:03:43 PM
I feel like Mike Sklens and I must be the only ones that actually like the default control in Metroid Prime Hunters. It took me a little bit to get used to it, but I don't think it's all that different from a mouse and keyboard. My only gripe really is that demo seems more like a standard FPS than a full-fledged Metroid game.
I haven't played Mario 64, but I will probably just check it out when I can borrow it from someone else. I never went for any of the Mario GBA ports either.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on November 22, 2004, 01:35:29 AM
It's amazing--I spent the first hour and a half with Mario 64 DS fighting its analog controls, and desperately trying to get some sort of thumb action using my left thumb. I was cursing the system and calling it a failure.
Once I gave up on using my thumb the stylus-in-right-hand approach really grew on me...I'd say it's about an hour learning curve. Touch Screen < analog stick, but not by as much as I expected or originally thought.
One thing I haven't heard anyone complain about: The GBA button mapping. B and A are B and A on the DS. That sounds just fine, but with smaller buttons and a SNES setup, it is just taunting me! I'm playing Yoshi's Island here, and Y does not lick! I really wish Nintendo included customizable GBA button mappings--they did it with Mario All-Stars, so why not here?
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: kennyb27 on November 22, 2004, 03:04:11 AM
I've been using the touch screen analog for SM64 since I got it. I think its ingenious. Maybe not as good as an analog stick, but still, I think it's so much better than the D-pad.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: NintendoPiccolo on November 24, 2004, 03:36:53 AM
Main Idea= It's just takes time to get use to...just keep playing..the more you will appreciate the controls..hopefully
Nintendo DS controls + Giving it more TIME = Saving more on Car Insurance with Geico...and a life time relationship *wink wink*
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 24, 2004, 04:00:38 AM
You know...I haven't even played the Metroid Demo since I bought the system.
Though, not about Metroid, but about Controls on the DS.
Have you seen new shots of the Rayman game. They seem to be answering the problems many had with Mario 64 DS. Instead of having a map they have an Icon that allows you to have a starting point for your thumb when using analog, and it also allows you to know when you are at the extreme point.
It may take awhile to get used to the limit, but once you do I bet you won't even have to look at the second screen to tell.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: norebonomis on November 24, 2004, 04:32:30 AM
i find that the touch control on mario. well sucks @$$. but i don't have any problem using the d-pad. allthough i would have LOVED an analog stick/nub
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: kennyb27 on November 24, 2004, 04:49:23 PM
Quote Have you seen new shots of the Rayman game. They seem to be answering the problems many had with Mario 64 DS. Instead of having a map they have an Icon that allows you to have a starting point for your thumb when using analog, and it also allows you to know when you are at the extreme point.
Would you really look at the touch screen though while you are playing to know if you hit that "extreme"? I know I don't look at the touch screen when I'm playing SM64. I actually think the control in Mario may be better since you don't have to start the thumbstrap (assuming you are using that) at the same spot every time like you may have to in Rayman.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on November 25, 2004, 06:45:26 AM
The President is right.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: PoopyLoopy on November 26, 2004, 08:06:22 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Bill Aurion Mario 64 DS employs a touchscreen analog control that I've heard to work quite well...
It works HORRENDOUSLY...am I the only one who has had their DS hoped tarnished by the controls on Super Mario 64 DS?
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: MaleficentOgre on November 26, 2004, 08:24:24 AM
I think you are. I love the controls on the game.
Title: RE: Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: ActorJ on November 26, 2004, 07:47:31 PM
the control in mario DS does take a little geting used to, i dont think anyone could argue against that. however once you do get used to it, which is only a matter of practice (or about 7 or 8 stars) it becomes really natural. in some cases the touch screen actually works better than the analog stick, sliding levels for instance.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 26, 2004, 09:18:03 PM
Well I have no big gripes with the thumbstrap control except that it has a high learning curve but its more fluid to me than the D-pad controls. They are very awkward and very clunky it isnt natural. And the multiplayer and mini games are a great boost to the last ability.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: kennyb27 on November 28, 2004, 05:12:19 PM
Quote It works HORRENDOUSLY...am I the only one who has had their DS hoped tarnished by the controls on Super Mario 64 DS?
Why, yes. Yes you are.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Jensen on November 28, 2004, 06:56:18 PM
Quote Originally posted by: PoopyLoopy
Quote Originally posted by: Bill Aurion Mario 64 DS employs a touchscreen analog control that I've heard to work quite well...
It works HORRENDOUSLY...am I the only one who has had their DS hoped tarnished by the controls on Super Mario 64 DS?
Nope, I hated it too. I only played until for the first 2 stars. The D-Pad is very uncomfortable to use (in addition to being imprecise). I don't like that you have to hold a button to run. How am I supposed to hit the secondary action button while holding the run button?
The touch screen control is even worse.
But the mini games were the best experience I've had with a game in quite a long time. I liked the one that requires you to draw lines to guide Mario(s) to flowers. All the games use the dual screens and touch screen well.
Mario 64 is tied for my favorite game ever, but without the smooth, easy to use controls, it just isn't the same game.
Title: RE:Control on the Nintendo DS
Post by: Ages on November 28, 2004, 07:19:59 PM
"Nope, I hated it too. I only played until for the first 2 stars. The D-Pad is very uncomfortable to use (in addition to being imprecise). I don't like that you have to hold a button to run. How am I supposed to hit the secondary action button while holding the run button?"
You do realize that you had to hold a button to run in Mario 1-3 and World right?
Edit: The problem is not holding down a button to run, it worked in all past Mario games. What makes Mario 64 DS different, is that Nintendo switched to a 3 button format for the 3d games. Which makes holding down the run button more difficult when you have to stretch across the controller to use the "dive" move
