Author Topic: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'  (Read 217444 times)

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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1025 on: February 27, 2010, 12:44:37 PM »
Not that orchestrated music is bad, it isn't, it's just that there's nothing inherently superior about it, and yet many people seem to act as if there was.  I get the feeling it's more mindless "ooh, more expensive == better" than actual taste....

This is pretty much it.  IGN's "lazy" nsmb article talked quite a bit about orchestrated music.  If you asked me what games use it and what game don't I would have no idea.  They really care about how much money is spent on the game, not how good it actually is.

Late addition but some reviews directly talk about the production price or actually say that it should be cheaper because of the price of making it.  How many times do you hear the word "production values" in reviews.  It means money spent on the product.  when calling something bad I have read the word "cheap" many times.  It doesn't actually tell me what the real problem is (graphics aren't good, bad artstyle glitches, gameplay needs worked on?).
I understand wanting games as cheap as possible but the money spent to make it is not a direct correlation to how good it is or how badly I want it.  Part of the problem is with the game prices reaching $60 on the hd system because "hd is too expensive."  Reviewers expect money spent and technology to be the deciding factors in price, not quality.
Slumdog Millionaire cost a hell of a lot less money to make than The Dark Knight and you didn't see people complaining that the movie tickets were the same price or that the regular dvds were the same price.  You also don't hear critics knock them for it.  That is because quality is what matters.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 12:34:18 AM by SixthAngel »

Offline Mop it up

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1026 on: February 28, 2010, 02:44:30 PM »
I don't know if I could tell the difference between orchestrated music and synthesized music. I've heard Super Smash Brothers Melee has a few orchestrated music tracks, but every piece in that game sounds great to me so I don't know which ones are orchestrated. Sound quality makes a much bigger difference than composition type; MP3 files sound way worse than .wav files.

As for the graphics, those can affect one's mood when playing the game so it is always nice to have quality graphics. However, I feel style matters much more than technical quality. In the case of New Super Mario Brothers Wii, the glossy coat makes that game look sterile and a bit lifeless. I'd much prefer if it had a style more like Wario Land Shake It!, that game looks much better and isn't even in 3D like NSMBWii.

Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1027 on: February 28, 2010, 03:07:38 PM »
As for the graphics, those can affect one's mood when playing the game so it is always nice to have quality graphics. However, I feel style matters much more than technical quality. In the case of New Super Mario Brothers Wii, the glossy coat makes that game look sterile and a bit lifeless. I'd much prefer if it had a style more like Wario Land Shake It!, that game looks much better and isn't even in 3D like NSMBWii.

I can only imagine how good NSMBW would have looked if they used clay.  I'd pay $200 for that game.
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Offline Caterkiller

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1028 on: February 28, 2010, 03:13:44 PM »

Quote

I can only imagine how good NSMBW would have looked if they used clay.  I'd pay $200 for that game.

Maybe one day we will get that for Pikmin.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1029 on: February 28, 2010, 03:44:06 PM »
you know, i wouldn't doubt many Nintendo employee's actually play an instrument. It might be just easier to just gather up all their employees that do and have them play
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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1030 on: March 01, 2010, 08:04:30 AM »
you know, i wouldn't doubt many Nintendo employee's actually play an instrument. It might be just easier to just gather up all their employees that do and have them play

They could have Miyamoto do the whole thing himself! Who wouldn't love an all-banjo soundtrack?
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1031 on: March 01, 2010, 08:11:48 AM »
I love how some people jump to the conclusion that the new Mario game needed an orchestral soundtrack.  I love orchestral music, but NSMBW was a game that lived and died by how it tried to appeal to nostalgia and I think orchestral music would have clashed badly with that.  The orchestral music just naturally complements the feel of galactic adventure that Super Mario Galaxy was going for, so it got the nod (as did its sequel).  Hopefully, Zelda Wii also gets an orchestral soundtrack, for the same reasons.  It's just not practical or appropriate to have a big budget soundtrack for every game, especially a 2D Mario game.
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1032 on: March 01, 2010, 09:50:21 AM »
I don't know how anyone can listen to the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack and not immediately understand how that game does music better than just about any Nintendo game in decades.  It's fantastic from start to finish, partly because of the compositions, but also partly because the orchestration and performances bring it to life in ways unlike anything else on Wii.   Sure, not all games need it, but if Nintendo put the emphasis in music in other games like they did with Galaxy, I think only good things could come from that.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 11:15:53 AM by NWR_DrewMG »
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1033 on: March 01, 2010, 10:12:01 AM »
I think its all about context. While Mario Galaxy's orchestrated soundtrack was superb, I think most games could do without one; just like how most games could do without proper VA. A game like Zelda Wii would be better with an orchestra, but not with VA (at least in my opinion).
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1034 on: March 01, 2010, 01:12:20 PM »
2D Mario just doesn't mesh with an orchestra. That's like wearing an all denim outfit to your college graduation. 2D Mario needs bleeps and bloops with short catchy melodies. Super Mario World executed this perfectly.
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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1035 on: March 01, 2010, 01:27:31 PM »
Most of Nintendo's franchises wouldn't really benefit from orchestrated music. Galaxy does. Zelda certainly would. Maybe Fire Emblem would, and I suppose it would be fun in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way to use it in Star Fox. Apart from that, it doesn't come close to justifying the immense costs involved.
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Offline Invincible Donkey Kong

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1036 on: March 01, 2010, 04:54:21 PM »
Most of Nintendo's franchises wouldn't really benefit from orchestrated music. Galaxy does. Zelda certainly would. Maybe Fire Emblem would, and I suppose it would be fun in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way to use it in Star Fox. Apart from that, it doesn't come close to justifying the immense costs involved.

Again, people never really consider the ramifications of orchestrated music.  That is, as far as I know there has yet to be a way to make it dynamically flow with the action.  Take for example a game like Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat, in which the music is constantly shifting to what is happening on screen.  You don't see this in Super Mario Galaxy, and I personally see the soundtrack as compositely inferior even though the music and composition itself is fantastic.  It would be even more glaringly obvious in our next console Zelda, as this dynamic change has been extensively used in both The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess (moving from the field, to fighting an enemy, to the strikes made during combat, etc).  So for the sake of an engaging experience, I personally stand against orchestrated music, or at least for it to be kept to the bare minimum for cinematic scenes.  But only because I'm nice like that.  :reggie:
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1037 on: March 01, 2010, 05:50:21 PM »
Once again I need to remind everyone, the only reason Galaxy had orchestrated music is because it's composer, Mahito Yokota wanted it.  It's the composer of the games who decide what kind of music they wanted and most Nintendo composers are fine with MIDI.

So I'm going to outright say it right now since this is what this orchestra argument always leads to, unless Yokata is working on Zelda Wii's soundtrack, it's going to be MIDI.  And since Yokata is Tokyo EAD's head composer, and Zelda Wii is being made by EAD 3, who's head composer is TĹŤru Minegishi, I don't think Yokata's going to be involved.

So I suggest people wanting Zelda Wii to have orchestrated music take out all your rage right now so E3 won't be a big shock.
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Offline Peachylala

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1038 on: March 01, 2010, 07:00:49 PM »
Didn't Tohru Minegishi use a MIDI orchestra for TP? It sounds leagues better then Ocarina Of Time/Majora's Mask.
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1039 on: March 04, 2010, 07:52:27 PM »
Zelda (the game) Needs MIDI music because of the awesome transitions its been using since WW.

Zelda (an officialy released soundtrack) could definately use some orchestrated music.

That is all.
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1040 on: March 05, 2010, 09:55:32 AM »
I don't understand why they need midi for the transitions. Couldn't they just record them with an orchestra?
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Offline mac<censored>

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1041 on: March 05, 2010, 10:48:07 AM »
I don't understand why they need midi for the transitions. Couldn't they just record them with an orchestra?

Because they aren't just simple transitions -- different attributes of the music are varied algorithmically, depending on what's happening in the game.

It would very hard to do this at all with pre-recorded music, much less do it well.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1042 on: March 05, 2010, 04:35:21 PM »
I don't understand why they need midi for the transitions. Couldn't they just record them with an orchestra?

Mario Galaxy made limited use of pre-recorded transitions, during the Bowser boss fights, for example.  The vocal layer would kick in the moment Bowser burned his ass.  This is just like hearing the music transition when you advanced through Mario 64's Jolly Roger Bay.  But in Galaxy's case, it means you're taking up more space (2x, sometimes 4x) having multiple layers of digital music streams that are nearly the same length for proper sync.  Mario Galaxy's music streams take up 700+ MB of the disc (DVD5).

More difficult and costly to achieve via pre-recorded streams on the same dynamic level you find in Zelda.
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1043 on: March 05, 2010, 05:28:36 PM »


But If they did it for-a me, surely they can do for-a Zelda!
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1044 on: March 06, 2010, 02:33:20 AM »
Just out of curiosity, was every single piece of music in Super Mario Galaxy orchestrated?

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1045 on: March 06, 2010, 02:50:24 AM »
Anyway, if you want a good comparison of quality listen to the latest Eurogamer podcast where they discuss third party performance on the Wii, much different level of quality than IGN's Gamescoop garbage.

Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1046 on: March 06, 2010, 02:52:28 AM »
Just out of curiosity, was every single piece of music in Super Mario Galaxy orchestrated?

No.  I can think of a few that aren't.  Like in the first stage where you collect the music notes and it makes a remix of level 1-2 from Mario 1.  Now that I think about it, hearing an orchestra perform the original level 1-2 song would be pretty interesting.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1047 on: March 06, 2010, 03:49:38 AM »
Just out of curiosity, was every single piece of music in Super Mario Galaxy orchestrated?

Nope, the majority of Galaxy's soundtrack was MIDI.  Galaxy had a total of 81 songs in it's soundtrack, but only 28 of these songs were done by an orchestra.  Not to mention out of the 28 songs that were done by an orchestra, some of them were rather short songs that were only used during certain cut-scenes.  Plus you have Rosalina's Observatory theme which has 3 different versions of it that play as the game progresses but since each song had to be composed separately, they're all considered a different song out of that 28.

So yeah, in the end Galaxy's soundtrack was no where close to being fully orchestrated.  Hell even some of the 28 orchestrated songs are a combination of MIDI/Orchestra.  This is another reason why people shouldn't use Galaxy's soundtrack as a reason to bash MIDI, when the majority of Galaxy's soundtrack is MIDI and several of it's orchestrated songs use MIDI in them as well.


Edit:

And before anyone asks me where I got my information from, like always, Iwata Ask

http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks_vol3_index.jsp

Quote
Iwata:  But even when you had decided to use an orchestra, you must not have been able to do the recording until the contents of the game were finalized.

Yokota:  Right! That was the toughest part! Especially seeing how Miyamoto-san is known to make changes at the very last minute!    

All:  (laughs)               

Yokota:  It really felt as if we were walking on a tightrope. We weren’t able to schedule the recording dates until Miyamoto-san gave us the green light. So we recorded all 28 tracks, constantly checking with him for each track, asking "Is this music okay for this stage?" so that we could be 100% sure that this music was really ready to use             

Iwata:  It must not have been easy to arrange all 28 tracks.                           

Yokota:  It was tough, but since I was the one that wanted to do this...   
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 03:59:47 AM by Luigi Dude »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1048 on: March 06, 2010, 05:13:30 AM »
Also, it was videogamey MIDI, but they weren't real-time MIDI; pre-recorded in-house music that the music staff was satisfied with.

All Metroid Prime games were also pre-made MIDI, while Toilet Princess still utilized in-game MIDI for many parts.
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Offline Peachylala

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #1049 on: March 07, 2010, 11:30:34 PM »
Even if the games are in MIDI, does it really matter? Nintendo has produced some of the best soundtracks ever. This type of media bitching it akin to some teenage girl bitching to her friends on Facebook about not losing ten pounds so she could fit into her prom dress.

To the female forum users, the gaming media is the male version.
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