Post by: theRPGFreak on October 11, 2004, 08:05:40 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 11, 2004, 08:11:55 PM
Post by: theRPGFreak on October 11, 2004, 08:20:40 PM
amen to that Bill
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 11, 2004, 08:33:49 PM
And relaxingly venture thru Metroid Prime for the 5.1 audio experience.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 11, 2004, 09:04:37 PM
Are you kidding? With upped specs they could allow us to control more than 100 Pikmin in Pikmin 3. Improved technology allows for more than graphics. I think having more advanced AI, more objects on the screen at once with no frame rate drops, improved physics, etc. makes improved technology worthwhile. Those are all gameplay related improvements.
I wouldn't buy a console just because it was great graphics yet at the same time I wouldn't not buy a console just because it's graphics didn't have a big leap forward. It's all about what games are available. Even if graphics hit a wall (and they haven't yet) there's still places to go with gameplay and it doesn't need a new controller either. The PS3 with marginally better-than-Xbox graphics and the exact same controller can still have an innovative system seller made for it.
When Nintendo talks about how graphics have hit their limit to me it sounds like Nintendo has hit their limit. This is the company that thought that Super Mario Sunshine's models were good enough even though SSBM's Mario model looked superior. Judging by the appearance of most of their first party titles they just have very low standards of what is good enough regarding graphics. It's the same thing with sounds. Nintendo often uses the same dated cartridge era sound effects they used on the N64 for their games. They're not a company pushing the limits on technology so they can't really say we've hit a limit. THEY just don't want to go further.
Now I want to see innovative games as I'm tired of seeing the same stuff over and over again and that includes Nintendo with their endless GBA (and now DS) ports/remakes, cash-in Pokemon rehashes, and overuse of franchise characters. So the Revolution does interest me if it delivers. Most gamers don't think like me though. Most would buy a PS3 even if it just had more of the same old. In fact they would probably but it because it's more of the same. So Nintendo should be careful if they're making future plans based on what people like me think. The public is not going to get sick of repetition any time soon.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 12, 2004, 02:13:21 AM
Yeah, screenshots for PS3/Xbox2 are going to look unimpressive at the moment, maybe because the consoles don't even exist. It's like when EA tried to pass off that fancy game footage as PSP graphics back at E3.
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 12, 2004, 02:31:31 AM
GRRRR, stop taking everything so literally! My point was that gameplay far exceeds my care for visuals...
Post by: Ms.Pikmin on October 12, 2004, 05:54:30 AM
While Nintendo is a large company that produces technology, the people running it are only human. Perhaps you ought to remember that and apply some of that good Christian understanding and forgiveness. They are bound to have flaws and make mistakes. But we must be patient and show we can rise above the frustration we feel when they make some of the decisions they do.
Pray for them, Ian. Pray.....
Post by: RABicle on October 12, 2004, 06:15:31 AM
Instead of looking to God, who's like a corporation himself (doens't care about our prayers,) we should look to communism. Once the workers and the people are behind the means of production at Nintendo creativity will flourish as we will be able to make the games we want and not chase the dollar.
Post by: Jdub03 on October 12, 2004, 06:47:41 AM
Post by: PaLaDiN on October 12, 2004, 07:21:34 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 12, 2004, 07:36:42 AM
I don't feel like commenting on relgion, but the reason many prayers aren't answered is because allowing someone to do everything for you is a sign of weakness...Something I thought you disliked, correct? =)
Post by: RABicle on October 12, 2004, 07:47:05 AM
QuoteYes
Originally posted by: Jdub03
---------------- are you serious???
And listen up Paladin and Bill. Revealing people to be hypocrits, through their contradicting actions and beliefs is possibly the lowest and weakest act possible. You two make me sick! Never reply to this thread again!
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 12, 2004, 07:49:52 AM
Post by: RABicle on October 12, 2004, 08:11:33 AM
I think Nintendo are right about graphics reaching their limit, sort of. Technology can and will go infinately further in video games, however I doubt the actual visual quality of our games will go too much higher simply becuase it won't be economically viable for game companies to keep up with the technology. The amount of time that is spent on making all these curvey objects and tectures is becoming too long already and it will get to the point where they can't be bothered making it any better. Soon developers will relsies that making games look better than DOOM3 (the current benchmark) provides no extra atmosphere and even though they could make it lok better they will wisen up and spend the better technology on cooler AI and the like.
But I'm relying on humans to show intelligence to accomplish this, which isn't going to happen.
Post by: PaLaDiN on October 12, 2004, 08:16:07 AM
Hasn't happened yet. They're still caught up in an imaginary pissing contest.
Post by: Syl on October 12, 2004, 12:23:36 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 12, 2004, 12:59:46 PM
Communist Game Development GO!
MARIO IS COMMUNIST, A MODERN EMBODIMENT OF STALIN FED TO OUR FUTURE, OUR CHILDREN.
Proof of Mario's link to Communism
Post by: Mario on October 12, 2004, 05:07:25 PM
Post by: mantidor on October 12, 2004, 09:37:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Graphical innovation will stop once designers realize the average consumer can't tell the difference.
Hasn't happened yet. They're still caught up in an imaginary pissing contest.
I think its already starting to happen, as I said in other thread, for my dad mario 64 its exactly the same as mario sunshine and mario in ssbm, ok, its my dad... then how about my cousin?, she only spotted better graphics in sunshine until she payed close attention to the water, which looks really great in this game, and she is not that ignorant about "polygon counts" as obviously my dad is. and for example I cant tell the difference between mario in sunshine and in ssbm. Nintendo is definately right about it, the graphics have started to reach their peak.
I have a question though, have Nintendo really said the wont be upgrading specs? or they just mentioned the wont focus on graphics? I think they never said "the revolution will use cube hardware with a new thing we have yet to announce!!!"...
and better specs arent needed for better AI, what its needed is better programmers and thus better developers, sadly most developers go in a similar path that M$ takes when making their OS's "instead of making an efficient and well thought software, lets just make a crappy OS that misuses resources, thus forcing consumers to upgrade their hardware if they want to use windows XP!!! like if we care, we have a monopoly after all"
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 13, 2004, 03:18:03 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on October 13, 2004, 08:27:09 AM
A) Doing something so revolutionary that it requires a new processor (OMH, I CAN CONTROL TEH GAMEZ WITH MY BRANE POWER!!!)
B) Keeping up with technological jumps
Since Bill is right that Nintendo has said it will keep up with technology, I think B is much more likely.
I personally believe graphics are reaching a stand-still too. I'm pretty surprised that someone would consider Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine graphically interchangable, but I still agree that the graphical improvements between this generation and next are going to be mostly lost on the casual observer.
Post by: Syl on October 13, 2004, 01:11:20 PM
Processer: Nintndo + microsoft = Being devoloped by IBM, Sony = being co devoloped by IBM.
Graphics Engine: Nintendo+microsoft = being devoloped by ATI, Sony = I really have no clue.
ATI/IBM are the clear winners of next generation hardware.
Post by: Ian Sane on October 13, 2004, 01:24:07 PM
Graphics Engine: Nintendo+microsoft = being devoloped by ATI, Sony = being devoloped by Sony."
Due to the rumoured similarities of Nintendo's and Microsoft's next machines I wonder if we'll see a common hack where people get one machine to play the other's games. In the short term that could potentially help both companies since their games would unofficially sell to two userbases and thus sell more games. Though if it became a really common hack you might start to see third parties focusing on one over the other since they know that the game will sell to both userbases regardless of which console it's on. This would deny one company of third party licencing fees. Still it's a neat possibility.
Post by: Deguello on October 13, 2004, 11:43:23 PM
Control is the next innovation. Until I have a controller in my hands, I'm watching a movie.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 14, 2004, 02:56:38 AM
Post by: Bloodworth on October 14, 2004, 05:14:09 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on October 14, 2004, 07:53:58 PM
There's one flaw with that example: they're portables. Nintendo (I assume) went with "inferior" hardware because of battery life and price. With consoles you don't have to shrink everything down so you can be more flexible with the cost of the hardware and obviously battery life isn't an issue at all. If the DS was not a portable odds are it would be more on par graphically with the PSP and would use optical media.
Post by: ThePerm on October 15, 2004, 03:18:51 PM
the graphics for morrowind arent too shaby...the thing that impresses me are the size of the levels, the character detail and the grass. The one thing i assume is Nintendo will take the things the next generation systems can do and make them better.
Post by: kurst_chao3030 on October 24, 2004, 08:25:48 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on October 24, 2004, 09:05:29 PM
Dude, no.
Once developers realize this whole graphical pissing contest thing is stupid and start focusing on the actual game, gaming can only get better.
I'm actually looking forward to it... I'm glad Nintendo is concentrating less on graphics, although I get the feeling I'm the only one. Bah.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 24, 2004, 09:23:03 PM
Hahahahaha... Do you really believe that? Publishers decide the terms and publishers make decisions for marketing reasons and "better gameplay" just isn't a good marketing bullet point. When they don't have graphics to boast with anymore they'll find a new thing to push. Gameplay isn't something that can be summed up in marketing terms, it's relative and for a marketing droid that means they can always write "revolutionary cool new gameplay" on the box no matter how bad it actually is. Gameplay just has to exist, graphics and stuff like that can be shown on the box.
Post by: kurst_chao3030 on October 24, 2004, 09:37:32 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 25, 2004, 01:03:21 AM
And it's for this same reason that the Entertainment industry(at least here in America, but most likely the world) is in the toilet...
Post by: KDR_11k on October 25, 2004, 05:04:30 AM
Concrete example: EA has graphics teams where everybody has a very specific role and your average character has maybe 6-7 people involved in the creation process. Nintendo currently seeks a new lead artist whose job will be modeling (low and hipoly), rigging, animating and UV mapping, pretty much everything except textures. Ninty's art lead would do the job of 3-4 EA employees. Of course he wouldn't be as fast as those 3-4 people but he'd be cheaper (a top guy, all skills and art lead, gets maybe 100k/a, a beginner level employee about 40k/a, IIRC). Smaller, cheaper teams won't produce the same quality of output in the same timeframe with thew same number of objects but they're cheaper and allow for lower sales numbers to break even. Of course, since art leads are supposed to be allrounders it could be that I'm interpreting more into it than what's there.
Post by: couchmonkey on October 25, 2004, 10:18:51 AM
Maybe it will always be possible to hype graphics. Until the day when games look like the holodeck in Star Trek, there will be room to add another blade of grass, or improve water physics, and they'll push those things even though most people can't tell the difference. I remember Steve Jobs talking about the amazing detail in the carpet in Toy Story 2...CARPET! That was probably when I first realized that computer graphics could keep improving for many years or even decades to come, And also that I don't really care. Not to say it isn't nice, but carpet shouldn't be something worth mentioning when you talk about a movie or a video game (unless it's a technical discussion about computer graphics).
There are also other ways to hype graphics. How many hours of awesome graphics did you pack into the game? How many unique objects does the universe have? Talking to some friends on the weekend, a favourite Sims 2 feature that one person brought up was the ability to arrange bone structures in the face. It IS cool, but is it part of the game proper? Well, actually maybe it is. I think that's a question of taste. Many people don't consider the Sims itself to be a real game. But I don't want to get caught up in semantics here, I just thought it was intesting to think about what publishers will hype as graphics head towards their technical peak.
Post by: PaLaDiN on October 25, 2004, 07:01:52 PM
And when publishers get it through their heads that spending more money on graphics is going to drive up costs more than sales, then they'll start creating games that people enjoy more so sales will go up.
Like you said, "Now they're preaching gameplay over graphics because they realize that THEIR gameplay IS a selling point."
Once graphics are homogeneous and the average consumer can't tell the difference, publishers will be forced to make their gameplay a selling point. Not entirely of course, but certainly more than they are now. I don't see how you can deny that.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 25, 2004, 11:01:34 PM
Also, graphics are quantifiable. A suit cannot tell Ocarina of Time from Custer's Revenge when it comes to gameplay but they understand numbers. With bad games the developers are often unaware that they're making a bad game, to them it seems like a good game (artist's blindness, while you work on something you cannot spot its flaws). Making a bad game doesn't necessarily stem from only focussing on graphics or something, making a bad game can also come from enjoying things the masses don't or having a skillset that differs greatly from what the masses have. There is no universal formula for making good gameplay and there is no scale to measure how successful you have been. Feedback on gameplay is slow, it can take years until you've reached a point where you can see whether your idea works at all.
When we made Wakou (that's how we refer to the game, I don't recall its full name...) for some competition, at first the gameplay seemed like a good idea. When I drew up the art assets everyone told me how great they looked (and indeed we won second place in the graphics category) but we didn't realize until a few hours before the end that the gameplay we were going for didn't really work well. We only spent 72 hours to develop that game, imagine someone figuring out that the gameplay is fundamentally flawed and it's best to start over one year and a half into development.
Post by: 1day on October 26, 2004, 02:14:28 PM
http://media.pc.gamespy.com/media/702/702491/img_2425197.html
YOU ALSO have to remind yourself of how ENORMOUS the latest Elder Scrolls have been, then you will realize your error in judgement
Post by: KDR_11k on October 26, 2004, 09:54:48 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on October 26, 2004, 10:19:55 PM
Post by: theRPGFreak on October 27, 2004, 10:24:09 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on October 27, 2004, 10:42:39 AM
Post by: Gamebasher on November 02, 2004, 05:13:37 AM
And Nintendo knows that! So people can whine and lament and complain and slam them as much as they like, when they don´t follow the "trend" of super-cool graphics and lesser gameplay. I owned an xbox last year, but I couldn´t stand it´s big black greedy appearance and it´s near total lack of games made with love! Xbox games simply don´t have the wonderfull atmosphere I feel in every Nintendo game, so I couldn´t keep it. It had to go!
But the GameCube...is still there and isn´t going anywhere! And I do agree with Ms. Pikmin that we should pray for Nintendo, a lot. As she (are you a she?) correctly points out, Nintendo consists of people who like any other human beings are prone to making mistakes and able to make decisions that have certain consequences. Some like them, some don´t. It isn´t easy to be a gamedesigner these days, where the battle for the gameplayers is raging stronger than ever, and where Nintendo must give both what children with their concerned parents and families wants, and what more affluent and independent young adults want.
So I agree to her point, and as a true all-out Nintendo Supporter (not fanboy, mind, as they can´t see anything wrong with the one or ones they adore and so lack the ability in most cases to critisize where appropriate), I think we should bear with Nintendo in good and in bad and be gratefull they still exist! Think I wasn´t dissapointed with them many times? I was. But look where they are taking us now! To a frickin´ revolution...starting with the DS!
Post by: Kirby_PopStar on November 13, 2004, 01:02:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey Anybody remember 'Picasso'?
And here I thought I was the only one...
Post by: Kirby_PopStar on November 13, 2004, 01:04:27 AM
Post by: Gamebasher on November 15, 2004, 05:27:01 AM
We should all learn to write crushingly powerfull, cunningly outwitting, damn cool little topics and post that will so impress Nintendo once they have their weekly search of the PGC Forums for the latest gossip about themselves, that they will give the best contributors a Platinum GCN with a WaveBird and a copy of Metroid Prime 2!
We DESERVE that! Don´t you agree?
Afterall, who support Nintendo 110%, and rake the dirt out of their fireplace for them when they forget it themselves!
We do!
Not that I ever expected or demanded they gave us anything, but would be NICE anyway!
Maybe they should create a competition, where the person who write the nicest words about them, will become President of Gametesting Department, with an army of gametesters to do the hard work, while he or she would only have to supervise the others and drink cokes!
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on November 25, 2004, 06:50:20 AM
