Post by: Mario on November 18, 2004, 02:27:44 AM
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The loss of Silicon Knights, creators of Eternal Darkness and Metal Gear Solid: TTS, as an exclusive developer was a minor but nevertheless notable blow for Nintendo earlier in the year. But now it seems as if the treacherous dog is about to become a valuable contributor to the Nintendo legacy once more. Silicon Knights is still not returning fully to the fold, in that it won't be becoming an exclusive developer again, but it is apparently working on a new and as yet un-named game for the Gamecube. This is in addition to Too Human, which was a tech demo shown at the launch of the Gamecube and is rumoured to be turning into a multi-format release.
Taken from the latest Cube UK magazine... it's about time we got some kind of news about SK. According to this, SK having a new GC game in the works is a fact, but it looks like Too Human being a multi-format release is speculation. Or is it? Or... is it?
Post by: Hybrid Hunter on November 18, 2004, 02:41:50 AM
Well, this is good news, although the Too human being multi-format is a blow..to the balls! Like a low blow!
I'm assuming this Gamecube game will be exclusive?
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 18, 2004, 03:13:51 AM
Post by: DrZoidberg on November 18, 2004, 04:06:10 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on November 18, 2004, 04:12:15 AM
and Ive also kinda lost faith in SK
they dissapointed with MGS IMO,
that was one of the games I regret buying
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 18, 2004, 06:23:41 AM
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Originally posted by: Hemmorrhoid
and Ive also kinda lost faith in SK
they dissapointed with MGS IMO
They were remaking a mediocre game in the first place...Hate on MGS EVERYDAY
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on November 18, 2004, 07:26:26 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on November 18, 2004, 12:40:14 PM
I'm happy to hear that Silicon Knights might not be totally off of the Nintendo train. As for Too Human, they used the word rumour (rumor) rumour rumooor rum...umm, oh yeah, my point was, yeah, I'd call that speculation.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 18, 2004, 12:43:03 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 18, 2004, 02:12:30 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on November 18, 2004, 02:40:22 PM
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I think its good for SK to release one of their long indevelopment, mature rated games multi-platform, to help increase the SK fan base. That way when SK does release another Nintendo exclusive, maybe someone other that the N hardcore fanbase will take notice.
Bah. Everyone will just say "I'll wait for the PlayStation version" and skip buying the Nintendo-exclusive game, or not even let themselves get interested in it.
If even one SK title goes multiplatform, that attitude (in regard to all future SK games, at the very least) will become ironclad.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 19, 2004, 12:43:41 AM
"You're even asking? Hell, yeah!"
"Well, good then. We'll have you remake the first game using the engine from the second one then."
"CENSORED"
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on November 19, 2004, 12:49:46 AM
But MGS just dissapointed, I didnt even like it as much as MGS2 (maybe because MGS2 was so wow when it came out)
Anyway, SK might release games for GCN, but I cant see them making any more exclusives, why should they? Its always a risk to make a GCN exclusive from a business standpoint, and I cant see Nintendo giving them lots of cash for exclusivity, otherwise they wouldnt have sold SK.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on November 19, 2004, 08:02:10 AM
Post by: vudu on November 19, 2004, 08:31:22 AM
QuoteWhen exactly did that happen? I must have missed it.
besides they called SK a treacherous dog.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on November 19, 2004, 09:50:06 AM
Post by: vudu on November 19, 2004, 11:33:35 AM
Post by: Djunknown on November 19, 2004, 04:33:16 PM
I wonder how a British magazine could scoop up a rumor on a Canadian Company. Anyways, its hard to trust 3rd party exclusives now. One can only hope it'll stop [saying its exclusive when it isn't] when the Revolution comes out. As long that haven't abandoned Nintendo completely, is fine by me.
Post by: Lost101 on November 20, 2004, 06:15:12 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on November 20, 2004, 12:17:04 PM
times change, quality changes, maybe SK just lost their talent
btw, whats the deal with Zoonami?
I know theyre developing this multi plattform song game, althought their party owned by Nintendo???
Post by: Caillan on November 20, 2004, 02:24:31 PM
Apparently the 50s spy theme was a 'disguise', or something.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on November 20, 2004, 02:37:30 PM
Post by: Deguello on November 20, 2004, 10:20:18 PM
How would they know? Just curious...
Post by: Caillan on November 20, 2004, 11:04:39 PM
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Seems kinda odd that they have full synopses of the development strategies of Zelda: OoT and Super Mario World, though.
Yeah, they're good as well, though they limit the abstraction to such a degree that they're almost irrelevant if you want to design other games.
The water temple's map is very impressive.
There's nothing strange about respecting and analysing EAD's design methods, however. Most western writers about games tend to write alomst soley about western techniques. Western game design has a tendency to focus on certain idealities, while (good) Japanese games will incorperate them naturally, focusing instead on things like level archetecture and balance. By the looks of Hollis' speech, the Bond team did it pretty Japanese. They also have a thing about Treasure there, so I'm guessing they're just hungry for a decent write up about Japanese design principles. Aren't we all?
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on November 21, 2004, 12:56:28 AM
But seriously, Zoonami has been marinating for a while. I'd love to know what they are really up to--at this point it may be next gen development.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on November 21, 2004, 01:27:46 AM
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Originally posted by: Lord_die_seis
No Zoonami isnt owned by Nintendo their a Indy developer. Martin Hollis from Zoonami did help with the development with gamecube though.
your sure? I thought Nintendo invested in them, or owned a part of them or both.???
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 21, 2004, 04:00:45 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on November 21, 2004, 09:20:09 AM
Post by: Rancid Planet on November 21, 2004, 07:49:14 PM
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Originally posted by: Hemmorrhoid
and why were they always somehow linked or affiliated to Nintendo?
I don't know. Why do little boys always think Cher is a man?
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on November 24, 2004, 10:36:41 AM
Well, I think any game they would have in the works for Nintendo would be expected on Revolution anyway.
Post by: Gamefreak on November 24, 2004, 05:09:05 PM
After all, most of the Goldeneye/Perfect Dark team left Rare and joined either Zoonami or Free Radical (Timesplitters, Second Sight). And Zoonami's big chief, Martin Hollis (directer of Perfect Dark) left Rare after Perfect Dark and joined Nintendo during the development of GCN, then after development of GCN was done founded Zoonami.
Post by: Deguello on November 24, 2004, 07:05:27 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on November 25, 2004, 06:00:11 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on November 25, 2004, 10:17:49 AM
ok, Starfox sucked too, but that was rushed and manipulated, but the other games in the work like Kameo etc, seemed so magical, like the good old banjo kazooie etc fun
in general, i feel that both SK and Rare are replacable, and Nintendo will find ways to fill the gap
Post by: Truthliesn1seyes on November 25, 2004, 12:08:56 PM
Post by: xts3 on December 01, 2004, 01:27:23 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on December 01, 2004, 02:31:34 PM
Post by: Berto2K on December 01, 2004, 02:51:35 PM
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Originally posted by: xts3
I think the goal for microsoft was to stop rare developing exclusive hits for the GC, not so much that they wanted them to make good games for the xbox, it was more trying to stop development of system selling games. And RARE was a key developer, they were practically the "Blizzard" of the N64.
Wow, that is so 100% wrong its not even funny. Rare wasn't living up to even their known expectations for development. Nintendo saw that their money might be better uesed elsewhere and put Rare out for purchase.
Post by: Ian Sane on December 01, 2004, 07:30:32 PM
This seems to be the common excuse to justify Rare's departure but I find it's full of holes. Star Fox Adventures sucked but the games Rare made right before that were Conker's Bad Fur Day, Banjo-Tooie, and Perfect Dark, all of which are AMAZING games. So it seems silly to say that Rare lost it because of one game. And keep in mind this a game that switched platforms partially through development and had to be redesigned to use the Star Fox licence (which Nintendo forced upon Rare). That doesn't mean that had Dinosaur Planet been released on the N64 that it would have been a classic but at the very least it's a legit reason for the game's long development time and some of the sh!tty parts of the game were the fault of the shoehorned Star Fox licence. So after a nearly flawless record on the N64 Rare flubs ONE game, which had numerous problems with its development beyond Rare's control, and suddenly they suck and it's a good idea for Nintendo to sell them?
Now you can say that Rare hasn't performed up to expectations on the Xbox but they do now have a different publisher which is going to change things (plus Grabbed by the Ghoulies switched platforms as well). You can't for sure say that if Rare stuck around with Nintendo that things would be the same. I don't miss Rare in the sense that they have released anything for the Xbox yet that I wish was on the Cube. But I miss the potential and I miss the variety they provided to Nintendo's lineup (which has been dreadly unoriginal since Rare left). It also bothers me that Nintendo has made ZERO effort to full the hole in their lineup caused by Rare's departure.
Post by: Hostile Creation on December 01, 2004, 07:45:14 PM
Grabbed by Ghoulies looked less than marvelous, dare I say it. I hate Rare. I just hate em.
Post by: ruby_onix on December 01, 2004, 09:39:59 PM
Rare's stock (as a whole) was supposedly worth something under 500 million dollars. The Stampers owned 51%, and Nintendo owned 49%. The Stampers wanted to bail out while they were ahead, and sell their 51% to Nintendo, which would've been by far the biggest investment in Rare that Nintendo had ever made. Nintendo didn't think it was worth that much. (Does anyone know how much Nintendo paid for Retro? Or Brownie Brown? Or Rare?) So Nintendo asked the Stampers to look elsewhere. Microsoft was willing to buy, but they wanted the whole thing, or nothing. Rather than hanging the Stampers out to dry, Nintendo sold their 49% back to the Stampers (on credit, because the Stampers didn't have hundreds of millions of dollars), and the Stampers sold the company to Microsoft.
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It also bothers me that Nintendo has made ZERO effort to full the hole in their lineup caused by Rare's departure.
Exactly one month after it was announced that Nintendo sold Rare back to the Stampers, it was announced that the European Union had decided to fine Nintendo $150 million on accusations of NES/SNES-era price fixing.
Post by: Caillan on December 01, 2004, 09:51:14 PM
During 64 generation, I looked foward to Rare's games more than EAD's. Blast Corps (which is in desperate need of a sequel), Diddy Kong Racing, Goldeneye, Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, Jet Force Jemini, Perfect Dark and Conquer's Bad Fur Day were all great games, and that's eight in a generation. Combine those with the good-but-not-great Killer Instinct Gold and DK 64 and that's ten games, 80% of which were of a very high quality. How many did EAD make?
Spending profits on studios that were either nonexistant (Retro) or made crap games (N-Space) is not a good strategy.
EDIT: Opps, my bad about Perfect Dark 2.
Post by: ruby_onix on December 01, 2004, 10:54:31 PM
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Rare was still a good developer. If nothing else, Perfect Dark 2 would have rounded the Cube's lineup nicely. It probably wouldn't have been delayed until the next generation if it hadn't had a change of platform, come under new management, had half its team leave it, and the remainder border on strike because of crap pay/management either.
The Free Radicals jumped ship as soon as Perfect Dark was completed. Martin Hollis quit/was fired after that, but before the move to Microsoft (which pounded the final nail in Rare's Goldeneye/PD team).
The "Joanime" Dark concept art which was revealed when they moved to Microsoft is apparently all that exists (or ever existed) of Perfect Dark Zero. Perhaps if Rare was still with Nintendo, they wouldn't be pretending that they still had the ability to make another Perfect Dark, but I doubt it.
As for Rare's worth, I think it's like Star Trek TNG/DS9/Voyager. They hire a bunch of unknown actors. They do good work. They become famous. Ratings go up. Their pay goes up. And up. And eventually the studio can't afford to make the show anymore. The show gets canned. Everyone gets fired. We're lucky if we get to see Seven of Nine in Boston Public. The studio hires new unknown actors and starts up a new series. We all complain that these people are noobs and we want more TNG. But they do good work. They become famous. Ratings go up. Their pay goes up. We start to feel good about watching Star Trek again. Just at the wrong time. It never ends. Unless the movie studio starts buying orphans.
Edit: Oh by the way, there was apparently a rumor coming out of an XBox forum a few weeks ago saying that Rare's super-fantastic Goldeneye/PD team has been working nonstop on Halo 3 since the success of Halo 1 (while Bungie was working on Halo 2), and that it'll be out next year and will blow everyone's minds. I think it's absurd, but it gave me the idea that Microsoft might have Bungie make the next Perfect Dark, which would mean that another Perfect Dark could be possible, and only because Rare was sold to Microsoft.
Post by: Bill Aurion on December 02, 2004, 02:19:24 AM
Wasn't Retro purchased for a measly 1 million dollars?
"Spending profits on studios that were either nonexistant (Retro) or made crap games (N-Space) is not a good strategy."
Oh it sure is! Smaller studios are more open to creative ideas, and Ninty has given them a new lease on life...Wouldn't it be a shame if Retro had been ignored and died a horrible death by making movie licenses or being bought by EA?
Post by: Mario on December 02, 2004, 02:26:28 AM
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I think it's absurd, but it gave me the idea that Microsoft might have Bungie make the next Perfect Dark
OH GOD NO. NOOO! I want the next Perfect Dark to be PERFECT DARK. I want it to play like the original, I want a SEQUEL not some completly different game that uses the name Perfect Dark.
Post by: Ian Sane on December 02, 2004, 06:50:37 AM
N-Space however needs to prove themselves. I have no idea why Nintendo is interested in them since they have never made anything even remotely good. At least Rare had Battletoads and SK had Blood Omen to show that they were capable devs beforehand.
"Rare's stock (as a whole) was supposedly worth something under 500 million dollars. The Stampers owned 51%, and Nintendo owned 49%. The Stampers wanted to bail out while they were ahead, and sell their 51% to Nintendo, which would've been by far the biggest investment in Rare that Nintendo had ever made. Nintendo didn't think it was worth that much. (Does anyone know how much Nintendo paid for Retro? Or Brownie Brown? Or Rare?) So Nintendo asked the Stampers to look elsewhere. Microsoft was willing to buy, but they wanted the whole thing, or nothing. Rather than hanging the Stampers out to dry, Nintendo sold their 49% back to the Stampers (on credit, because the Stampers didn't have hundreds of millions of dollars), and the Stampers sold the company to Microsoft."
So Nintendo basically sold their greatest non-Japanese asset to a competitor because they didn't want to hang the Stampers out to dry and didn't think Rare was a worth investment? LAME. Another example of Nintendo only thinking about the present. They promised us Rare games when we bought Cubes. They lied. Lying to your fanbase and essentially conning them is going to cost you more in the long run then investing in a developer with one of the best track records ever. All selling Rare did was tie another anchor around a console with little mobility to begin with. How can we trust that buying a Revolution is a solid investment when like 80% of Nintendo's promises regarding the Cube were broken over silly business crap focused entirely on the present?
Post by: odifiend on December 02, 2004, 07:44:41 AM
And what has Rare done since they left? Grabbed by the Ghoulies, another damn port of Donkey Kong Country, a port of Conker's BFD and I think maybe Saburwulf.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on December 02, 2004, 08:31:03 AM
What really frustrates me is how little Nintendo did after that, the had a load of cash at their disposal, and the knew they lost some well renowned exclusives.
They bought out Retro which was an excellent move, but after that not alot happened.
As always, its hard to follow Nintendos strategic thinking, they made mistakes with the N64, they IMO made even bigger mistakes with GCN.
I just hope they figure out what they did wrong in time for Revolution, yet keeping their unique touch.
Post by: Ian Sane on December 02, 2004, 09:00:42 AM
I think they fixed a lot of big mistakes with the N64 and have made a lot of little ones with the Cube. There's no Cube related mistake as huge as sticking with cartridges on the N64. The Cube's all about tons of little mistakes and they add up so in the end the Cube's total mistake "measurement" is higher. So I guess in the end I agree with you I'm just mathematically thinking about it differently.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on December 03, 2004, 12:23:06 PM
BTW, in the current IGN mailbag Matt says something about the "real" story behind the breakup of Nintendo and SK. What could that mean?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 03, 2004, 12:33:26 PM
Post by: Shift Key on December 03, 2004, 03:18:22 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Lying to your fanbase and essentially conning them is going to cost you more in the long run then investing in a developer with one of the best track records ever.
And look what happened to that track record since. To say that it has everything to do with the present is just ignorant. It's a well-known fact that Rare had one of the worst development cycles of a Nintendo developer, and it just got worse as time passed. They are (were?) the biggest British developer, and what do they have to show for it since the change of ownership? A couple of ports, and a couple of 'quick and dirty' games. Worth the investment of $500 million? Hardly.
Post by: ruby_onix on December 03, 2004, 04:16:58 PM
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BTW, in the current IGN mailbag Matt says something about the "real" story behind the breakup of Nintendo and SK. What could that mean?
It means that it's been eight months since SK "left" and we still don't even know if they left or not. They still even have that big red "Nintendo" logo on their website's front page.
I don't know if anyone really even cares what SK is up to anymore.
However the odds seem very good that Matt's gonna have another "Nintendo is doomed!" article up on IGN Cube to try and stir us back up again, sometime in January, or maybe February, when the whole "SK thing" is gonna get "official" like it was supposed to do "any day now" back in April.
Post by: Procession on December 03, 2004, 07:22:26 PM
Post by: xts3 on December 03, 2004, 09:08:58 PM
When Halo 2 sells 5 million copies you know that the masses have a taste for FPS and games like GTA3. Not exactly what I call high brow gaming even though GTA3 was a great game but Halo and Halo 2 were hardly games that were revolutionary in any sense. FPS has been so done to death, only many console gamers that dont touch a PC have never experienced FPS until the current generation of consoles like PS2, GC and Xbox, so they think its "The coolest stuff EVAR!!"
Post by: Dasmos on December 03, 2004, 10:57:16 PM
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Originally posted by: Caillan
During 64 generation, I looked foward to Rare's games more than EAD's. Blast Corps (which is in desperate need of a sequel), Diddy Kong Racing, Goldeneye, Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, Jet Force Jemini, Perfect Dark and Conquer's Bad Fur Day were all great games, and that's eight in a generation. Combine those with the good-but-not-great Killer Instinct Gold and DK 64 and that's ten games, 80% of which were of a very high quality. How many did EAD make?
What are you taking about DK 64 was IMO one of the best games on the 64!!! And DKR was a great games.....i agree witht he others but i had DKR and i rever got around to finsih it due to pure boredom..
Tell me does Rare own the right to any of the DK characters like Chunky, Lanky etc. I know they own the right to Conker and Banjo....did they create the characters or did nintendo?
Post by: odifiend on December 04, 2004, 02:59:23 AM
Post by: AGENTDICKLAURENT on December 04, 2004, 06:06:49 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on December 04, 2004, 06:29:35 AM
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Originally posted by: ruby_onixQuote
Rare was still a good developer. If nothing else, Perfect Dark 2 would have rounded the Cube's lineup nicely. It probably wouldn't have been delayed until the next generation if it hadn't had a change of platform, come under new management, had half its team leave it, and the remainder border on strike because of crap pay/management either.
The Free Radicals jumped ship as soon as Perfect Dark was completed. Martin Hollis quit/was fired after that, but before the move to Microsoft (which pounded the final nail in Rare's Goldeneye/PD team).
The "Joanime" Dark concept art which was revealed when they moved to Microsoft is apparently all that exists (or ever existed) of Perfect Dark Zero. Perhaps if Rare was still with Nintendo, they wouldn't be pretending that they still had the ability to make another Perfect Dark, but I doubt it.
As for Rare's worth, I think it's like Star Trek TNG/DS9/Voyager. They hire a bunch of unknown actors. They do good work. They become famous. Ratings go up. Their pay goes up. And up. And eventually the studio can't afford to make the show anymore. The show gets canned. Everyone gets fired. We're lucky if we get to see Seven of Nine in Boston Public. The studio hires new unknown actors and starts up a new series. We all complain that these people are noobs and we want more TNG. But they do good work. They become famous. Ratings go up. Their pay goes up. We start to feel good about watching Star Trek again. Just at the wrong time. It never ends. Unless the movie studio starts buying orphans.
Edit: Oh by the way, there was apparently a rumor coming out of an XBox forum a few weeks ago saying that Rare's super-fantastic Goldeneye/PD team has been working nonstop on Halo 3 since the success of Halo 1 (while Bungie was working on Halo 2), and that it'll be out next year and will blow everyone's minds. I think it's absurd, but it gave me the idea that Microsoft might have Bungie make the next Perfect Dark, which would mean that another Perfect Dark could be possible, and only because Rare was sold to Microsoft.
I want to know what forum you saw that Halo 3 rumor on. If MS was smart then they would have known that something was fishy with the Rare deal and only bought the company for the franchises. They may have known the company had seen better days, but its franchises, mostly hadn't seen a bad day yet. Perfect Dark is a franchise that could still be used. Imagine a team composed of Bungie and Rare developers making Perfect Dark. Halo 2 may have had Rare working on it behind closed doors for all we know. There is a big controversy right now in MS land, you see unless your Halo 3 rumor is true, Halo 3 will not be launching next year for the Xbox 2. Instead a Halo 2.5 may be released because there just isn't time. Bungie has been quoted as saying they want to work on something new...a Rare franchise like Perfect Dark, Jet Force, or Battle Toads would be something new and economically safe for MS. An established Rare franchise could sell a lot better than some brand new creation from Bungie. Most likely a small group at Bungie is making Halo 2.5 for the Xbox 2 and the rest of the team has moved on to assisting Rare in making sure Perfect Dark makes the launch date.
Post by: Bill Aurion on December 04, 2004, 07:21:49 AM
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Originally posted by: AGENTDICKLAURENT
What I want to know is why the hell Nintendo are giving Kuju their Advance Wars franchise to play with? WTF? Kuju is the #1 overrated developer in the UK today. They haven't developed a single interesting or remotely good game -- and they get ADVANCE WARS?! Gah..
Most likely because they hadn't been given the chance to work on a good franchise yet...I love what Ninty is doing, teaching small 3rd parties how to develop good games and giving them a new lease on life...
Post by: KDR_11k on December 04, 2004, 08:18:22 PM
You know, i shouldn't hang you on your wording but still... When you don't get spoon fed a good franchise you make your own one! 99% of developers start like that. Without a big name, winning fans on the merits of their game, not the merits of whatever they licensed.
Post by: BlkPaladin on December 09, 2004, 12:10:18 PM
___________________________________________________
There is a problem brewing with the video game development industry there are just an abundance of developers and the market can only support a finite amont of games. So the only way any franchise can get attention is to make a me too game. And by and far these are ignored because it is concieved as a rip off game. On the other hand if they do come out with something totally unique they still face not selling their games because by and far they are unknown and the advertising budgets that are alloted for the third party for the Xbox and PS2 goes to the games that are made by known developers and/or known franchises. The 3rd party publishers aren't going to bring out enough advertising to get these games out because they have there own pet projects.
So by and far these good games get sollowed up by the torrents of trash coming out and the develoers go out of business. Nintendo believes that the only way to reinvigorate the industry is by keeping these smaller developers alive and they can't just go out and buy them all. So one of the ony way they can help them is to give out there franchises, because Nintendo probally sits on one of the biggest caches of franchises in the video game market, let them make the games and review them if they do well enough publish it, if its not let them find their own publisher. So we buy it because hey its a Nintendo franchise, and they had help from Nintendo.
And when they make their own game we will have a higher chance of buying it because they did so well on a franchise that Nintendo gave them, may this orginal concept with be just as good if not better.
The only console make that can do this is basically Nintendo because they have the cache dating back to before they made the Famcom, and they don't rely as much on third party games to bring in the money so there big frainchise are their to do what they please with. The third party isn't going to do it because their franchise comes from developers who own the frainchises and its usally the developers only one.
____________________________________________________
Now back on topic Silicon Knight is more than likely making games for all consoles. How Nintendo aquired SK's help was never revealed, and never will be the thing is it probally wasn't money because it would of showed up on the fiscal reports. But by and far they will make games for Gamecube first, why because that is the console they are known on. They gave use ED and the fairly well done port of the first MGS. (Most of the faults in the game were their in the previous game.) The Nintendo fan base will be the most likely to pick up their games, because very few people know that they made the first blood omen nearly at the begining of the PSX's life cycle, or the FF7 "killer" Too Human .
And since they are Gamecube first more than likely they will be the better versions.
Sorry about the amount of text but some things have to be explained in many words to get the point across. And sorry about the normal things (My spelling and gramer.)
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on December 09, 2004, 01:53:36 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 12, 2005, 04:40:03 PM
--Matt Cassaaa-somethingz
Way to get more site traffic there, wacko.
Post by: Savior on January 12, 2005, 07:09:48 PM
Post by: Caillan on January 12, 2005, 07:21:24 PM
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"For instance, stay tuned in February for a massive update on Silicon Knights, the maker of Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem."
--Matt Cassaaa-somethingz
If this is true, this is good news: Nintendo usually releases a high-profile press release around the beginning of Febuary, because little else is happening after the holiday season. If the annoucement about SK is a negative one, I'm sure Nintendo would ensure that is does not coincide with the larger one.
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 12, 2005, 07:42:43 PM
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Originally posted by: Savior
Supposidly Febuary is when Nintendos block of the SK story ends... and thats why they will release it. Its probably going to be highly negative against Nintendo and tell us how Too Human will be an Xbox 2 game
Ahahahaha!
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 12, 2005, 10:57:09 PM
CONSPIRAS333S
Post by: Ian Sane on January 13, 2005, 06:23:03 AM
Personally I just want to know what the hell is going on with SK.
Post by: Savior on January 13, 2005, 11:10:02 AM
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I'm not immediately assuming that the update on Silicon Knights is going to be negative but
this isnt the first time hes announced the SK story. Check out the Mailbag archives. Hes already said, its a story on why SK left Nintendo, and what games they are making now, including if i recall an Xbox exclusive game. It might not be negative but it will be spun that way just wait an see
Post by: KnowsNothing on January 13, 2005, 02:00:42 PM
Post by: odifiend on January 13, 2005, 03:00:08 PM
Post by: Mario on January 13, 2005, 03:19:22 PM
Post by: benjamin on January 14, 2005, 12:23:16 AM
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Originally posted by: Mario
Shouldn't SK have another game out by now?
Or at the very least updated their website? It still proudly sports the Nintendo banner, of all things.
Post by: BiLdItUp1 on January 16, 2005, 07:26:54 AM
than Rare.
Post by: The Omen on January 16, 2005, 04:32:56 PM
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yeah, those dudes only update their site after e3 and to announce new games, in my experience...they update their site even less often
than Rare.
They haven't even updated since Metal Gear was announced , I believe. And I still find it fishy that the Nintendo logo is present on their site. But oh well, I guess we'll know what the hell is going on soon enough.
Secretly, I'm hoping that the announcement is SK has a hand in developing Revolution and that's why there have been no game announcements.
EDIT* There's a rumor that Konami's big news on Jan. 27th is the purchase of SK. That's almost just as bad as Microsoft buying them. Konami offers no support to the GC. Maybe SK will change that...still sucks if true. God I hate Konami
Post by: The Omen on January 21, 2005, 01:32:21 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 21, 2005, 01:42:28 PM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on January 23, 2005, 03:24:24 AM
Well, one more month and then we will see. Maybe, this SK move changes hardly anything, and was just done because it made sense economically in some strange way that I wouldnt understand.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on January 23, 2005, 06:06:44 AM
Post by: Gamefreak on January 23, 2005, 07:16:23 AM
However, I think the fact that it's Fran and Matt making this trip and not Hilary or someone speaks for itself...
Post by: The Omen on January 23, 2005, 12:19:52 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 23, 2005, 12:38:00 PM
Post by: The Omen on January 23, 2005, 02:09:18 PM
Quote
If I recall correctly whenever Matt referred to SK, he said that we havent found out the full story about how SK and Nintendo agreed on future business.
I think it said the split between the two. But there is something deifinitely weird going on. Had SK been purchsed by MS, surely the rumors would be constant. Now all we get are the occasional fanboy rumors.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 23, 2005, 03:20:50 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 23, 2005, 06:49:09 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on January 24, 2005, 03:00:11 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 24, 2005, 08:37:00 PM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on January 25, 2005, 07:07:20 AM
unlike Rare, they were not really sucessful, and a game like ED wouldnt necessary appeal to Xbox gamers in my opinion
I personally believe that whatever now happens, its highly unlikely that SK has split from Nintendo completely
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on January 25, 2005, 07:09:36 AM
apparently its still there, no I might be wrong, but I thought he said something like that
anyway, this is likely to mean nothing
Post by: Pale on January 25, 2005, 07:10:16 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 25, 2005, 07:22:21 AM
All we have is that SK is no longer exclusive to Nintendo
I don't remember anything of the sort being said...All that's been said is "SK is no longer a Nintendo second-party" and "SK will continue making games for Nintendo systems"...
Post by: couchmonkey on January 25, 2005, 08:46:42 AM
I speculate that SK is working on a PS2 / GameCube release of Too Human.
Post by: Gamefreak on January 25, 2005, 12:08:50 PM
Perhaps you need to get your news from Gamespot and not Nintendo fansites trying to twist the words to their satisfaction
SK breaks exclusivity with Nintendo
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 25, 2005, 12:35:11 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on January 25, 2005, 12:45:55 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 25, 2005, 12:57:12 PM
" and nothing new since...
Post by: Berto2K on January 25, 2005, 01:11:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Gamefreak
...and they also never said they would continue making games for Nintendo systems.
oh what?
how about from pgc itself?
Quote
Our relationship with Nintendo is still strong, and it's possible that we may develop games for Nintendo in the future.
http://www.planetgamecube.com/news.cfm?action=item&id=5206
Quotehttp://cube.ign.com/articles/506/506189p1.html
Asked if today's news meant Silicon Knights would not continue to develop for Nintendo platforms, Denis Dyack said: "No it doesn't. It's possible that we may do another game with Nintendo, actually.
From another "reliable" news source, IGN. And your comment about gamespot posting only posting true stories is broken, they were the first to post about the PSP rumoured price point of $400 here in the US from Tokyo Game Show, but then removed the story no more than 30 minutes later.
Post by: Gamefreak on January 25, 2005, 04:02:32 PM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on January 26, 2005, 07:26:51 AM
I just hope Nintendo is smart enough to secure exclusivity for Too Human
but, I guess we cant speculate or even hope on Nintendo doing a smart move
Post by: KDR_11k on January 26, 2005, 08:08:02 AM
Post by: Gamefreak on January 26, 2005, 08:59:06 AM
Speaking of Konami... today's the 26th....
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on January 26, 2005, 12:02:51 PM
and based on MGS:TT why would Konami be so keen on buying SK
Post by: PaLaDiN on January 26, 2005, 03:41:03 PM
Doesn't mean it's happening though.
Post by: ThePerm on January 28, 2005, 08:30:29 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on January 29, 2005, 10:28:55 AM
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on February 01, 2005, 12:03:55 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on February 01, 2005, 01:01:04 PM
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 09, 2005, 07:40:43 AM
The only update is that Silicon Knights has filed for a trademark.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on February 09, 2005, 10:29:24 AM
atleast i hope its good news for cube owners or nintendo fans
I highly doubt matt or fran or whatever would make a trip for nothing
Post by: ruby_onix on February 09, 2005, 03:14:16 PM
Post by: odifiend on February 09, 2005, 03:43:09 PM
Post by: Shift Key on February 09, 2005, 04:44:05 PM
Quote
GameCube Advanced, sourcing a German website, says that a Canadian newspaper says that Silicon Knights is working on the XBox2, and only the XBox2, not the Revolution or PS3.
Mmmmmmm, third hand news. Does that make it any more credible, like those leaked Xbox2 specs?
Post by: KDR_11k on February 10, 2005, 04:52:08 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 10, 2005, 01:01:21 PM
~~~~~
With Great Powaaaa comes great responsibility.
Meaning, with better tools and hardware, crap games can be made with even greater ease! WHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHH
Post by: Gamefreak on February 11, 2005, 11:23:52 AM
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2005, 02:20:42 PM
Quote
Well, EA is currently developing for the XBox 2 but not the PS3 or Rev, does that mean anything?
It means that if anyone was waiting for some secret title that they have been working on for the past 11 months, and think that it'll get revealed along with the Revolution at E3, they're gonna be waiting for a long time.
Post by: Pale on February 12, 2005, 12:57:59 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on February 12, 2005, 04:00:04 PM
Any developer will tell you developing for Xbox is not much more like windows development than GCN is. It's just a myth fanboys came up with cause Xbox started as a PC.
The name of the parts haven't changed but it's heavily modified.
In fact the ATI Radeon 9700 Pro (the card that saved ATI, developed by ArtX based off their GCN chip) is more like the GCN GPU than The Geforce 3 in the Xbox is like a real Geforce 3.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2005, 09:22:06 PM
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 12, 2005, 11:01:39 PM
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on February 27, 2005, 07:32:39 AM
Or else...
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 27, 2005, 09:14:52 AM
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 27, 2005, 09:22:22 AM
"Our visit to Silicon Knights has been temporarily postponed until some minor details are worked out. What that unfortunately means to readers like you is that our stories on the company, including an interview with president Denis Dyack on the split with Nintendo, have also been postponed. We had planned to deliver some of these features later this month, but that's looking less and less likely at this point. I apologize for the delay, but it sadly could not be avoided. As soon as I know more, I'll let you guys know."
I trust that you'll be executing your "or else" clause soon, Stimutacs Addict. I want you to know that you have my support.
Post by: Deguello on February 27, 2005, 12:37:24 PM
Edit: But really, what is stopping them? Why would their split with Nintendo be a big secret that they can't have an interview over it, and just that?
Post by: PaLaDiN on February 27, 2005, 01:10:37 PM
Can't they just call him?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 27, 2005, 01:15:03 PM
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on February 28, 2005, 05:29:33 PM
you're a marked man, Matt Cassanahasapeemapetilon
Post by: Rancid Planet on March 02, 2005, 07:51:32 PM
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 07:29:07 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 11, 2005, 07:39:36 PM
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 07:45:18 PM
Different approaches.... SK needs to be bigger... Differing Ideas.
Nintendo wants to revitalize Japan, and make Smaller Simpler games...
Nothing new so far.
We both liked ED, bla bla... Nintendo is soo awesome... we wanted to work together, bla bla. We can still be friends...
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 11, 2005, 07:46:20 PM
Couldn't he have just sent a press release? That interview said exactly nothing we didn't already know.
And no subtitles or transcript... good, I needed another reason to hate IGN.
Post by: Famicom on May 11, 2005, 07:48:57 PM
Though I find it ironic that a few months after the split Nintendo debut's what's slated to be their largest game yet, the new Zelda.
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 07:49:17 PM
We love Nintendo bla bla bla... If you did youd still work for them Dennis.
Post by: odifiend on May 11, 2005, 07:50:51 PM
When a guy says something like this, it is never good for the relationship... So the break was as simple as the speculation, that the companies philosophies and focis just didn't mesh. I hope SK the best, they definitely have talent - and I hope Nintendo can cater to enough to everyone so we can score some SK stuff on the Revolution.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on May 11, 2005, 07:55:08 PM
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 07:57:16 PM
but at the same time, i slightly worry cause i tend to agree a heck of alot more with his philosophy on gaming than the simple thing...
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 11, 2005, 07:59:42 PM
If everything is really as simple as he makes it sound, why all the secrecy and hush-hush and dramatic unveilings of the same slightly reworded crap we've been hearing since it all started?
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 08:02:36 PM
I agree 110 percent.... Wonder if Dennis still lurks here?
Post by: odifiend on May 11, 2005, 08:09:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
No offense to Denis, but the whole interview is a half-truth. He's hiding something and covering it up with vague equivocal try-to-please-everybody bullcrap that in no way is justification for a business decision. I think he's under an agreement to not say anything.
He's president of a video game company that hasn't quite made it yet, he can't be as arrogant as a lot of leaders without it being a detriment to the company. I don't quite understand how different business focus is not a justifiable business decision.
Dyack praising Nintendo like he is, is his way of saying the break has nothing to do with the way the company is run, it is just business.
EDIT: Could the delay have been due to SK still being under second party contract with Nintendo? Are there second party contracts?
Post by: Mario on May 11, 2005, 08:10:48 PM
Though The Legend of Zelda throws his whole theory out the window.
"You see... nintendo make games, easy to access and very simple now... we like to make movies and stories, and call them games! and maybe slap a bit of gameplay in for those gamers out there, or steal gameplay from another game, but that doesn't matter because our games focus on the story and characters!"
But then, if they liked Nintendo THAT MUCH, why on earth did they "split"? Wouldn't that be a GOOD thing for them to stay? Variety! It's not like they'd have to collaborate with Nintendo for every part of every game ever. Unless Nintendo said "we don't want your games on our console, piss off" I don't think Silicon Knights will stop developing games exclusively for Nintendo.
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 08:11:42 PM
SK wanted more money to expand, and Nintendo noting the sales of ED and MGS Twin Snakes balked... so SK decided to look elsewhere...
That sounds alot more logical than the Philosophies junk....
Post by: odifiend on May 11, 2005, 08:14:24 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 11, 2005, 08:15:18 PM
He says Nintendo wants smaller games while Zelda and Pokemon XD are looking him in the face (which you may not be anticipating, but you have to at least admit has its work cut out for it). Sorry Denis, I don't buy it.
Differing philosophies is not justification for a business decision in and of itself. There has to be concrete examples of occasions where their philosophies differed. SK was still with Nintendo when it started talking about simplicity. Something else drove them apart.
The way Denis is talking, I'm all but convinced that Nintendo just wasn't giving them enough money to do what they wanted. The budget wasn't big enough. That's all I can think of... it would explain why he's not going into further detail.
Oops, Savior posted the exact same thing while I was writing that out.
And I'll take that cookie... if you find any more of them, you would do well to return them to my cookie jar, from whence they undoubtedly came.
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 08:17:43 PM
Post by: odifiend on May 11, 2005, 08:23:18 PM
Possibly it is all interconnected. Nintendo may have decreased SK's budget because simple is cheaper and will often sell better than what SK has cooked up in the past.
P.S. I have this condition called fed-up-with-the-same-game-itis so currently it is impossible for me to anticipate a pokemon game.
EDIT: Fixing Freudian slips.
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 11, 2005, 08:31:32 PM
"P.S. I have this condition called fed-up-with-the-same-game-itis so currently it is impossible for me to anticipate a pokemon game."
Yeah... but like I said, you still have to admit that's going to be anything but a small or simple game. Does not compute.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 11, 2005, 08:41:07 PM
Well if that's true it's a justifiable reason to leave. I'm not very keen on Nintendo going towards "simple" games. If I was a developer working with Nintendo and they told me I had to make stuff like Kirby Air Ride I'd leave too.
Though we still don't know enough. Why couldn't Nintendo make their simple games while Silicon Knights makes the games they still want to? Is Nintendo telling them they CAN'T make the games they want to make? Is SK just using this as an excuse to jump ship? We need more details. Realistically we'll probably get them at E3 when (or if; who knows?) we see some of the Revolution. We'll get an idea of where Nintendo's headed there and then we'll know for sure if SK and Nintendo are on different pages.
I wouldn't say that Metroid Prime and the new Zelda is good enough evidence to suggest that Nintendo isn't focusing on simpler games. That's not a change they would make on the Gamecube. The Cube userbase is established and already expects certain things. No one bought a Cube for games like Electroplankton so they can't focus on stuff like that because no one will buy them. With the Rev they're starting off fresh so they could potentially be waiting for a new console to debut this new focus.
Hell, just look at the DS. I bought the GBA for games like Metroid Fusion, Advance Wars, Golden Sun, Fire Emblem, and The Minish Cap. There's nothing like that currently on the DS. There's some stuff like that in the pipeline but there's nothing here yet. You could say that Nintendo is focusing on simpler games on the DS than they did on the GBA. So it's entirely possible the Rev could have a similar focus.
This is what I feared would be the reason for SK's departure. When we first heard they were leaving I figured they saw what Nintendo's cooking for the Rev and didn't like what they saw so they left. I'm hoping that's not really the case and they're just trying to use Nintendo's recent simple games as a scapegoat so they don't look like a bunch of hypocrites.
Post by: Savior on May 11, 2005, 08:48:32 PM
See the DS is proof to me at least that theres room for both.
Post by: Bill Aurion on May 11, 2005, 08:58:38 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 11, 2005, 08:59:15 PM
Yes, just like Nintendo told Retro to dumb down Echoes.
"I wouldn't say that Metroid Prime and the new Zelda is good enough evidence to suggest that Nintendo isn't focusing on simpler games. That's not a change they would make on the Gamecube. The Cube userbase is established and already expects certain things."
If that's the case, then why make a new Zelda in the first place? They already made one for the GC. Sorry Ian, your argument doesn't make sense to me.
"Hell, just look at the DS. I bought the GBA for games like Metroid Fusion, Advance Wars, Golden Sun, Fire Emblem, and The Minish Cap. There's nothing like that currently on the DS. There's some stuff like that in the pipeline but there's nothing here yet."
At this point in the GBA's lifecycle all there was for it was Castlevania. Your argument is flawed... there's a whole lot of games like that in the pipeline, and Kirby for example is already out in Japan. Your problem isn't with Nintendo's philosophy, it's just a lack of patience.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 11, 2005, 09:09:42 PM
What I mean is that when the Cube launched SK and Nintendo were on the same page and Nintendo had never mentioned anything about making "simpler" games. So the userbase that came to the Cube was the type of gamers expecting and wanting titles like Metroid and Zelda. People bought the Cube expecting deep, long & complex games. No one bought a Cube expecting simple games. The concept just didn't exist at the time. So making a new Zelda makes sense because that's what the userbase wants and expects. Nintendo can't just say "okay our focus is little quirky simple games from now on" and expect it to fly with the Cube userbase because that's not what the console established itself as. They can however do that with the Rev. There's no Rev userbase yet. They can choose to establish the console as one for simple games if they want to.
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 11, 2005, 09:13:53 PM
Besides, I'm having a very hard time believing that Zelda Rev is going to be simple.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 11, 2005, 09:21:05 PM
I assume because they didn't like where things were headed and wanted to explore their options with the competition before the next gen started so they could get in on one of the next generation machines right off the bat.
If Nintendo started focusing on simple games on the Rev would you be surprised? They've been shilling that concept since Iwata took over. I'm just saying that what they're doing on the Cube isn't an indication of what they're going to do on the Rev. If they're going to change their focus they have to do at some point and a launch of a new console is a better time to do it then the tail end of a console that already has certain style of gaming associated with it.
Post by: odifiend on May 11, 2005, 09:23:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Either I'm getting senile or it was definitely more than a year ago. It was near the beginning of Iwata's reign, unless I'm mistaken. I remember discussions specifically about how Retro and SK were proof that Nintendo wasn't being simple in all its games.
"P.S. I have this condition called fed-up-with-the-same-game-itis so currently it is impossible for me to anticipate a pokemon game."
Yeah... but like I said, you still have to admit that's going to be anything but a small or simple game. Does not compute.
I keep coming up with the week of may 26 th, 2004 for when Iwata went on record to say that gamers didn't what complex games. I know that Yamauchi had mentioned the complexity issue prior to that in 2001, but it wasn't as eyecatching as Iwata's verbiage. That would put the simplicity push at a year. I think the Retro and SK thing was proof that Nintendo was catering to an older audience.
And not exactly disagreeing with you, but pokemon is simple and complex. The type relationships are mostly common-sencial in the style of rock, paper, scissors. Each character gets 4 moves. You battle until you are out of characters. The game is incredibly easy to pick up and play. But on the other hand you have your 300+ monsters, battles, rivals, plot, etc...
But which do you really classify Pokemon as complex or simple? The interface is just too manageable for it to be a complex game, all you need is the dpad and one button. Nintendo tried a similar interface with Kirby's Air Ride and I think most would agree that is a simple game, (in fact that is the game that pops up for me everytime simplicity in games is mentioned). But you insinuated that Pokemon was complex and that was likely due to the depth of the game. It seems that many of the simpler games, which as Ian said are most prevalent on the DS, go only for easy interface instead of that in combination with other things and relationships going on. I am not saying Nintendo needs to achieve Pokemon status with all their games, but if the sales of Pokemon are any indication, it is clear that gamers do want complexity. /rant
Post by: MaleficentOgre on May 11, 2005, 10:31:12 PM
Post by: Caillan on May 12, 2005, 03:24:54 AM
Quote
There's more to this than Dyack is letting on...His body language is ridiculously easy to read...(Oh wtf, Ian post...*earplugs*)
Please elaborate. I mean, I realise he's talking crap but I don't really see what he's hinting at. He throws about the usual courtesies which mean nothing and says that Silicon Knights will do what they want. Looking nervous the whole way through. Can any of the staff tell us if he's usually like that?
Do we know if they left Nintendo or if Nintendo gave them the boot yet?
Post by: MaleficentOgre on May 12, 2005, 03:43:47 AM
Iwata: We're not shelling out the money for you to build an empire in canada.
Dennis: but BIGGER MAN! BIGGER! Like, dude. EA is HUGE and they put out like fifty million games, and we love it cause they make the bling.
Iwata: their games are ass. we make good ones without spending five billion on useless crap.
Dennis: soooo, how much extra money will you give us.
Iwata: well, ED sold like ass. and MGSTT sold like ass, soooooooo nothing. make us something hot and we'll improve your budget upon seeing the fire
Dennis: ummmm, no. we're fine.
Yuji: DENNNIISSSSSSS! We got cash! We can be like EA!!!
Dennis: You heard that mr. Iwata?
Iwata: go.
Dennis: WHAAAAT?
Iwata: We're not giving you the money, go home.
Dennis: oh. okay.
Iwata: Tell yuji he's still our personal gimp, and have a nice day
Dennis: ummmm. you sure, cause we were just kind of joking. we really really don't want to make astro boy death factor on ps3. really we don't.
Iwata: Nah, we've already given your money to Retro and intelligent systems. sorry 'bout that.
Dennis: well. okay. I still love you, so if you. . .y'know
Iwata: nah. go ahead
Dennis: alright. and umm, keep in touch okay!
Yuji: SCOOOOOOOORE! Time to get workin' on Amy's malice clone guys. here's some cash, go buy the unreal engine. it'll make rose look even better than she already does. [insert devil horns here]
Post by: FFantasyFX on May 12, 2005, 04:27:46 AM
Post by: odifiend on May 12, 2005, 04:33:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MaleficentOgre
Dennis just spent five minutes stuttering and talking out of his ass. that made no sense to me whatsoever. he's just sitting there contradicting himself. I'd rather have him just come out and tell the truth, no matter how shallow it is. It would be better than listening to what I just heard.
lol, it is funny because "stuttering and talking out of ass" is exactly how I would characterise all of Iwata's speeches prior to GDC.
How would Nintendo give them the boot? I pretty sure they are independently owned, so a kick out is not possible like it was for Rare. However if contracts are involved possibly Nintendo didn't renew. Still to me, it sounds like SK initiated the end of the second party agreement.
Post by: Bill Aurion on May 12, 2005, 05:42:21 AM
Post by: MaleficentOgre on May 12, 2005, 07:31:36 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on May 12, 2005, 07:53:48 AM
Personally, I think he's being honest, but in a vague way. In the interview he says that team sizes need to grow and games need to get bigger. So at the same time as Nintendo is trying to produce more simple, cheap games, SK is looking to increase budgets, which doesn't appeal to Nintendo. Silicon Knights wouldn't be content to keep making ED-budget games on the Revolution, and Nintendo is looking to keep budgets the same or reduce them. The two don't mesh.
So yeah, I agree with those who are saying that Silicon Knights probably asked for more funding and couldn't get it. He could have just said that, but he's trying not to burn down bridges. "Nintendo are a bunch of tightwads and we hope they rot!" isn't a smart way to end a partnership. For that matter, I think he still respects Nintendo a lot, but he wants to make the kind of games that Nintendo won't fund.
Post by: BlackGriffen on May 12, 2005, 12:39:43 PM
Possibly a little of both, even.
BlackGriffen
Post by: chaos on May 12, 2005, 02:27:28 PM
I watched the video, and I do think that your way of adding more content to games and whatnot will be successful for you as a company, however your reasons which you stated you left Nintendo are flawed, the fact that your games are driven by content and Nintendo's games are driven by smaller and simpler philosophy*, being the reason for the split is the equivalent of saying Nintendo doesn't make RPG's therefore RPG's don’t sell on Nintendo's consoles, which Tales of Symphonia proved differently. If anything if all there was were simple games then naturally there would be a market for complex ones, which leads me to believe it is something in addition to what you stated, which you will most likely never go into. The reason I believe this is because less than a month before the split was announced, you in an interview said when you think of Silicon Knights you also think of Nintendo you are one and the same (paraphrased), well at this stage I was well aware of Nintendo's simpler philosophy so I'd guess you would be as well, so it doesn't really make sense to me.
Also Denis some fans may feel betrayed by promising games exclusive to Nintendo beforehand, so I think it’s only fair you promise Too Human for a Nintendo console.
By the way this not not a way of trying to use guilt in a feeble attempt to gain games exclusive on my favourite consoles, (turns head whistling).
But seriously though I have enjoyed your previous games; especially Eternal Darkness which I played through three times, so although I don’t understand your reasoning for the split,(though I suppose you are in a better position to understand these decisions than me), I wish you good luck and have no doubt [aside from Canada being swallowed into the Earth after its invasion of America (don't pretend you don’t know about it)] that Silicon Knights will be a huge and well respected company in years to come.
*It should be noted that while Iwata-san said that there will be a simpler games philosophy he also said that this philosophy would not be at the expense of traditional games but instead in addition to it*
Post by: nemo_83 on May 12, 2005, 03:18:46 PM
Edit: Okay I watched the video and read what you guys have said. Why are so many of you taking this so personally. If anyone should be taking this personal it should be SK who were told by Nintendo where they were going. I don't know how dramatic this split really was behind doors, but obviously it is a juicy news topic, and IGN is going to get lots of hits. I keep hope that Nintendo will persue SK and Sega for some exclusives. I know MS would jump at the chance to unload a ton of money and marketing on any game from the two.
Which brings me to this point. Nintendo is the reason niether ED or MGS succeeded to sale on GameCube. Niether game recieved even sub par advertising, as most Nintendo games get like MP and MP2. I like simple commercials like the Pikmin 2 commercial, the original SSB commercial, and even the SMB3 for the GBA commercial. But ED and MGS were really quality games, big games, offering much more to the expansion of the Cube userbase into the mainstreme than most of the rest of the content on the system. The only thing worse than the below sub par push SK's titles recieved was the way Nintendo had them develop a game that had already been made rather than publishing Too Human. MGS is a great franchise, and a great game, but a game that would not help push the console sells because most people had already played the game and/or owned it. All it looked like was Nintendo getting a port, a great port, but a really late port.
What is most interesting about the video is how he talks about Nintendo doing smaller games. What does this mean? That the REV will be like the DS, with nothing but a collection of mindless minigames? A console of puzzle games you can find for free on the internet. Smaller games without character, characters, story, conflict, resolution, character development, themes, analogies; I feel like puking on my shoes. These qualities do not require the teams to grow and such, they just require more individuals with important things to say.
At GDC didn't Iwata say that the fans, that's us, don't need to worry that Nintendo is going to stop making big games like Zelda...it seems everytime they say something they turn around and do the direct opposite.
Also relating to the smaller games issue, I posted an interview on the REV board a while back with Sega and they talked then about next generation games for Nintendo's handsets being smaller games made by smaller companies.
But I don't like the way Dennis is talking about the industry needing to grow. I think the gameplay needs to grow so there is room for the game design to grow. In other words if the controls become more literal, more simple, more accessable (I'm pointing at FF11 as a prime example of where games don't need to go with controls); then the game developer could actually use the console to make a more complex game. A game that is mature not because of adult content but because the game leaves you thinking as any piece of art should.
I just hope Nintendo doesn't use gyration or haptics to have us cutting carrots in a Wario game.
Recently one of my favorite developers quit making games because of the expansion that Dyack talks about. Oddworld is nolonger making games. They say it is because things are getting too big, the teams are getting too big, there is too much money involved, it is too hard to do something original, and publishers only want to do something safe.
This scares me. I have always believed there was a balance between gameplay and game design. I thought games like Zelda showed that things did not have to be black and white.
This could be a case of Nintendo seeing something else sparkling that has caught their eye. I still wonder why they sold RARE, SK, and Left Field. So they could have their money to spend on their new console launch, a new company purchase (Bandai/Namco), anything else more valuabel than their Dream Team. Our Dream Team.
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2005, 07:10:28 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 12, 2005, 07:25:20 PM
"I feel like puking on my shoes"
Heh.
Post by: nemo_83 on May 14, 2005, 03:26:38 PM
It is like they bought Silicon Knights partially to keep the competition from benefiting from their software, but found they did not know what to do with the company and its talent and thus Nintendo could not find a way to financially benefit from them so they ultimately had to let them go. I hope SK makes some great games with Sega. I hope some of those games come to the REV.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 14, 2005, 08:34:44 PM
That has less to do with SK breaking up with Nintendo and all with Too Human haviung a dev cycle that competes with Duke Nukem Forever.
Post by: nemo_83 on May 15, 2005, 04:29:18 PM
Post by: Mario on May 15, 2005, 08:03:44 PM
Anyway, a quote from 1up.com
Quote
...Meanwhile, Rare may not be the only former Nintendo partisan finding a new home at Microsoft...but we won't be able to talk about this until E3 properly kicks off next week...
I thought "hmm they're talking about Silicon Knights", but then they could be talking about Factor 5 as well? What do you guys think? Of course, this could just be 1up speaking out of their ass, which they do often.
Post by: ThePerm on May 15, 2005, 08:27:32 PM
and while i liked eternal darkness and twin snakes..they just nowhere compare graphically to the likes of Star Wars or Resident Evil 4. Now Resident Evil 4 was much later, but even the pre-rendered resident evil's had more impressive character models. Star wrs was also very impressive..and its hard to appreciate it without running through rogue 2's ship select screen.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 15, 2005, 10:58:49 PM
Post by: Arbok on May 15, 2005, 11:26:22 PM
Post by: Mario on May 16, 2005, 07:13:46 PM
Post by: Caillan on May 16, 2005, 07:22:58 PM
Sega making another console, with Silicon Knights. You heard it here first.
Post by: Rancid Planet on May 16, 2005, 07:42:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Caillan
Sega making another console, with Silicon Knights. You heard it here first.
Oh man! That would be the ULTIMATE underappreciated console company.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 16, 2005, 07:59:06 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on May 18, 2005, 10:44:40 PM
Actually that's not quite true. They're not dumping Sega. But they are "working with Microsoft" to create Too Human, which is now going to be a trilogy of games, exclusive to the Xbox360, and published by Microsoft.
Post by: Caillan on May 18, 2005, 11:56:45 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on May 19, 2005, 07:07:27 AM
Nintendo, you f*cked up. Fix this.
Post by: Pale on May 19, 2005, 07:27:50 AM
Think about it...even square is developing for the x-box now. MS is throwing so much money around developers can't help but say yes. Silicon Knights isn't going to admit that the only reason they jumped ship was for money because that was probably part of the contract. MS wants people to think the developers are coming out of their own free will.
This is why they are bad for the industry.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 19, 2005, 07:47:27 AM
Has Nintendo made any effort to replace Rare or SK? No.
Did Nintendo waste Silicon Knights on an enhanced port of Metal Gear Solid when they could have been working on Too Human for the Gamecube? Yes.
Rare left pretty early on in the Cube's life. The only Cube game they released was one they started on the N64 so I can't blame Nintendo for that. But Nintendo had SK working with them for about 4 years or so and only got one original game out of them (which they then didn't market worth sh!t) and then assigned them on a remake. Nintendo had sufficient time to make the most out of their relationship with SK and they wasted it. Plus making no effort to make ED a hit and assigning them MGS probably contributed in their choice to leave.
Plus if Nintendo did a better job at increasing their market share they wouldn't have to worry as much about devs jumping ship. If they had a bigger market share and more third party support SK or Rare leaving wouldn't be as big of a deal. But they already have a slim amount of support, which is their own fault, so something like this is a bigger deal. If Nintendo was on the ball with the Cube this sort of thing either wouldn't happen or it wouldn't be as significant.
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 19, 2005, 07:52:09 AM
Sorry, but I like Retro more than both of them combined.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 19, 2005, 08:02:22 AM
Retro is not a replacement. We were supposed to get games from them, SK and Rare.
Post by: jasonditz on May 19, 2005, 08:32:38 AM
I agree though that Nintendo needs to do more to replace SK. They've done some expansion in house though (added a new 1st party development team), so that's something. Personally I'd like to see them add a few more in house teams, that's the best way to ensure you don't get in a bidding war with MSFT over a studio. I'd follow the consolidation trend of the industry and get ahold of somebody with some valuable properties and some proven development talent, like capcom.
Post by: Savior on May 20, 2005, 03:20:33 PM
oh and ive heard Too Human is a "hack and slash" game now and not the Deus Ex RPG game it was originally intended to be. No big loss.
Post by: Artimus on May 20, 2005, 05:44:28 PM
Post by: nickmitch on May 20, 2005, 06:59:05 PM
Step 1: Make a deal with microsoft.
Step 2: Make crappy 360 games that SEEM good to get people to buy them then put in a heck load of bugs and bad graphics and short plots/ levels.
Step 3: Infuriate Microsoft so that the deal is broken.
Step 4: Port bad games to the Rev and fix all the problems.
Step 5: Dance in happiness.
Step 6: Stop before there is a need for a step 7.
Post by: anubis6789 on May 21, 2005, 05:42:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PaleZer0
Think about it...even square is developing for the x-box now. MS is throwing so much money around developers can't help but say yes. Silicon Knights isn't going to admit that the only reason they jumped ship was for money because that was probably part of the contract. MS wants people to think the developers are coming out of their own free will.
If SK did leave for more money there may be another reason they wont say besides an NDA. If SK said they left Nintendo over money wouldn't that make it appears as if they were sell outs? Wouldn't that look bad for what many GCN fans considered the best 2nd party Dev? Would it not also look like SK betrayed their own princples about game development for some quick cash?
I mean I would understand if that were the case. What if SK needed money because they fell on hard times and Nintendo could not give it to them. Of course I could just be delusional.
Post by: Mario on May 21, 2005, 06:14:33 AM
Quote
Has Nintendo made any effort to replace Rare or SK? No.
How the hell do you know? Oh, and the entire Resident Evil series more than makes up for missing out on Grabbed by the Ghoulies, which is all we would have gotten so far if Rare and SK were both with Nintendo. We've gotten 2 out of the 2 SK games released this generation and 1 out of the 2 Rare games released this generation, it's Rares fault for taking so damn long with their games, don't blame Nintendo for not having games that aren't even out yet.
By the time another Rare or SK game is out, Nintendo will have had/already has several "replacements" for them.
Post by: Rancid Planet on May 22, 2005, 10:27:23 PM
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on May 23, 2005, 05:37:07 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on May 23, 2005, 12:24:53 PM
Yeah but if you remember initially we were to get the entire Resident Evil series PLUS exclusive support from Rare and Silicon Knights. It's a not a replacement.
Post by: vudu on May 23, 2005, 12:29:38 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on May 23, 2005, 12:31:50 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 23, 2005, 12:33:27 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on June 28, 2005, 02:31:07 PM
The truth has finally been revealed.
Quote
"I spoke with Matt from IGN" - Denis Dyack
Post by: Ian Sane on June 28, 2005, 02:46:35 PM
This is pretty much my exact concern regarding Nintendo's future. Of course everytime I bring something like this up I get a lot of "Nintendo is making games for non-gamers and hardcore gamers" and then the DS gets brought up even though it supports my concern. Anyhoo, an inability of reaching a "halfway point" doesn't sound very good. That doesn't sound like Nintendo making both simple and complex games. This may very well be an excuse that makes SK look better than "MS offered us huge sacks of money" would, but it's not unbelievable or anything. Nintendo's been talking about simple games and non-gamers a lot, the DS is full of games that fit this description, and former Nintendo loyalists like Silicon Knights and Factor 5 are jumping ship. There is certainly is a lot of evidence to suggest Nintendo is going "simple" on us.
Post by: ruby_onix on June 28, 2005, 02:57:18 PM
If you don't like the DS as an example (and I know you don't), just look at Twilight Princess. And Fire Emblem.
(Although I do think there's an issue here in that Nintendo/Iwata is doing a very poor job in telling people what to expect from them, and that Silicon Knights admits to knowing absolutely nothing about the Revolution.)
