Topic: Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (WiiWare)

[Caterkiller]

I meant to get it yesterday but my day was so long, even now I'm back at work for another 12+ hour day, so maybe tomorrow.

[that Baby guy]

I've picked it up, I'll be talking about it today when I record my podcast, and reviewing it somewhere down the week, perhaps even today, depending on what my schedule is like.  It's been a busy, busy few weeks, and things have calmed down, but I have a review backlog, which makes finding how Sonic 4 Episode 1 fits in a little difficult.

To sum it up, it's definitely the shortest Sonic game I've ever played.  Essentially, there's four worlds, three acts, a boss for each world, a little more, and the special stages.

Aside from that, I'd describe it as a step backwards for Sonic, in a few senses.  It does succeed in reviving a more classic style of gameplay, but at the same time, it lacks so many of the improvements found in even Sonic 2, let alone Sonic 3 and Knuckles.  Beyond that, stage design feels solid in most cases, and although it may be nostalgia talking, while these new stages don't have the same amount of character as prior Sonic stages reached, they do convey some of the same feelings.  The homing attack is a miss for me.  Rather than even have it, we'd be better off with Sonic capable of a light air-dash-style boost, like how the homing attack works when there's no target around.  In those cases, it's a very light boost of forward momentum that feels natural to someone like me, who enjoyed the shield power-ups in Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

I don't want to get into too much more detail, so I'll be brief and say that I did feel a bit cheapened by the fact that stage design was too heavily influenced by Sonic and Sonic 2 stages, as was boss design.  Too much of a rehash for me.  That's it for now, if I say much more, I'd practically be writing my review, which I'm not quite ready for.

[NWR_pap64]

I've picked it up, I'll be talking about it today when I record my podcast, and reviewing it somewhere down the week, perhaps even today, depending on what my schedule is like.  It's been a busy, busy few weeks, and things have calmed down, but I have a review backlog, which makes finding how Sonic 4 Episode 1 fits in a little difficult.

To sum it up, it's definitely the shortest Sonic game I've ever played.  Essentially, there's four worlds, three acts, a boss for each world, a little more, and the special stages.

Aside from that, I'd describe it as a step backwards for Sonic, in a few senses.  It does succeed in reviving a more classic style of gameplay, but at the same time, it lacks so many of the improvements found in even Sonic 2, let alone Sonic 3 and Knuckles.  Beyond that, stage design feels solid in most cases, and although it may be nostalgia talking, while these new stages don't have the same amount of character as prior Sonic stages reached, they do convey some of the same feelings.  The homing attack is a miss for me.  Rather than even have it, we'd be better off with Sonic capable of a light air-dash-style boost, like how the homing attack works when there's no target around.  In those cases, it's a very light boost of forward momentum that feels natural to someone like me, who enjoyed the shield power-ups in Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

I don't want to get into too much more detail, so I'll be brief and say that I did feel a bit cheapened by the fact that stage design was too heavily influenced by Sonic and Sonic 2 stages, as was boss design.  Too much of a rehash for me.  That's it for now, if I say much more, I'd practically be writing my review, which I'm not quite ready for.

I agree and disagree with some of these things. I do agree that the game is very short, and I blame this on the episodic nature.

I disagree about it being a step backwards. Yeah, at first it does look like it is going backwards rather than going forward, but think about this for a second. The problem with recent Sonic games is that Sega has tried too hard to give Sonic new skills, abilities and gimmicks. With Sonic being basic outside of his dash, speed and homing attacks it allows the developers to work on the basic gameplay and thus be more polished.

I mentioned before that the speed was toned down. I can see how some fans can be annoyed by thus, but again, it all comes back to working with the basics. The problem in some Sonic games was that Sonic was TOO fast, often leading you to lose control of him and leading to a death (which is what happens in Sonic 06). Sonic 4 allows for a more realistic feel with the speed slowly building up, this allows for tighter controls, and in fear of being redundant, with Sega failing and re-inventing the franchise they needed to focus on basics.

I really like the level design, especially the Casino zones. There are some very annoying levels, but I love them overall.

In the end, if you were expecting to be a grand revival of Sonic right off the bat, then you WILL be disappointed. I realize that Sega is trying to do that, and I rather they do it slowly rather than going all wild and thus create more issues than what they wanted to avoid in the first place. Baby steps, and hopefully Sonic Episode 2 should be improvements.

[that Baby guy]

By a step backwards, I mean that it even steps back from the classic games, not the newer games.  For instance, the constant "enemy ladders," I'd call them, where, to reach a peak, one must homing attack four times in a row, bouncing upward and losing all momentum Sonic currently has in the progress.  That's bad stage design built upon a mechanic in the game.  While there are places that have equally annoying and slowing processes in other classic Sonic titles, I can't recall any that exist so prominently and repeatedly throughout any other game.

That's a step backward, as far as classic Sonic goes.  They implemented a new ability, which has potential to work well, then created a counter-intuitive use for it.  Additional problems, like an early example, the swinging vines, also throw off momentum and control, and don't work well.  Again, these are steps in reverse from even the original Sonic the Hedgehog.

Understand, that I had two points when I mentioned the step backward in my previous post.  The good point was that it did exactly what you said.  It does revive classic Sonic gameplay.  That's a good step backward.  The bad?  What I pointed out above, in this post:  There's many elements brought into the game that are counter-intuitive, require no real platforming skills, and absolutely force players to lose any momentum carried.  The former step back is a good one, the latter, a bad one.

[NWR_pap64]

By a step backwards, I mean that it even steps back from the classic games, not the newer games.  For instance, the constant "enemy ladders," I'd call them, where, to reach a peak, one must homing attack four times in a row, bouncing upward and losing all momentum Sonic currently has in the progress.  That's bad stage design built upon a mechanic in the game.  While there are places that have equally annoying and slowing processes in other classic Sonic titles, I can't recall any that exist so prominently and repeatedly throughout any other game.

That's a step backward, as far as classic Sonic goes.  They implemented a new ability, which has potential to work well, then created a counter-intuitive use for it.  Additional problems, like an early example, the swinging vines, also throw off momentum and control, and don't work well.  Again, these are steps in reverse from even the original Sonic the Hedgehog.

Understand, that I had two points when I mentioned the step backward in my previous post.  The good point was that it did exactly what you said.  It does revive classic Sonic gameplay.  That's a good step backward.  The bad?  What I pointed out above, in this post:  There's many elements brought into the game that are counter-intuitive, require no real platforming skills, and absolutely force players to lose any momentum carried.  The former step back is a good one, the latter, a bad one.

Actually, in my first game time I did encounter these problems you are talking. But in my second playthrough I managed to go through them without any feeling of speed being lost in the process.

I noticed that once you get a good feel of the level you can run through the stage without losing speed. I think the most annoying stage is the one in the ruins with all the canons. THAT definitely slowed down the game, for me at least.

The way I see it, if you try and compare it to the Genesis games, then yeah, Sonic 4 is disappointing. I understand that Sega is BANKING on nostalgia for this game to be successful, but I see it as its own game, and its good. Very good. Maybe I just had my expectations low enough that the game delivered despite some flaws.

[Ian Sane]

The way I see it, if you try and compare it to the Genesis games, then yeah, Sonic 4 is disappointing. I understand that Sega is BANKING on nostalgia for this game to be successful, but I see it as its own game, and its good. Very good. Maybe I just had my expectations low enough that the game delivered despite some flaws.

I think that is cutting a game way too much slack.  It's perfectly reasonable for an entry in an ongoing series to be compared with other entries.  The most generic cookie-cutter unexceptional game can look good in a vacuum.  But when you have perspective you can't just turn it off.  I cannot help but compare any new videogame I play to ones I have played before.
 
I think Sonic the Hedgehog 4 should be like if Sega made a Sonic 4 as a Saturn launch title.  Think of what a 2D Sonic would be like released at that time period with Sonic's momentum being at its strongest.  Would this fly or would it be considered a big disappointment?  I think it should hold up to those standards and not be given a free pass if it doesn't.
 
I haven't played the game but from the opinions expressed here it gives me a NSMB vibe.  The original DS NSMB I didn't like very much because to me it just didn't hold up to the classic Mario games.  It felt too much like a rehash of the first game that relied on nostalgia and the assumption that I had not played the original games in a while and would get a thrill out of the novelty of playing that old style gameplay again.  The problem was I had played the old titles recently and knew that if NSMB was released on the SNES in 1996 it would have been considered a disappointment.  NSMB Wii however succeeded because I felt it worked in the context of the whole series.  It felt like where one would naturally go if the 2D series had continued with no breaks.  It wasn't a nostalgia gimmick game, it was the real deal.
 
I would want them to do the same with Sonic.  I don't want a "well this is the best Sonic in years".  I want "this is one of the best Sonic games PERIOD".  I want something that can hold a candle to the Genesis games.  This isn't a charity.  I don't give out awards for effort or "nice try".  I know what Sonic is capable of and I'm not interested in less than that.

[Mop it up]

Does this game have other characters besides Sonic? Does it have any sort of 2-player mode?

[Kytim89]

I am interested in this game, Retro City Rampage and Cave Story and I will most likely buy the for Christmas.
 
A Nocturnus level from Sonic Chronicles would be nice to play through.

[Morari]

I'll wait until all of the episodes are released as a single product, thank you.

Why can't I play as Tails or Knuckles? Why doesn't the game feature all of the neat bubble power-ups from Sonic 3? The game sounds as if it might just be a little too retro.

[Spak-Spang]

I sounds to me that they are purposely saving content for later episodes.  When they announced that this game was episodic it made me say WHY? 

There is no reason for a retro 2D game to be episodic.  Release the game fully finished please.  As it is I agree.  I will wait until there is a full version of the game.  Probably ported to the 3DS or something. 

[Mop it up]

Count me into the club of waiting for an episodic compilation. $15 per episode is too much (I know there's no guarantee the following episodes will be, but it seems likely).

[that Baby guy]

My review made it up.  Regardless, I pretty much conclude to avoid the game unless you've exhausted the classic Sonic games.  It does fit in with them, but it's just a level under any of them, and a bit too short.  It's practically possible for anyone with any potential to play Sonic 4: Episode 1 to buy any (or all) for a much lower price, and they're all better values for you time.

[Dasmos]

Oh man, that level with the cannons in the casino has to be the most boringly frustrating level in a Sonic game yet.

[Caterkiller]

You know I actually like that connon portion. Right now it doesn't feel so much like a SaK as it does a Sonic the Hedgehog part 1, I get a real New Super Mario Bros Wii/Super Mario Bros vibe from it. But I am enjoying the game. I remember playing at E3 and it was a graphical mess, but on my tv it looks pretty darn nice.

I like the homing attack in that it doesn't give Sonic and insane mid air dash if he isn't locked on, and I am digging vines and such. I only played through about half the game so far, but I like it. That Guy and I are in different boats I suppose, the things he hates I like. But you know I liked allot of Sonic games in the begining and by the time I was done out right hated them. So maybe I will wait just a bit longer.

I just can't get over how non Sonic Rush the game is! There are many moments when I stop and gotta jump here and there, or I see something really high up and far away and try to spin dash and long jump across some casm to reach a point of interest. Havn't did that kind of stuff since the old days and it feels good.  When I grab vines I am reminded of Sonic 2 and 3's vines/ropes and only this time they swing like Mario using momentum to jump farther, what can I say? I think it works!

As for the stuff that really doesn't matter, Ricky, Flicky, Pecky, Rocky, Tocky, Wocky, and god knows who else are bouncing around after I smash a robot and I love to see that. Sonic doesn't say word, and though I do miss transitions from one zone to the next I'm sure they will be included in future episodes.

I think it's a great start so far, and I hope Tails and Knuckles will join in the following episodes for 2 player co-op play.

[Art_de_Cat]

!5 dollars seems a bit much to charge for an episodic game. 10 Bucks I would not have minded as much.

[that Baby guy]

You know I actually like that connon portion. Right now it doesn't feel so much like a SaK as it does a Sonic the Hedgehog part 1, I get a real New Super Mario Bros Wii/Super Mario Bros vibe from it. But I am enjoying the game. I remember playing at E3 and it was a graphical mess, but on my tv it looks pretty darn nice.

I like the homing attack in that it doesn't give Sonic and insane mid air dash if he isn't locked on, and I am digging vines and such. I only played through about half the game so far, but I like it. That Guy and I are in different boats I suppose, the things he hates I like. But you know I liked allot of Sonic games in the begining and by the time I was done out right hated them. So maybe I will wait just a bit longer.

I just can't get over how non Sonic Rush the game is! There are many moments when I stop and gotta jump here and there, or I see something really high up and far away and try to spin dash and long jump across some casm to reach a point of interest. Havn't did that kind of stuff since the old days and it feels good.  When I grab vines I am reminded of Sonic 2 and 3's vines/ropes and only this time they swing like Mario using momentum to jump farther, what can I say? I think it works!

As for the stuff that really doesn't matter, Ricky, Flicky, Pecky, Rocky, Tocky, Wocky, and god knows who else are bouncing around after I smash a robot and I love to see that. Sonic doesn't say word, and though I do miss transitions from one zone to the next I'm sure they will be included in future episodes.

I think it's a great start so far, and I hope Tails and Knuckles will join in the following episodes for 2 player co-op play.

I don't think I disagree as much as you think.
It's a fun game, and from me, 3 stars is a pretty good rating, honestly.  The other Sonic games are just such better options and set a higher standard.  I also let my perspective on Sonic and Knuckles influence my review.  Essentially, aside from lock-on and introducing playable Knuckles, the game seemed to be a little bit of the Black Sheep of the classic games.  I view it as a fun, 3.5 star game, worthy of your time if you like Sonic games, but unworthy unless you've played the others first.  Without the lock-on properties, it would've been a 3 star game.  Sonic 4: Episode 1, is essentially that, thought I still think I favor stand-alone Sonic and Knuckles a bit better, the margin isn't great enough to worry about in any meaningful way, when lock-on gaming isn't included.

[Spak-Spang]

Wow, so the common opinion is that Sonic 4 is good, but not as good as the original series. 

I wonder, I actually think the original Sonic games are flawed and some of the worst platforming games of the older generation.  I think Sonic became popular as the only alternative to Mario, but because the games were that good.  So to me some of the additions people do not like about this Sonic 4 I am interested in.  Slower speed, homing attack and such...

But, if the level design is not as great as the originals...then I am definitely out.  Sonic 3 is probably the only Sonic game I would revisit...maybe add Sonic & Knuckles to that...so I could get 2 games for the price of part of a game right now...

[NWR_insanolord]

Actually, if you have a 360, you can get Sonic 2, Sonic 3, and Sonic and Knuckles, each $5 on XBLA, for the price of this game.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

For its astonishing premium price point, I'll pass on Sonic 4. It's shorter than any game in the original trilogy, which can be bought for less money. This seems like a title that has no place being released episodically - episodic content should be reserved for the point-&-clicks. In fact, it comes across as really cynical, how Sega is intentionally holding back like this.

Honestly, I'm way more interested in Sonic Colours; cautiously so, but at least that game appears to be doing something quite different, and  it probably has Sonic 4 trumped on the value card.

[Ian Sane]

I think frankly that episodic content is a big rip-off scam to begin with.  I'll pay for a game once I expect the entire fucking game, thank you very much.  It just seems like a way to squeeze extra purchases out of gamers without really providing any benefits to the customer.  What do you as a gamer get out of episodic content?  So you have to pay for each piece of the game and wait for them to be released over a period of time.  What is the appeal in that?
 

 I actually think the original Sonic games are flawed and some of the worst platforming games of the older generation.

I think Sonic is certainly not on par with Mario but there are WAY too many horrible platforming games from that time period for Sonic to be one of the worst.  Bubsy, Aero the Acro-bat, Awesome Possum and Mr. Nutz are all much worse.  There was a time where EVERY company made platformers and tried to have some mascot character.  It was like the default videogame design.  The classic Sonic games would have to be outright garbage to be considered among the worst platformers of the time.

[alegoicoe]

i have tried to play it a couples of times, but i hate the physics of the game and the messy level design, i know this is huge for sega fans, maybe sonic its not made for me. on the plus side it looks really nice.

[Spak-Spang]

Ian:  Going to your NSMB comment.  The DS game was strange.  It tried to feel like the original series, and it was fun to play through the first time, but the game felt off to me.  Part of it was definitely the graphics, but there was something more...it didn't feel special or fun.

Now, NSMB Wii is completely different.  The game feels amazing.  The graphics are somewhat of a let down, but much more acceptable and beautiful.  But, when you have multiple player playing at the same time the game turns into pure magic and is amazing.  NSMB Wii is what I expect from titles trying to revive the feeling of old games and give a new experience.  It truly is awesome. 

Sonic 4 sounds like it is a good game, which we should all be thankful for and be willing to play...but for the price it isn't enough to warrant buying...yet.  If Sega had used episodic content to give us full games that linked together and had different gameplay elements to differentiate each experience then I could understand.  If Sonic 4 was a full 6-8 levels with 3 Acts and was just Sonic.  Then Sonic 4 Episode 2 was 4-6 levels more and added 2 players with Tails to all the levels.  I could see this working.

[Caterkiller]

The true Sonic fans(some goons who think they know everything about game design from some lame sonic specific site) seem to hate it! You know it's a good game! For being 1/2 or most likely 1/3 of the game I think it is pretty nice.

[Mop it up]

Actually, if you have a 360, you can get Sonic 2, Sonic 3, and Sonic and Knuckles, each $5 on XBLA, for the price of this game.

This game costs more than what I paid for the Sonic Mega Collection a couple years back. Even if Sonic 4 were the best Sonic game yet, I'd still have difficulty justifying the price.

Knowing how much Sega likes to re-release Sonic games, it seems probable that an episodic compilation will be released at some point. I'd say it's more a matter of when, and that is largely dependent on when the next episodes get released. It could be a while.

[Caterkiller]

I beat Episode 1 in its entirety and I had a good time. I loved the special stages, thats what actually took me so long and I enjoyed the last boss. They give you a tiny teaser of whats to come in part 2 at the end which was nice. Along with a rocket that was built by Tails, I can only assume he will be playable next time around, these 2 things have me anticipating the next game.

I really feel like this is to sonic what New Super Mario Bros DS was to Mario. I shame myself in that I could not bring myself to get all the golden coins as I was left a bit unsatisfied. But Sonic 4 gave me a satisfied feeling at 100% which I have not felt for a sonic game since SA2. But it in no way gives me that awesome feeling that NSMBW did. Hopefully if multiplayer is included in the next episodes it can be implimented well, with a camera that zooms in and out and some kind of auto tether on Tails to keep him near if need be.