Post by: notic on September 15, 2004, 04:13:48 PM
Post by: iamradioactive on September 15, 2004, 04:49:18 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 15, 2004, 05:58:52 PM
This gen Nintendo did two things I thought they would never do:
1. They released redundant sequels that failed to innovate or significantly add to the formula.
2. They released poor-to-average games that relied on an existing franchise to push an overwise unrelated game.
Mario Golf, 1080 Avalanche, Mario Party 4 & 5 and the upcoming Mario Tennis (judging by previews) fall into the first category. On the GBA I would put F-Zero GP Legend, Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green and even Metroid Zero Mission in this category. Now these are still good games but they didn't NEED to be released. In their heyday Nintendo only released games that from an artistic standpoint had to exist. They were constantly making completely new properties and their sequels were either huge evolutionary steps or completely original titles (Yoshi's Island). Except for maybe DKC3 it's pretty hard to think of an unnecessary SNES first party game.
Star Fox Adventures, Wario World, and all of the Cube Pokemon games fall into the second category. Those games are not nearly up to Nintendo's standards. Wario World featured virtually no elements of what made the GB Wario games fun. It seemed like an unrelated game with Wario thrown in for brand recognition. The Pokemon games on the Cube are all crap. Channel is barely even a game and Coloseum is a half-assed attempt at a 3D RPG with features from Stadium removed and put into Box. And Star Fox Adventures had Star Fox shoehorned into an original franchise. Sure the game probably would have been the lame collectathon no matter what but Nintendo forced an unrelated franchise into it to drive sales. That's unforgivable. They seem to be doing the same thing with the Cube Advance Wars which is not made by IS and seems to be completely unrelated to the GBA games. You could even consider FF: CC which they had made through a major deal with Square Enix as an unrelated game with "Final Fantasy" put in the title to drive sales.
Plus Nintendo in general has just released a lot of sequels. The Cube will have three Zelda games which is more than any other Nintendo console. And the amount of Metroid titles has DOUBLED since Metroid Prime came out and has two more games announced and on the way. Meanwhile Nintendo has released by my count only three original franchises on the Cube: Animal Crossing, Pikmin, and Eternal Darkness. AC actually is a port of an N64 game so in reality that's only TWO original Cube franchises released thus far (though Geist will be another one).
I want Nintendo to only concentrate on the BIG franchise titles like Mario, Zelda, and Metroid for a while and bust out some new content in place of yet another Mario Golf. They're getting stale and I'm getting tired of playing the same franchises over and over again.
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 15, 2004, 06:15:03 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 15, 2004, 06:19:53 PM
Love teh tennIs
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 15, 2004, 06:21:45 PM
Well it's kind of hard to beat perfection...
Post by: MaleficentOgre on September 15, 2004, 07:29:02 PM
I guess you don't want to see games like donkey kong jungle beat because its not one of nintendo's three major franchises. Where do you get off saying that games shouldn't be made because they're not popular. As far as all the rehashes goes, they are all brilliant games. Zero mission is more than any port I've seen, as well as Twin Snakes. These are games that, as odd as it seems, many people haven't palyed and otherwise wouldn't have played, and the reimagining of them makes it worth a buy.
You know what, no game needs to be released. Samus, Mario, and Link can all go the way of the dinosaur and the videogame world would live on. Sure it would hurt a lot, but it wouldn't die. You may think that mario zelda and metroid are the games that drive nintendo, but they're not. Its the wario ware, and the mario golf/kart/tennis/shuffleboard for all I care. Its the Donkey Kongas and the F-zeros. Nintendo is great not because of it only having three franchises to rely on, its great because it can take obscure franchises and turn them into great games that no one would ever think to exist. Sure mario party has gotten stale, but it has two new games coming out that'll turn the series in a new direction. Mario golf advance is the best golf game of the year. Kujuu is new to the "lets make a good game" scene, give them time, nintendo should be able to drive these guys in the right direction. Besides as you say it Advance wars is better off this way, so it won't get stale on the GBA. As far as the multiplying of metroid tittles have you seen a bad one yet? no, no you haven't because they're all great games.
Know what, stop buying games. From now on only buy origional games, games that haven't been thought of yet and don't have any tithes to any older game ever created. No tennis games, that ties into pong. No sports games period they're all the same. No First person shooterse, they can all be traced back to goldeneye as far as consoles go. No 2D fighting games, just capcom snk and sammy making those, can't be any good they're not origional. Smash brothers'll be sequel as well. No 3D fighting games, Sould Calibur three DOA ultimate Virtua fighter five, tekken five. No real time strategy games, all command and conquer. No shootemups, all galaga. No action adventure games, all zelda. No survival horror, all silent hill and resident evil clones. No light gun games, all copies of house of the dead and time crisis. No racing games, all have something to do with need for speed. No flying games, all revolve around flight simulators. No RPG's that's all final fantasy. No platformers, all mario. No party games, all mario. No kart racers, all mario. No mascot fighter, all mario. No, wait I'm running out of games. okay rhythm games are all DDR. No liscensed games, All X-men (the old arcade game). Noadventure games, all myst. Every spy game of the last three years is a splinter cell clone, and squad based games are all based on tom clancy novels. James bond made all the movie games good.
You get what I'm saying I could go on for a little longer but all games are rehashes of older games. Jungle beat is the most origional game around, that and lifeline *shudder* but because Jungle beat isn't traditionaly DK swinging around you won't like it. I guess you want mario to turn into megaman, whomst I love, but doesn't know when to go onto something new. Command mission is a great something new for him by the way. JI think your opinion has value. I just cannot agree with you. Just go away from the game world and start reading dime novels. because that's the only way you'll find true happiness.
Post by: Chongman on September 15, 2004, 07:29:06 PM
that's right.
and Ian Sane, I understand where you're coming from perfectly, but from being criticized that they don't bring out games fast enough to bringing out too rehashes I think ninty is a bit limited in what they can do. I totally agree with you 100%, they need more original titles (and they're coming). The sequals, most of them anyhow, weren't by any means bad just slight rehashes. Fun, great games, but still same same. The way I look at it though, they're still bringing innovation where they needed, and they haven't slacked off on the number either. Just because there's so many other games surrounding them doesn't mean ninty still doesn't innovate.
And btw, all three zelda games on the cube are completely different from each other and all other past iterations. At least in my opinion (though yeah, i can't judge the third one YET...)
Post by: Deguello on September 15, 2004, 07:37:30 PM
In F-Zero's and Metroid's case, Deg says they need to be released.
"You could even consider FF: CC which they had made through a major deal with Square Enix as an unrelated game with "Final Fantasy" put in the title to drive sales."
It's not like Square Enix didn't shoehorn an unrelated game into Final Fantasy before. That would be... Ahem...
Final Fantasy XI
Final Fantasy Adventure
Final Fantasy Legend (called something different in Japan)
"Wario World featured virtually no elements of what made the GB Wario games fun."
And F-Zero GX didn't feature Mode 7 Like F-Zero Maximum Velocity did. What's your point?
Edit: And you are right, the Cube has the most Zelda games. With the GB Player and that promo disc... Hell you can play ALL of them on the GC. And speaking of the GB Player, the GBA has more Zelda games than the rest of Nintendo's systems.
Also, again Custom Robo is being treated as if it does not exist. Maybe next time nintendo will release a popular unknown franchise, eh?
Post by: Urkel on September 15, 2004, 08:20:34 PM
His reasoning was --and I swear I'm not making this up-- "Sure, all the Playstation games suck, but at least it's not the same old stuff like Mario and Zelda."
I don't believe I had any response to that.
Anyway, I understand Ian not wanting so many sequels. However, I believe it's a misconception that Nintendo is becoming in any way less innovative.
What made Mario 64 so innovative was that it was the first 3D game to not suck. It showed everybody else how 3D games are supposed to be done. Mario Sunshine did not need to deviate significantly from the Mario 64 formula, seeing as how many considered Mario 64 to be the greatest game of all time. However, since it didn't significantly change from Mario 64, Sunshine got criticized by many as being an unimaginative sequel. My point is, Mario 64 didn't revolutionize the game industry because Nintendo all of a sudden decided to be innovative, Mario 64 revolutionized the industry simply because it happened to be first. The first non-sucking 3D game, that is.
I guess what I'm trying to say is... there's less out there to innovate. It's hard to envision a genre of game that hasn't been done already. At least, on the current consoles.
The two screens and touchscreen on DS are already providing completely original content. That's why I hope the Revolution truly is revolutionary, and will allow for games never before possible.
Post by: KDR_11k on September 15, 2004, 08:26:42 PM
Post by: Deguello on September 15, 2004, 08:56:55 PM
Post by: Dasmos on September 16, 2004, 01:17:59 AM
Post by: Gremio on September 16, 2004, 03:01:31 AM
QuoteOn the GCN, yes, that's what I'd like to see. I'd even be more than happy with the GBA versions coming to the US.
Originally posted by: Dasmos
well i'd like to see Earthbound make a return.
Only old Nintendo franchises I really care to see brought back to life are Kid Icarus and StarTropics. And while we're on the topic of old franchies, I say Enix should bring back Actraiser.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on September 16, 2004, 04:05:04 AM
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on September 16, 2004, 04:43:34 AM
Post by: notic on September 16, 2004, 05:36:49 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 16, 2004, 07:25:50 AM
Well I don't think a Zelda RPG would be totally unrelated to the regular Zelda games. I think there's enough simularities that like Four Swords Adventure it would have enough in common with the normal Zelda games to not look like a completely different game with a popular character shoe-horned in. Other people may think differently. My concern is more with overusing their franchises and redundant cookie cutter sequels.
Bill, perhaps unintentionally, summed up my point with "Well it's kind of hard to beat perfection..." If a game just works so well and there's no concievable way to significantly improve it and no directions to branch off in that would work then there's no need to make a sequel. Mario Tennis just f*cking nailed it on the first try. Super Smash Bros. Melee is so insanely awesome that I can't imagine another sequel unless it's online. Notice how Nintendo has not made a traditional Mario sidescroller since Super Mario World? Of course there's Yoshi's Island but that's very unique. Super Mario World is so perfect they probably can't think of way to continue that formula which is why Yoshi's Island and the 3D Mario games are so different.
Every game series at some point hits a creative wall where the current formula can't be improved on enough to make it fresh and it has to either branch off in a new direction, stop, or become a cookie cutter rehash. Look at Capcom's properties for tons of examples of this. Capcom almost always continues on with their franchises after they have hit the wall and it kills the game's selling power and popularity. Nintendo was always against this idea during their heyday and now they seem to be heading in that direction which I don't want to see. So I want them to cut back on the sequels and start making some brand new properties.
Post by: couchmonkey on September 16, 2004, 08:10:15 AM
1. Don't make a sequel without improving on the first. That doesn't even have to mean innovation, it just means making a better game. Super Smash Bros. Melee is a good example of this, the game is basically a super-deluxe version of the original. If as many new options, levels, and extras had gone into the GC incarnations of Wave Race, 1080 and Mario Kart, I think it would have made those games a lot better. The Mario Party series breaks this "rule" a lot.
2. Quit adding new Mario spin-offs. There are way too many of them, and it's getting worse. Why not create some "all-franchise" spin-offs, if they're necessary? I understand the appeal of putting popular characters into a new game: there's no reason to put Mario in a golf game, but without him, Mario Golf would probably have sold about 20,000 copies, given the Cube's sports-hating fanbase. Having said that, I'm sure a lot of consumers are getting the wrong impression that Mario is the only thing Nintendo has going for it, so ease up on the new Mario products.
Otherwise, I think these sequels, original or not, are important for selling consoles and for ensuring there is a good selection of games on the console. Of course, I want to see Nintendo making original games too, but I see nothing wrong with having a mix of both.
I think a Kid Icarus game in 3D would be very interesting. Heck, for that matter, I bet they could make a vastly improved 2D version. I think Punch-Out and Pilotwings could both benefit from sequels too....but Nintendo shouldn't force itself to make those games, it should only make them if someone has a great idea for them.
Post by: Chongman on September 16, 2004, 03:07:34 PM
I wait patienly for a punch-out sequal...and every day I die a little more as a result...
That would be a series that could easily be improved upon, and it's so amazing already...gah! WHY DO YOU TORMENT ME SO!! *goes off in the corner and cries*
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 16, 2004, 03:31:06 PM
Post by: Skyman_Welks on September 17, 2004, 12:09:25 PM
StarTropics
Earthbound
I suppose those are the only ones I would like to see make a comeback.
Post by: anubis6789 on September 17, 2004, 09:54:57 PM
I'm not even going to touch the whole sub-topic of "Nintendo releases to many/not enough rehashes."
Post by: Kaboth on September 19, 2004, 01:48:22 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 19, 2004, 02:16:14 PM
Post by: odifiend on September 19, 2004, 03:54:09 PM
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 19, 2004, 05:24:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kaboth
I wanna see a 2D Donkey Kong Country 4 more than anything else but perhaps Nintendo doesn't have the rights to using Country in the same sentence as Donkey Kong since Rare left.
Well that hasn't stopped RARE from releasing the DKC ports onto the GBA has it?
Post by: kennyb27 on September 19, 2004, 05:34:24 PM
QuoteI hope you know that Nintendo published the DKC ports on the GBA.
Well that hasn't stopped RARE from releasing the DKC ports onto the GBA has it?
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on September 19, 2004, 06:30:59 PM
On the Tepid Seat the Rare GBA team defended Donkey Konga, Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat and Donkey Kong: King of Swing.
Post by: Famicom on September 20, 2004, 02:23:34 PM
), I'd love to see another Punch Out. And how about that Sin and Punishment?
Post by: nemo_83 on September 21, 2004, 12:56:29 PM
Other than that I want to see nothing but new original material. Nintendo needs a new original AAA shooter in its deck of cards as well as a traditional in house RPG.
Post by: Perfect Cell on September 21, 2004, 06:50:15 PM
Punch Out, Kobe Bryant NBA, Ken Griffey MLB (Replace Ken with Ichirooooooooooo) The Cube lacks these games... ID like to see Nintendo pick up the slack.
Post by: nemo_83 on September 21, 2004, 07:47:56 PM
I heard that Nintendo and EA are working on Nintendo themed sports games posibly for next generation. Imagine NFL Mario Land.
Post by: notic on September 22, 2004, 12:03:59 PM
Post by: Perfect Cell on September 22, 2004, 01:57:06 PM
Oh and not horribly original or anything but I want a Smashbrothers 3 Nintendo vs the World for the Revolution. With Joe, and Sonic! Not an old franchise, but so what, i wanted to point that out that i want a cool new Smash Bros for the next Console.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on September 22, 2004, 04:39:52 PM
Post by: Perfect Cell on September 22, 2004, 06:27:23 PM
Would it be expensive? Yes.... but it would sell like Hot cakes .
Nintendo could probably make some deals to pull it off... Namco got Link for Soul Calibur..
Post by: MaleficentOgre on September 22, 2004, 06:38:52 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 22, 2004, 09:16:00 PM
IKARI WARIIORSZ!!
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 23, 2004, 12:56:23 AM
Post by: MaleficentOgre on September 23, 2004, 08:44:52 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on September 26, 2004, 10:31:35 AM
I think that could become the funnest game of all.
I dont understand why people still insist on Pilot Wings. They didn't make it on Cube. Nintendo knows it won't sell as well as other things they could put out. I don't see how the hardware could progress the game any. And most of all why waste time and money on Pilot Wings when there is a true demand for Kid Iccarus to come back in a big way like Metroid did.
With the revolutinary hardware there will be a reason to make original exclusive games on Revolution. You will be able to do things that the PS3 and Xenon systems could only hope to simulate. It is not just the matter of coming up with a solution for camera problems in 3d games as much as it is the ability to really grab a hold of that non existent polygon character as if it were a marionete and move it around on screen any way you want to, not just run and jump any more. We will finally have direct control of the arms of the characters if the rumors turn out true.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on September 26, 2004, 03:23:11 PM
Post by: Rancid Planet on September 26, 2004, 09:11:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83
I dont understand why people still insist on Pilot Wings.
For the same reason people insist on Kid Icarus...simple, true, love of franchise. A whole lot of people got turned on to the Pilotwings franchise back when Pilotwings 64 came out. Do to lack of software at the time, if you wanted to play something besides SM 64 this was pretty much your OTHER choice. People have been dying for a new installment ever since.
It's such an odd franchise when you think about it really. Have you ever tried explaining a Pilotwings game to someone who has never heard of it before. You'll get looked at like you have a horn growing out of your head while you're like "No I SWEAR it's FUN!"
Post by: nemo_83 on September 28, 2004, 08:38:51 AM
If they did a Pilot Wings I would get mad at them for wasting time. They could put that time and effort into Kid Iccarus instead. Pilot Wings wouldn't help Ninendo's image next generation as a key launch title. Then again if they kiddied up Kid I would die. The game would already have to much running against it with the word Kid in its title and being on a Nintendo console which gives it the imediate idiot's impression that it has to be for kids.
Post by: PaLaDiN on September 28, 2004, 08:44:33 AM
What do you mean, if? Factor 5 is already working on it.
