Post by: mouse_clicker on August 26, 2004, 12:42:32 PM
I’ve been noticing a startling trend lately, centered mainly on high school kids with tendrils teaching down into the middle school level. I am of course speaking of the counter-mainstream culture. They are becoming just as prevalent as mainstream themselves. These people buy out entire stores like Hot Topic and design their lives so they revolve around this singular notion of not being mainstream. Their entire persona, right down to the music they listen to and the clothes they wear, supposedly reflect this. They feel they are the underground, that they’re rebelling against the established top dogs, so to speak, when what they fail to realize is they’ve gone far beyond carving themselves a mere niche and have fashioned they’re own separate mainstream that parallels the one they claim to hate so much. What they’ve essentially done is created the same effect of the mainstream, that of mindless and blind following, on the opposite side of the spectrum- the mainstream and the counter-mainstream represent the two extremities of the same idea. Counter-mainstream has grown incredibly hypocritical- they claim to hate the mainstream and the factors and conditions that keep it functioning, yet they are replicating these very same factors and conditions with their own movement, but they’re so involved in their cardboard world that they fail to recognize this. These people may tell you they’re not automatons and think for themselves, but a quick glance at their surrounding culture screams just the opposite. Their problem is that they’re not concerned with individualism, they’ve concerned with anti -mainstream. They wear and do things for the sole reason it isn’t mainstream. So many of them have become so caught up in saying they’re unique that they forgot to actually be unique and now simply embody the same ideals as the "enemy".
What truly demonstrates the hypocrisy of this group is the fact that they state they have the freedom and right to act and dress however they want, yet criticize those who choose not to act and dress as they do. In essence, you can do whatever you want just as long as what you want to do is what we want to do and not what they want to do. It’s conformity through guilt more than anything else- they scare you into shaping yourself in their image by convincing you you’re unwittingly shaping yourself in the mainstream image. Why they should care what other people decide to do and how they choose to dress is beyond me. They seem to have missed the idea that it doesn’t matter if someone happens to wear something that’s mainstream, just as long as they’re not wearing it because it’s mainstream. The core of their beliefs has relevance, you could say, in the sense that it’s bred from the desire to make your own decisions based on what you want, not what you’re told to want. However, this core has become so perverted and corrupted that it has taken a life that is the complete polar opposite of its intention. I find wearing something because it’s anti-mainstream is just as bad as wearing something because it is mainstream. Concerning yourself with only an object’s status as “mainstream” or “anti-mainstream” is incredibly shallow, and completely missing the point. You should be concerning yourself with how you like it- it doesn’t matter if it is or isn’t mainstream because the only person you’re out to please is yourself, and if you truly like it then its status in popular culture shouldn’t make a bit of difference.
Following the mainstream or anti-mainstream is really about making decisions for others, modeling yourself in such a way to insure you’ll be accepted by a group of people. Yes, it’s important to make sure you do not find yourself being sucked into the mainstream, but to concern yourself so much with this that you get sucked into the anti-mainstream mainstream is no better, as both end up insulting your free will and ability to make your own decisions by doing all of this for you- they basically give you a design to follow, with severe chastisement guaranteed for disobedience. Similarly, you should not find yourself avoiding at all costs this anti-mainstream mainstream- wearing the same clothes or listening to the same music is not a crime just as long as you truly enjoy them and aren’t indulging in them for the sake of rebellion and “difference”. Rather what needs to be done is to consider only yourself and your thoughts and opinions when making your choices. Don’t let your decisions be swayed by whether or not they conform to the preconceived notions of “mainstream” or “anti-mainstream”. The counter-culture movement seems to have lost sight of this simple yet crucial mantra, and as such it has deformed them into the very people they hate. I’m not sure which I find more pathetic- the complete ignorance of and apathy towards one’s sheep-like following of the mainstream or the staunch denying of one’s patronage of its antecedent despite all signs to the contrary.
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 26, 2004, 12:52:37 PM
I agree that the only way to avoid being "mainstream," so to speak, is to just be yourself...Otherwise, you aren't following what YOU want, but what you THINK you need to "not be mainstream"...
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 26, 2004, 12:57:25 PM
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I agree that the only way to avoid being "mainstream," so to speak, is to just be yourself...Otherwise, you aren't following what YOU want, but what you THINK you need to "not be mainstream"...
My entire rant and about 1/20 the length- you have a habit of doing that, Bill.
This whole thing originated shortly after school today when I saw a girl decked out in pseudo-goth stuff from Hot Topic wearing a shirt that had the word "Preppies" in a circle with a cross through it. When I saw that I though to myself "How can you claim to hate preps when you're basically one yourself?" It just didn't make any sense.
Post by: Syl on August 26, 2004, 01:03:23 PM
So, therefore, by stereotyping the stereotypes that are trying to not be stereotypes, your conforming into a stereotype in yourself as the anti-stereotype stereotype.
POSER
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 26, 2004, 01:03:44 PM
The group I personally dislike nowadays(nothing personal!) are the "skating crowd"...You know, those that skateboard whether they are good or not, listen to heavy metal bands like Korn, etc...But I do guess it's really hard to really figure out just what "mainstream" is anymore... :\
Post by: Ian Sane on August 26, 2004, 01:22:51 PM
So basically MC is you're complaining about non-conformists that act like other non-conformists, correct?
I once wore my jacket inside out in public because I thought it looked neat. So where does that fit in the mainstream:non-mainstream arguement?
I also once wore a pencil case as a hat. To be truly non-mainstream you have to look like you have some mental illness like the guy at the bus stop who smacks himself in the head all day.
Post by: matt oz on August 26, 2004, 01:44:35 PM
"Hey, you're smart. Tell me if you agree with me. Because so many people try to be different, everyone who's different ends up being the same, right?"
I agreed, because it became so painfully obvious, even to this kid who wasn't all too bright about a lot of things.
Anyway, I was going to say something else, but I really can't put it into words right.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 26, 2004, 02:16:44 PM
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So basically MC is you're complaining about non-conformists that act like other non-conformists, correct?
Bill really put it best- I'm complaining about people that are so concerned with being non-conformists that they inevitably end up conforming anyway. Who cares if you happen to have a shirt that's considered mainstream, or vice versa, just as long as you bought the shirt because you liked it, not to make some kind of statement. You should really just be yourself and not worry if you're mainstream or anti-mainstream.
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"Hey, you're smart. Tell me if you agree with me. Because so many people try to be different, everyone who's different ends up being the same, right?"
I agreed, because it became so painfully obvious, even to this kid who wasn't all too bright about a lot of things.
I think I'd agree with that as well, at least with the concept. The trick is to not try and be different, just be yourself. It doesn't matter if you happen to behave a lot like other people, and it doesn't matter if you're completely different. You shouldn't actively trying to be different- the people that tend to annoy me the most are the ones that act wacky and weird just for the sake of it, not because that's actually the way they are.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 26, 2004, 02:25:01 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 26, 2004, 02:31:42 PM
Post by: DrZoidberg on August 26, 2004, 02:57:31 PM
Also, why all the hate? who cares what steam you're in we're all part of one giant ocean anyway
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 26, 2004, 03:00:55 PM
1) Students were either being themselves, or were underway with creating "new" selves.
2) People carried trends they (non)conformed to in their highschool days over into their college selves. Since trends differed from place to place, groups of people contained "regionally distinct" individuals.
College is full of crazies.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 26, 2004, 03:08:53 PM
Post by: Berny on August 26, 2004, 03:24:48 PM
ANYWAYS, I really don't care what stream my style fits into. I shop at the GAP and my friends have started to call me preppy for it, but I really don't think I am. I just shop there cause I like GAP's look. Besides, how many preps spend more than an hour on Nintendo forums?
But yeah, my friend needs to read this thread and maybe he'll wake up to the fact that by not conforming, he's conforming.
Post by: Syl on August 26, 2004, 03:32:05 PM
The GAP.
Post by: DrZoidberg on August 26, 2004, 03:32:47 PM
chyahhh
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 26, 2004, 03:38:55 PM
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heh, know who owns Hot Topic?
The GAP.
Yes, it is technically true that The GAP owns Hot Topic, but it is also worth mentioning that they merely bought out Hot Topic, they did not create it entirely.
Zoidberg: Please, if you're not going to add to the discussion don't post at all. There's a million other spam threads you can get your fill in, let's try to keep this one clean.
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on August 26, 2004, 06:33:17 PM
Post by: MattVDB on August 26, 2004, 07:10:41 PM
For example: While attempting high school, I could be found wearing clothes techincally considered "preppy." None of my friends would have called it that though, because they knew me. They knew that because the week before I had worn clothes looking like I was from and 80s band, and the week after I wore more gothic inspired clothing. I have yet to commit to one particular "stream," whatever it may be. The fusion of my clothing, bands I listen to, wall decorations, vocabulary (who uses the word "ort" in everyday speach? "lo"? "Hither"?), and games I play are unique to me; and I typically get a lot of respect for that.
Once again, another MC thread I completely agree with. Keep it up dude.
Post by: KDR_11k on August 27, 2004, 01:24:08 AM
*= It is doubted that Nietzsche wrote Der Wille zur Macht, his sister glued that together from various fragments.
Me? My buying habits are pretty random, I take what I like and reject what I don't like. That might put me in some hierarchy, but I'm not consciously thinking about the hierarchical effect (though I'm afraid of going too low on some hierarchies for fear of physical harm). My sister once told me "Hey, you know that Metallica isn't really underground?". No, I've been living behind the moon for the last 18 years and didn't notice the world's most popular band of the time [/sarcasm].
I don't like mainstream music, but that's because I hate the genres Rap and Techno (the latter only outside of games, it works as BG music, though) and I'm sick of Pop music after being forced by the radio to listen to identically sounding crap all day for years (it wasn't until I discovered MP3s that I knew music I like even exists).
Post by: SgtShiversBen on August 27, 2004, 06:31:09 AM
). My girlfriend at the time was this huge goth maniac, and me, some wierd guy who dresses how he likes. I love polo shirts and clothes that make me look nice. We all know that if you feel good, you do good, so I did. She would always call me a preppy and what not. Yet my whole ensemble was no more than 30$ (minus shoes). Yet she buys about 100$ worth of clothes from Hot Topic. Hypocrite? But this is besides the point. I was more aiming towards what Berny was commenting on. Some of my friends in high school were always bashing me that I was a Pokemon fanatic. I admit that I am. What can I say, I know what I like. I could imagine that if they had actually played the games and then bashed me, I would have gradually accepted being outnumbered. But NOOO, they were always all "It's go childish" or the common bash "They're evil!!" Yet they LOVED going retro with Nintendo back in the days. Hypocricy at it's best. The love Nintendo, but hate Nintendo creations. Ugh, I hate people sometimes. But oh well, I'm people too...I'm a sheep, we all are. Oh well, to each their own.BTW: Pokemon are not evil, they're nice little creatures who beat the s**t out of each other, not humans.
Post by: Plugabugz on August 27, 2004, 06:58:53 AM
It's much more avirex jackets and gangsta looking type clothing. Then, for those who are "camp" - I should point out that I'm entirely anti-homophobic, I thoroughly dislike people who hate against anyone who is "camp" - The type of clothing is just plainly camp or too small, or trousers that are too big-waisted with belts that dont do their job but to generally look good, and "low" shoes/trainers.
The goth look with generally baggy clothing, all black.
The skateboarders with their all-coloured too baggy, yet ripped-to-shreds clothing.
A majority of people are split into various different categories and wear and do what they want based upon the demographic they are in.
I can't say i've noticed a "counter-mainstream mainstream", but here it doesn't apply as such coz everyone is trying to fit to the demographics already established.
Me: I don't fit into any of them demographics
I'm a complete mix of everything. I dress sporty, speak/sound "formal" english, have jamaican parents and have a small collection of tighter clothing. I'm regarded as original because i reckon "common" is boring. Boring so much to the sense that too many people try to ahdere to it; for me to be noticed I sport a number of traits which can and cannot be regarded as common. My clothing style is common, my voice isn't.In one line: Be yourself
Apologies to nicking Bill's comments somewhat
Post by: KDR_11k on August 27, 2004, 09:24:41 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on August 27, 2004, 09:29:22 AM
Excellently said. The counter-mainstream crap has annoyed the hell out of me for so long. It's like someone playing badmitton and talking about how much tennis sucks.
I have four friends that, like me, are extremely individualistic, and naturally so. Murk is one of them, he's been around here some. It's hard to explain our friendship well, but our other friends often regard us almost as the epitome of friendship, and they all respect us quite a lot as individuals, too.
Some of our friends, those outside of the inner ring (not all of them, but some) are more inclined to some sort of conformity. Thanks to us, most of them see how ridiculous counter-conformity is, but they still shop in places like Hot Topic and buy retarded keychains and quote stuff in the most annoying manner possible. We discourage it, in a very subtle sort of way, and I think we've rubbed off on them positively.
I do what I want. I usually dress in jeans, or some other sort of casual pants, and I wear a t-shirt of moderate coolness. Or a silk button-up shirt with a cool design (like my Adventure Shirt). Sometimes I wear either a trench coat, a feminine blue jacket, a bright orange vest, or a black jacket (as in the kind of jacket that goes with a suit, but with casual dress). Other bits include two rings (one of which has an inside part that spins, the other has a wolf on it and comes from Alaska), a piece of pants I wear tied around my right wrist, my watch which is broken from the strap on one side (bad luck with watches), sunglasses, gloves, and sometimes a variety of hats or wigs. My friends and I used to go around in costume a bunch, too, but the aforementioned things are all usual for me.
I won't even go into the more mental or psychological parts of it, cuz then it gets crazy (crazy with a k).
It's not like I refuse to conform to anything. I just don't, really.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 27, 2004, 01:23:01 PM
Post by: joeamis on August 27, 2004, 04:56:02 PM
Post by: KnowsNothing on August 27, 2004, 06:12:36 PM
But I've noticed the counter-mainstream mainstream thing alot, too. I actualyl have alot to say about this subject, but I'm sure that in this thread it has been mentioned before. And it's probably been put into more complex sentances with fancy 2 dollar words, too.
The best thing you can do is to be yourself. If you get caught up with being mainstream to become popular, and then something like the counter-mainstream mainstream thing comes up you'll be going back and forth between styles and personalities, and none of that will be really you. So yeah, what Bill said.
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The group I personally dislike nowadays(nothing personal!) are the "skating crowd"...You know, those that skateboard whether they are good or not, listen to heavy metal bands like Korn, etc.[/Q}
Heh, people used to think I was a skater like that becasue I always wore baggy pants and a sweatshirt I wore a sweatshirt almost everyday last year. During shcool, there were probably only 10 days where I didn't wear one :cool:. Anyway, one thing that bothered me about this quote is this:Quote
You know, those that skateboard whether they are good or not..
Arent we all bad at knew things at first? Practice makes perfect.
Everything about this post sums up my entire contribution to PGC.
Post by: Bill Aurion on August 27, 2004, 06:49:05 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on August 27, 2004, 07:47:31 PM
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I do want to point out that it doesn't matter if you do shop at places like Hot Topic, it doesn't mean you're part of the anti-mainstream mainstream, just so long as you're buying their products because you like them, not because you're not trying to protest the system, or whatever. I personally have quite a few shirts from Hot Topic, mainly videogame and band t-shirts
I think murk put it well, actually.
Don't get anything from Hot Topic unless you're stealing it.
And really, we do occasionally buy things from there (not sure if I ever had, but I have seen a few things that interested me), but my one friend insists upon it. He did again, just tonight. We were like EWW.
That's when murk said that.
Post by: joeamis on August 27, 2004, 07:49:44 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 27, 2004, 08:08:13 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on August 27, 2004, 08:39:55 PM
Nintendo shirts are cool, though I'd probably never own one for reasons I can't really explain. At least not any of the ones I've seen.
Let's say I have pride in liking Nintendo, and none of the t-shirts do them justice. That's not quite it, but it's an aspect thereof.
And Hot Topic is also severely overpriced. Or it may just be me that thinks t-shirts for more than fifteen dollars is load of crap, cuz they seem to be like that everywhere.
But the DVD of Invader Zim, which I almost bought, was five dollars more than at Wal-mart.
Therefore, the steal rather than borrow method.
Or get the merchandise elsewhere, probably even for cheaper.
Got nothing against Hot Topic, I've just got something against the combination of Hot Topic and myself for some reason
Post by: Mario on August 28, 2004, 12:02:46 AM
I think most people who are sheep subconciously realise it, but they don't do anything to get out of it because they have nowhere else to go and nothing else to fit in with, it takes people time to find out who they are, this is just part of the process... or something.
Post by: KDR_11k on August 28, 2004, 12:07:55 AM
There are a few products I refuse to buy on the basis of the company that made it. The XBox would be one of those (Microsoft hates our freedoms), as are RIAA and MPAA (also a bunch of freedom hating capitalists). That's not to show something to others, that's merely in the hope that these companies suffer if enough people do that.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 28, 2004, 06:35:07 AM
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The XBox would be one of those (Microsoft hates our freedoms), as are RIAA and MPAA (also a bunch of freedom hating capitalists).
Neh, I never let political views keep me from buying products- I don't buy an XBox because it doesn't have enough games I'm interested in to warrant a purchase. I don't buy a lot of CD's because most aren't any good and the ones that are are generally too expensive. I'm not sure what your beef is with the MPAA is, though.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on August 28, 2004, 06:46:50 AM
Really though, hyper anti-mainstreamers are morons. I HATE IT JUST BECAUSE IT'S ON TV. =\
Post by: KDR_11k on August 28, 2004, 07:47:28 AM
mouse: Well, for one thing we have to thank the MPAA for things like the DMCA and copycat legislation in other countries.
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 28, 2004, 08:03:24 AM
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mouse: Well, for one thing we have to thank the MPAA for things like the DMCA and copycat legislation in other countries.
Ah yes, I forgot about that, very good point. It's still not going to stop me from going to the movie theater or buying tons of movies, though- in my world of geekiness, movies play second fiddle only to LotR and videogames.
Seriously, though, I hope the feeling you get from protesting these groups is greater than the enjoyment you would get from their products. I respect the message you're trying to get across, but I personally don't let that keep me from indulging in their products. At least not that alone.
Post by: Berny on August 28, 2004, 02:04:36 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 28, 2004, 03:58:04 PM
::EDIT:: I'm looking through Hot Topic's annual report now, and it appears that THEY own another company, Torrid, a store selling plus sized clothes for women. In fact, it says in their annual report that they compete with The GAP, as well as other stores, such as American Eagle, Abercrombie & Fitch, Aeropostale, etc:
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The Company competes with other retailers for vendors, customers,
suitable retail locations and qualified associates. Hot Topic currently competes
with street alternative and vintage clothing stores located primarily in
metropolitan areas and with other mall-based teenage-focused retailers such as
Abercrombie & Fitch, Aeropostale, American Eagle Outfitters, Anchor Blue
(Millers Outpost), Charlotte Russe Inc., Claire's Stores, Inc., Forever 21, Old
Navy (a division of Gap Inc.), Pacific Sunwear of California, Inc., Spencer
Gifts, Inc., The Buckle, The Wet Seal, Inc., Urban Outfitters, Inc.; and, to a
lesser extent, with music stores.
If anyone would like to see this information themselves, here is their Investor Relations site.
In any case, I know how this rumor started- the current president of Hot Topic, inc., Gerald cook, once held a management position at The GAP. I guess people misconstrued this information to mean The GAP owns Hot Topic, which isn't true.
Post by: Hostile Creation on August 28, 2004, 07:53:21 PM
Post by: ThePerm on August 28, 2004, 09:37:41 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on August 28, 2004, 11:18:59 PM
Post by: mouse_clicker on August 29, 2004, 04:39:51 AM
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Mouse: But then Microsoft owns Apple, so...
Microsoft owns shares in Apple but they don't own Apple completely. Apple also makes many products that transcend their competed area with Microsoft.
