Topic: Game Of Thrones -Spoiler Thread- Be Caught Up

[Stratos]

Crazy prediction: Jon kills Dany, Drogon burns him and Jon comes out buck naked and people bow because they realize he is the last true Targaryan. That or Drogon refuses to burn him because Dragons won't burn Targs or some weird show logic.

[Luigi Dude]

But I don't blame the showrunners like a lot of folks are doing, though they brought the mess on themselves by how they talked in the "behind the thrones" videos, as a lot of their statements about "we forgot..." and "I don't know, you figure it out" have just driven fans mad.

I'm sorry but the show writers deserve much of the blame.  Yes it sucks for them that they ran out of source material and George didn't help them by extremely bloating the plot in the last 2 books, but the last episode was just terrible from a writing standpoint.  Dany suddenly going Mad Queen even though the enemy army had surrendered and she had already won the fight is ridicules.  It's the same **** they pulled with Stannis where instead of actually showing a proper descent into madness that would cause them to become monsters, D&D literally have them become evil with a flip of the switch.

Actual good writers will find ways to take what they're given and have it make sense.  D&D have proven time and time again since Season 5 that all they care about is shock value and have no regard for even trying to be consistent.  Hopefully Disney fires them from the upcoming Star Wars trilogy because these 2 have proven time and time again they fail at even the most basic writing.  You have to make things actually feel earned and respect the character development you set up.  As Adrock just said, they actual were doing that with Jamie only to completely ruin it at the end.

It's like they want to be the next M Night Shyamalan, but are inspired by all his bad movies instead of the good ones.  All they care about is trying to shock the audience with a twist, instead of actually developing a decent story to go with it or make said twist actually make sense in the end.

[Stratos]

You make fair points, and there was a lot of room for them to do better. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on their upcoming Star Wars films (at least the first one) before I write them off as creators completely. Hopefully because they will be working from start to finish without a complex plot that cuts off 2/3rds of the way through they can put forth something better, but it means they get one shot in the first film to sell their series to me.

[broodwars]

There's just a lot of really shitty writing this season.

To expand, some characters are really inconsistent. For Jamie and Cersei to end up where they did, the writers threw out at least four seasons worth of development for both characters. They had vastly different character arcs. Cersei became more evil. Jamie became more heroic with the caveat of having to live with his evil deeds which is what gave him depth and made him such a compelling character as the series progressed. Leaving Brienne to stop Cersei would have been a fitting end. He doesn’t get a happy ending because he has to atone for helping create the monster Cersei became, right?

I felt like the writers wanted people to feel sympathy for Cersei, and I just couldn’t get there because her love for her children is literally her only positive character trait (that and her cheekbones). The writers set Jamie up over the course of whole seasons to kill Cersei or at least completely denounce just how evil she became. Becoming the Queenslayer and killing the one person he thought he never could felt like his entire arc. It was one of the things the writers still did well after passing the source material. The counter argument I’ve already seen is that Game of Thrones has been subverting fantasy tropes for its entire run. That doesn’t really fit here because it shouldn’t be subverting basic tenets of storytelling. They built a character up a certain way and swerved at the very last second.

I didn’t feel like Daenerys’ Mad Queen heel turn was necessarily earned though it isn’t as bad as Azula’s burst of psychosis at the end of Avatar: The Last Airbender. There were hints, but Daenerys didn’t quite get there. I felt like they could have used a few more episodes to really build that up.

Arya had plot armor and a convenient horse though I’ve read this may be Bran warging (personally doubt it). Euron never became more than a mustache twirling villain. Fighting Jamie had no real build up. Euron making back to shore at that exact spot and at that exact moment is a problem the writers had with convenience and time since leapfrogging the books. It seemed more to merely slow Jamie down which they didn’t really need because Pac-Man-ing around a maze of debris in The Red Keep slowed him down enough.

We finally got Cleganebowl. I would have preferred The Hound lived by merely pushing The Mountain into the fire below then escaping King’s Landing to be a fucking farmer or something. Killing his brother with fire is appropriate so I’m not finding fault in that choice. I just would have like to have seen Sandor live.

Prediction: Arya kills Daenerys by using someone else’s face. I’m trying to decide if it’s Jon Snow or Grey Worm. I suspect we’ll get a one on one between those two in the Finale. I’m also bad at predictions. 🤷‍♀️

Yeah, basically that. There's only so much I can type on a phone during a few minutes of a 15 minute break.

Honestly, I thought they were setting up Tyrion to become a "Queen-slayer", to give his character arc a bit of symmetry as he attempted to prevent needless deaths.

Apparently, I thought too hard.

[ThePerm]

I hear a lot of people complaining about the writing, but they don't seem to understand the series.

Ned Stark - hand of the king - he's the main character of the show - He's uncovered the truth between a ghastly mystery and he's going to tell the king: The King Dies, he's told the queen, a little bastard is now king and he gets beheaded.

Viserys Targaryen - Has arranged his meek sister Daenerys to marry Khal Drogo - Khal Drogo will lead an army for him in return and he will be king of the 7 kingdoms: He pisses of the Khal at a suaré and Khal pours molten gold on him.

Khal Drogo - Viserys is gone, but who says he can't rule the 7 kingdoms? he's going to be the great Stallion who Mounts the world that takes over the 7 kingdoms: He get's into a petty fight,  and get's infected, ultimately leading to his death.

Daenerys Targarian's child - Danny is now pregnant with the future King of the Khalasar, Khal Drogo is sick and probably going to die, so Danny goes to a witch in an effort to heal the Khal, but the trick is she loses the baby to save Khal, further Khal is still alive, but a vegetable. She smothers the Khal.

Robb Stark - fed up with the South's **** the North declares their own king, the King of the North is pissed the killed his dad Ned, He's going to take over the seven kingdoms, He gets some help from the Freys, one of the caveats is he has to marry one of the Frey's homely daughters, this doesn't work out, he just finds a hot chick and impregnates her, the Fray's murder the Stark's at the infamous Red Wedding. "The Lanisters send their regards"

Joffrey Baratheon - A little fucking **** who inherits the throne after his father is murdered, he's going to Marry and **** as many sexy bitches as he can, and he gets creepy with it, he gets poisoned.

Renly Baratheon- The Tyrell's and the Baratheons form an alliance and Renly becomes King, well at least on their side, He seems like he would be a lot better king the Joffrey: He get's kiled by a blood magic smoke monster.

Stannis Baratheon- reluctantly claiming to be the king, he's the best king around now that Robb is dead, he joins a new religion with the red lady, murders his brother with the aforementioned smoke monster, sends boats to Kings landing and they all get killed,  later desperate to be King Stannis sacrifices his own daughter to the lord of light for luck: he gets critically injured in a scuffle with the Boltons and sits down by a tree, who shows up? Brienne of Tarth who is still upset he killed her pal Renly. She beheads him.

Margery Tyrell - had been married to Renly and be queen, but then he got dead,  so she goes to get betrothed to Joffrey and become queen, she marries him, but then he get's poisoned, so she has to marry Tommy B, her bro gets kidnapped, some weird high sparrow cult stuff happens, she gets exploded by Cersei

Tommen Baratheon B- Tommy B gets to be king after big bro died, but Heavy hangs the Crown, **** gets real with Margery, so he gets to jumpin.

John Snow- In order to defend the realm from the Army of Darkness he befriends a bunch of north norseman, but he fucked a girl, and wildlings used to be an enemy: so he gets stabbed to death: but he gets Eastered

The Night King - Amasses a crazy powerful undead army: but Arya is sneaky as ****.

Cersie Lanister-  pulls **** all the time to stay in power, but every time her world comes crumbling down on her.

Danny - get's raped, her husband gets killed, her baby dies, most of her dragons get killed, her best friend get's killed,  she falls in love with a guy who turns out to be her nephew, now he won't bang her, her vizier betrays her, her father figure dies, her beloved nephew betrays her. Her vassals betray her.

Olenna warned Daenerys about what happened to her granddaughter, Margaery, saying that despite the people's love for her she was ultimately killed and that in order to maintain the loyalty of the masses, "Daenerys must be feared as well as loved"
During the meeting at Dragonstone to discuss marching full force on King’s Landing, Daenerys states that she does not want to be known as "Queen of the Ashes"

TLDR The way things are going the Brotherhood without Banners has a shot.

[BlackNMild2k1]

That was a lame episode. It's becoming increasingly obvious that the actual writers for this show aren't very good once they reached the limits of the source material.

I don't necessarily have a problem with where all the characters ended up so much as how they got there. Also, how did Dany have ANY Dothraki & Unsullied after the Battle of Winterfell, let ALONE enough to significantly challenge King's Landing? We SAW the Dothraki in particular get completely wiped out in the first WAVE of the attack, aside from a few stragglers who cane running back.

And yeah, after all the build-up with those ballistas, Dany just turns on her plot armor to roast them all uncontested. It's just watching Captain Marvel.

There's just a lot of really shitty writing this season.

I just finished last Sunday's episode, seen this post, and also ran across this article that lets you know you're not alone in how you feel about S8

Game of Thrones fans petition for HBO to remake season 8 following controversial episode
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a27475925/game-of-thrones-season-8-petition-remake/

[ThePerm]

the internet said Arya was a Mary Sue. The internet is a lazy spectator and doesn't pay close attention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTVKLbqmdc

She earned it, she went through hell to get where she is.

Danny was going to go mad queen. It was going to happen. I knew this would happen for 3-4 seasons. She got aroused every time she killed someone. She has a family history of insanity. She's Saddam Hussein level paranoid. Her entire family were inbred jackoffs on the cruel side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL-B76vX_pw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAWNTd9Wrvg

There is soooo much setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbmXIzxcZY

[Adrock]

I didn’t necessarily have a problem with Daenerys’ Mad Queen heel turn. The show spent a lot of time with her so she better have played a big role. As previously stated, more episodes that showed a slower descent into madness would have been preferred because the hints in earlier seasons could (and for me, did) play as cruel but generally fair justice even after the show passed the source material. Burning Randyll and Dickon Tarly, for example, for refusing to bend the knee was appropriate if excessive punishment. Also, the show did not paint Randyll in a positive light nor show Dickon enough to get sympathy from viewers so naturally, we’re led to side with Daenerys. If Daenerys is Game of Thrones’ final boss, the entirety of the final season should have been Westeros vs. Daenerys. The Night King should have been the penultimate boss.

Unlike Jamie and Cersei, Daenerys’ characterization in The Bells isn’t inconsistent. However, her mental state could have gone either way. I didn’t think the writers did enough for Daenerys to go full Mad Queen when she did. And because of that, I was really hoping she wouldn’t go Mad Queen.

[ThePerm]

I have problem with people saying it was out of character. I don't have a problem with people complaining about the pace though. Why cram everything into 6 episodes? On the other hand there is no filler.

One thing I would have improved would be making Cercei 2D the last two seasons. Her character is more complex than just a villainess, but then again you'd imagine the position she was in she was boxed in a corner with how she was supposed to act. They should have had her have like a lesbian love affair and drink a lot or something.

I didn’t necessarily have a problem with Daenerys’ Mad Queen heel turn....

I was really hoping she wouldn’t go Mad Queen.

and the frog, the fox, and the tortoise all wished the scorpion wouldn't sting them, but that is what scorpions do. They sting dragons too.

[Adrock]

Those aren’t contradictory statements. At least twice in this thread, I’ve mused about Daenerys was possibly being the final boss. That’s been around for years. The seeds were there; I was just hoping to be surprised with an appropriate twist. It’s like what I said about The Hound. His death was appropriate; I still would have rather he lived.

[ThePerm]

We just assume the Hound died.  He did come back after being left on a hill before. Lord of Light could revive him.
Anyone can come back at any point.  No one's ever really gone.

[Stratos]

Folks are convinced Jamie lived somehow too.

Yeah, it was always a clear possibility that Dany could go nuts, but most folks from what I can tell are bothered by how fast she turned versus the fact she did. the producers really should have done full seasons and probably stuck around for another one or two. So now things are rushed and it turns out some essential corners were cut earlier on and that helped box them into the corner with nothing to do bu force everything into its final position.

No one's ever really gone.

Whoa there, JJ, that's getting into crazy territory.

[ThePerm]

/s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNTLC_uiGFA&t=184s

[broodwars]

Well, that could have been worse.

Again, my issue with this last season isn't with where all the characters wound up, but how they got there. And we had all that build-up with the army of the dead and the Night King, and it was all resolved in a single episode halfway through the season so we could end on a completely different plot thread that didn't seem like it should really matter anymore.

[Stratos]

What a train wreck. The entire "trial" scene and the small council scene were cringe inducing. Even the music was hollow, copying old themes that had no business being used (why did the election of Bran warrant playing the reveal of Jon's parentage at the Tower of Joy?). Also the ending, showing each of the three Starks justi doing things was off and undeserved of the music that was playing. There was no good close out for the series.

[Adrock]

Ehh, it was fine. I was bracing myself for worse considering how seasons seven and eight went. Personally, I've only ever seen two good series finales: Breaking Bad and Futurama.

Everyone ended up in an appropriate place except maybe Bran. I didn't really buy the explanation for him being king or why he agreed to it due to being the Three-Eyed Raven. I thought he was going to **** off beyond the wall to that cave. Isn't Bran going to live hundreds, if not thousands of years? “Bran the Broken” is a really messed up thing to call someone too. “Here ye, here ye! In the name of the crippled king..........”

Tyrion also talked about breaking the wheel being Daenerys' goal which is why he nominated Bran but then there's a small council meeting and everything seems exactly the same as it was before Daenerys destroyed an entire city. What the **** were you talking about then? Also, a scene with King's Landing being rebuilt would have been useful there.

I didn't really understand how anyone would have found out that Jon killed Daenerys unless Jon just flat-out fucking told them. There were no witnesses yet Grey Worm knows how Daenerys was killed and who did it. Drogon breathed fire then fucked off with Daenerys. Was there any reason Jon couldn't have calmly walked out of there before anyone saw the blood on the ground? Did he insist on telling the Unsullied what he did? Is the implication that he was being honorable?

Also, I'm not really understanding why Jon was kept prisoner. He committed the highest treason (from Daenerys’ forces’ side). A bunch of murderers who have known nothing except murdering before their queen set them free to murder some more but as free men suddenly decide murder is not the answer regarding the man who killed their benefactor. Sure. Ignoring that, why would the Unsullied (and Dothraki?) agree to send Jon to the Night's Watch, a concept they don't understand, then just **** off... immediately? There's no reason for anyone who mattered in Westeros to keep their word. As an act of good faith? Jon just fucks off beyond the Wall anyway, and like, as soon as he gets there. Everyone just turns into the shrug emoji. What was all that **** about sentencing Jon to life in the Night's Watch where he holds no titles or lands etc. etc. being a compromise and there was no other way? Was lying the plan? Why did everyone play it off as serious? That's weird. Am I having a stroke? Did I just not understand this correctly?

Speaking of, is there any reason for the Night's Watch to still exist? Jon and Tyrion kind of address this. Is it just a penal colony now? Otherwise, there are no White Walkers or Wights, Westeros made peace with Wildlings, and there's a giant gaping hole in the Wall. Also, whose jurisdiction is the Night's Watch under? I presume Winterfell, and if so, I feel like Sansa would have just told Jon, "Yeah, you don't have to go up there. LOL."

I don't know why Arya stopped using people's faces. She spent an entire season learning how to wear other people's faces, used it twice when she returned to Westeros, then dusted off her hands and decided, "And a job well done! Guess I don't need to use this skill again for the rest of my life."

Ultimately, my main problem is the same problem I've had since the show passed the books: everything felt rushed which I feel is why I have so many lingering questions. The writers didn't bother and/or have time to explain some of these choices. The Night King should have been defeated in episode nine of season seven. Daenerys should have taken King's Landing halfway through season eight. Jon reluctantly following Daenerys before ultimately killing her needed more than what, half an hour? It was as if the writers didn't know how to do long-form storytelling without George R. R. Martin holding their hand.

[broodwars]

Also, I'm not really understanding why Jon was kept prisoner. He committed the highest treason. A bunch of murderers who have known nothing except murdering before their queen set them free to murder some more but as free men suddenly decide murder is not the answer regarding the man who killed their benefactor. Sure. Ignoring that, why would the Unsullied (and Dothraki?) agree to send Jon to the Night's Watch, a concept they don't understand, then just **** off... immediately? There's no reason for anyone who mattered in Westeros to keep their word. As an act of good faith? Jon just fucks off beyond the Wall anyway, and like, as soon as he gets there. Everyone just turns into the shrug emoji. What was all that **** about sentencing Jon to a life sentence in the Night's Watch where he holds no titles or lands etc. etc. being a compromise and there was no other way? Was lying the plan? Why did everyone play it off as serious? That's weird. Am I having a stroke? Did I just not understanding this correctly?

You know why they did that? Because they were ripping off the ending to the last Hunger Games book/movie, and that's what it did, too.

[ShyGuy]

Welp, MCU is over, Game of Thrones is over, what's next?

[Stratos]

I've changed my stance on D&D, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt for their upcoming Star Wars movies, but after watching the ending and learning all of the things they tossed aside or how they seemed to regard the actors and options, I'm not giving it to them. If the initial trailers wow me enough, I'll check it out, but not because it is being done by them. Also lost most of my interest in the prequels and spin offs for GoT.

I'm stepping away from all of that including the commentary on reddit, and after a while passes I'll restart the GoT books, probably around the time Winds of Winter comes out so I can read them all (I ain't holding out hope for the final book Dream of Spring releasing in Martin's lifetime).

[ThePerm]

A few questions that have been bandied about.

Why didn't the Danny's troops just kill Jon?

No Evidence, This would have pissed off the Unsullied, but by Dothraki rules John would be king. There were still Westeroisi loyal to John in the area. So, they were stalemated. Also, a bunch of slaves have no idea how to act when they don't have their liberator. I agree it would have been better if Jon just walked out like a smooth criminal. He should have said the Dragon killed her, but he isn't a liar.

Why does the night watch still exist?

Sometimes vestigial things last well past their time. Not exactly functional. I imagine with the peace between Westeros and the wildlings Westeros will just start expanding their scope. The north like Winterfell will become the middle.

I think the ending was where it needed to be, but they just didn't develop Bran. That is my only complaint. He just sort of got pushed aside in plotlines.

There is a lot of D&D hate being thrown out, but I would have no idea what Game of Thrones was unless these people existed. I think it's been a good run. A lot of shows end messily, but go watch Dexter. Worse ending ever.

[Adrock]

No Evidence, This would have pissed off the Unsullied, but by Dothraki rules John would be king. There were still Westeroisi loyal to John in the area. So, they were stalemated. Also, a bunch of slaves have no idea how to act when they don't have their liberator.

That’s the point. Without Daenerys, they would be expected to do what they were trained/raised to do. The problem here is that there would be no instance in which Jon is taken prisoner based on the show’s text. No evidence? Jon walks. Evidence and the Unsullied find Jon? Jon dead, son. Evidence and the Dothraki find Jon? Jon king/khal, son. There is no stalemate because neither the Unsullied nor Dothraki operate that way.

Personally, I kept expecting Jon to face a public execution by dragon fire because he disobeyed Daenerys or something except he’s a Targaryen so he can’t be burned by dragon fire. He got burned by regular ol’ run of the mill fire back in one of the earlier seasons so get around that with dragon fire. Anyway, when he doesn’t burn (and everyone sees his dick), that turns the public even more in Jon’s favor. After Daenerys is killed, he would have reluctantly ruled Westeros as like a stopgap king to rebuild King’s Landing before he fucks off beyond the wall. All the “I don’t want [the throne]” made it seem like he was going to end up there whether he wanted it or not which makes more sense than Bran with zero build up. That puts Jon in roughly the same place as a man who always put honor and duty before his own self-interests.

but he isn't a liar.

Jon’s entire arc in season two revolves around pretending to desert the Night’s Watch to join the Wildlings.

[Stratos]

Idea on how to rectify Jon not being executed upon confession, you could imagine that Arya had a sense of what Jon was doing when he told her to go wait outside King's Landing and he would be along shortly. She knew, and went to get Davos/Northmen, who then run up right when Jon confesses and they draw a stalemate agreeing to hold a trial/kings moot to come to an agreement. Unsullied know that a fight could kill them all and they don't get their "justice".

Agree, Jon should have become the reluctant king, because of how much he whined about how "Ah dun wannit, you're mah queen". Bran could have become his Hand, because what other role would befint the 3-eyed-raven?

Either that of Bran is secretly evil/possesed by the night king/merged with the old raven, and they do a sequel show where Sansa has to find Jon and Arya to help her stop Bran.

[ThePerm]

Here would be a better ending. Just re-arange the scenes a bit. John has his meeting with Danny in the throne room but doesn't kill her.  In this version Tyrion hasn't shown up yet. They walk out of the throne room to meet Tyrion. Tyrion smacks the **** out of Danny in front of everybody and then murders her with his hand pendant "You don't kill children!"

This causes an obvious uproar and leads to the execution of Tyrion. But he excepts his fate as a monster. "That's right I killed her! That little bitch killed hundreds of innocent children! She deserved it. " Maybe he picks up a dead child and displays it.

Jon becomes King, and Bran becomes his hand.

[BranDonk Kong]

I thought the ending was fine. The pacing was definitely an issue this season, but overall the story that was told was pretty good. The reason Jon was not executed is because there was no queen to decide his fate, the same reason Jaime Lannister wasn't executed, no? Jon never wanted to be king, so it's fitting that he isn't.

[ThePerm]

Also, I just wonder when Arya Warrior Princess comes out.