Post by: Luigi on September 29, 2004, 09:01:10 PM
I'm not asking which system you think is better. I am both alarmed and intrigued by the last few months NPD results and how it looks tough for Sony. Which is quite odd.
Post by: Urkel on September 29, 2004, 09:59:51 PM
The impression I get from the people at work is that the Xbox is now THE cool system. Whenever they talk about videogames, it's usually the Xbox. This can only help Nintendo. Sony has relied for a long time on their name and for being perceived as cool. Take that away, and Sony is seriously screwed. The Xbox appeals to much of the same crowd the PS2 does, so it would make sense that the Xbox doing better would affect Sony more instead of Nintendo.
Plus, depending on how arrogant and careless Sony may get by the next gen, they may end up making a colossal mistake, thus giving Microsoft a chance to capture a huge portion of Sony's marketshare. If this were to happen, I believe that most of the western devs would flock to the Xenon, and most of the Japanese devs to the Revolution. This would result in a healthy Snes/Genesis style competition that we've all been waiting for.
Do I think Sony would just go away? No. But it seems as though their days of unchallenged domination in the console world may be slipping away.
Of course, that's a lot of ifs, but it doesn't seem too farfetched. It's like all the Sony execs were whacked in the head with a shovel until they forgot the reason why they had overtaken Nintendo in the first place.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on September 29, 2004, 10:14:03 PM
Post by: joshnickerson on September 30, 2004, 03:40:58 AM
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Originally posted by: Urkel
It's like all the Sony execs were whacked in the head with a shovel until they forgot the reason why they had overtaken Nintendo in the first place.
Revenge.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 30, 2004, 07:23:40 AM
Though in terms of what they provide to the market there is no real need for both Sony and MS to have consoles because they prove provide the same types of games. They cater more to casual gamers and the same types of games are popular on both systems. The Cube's popular titles are more hardcore. One thing that will help Nintendo is that they actually have brand loyality. There are Nintendo fans. There are virtually no Sony fans. People just buy that console because it has the most games. MS has more fans because of Halo but really it's more about third party titles or what devs MS buys out. So it may be possible for MS or Sony to kill the other and still have Nintendo survive. But it's going to be tough.
An industry with just Nintendo and MS would be great. Why? Because Nintendo would then be the clear leader in Japan and thus get all of the games I really like. MS would be stronger in America and would attract more of the American titles which I usually don't care about anyway. In the 16 bit wars Nintendo was dominant in Japan while Sega appealed to America so we would be kind of recreating that type of rivalry. The split between Japanese and American third parties would be enough that neither console would get a very clear position over the other. We would have REAL competition again.
Post by: couchmonkey on September 30, 2004, 01:36:36 PM
But I wouldn't bet against Sony just yet. Microsoft will never be able to take Sony in Japan unless it gets support from Square Enix (or from every other Japanese dev that makes an RPG.) Besides which, as Nintendo and even Sega showed us, a hardware maker can remain standing for a long time even if it loses big chunks of market share. I think it's possible for Sony to be squeezed out, but it won't be quick and easy.
I think Sony needs to get more aggressive. I personally have found Sony's marketing to be no better than Nintendo's this generation: when the Gamecube and Xbox first came out I was surprised at how weak Sony's response was, and a lot of Sony's recent ads have been awfully lame. Then there's Grand Theft Auto...it was Sony's trump card, and now it's on Xbox. Late, yes, but there nonetheless. Along with Tomb Raider, Crash, Resident Evil, Metal Gear and Final Fantasy, GTA is one more sign to casual gamers that you don't have to own a PS2 since most of the popular games wind up on other consoles eventually anyway.
Could Nintendo wind up being the loser? Yes. Sony has actually been pretty kid-friendly all along, and I know hardcore Sony fans who play the PS2 for it's RPGs and wacky Japanese games. I think it could eclipse Nintendo.
Post by: boggy b on October 03, 2004, 01:12:18 PM
Post by: joeamis on October 04, 2004, 01:48:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Though in terms of what they provide to the market there is no real need for both Sony and MS to have consoles because they prove provide the same types of games. They cater more to casual gamers and the same types of games are popular on both systems. The Cube's popular titles are more hardcore.
MS would be stronger in America and would attract more of the American titles which I usually don't care about anyway.
Like the other guys said, it's because the majority of people who wanted a PS2 already have one... The fact that XB are getting closer to PS2 sales is bad for Nintendo. Many of the people buying XB already own PS2. And now there 2nd console is the XB instead of the GC.
I disagree that there is no real need for both Sony and MS to have consoles because they provide the same types of games. I own PS2 and GC and there are tons of titles on XB I want to play but can't (that are quite different from PS2 games I like). There are alot of titles on every system that are different from the others. I wouldn't call the Cubes popular titles more hardcore, most of them are the 1st party games of long standing franchises. The XB has shooters and PC games, among other games that are really hardcore, games I find that only a certain portion of gamers play. The fact that you mention MS would attract more American titles you don't care about is part of the number of titles that are hardcore for many gamers. Titles that aren't popular in japan, fps and derivatives of fps games.
Post by: Luigi on October 07, 2004, 01:54:34 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on November 10, 2004, 09:32:17 AM
First, on lunch with a few coworkers last month, Halo 2 came up. Three were very interested in it, I was mildly interested in it, and the other two guys don't play videogames. The three guys who are very interested in it don't own or care about any other console.
Second, my dad brought the topic up one night pointing out that Xbox is the only console any of his coworkers talk about. And they do so regularly.
Third, a diehard Cube supporter I know recently bought an Xbox. And Xbox seems to be the console of choice for Nintendo fans that want a second machine.
Fourth, on Nintendorks someone commented lately that he met a girl who told him he wasn't a real gamer since he didn't have the most powerful system and she was planning to replace her PS2 with an Xbox.
Ignoring the purely enraging nature of the comments from the girl in the last point, I'm beginning to think that Xbox really is cooler than PS2 now...in North America. Corporate suits lead the charge to Xbox coolness, but even teenage girls are starting to follow! I'd say that Xbox may be entering mainstream consciousness as the "in" console.
This brings up one more interesting point...if Microsoft releases the Xbox 2 before the other consoles, does it risk falling victim to it's own "most power" hype? Or will it take advantage of an early lead to become #1 in the western nations?
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 10, 2004, 10:10:55 AM
Not where I live...Of the girls that I've seen that play videogames, I find that Mario Kart is the most popular title...
Post by: KDR_11k on November 10, 2004, 10:28:02 PM
Means I'm a weirdo with my (not very shiny) new PS2?
Post by: MaleficentOgre on November 11, 2004, 11:17:03 AM
Post by: Pale on November 11, 2004, 11:31:37 AM
Post by: MaleficentOgre on November 11, 2004, 06:24:59 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 11, 2004, 09:57:42 PM
Analysts predict the PS3 will not grab first place again but I doubt Sony will fall too far. I don't know what will happen with Nintendo but I doubt MS is going to reverse positions on Sony. Maybe 60-40 but not as clear cut a victory as Sony took this gen.
Post by: Caillan on November 11, 2004, 10:54:28 PM
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I would assume that if the PS2 is the clear market leader and the Xbox is gaining ground that in the future it would be only Sony and MS not MS and Nintendo. As much as I hate to see it happen it's most likely that the last place console would be the first to drop out.
Nintendo has a sort of niche, and is attempting (rather unsuccessfully so far) to build on that. Sony and Microsoft are fighting for North America.
I guess it's not so common anymore, but remember when Microsoft spread the rumours that Nintendo was pulling out of the console sence? Nothing's changed since then: even with the worst possible advertisng and imagee, Nintendo continues to be a profitable company.
Post by: couchmonkey on November 12, 2004, 04:30:50 AM
I believe PS3 will take first place again, but I won't be surprised if Microsoft's next system is neck-and-neck with it in North America.
Bill: You're right in that most girls I know are also more into games like Mario Kart or Super Monkey Ball than the types of games the Xbox is famous for...I'm just arguing that Xbox has tied up the coolio corporate market and now it seems to be spreading more into the mainstream. I've actually felt in the past that if Nintendo could figure out a way to sell GameCubes to women, it would probably build a huge new market for itself. I have a lot of female friends who love the GameCube but simply aren't interested in buying one.
Post by: TMW on December 10, 2004, 07:09:15 AM
I hadn't realized the attitudes have changed so much latley. The majority of my friends either don't play videogames or will play anything, so I've been rather sheltered from the common persons perceptions of gaming as a whole...but I don't think Sony can be counted out just yet. They have a huge presence in the market, and I've noticed a disparity in the size of the PS2 game selection and the GC's at Walmart and Kmart and the like. For Sony to drop out of the race like some of you guys have predicted, they would have to screw up on a level that would make Sega's record look spotless.
As happy as I would be to see Sony crash and burn, I just don't see it happening any time soon.
Post by: The Omen on December 11, 2004, 08:22:35 PM
Quote
Not where I live...Of the girls that I've seen that play videogames, I find that Mario Kart is the most popular title...
\
Well, as much as I would love that to be the true hard facts, it's simply not...xbox has ,by a sizeable margin, a bigger crowd than the GC...saD But true.
Post by: couchmonkey on December 14, 2004, 05:56:40 AM
I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me. I think it's interesting.
Post by: KDR_11k on December 16, 2004, 06:18:47 AM
Post by: boggy b on December 25, 2004, 02:59:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Well, if Sony fell to #2 they'd be dead. They have nowhere near the development ability of Nintendo or the cash of Microsoft. Why would anyone want to develop for Sony's next system when it isn't market leader, takes additional time to compensate for idiotic hardware design and has the weakest overall output? MS gives out money hats and Nintendo offers more features. Sony? Well, to a developer it doesn't mean crap that the system can read DVDs.
Lots of ifs and buts! Let's address it more objectively:
- PS3 will not have 'idiotic hardware design', and nor will it take longer for companies to port to PS3 like they have with PS2 this generation. Sony have already pledged to provide full-featured SDKs for PS3 a long, long time before the console's release (it wouldn't suprise me if a few companies have already recieved the 'Beta' version). The recent announcement that nVidia will supply the GPU can only help - nVidia have a long history of supplying excellent support for all of their products to developers, including the XGPU (and therefore, we can assume the PS3 GPU aswell).
- PS3 will probably not have the weakest overall output. My guess is that it will be basically the same as Xenon, and ahead of Revolution: Nintendo are already saying 'games not pixels' (or whatever their new tagline is). It would be a nonsesnse to assume that Nintendo will downplay graphics and still have graphics that compete with the other two (or, are of a similar level).
By my reckoning, were Sony to go into second place next round, it would put them in basically the same position as XBox this round, and there's not exactly a drought of games for XBox, is there?
Looking at it logically, if Nintendo are forced to rely purely on their 'old faithful' to carry them through, they could get on very bad footing. It's poor financially to rely on exactly the same consumers all of the time. You need to appeal to as many people as possible to survive.
Post by: KDR_11k on December 25, 2004, 08:16:16 PM
Thing is, Sony is including the Cell. That's already idiotic hardware design. I mean, the thing was designed for clustering and multipurpose use. By including a GPU Sony defeats the point of having the thing be able to change its purpose (well, you could make it a sound processor or something but I have a feeling nobody's going to throw a full processor at sound processing) and clustering doesn't work well with interactive realtime environments. It also forces developers to again handle the hardware more carefully assigning tasks carefully to prevent one CPU from being overloaded while another idles. Multithreading also adds complexity where it isn't needed and introduces more points where bugs could appear.
Post by: boggy b on December 26, 2004, 03:43:43 AM
PS3 will basically have a standard PC architecture, but instead of an Intel or AMD CPU, it will be a STI Cell CPU. Is that really such a difficult concept to comprehend? People are so anti-Sony here that even when they make good descisions they get critiscized.
If you want to talk about idiotic hardware design, talk about PS2. Even today, most developers aren't using VU0 because of the ridiculous levels of assembler microcode optimisation required for it not to suck. And what the hell were they thinking when they didn't put a decent GPU in there, only 4MB of VRAM, and then topped it off with basically no developer support?!
Compared to PS2, PS3 will seem like Deep Thought
Post by: KDR_11k on December 29, 2004, 06:55:11 AM
Hm, considering that IBM source said Sony and MS get the same CPUs and MS is going for a multicore approach, perhaps the Cell is rather close to a PPC and MS is going to use it as well?
Post by: boggy b on December 30, 2004, 02:58:16 AM
Also, IBM never confirmed that they would be using the same CPU for both. That was a rumour. All I know is that if I was a Sony or Toshiba, I'd be pretty pissed off to be paying IBM billions of dollars to 'make' a CPU that they already had! Not to mention that the 'rumour' has already propogated all over the internet, so if it were true Sony would know it by now. Oh, and on top of that, Sony and Toshiba both manufacture their own microprocessors and have been closely involved with Cell production, so they'd have to be pretty thick not to notice that it wasn't just the PPC architecture (you know, what with them helping to design it).
Until we hear further news on Cell, I don't think it's correct to assume that it will even use PPC cores, let alone that it's an identical chip to the Xenon.
Post by: KDR_11k on December 30, 2004, 04:59:51 AM
About the hype: It doesn't matter what Sony said directly, they knew which statemants to make to make the people assume the Cell would be the second coming. Sorry for the politics example but George W Bush never said there was a link between the WTC attack and Iraq yet somehow the majority of the people believe this after listening to him. Why? Because marketing people know how to drop "hints" that, while under proper linguistic analysis, are perfectly true but when read without such advanced analysis seem to say something false. Since the false information is only in the mind of the reader the speaker isn't (legally) spreading false information. This is also VERY popular with the yellow press.
Post by: boggy b on December 30, 2004, 06:34:45 AM
Hype, I'm not going to get into. But I blame Sony's fans far more than Sony. XBox and GCN both had similar comments made about them by Microsoft and Ninty respectively (and the press shots of the early graphics wre both way above what the systems can realistically achieve), and neither got as over-hyped.
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on December 30, 2004, 02:12:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: boggy b
( the press shots of the early graphics wre both way above what the systems can realistically achieve),.
this holds tru for MS, but I don't recall seeing any GCN demos that misrepresented teh system's power . . . remember Nintendo even lowballed the polygon figures they gave in press releases.
Post by: KDR_11k on December 30, 2004, 10:16:01 PM
Heh, and I'd bet that's what the engineers tried to tell PR for at least a year now. They pretended the Cell would make a difference to us yet in the end it doesn't and that's why I think of this whole thing as a PR stunt. They could just have sat back, put the Cell in there and release the system but instead they decide to build up hype for the Cell in the PS3.
